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Poll

Who would you choose?

George Bush
- 29 (17.3%)
John Kerry
- 71 (42.3%)
Ralph Nader
- 4 (2.4%)
I'm not a U.S. citizen but Bush
- 4 (2.4%)
Not a citizen but Kerry
- 45 (26.8%)
Not a citizen but Nader
- 5 (3%)
Other
- 5 (3%)
Undecided
- 5 (3%)

Total Members Voted: 163


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Author Topic: POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?  (Read 28671 times)

JimH

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POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« on: October 05, 2004, 09:13:02 am »

We've done this twice before, and now it's getting seriously close to the election, so let us know what you think.

(Thanks to TimB for suggesting we do a poll again.)

Thanks,

Jim

Previous polls are here:

July:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=22392;start=0

February:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=19461;start=0
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TimB

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2004, 10:07:52 am »

Thanks Jim.

I think we should amend the constitution to have these INTERACT polls be binding. :)

-=Tim=-
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hit_ny

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2004, 10:54:04 am »

As far as non-americans are concerned, the choice is obvious, anything but bush.

But there's no votes in liverpool or elsewhere for that matter.

Until the debate, i would have said Bush was gonna win, cos the media tend to support him or have not really questioned his policies as much. The sheeple are influenced by the media.

There's still a couple more debates left. Wonder if it will make a difference, i see Kerry doing well on topics like the economy which really has not been great. Bush's father lost re-election on those grounds even though he did well abroad. (First gulf war). The son has dbl whammy, bad economy as well as trouble abroad.

Looking forward to how well they spin this :)

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KingSparta

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2004, 11:29:05 am »

Quote
anything but bush
My Personality Does Not Like Change, And Since I Also Do Not Like to Take Pills.

If Kerry Was To Be Elected I Would

Go Crazy since every few mins he would change his mind on how he stands on matters of interest.

I would also need to take more Zoloft Putting More Money In The Hands Of The Greedy Drug Companies.

I would rather have Edwards than kerry at least he looks cute, he just needs to have that mole removed and he would get more votes.

I noticed Powel Has not really done any speaking for Bush, i wonder how he stands.

I Say No More "Michael Moore"



I think This Is The Only Game In Town:




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Bendra

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2004, 11:38:07 am »

Powell's not speaking for Bush is a clue...
Did you want to hear his opinion or something?  Is it because he was the only link to reality in the wholeadministration before he caved and "fell in" like a good soldier.  He can't wait to bolt.

We have no friends out there.  We aren't respected.  We have a world-class deficit.  Osama is out there.  Al Queda is now in Iraq.  

Hello?  

Down with  the clueless incompetent screwup who insulted the world and launched his own crusade.

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AoXoMoXoA

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2004, 12:06:01 pm »

I have only this to say regarding the election:

Ignore the press & the spin . . . . investigate as best you can the FACTS, see for yourself, THINK for yourself.  
Too many people buy into this stuff and simply regurgitate what they have heard said buy the media. Open your own eyes and make your own decision. Use your mind but follow your heart.
Then get out and VOTE, your vote could be the one to make the difference.
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JustinChase

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2004, 12:13:06 pm »

Quote
anything but bush
My Personality Does Not Like Change, And Since I Also Do Not Like to Take Pills.

If Kerry Was To Be Elected I Would

Go Crazy since every few mins he would change his mind on how he stands on matters of interest.

I would also need to take more Zoloft Putting More Money In The Hands Of The Greedy Drug Companies.

I would rather have Edwards than kerry at least he looks cute, he just needs to have that mole removed and he would get more votes.

I noticed Powel Has not really done any speaking for Bush, i wonder how he stands.

I Say No More "Michael Moore"








I have lost all respect...

A bigger, more incompetent idiot, we could not find, even with a reality show to help guide us.
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KingSparta

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2004, 12:24:48 pm »

Quote
I have lost all respect...

Dang.....
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JustinChase

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2004, 12:48:08 pm »

Quote
I have lost all respect...

Dang.....

Don't worry, it wasn't much.
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JimH

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2004, 12:51:24 pm »

He's a moderator.  They aren't entitled to any respect.

Disclaimer:  Opinions expressed by moderators are their own personal opinions, no matter how cockeyed they may seem.
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LonWar

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2004, 12:52:05 pm »

He's a moderator.  They aren't entitled to any respect.

ROFLMAO


Thanks Jim, I needed a laugh today.
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TimB

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2004, 01:47:17 pm »

Until the debate, i would have said Bush was gonna win, cos the media tend to support him or have not really questioned his policies as much. The sheeple are influenced by the media.

This is interesting as over here the media (with the exception of Murdoch's Fox News) is portrayed by conservatives as a tool of the left.

-=Tim=-
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salsbst1

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2004, 02:00:27 pm »

Other: John McCain.

If in a swing state, then I would vote for Kerry.

Heck, I wish I lived in a state at all (I'm from the District of Columbia, a small U.S. protectorate between Maryland and Virginia with no voting rights in Congress).
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salsbst1

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Re:POLL: My favorite for President of the U.S.A.
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2004, 02:05:16 pm »

..your vote could be the one to make the difference.
I wish!  I'm very pleased to see that Colorado may pass a referendum to allocate their electors in proportion with the popular vote in the state.  If all states would do so, it would go a *long* way to fixing our present mess.  Seems like a fairly easy referendum to pass: any independent voter in their right mind would vote for it.
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GHammer

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2004, 03:17:12 pm »

Anyone except the liar.

Oops! Eliminated all politicians.

Those who choose Kerry are simply getting someone who changed his position to get votes. Did it in the primaries, did it again recently.

Those who choose Nader are simply insane.

Those who choose Bush have no idea what he stands for as he has never said one thing definitive about his plans. Oh, wait, he did say that he will not leave Iraq.

I hope Bush wins, just for spite. Let the rest of the world settle in for 4 more years.

And, it would be kind cool.

Bush -1 term
Clinton- 2 terms
Bush- 2 terms
Clinton- 1 at least

You just know if Kerry loses Hillary will be there in 2008.
Just for the spectacle I'm pulling for that!

Otherwise, I wouldn't give you 8 RMB for the lot of candidates.
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KingSparta

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2004, 03:29:33 pm »

Quote
ROFLMAO


Thanks Jim, I needed a laugh today.


Ditto

I do like to get people foaming at the mouth, it's better than watching TV

(However CSI & CSI Miami Is a must watch)
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Monkeyboy

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2004, 04:26:30 pm »

Just having a look at the Guardian and this article is on the front page.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1319718,00.html

I just hope (whoever gets in the US), our priminister starts doing some thinking for himself.

Rich (UK)
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JimH

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2004, 04:27:30 pm »

Please try to keep the arguments confined to politics.

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Alex B

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2004, 08:07:22 pm »

Would you vote this lady if she was a candidate?



I would.  ;)



She is one of the most brilliant (and also modest) politicians I know. We are lucky in Finland to have her. Though the president institution in Finland is becoming a bit more ceremonial nowadays. Our government has the real power and parliament elections are more important than presidential.

Images courtesy of: http://www.presidentti.fi/english/
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aRCLiGHT

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2004, 10:55:00 pm »

It is extremely interesting to see people replies.  You see the uninformed vote for Kerry and make harsh statements about Bush.  Is he perfect?  Nope!  Is he the best president we have ever had?  Nope!  Is he more trustworthy and honest then Kerry?  ABSOLUTELY!!!

Bush may not be perfect, but he states his beliefs and what is best for this country and then takes action.  I have a running list right now of over 40 times that Kerry has said one thing and then days, weeks, or months later completely invalidated his first position or statement.  Yeah, that is the guy we want running this country.  NOT!!!  ?

One more thought, as I could go on for another hour, they support Pro-Choice and abortion.  I personally believe that abortion is a sin.  If you don't want to have a kid, STOP HAVING SEX!!!  If you decide to have sex, there is a chance you will have a kid.  Simple!  And, aren't you glad that your parents believed in Pro-Life?  If  they didn't, you might not be here now reading my post...  Thought provoking, huh???  :o


aRCLiGHT
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GHammer

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2004, 11:51:37 pm »

And, aren't you glad that your parents believed in Pro-Life?  If  they didn't, you might not be here now reading my post...  
aRCLiGHT
I didn't ask to be born and will be glad when the whole thing is done.

Guess you assumed everyone is quite pleased to exist, eh?
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Matt

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2004, 12:01:44 am »

For those that support Bush on moral grounds: how do you reconcile that morality with waging war?

The gestalt of most moral philosophies (religious or otherwise) revolves around compassion and forgiveness.  This seems antithetic to waging war.
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Luigi1943

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2004, 01:08:00 am »

I'm so happy this morning, reading that such a majority of music lovers hate war!
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JaredH

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2004, 01:11:08 am »

Many of us who support Bush on moral grounds, do not support the war effort. However none of us really know enough information about what is going on about the war to make a intelligent statement about the why's, what's, and how's of what is going on. The only ones that do know are the ones that are caught in it, and they too are already biased due to political and social reeducation that has happened since we put the man in power about 5 or 6 presedential terms ago. None of us really know, and to make a statement about why we think it should or shouldnt be happening, is uneducated, at best and bordering on retarded at worst.

I support bush for moral reasons. I am opposed to war without cause. I would have been a protestor during the vietnam war. Im not a traitor to my country. I support the right, and occasionally the left. Im neither Rep. or Dem. though I lean more towards what some would call the "Christian Right" however, I dont always agree with them either.

I think its foolish for any of us to make generilzed statements about general groups in general politics about people we really dont know and only have information that comes from the media and the internet.

When it comes down to it, when we vote, were only voting based on what weve been told which, 99.9% of which, is biased depending on the side the media or website or publication leans to.  If we dont know the man, that is to say, if we havent spent time around the person, then we really have no business voting. About the only people qualified to vote for the people we are given the choice to vote for, are their immediate family and their closes friends cuz they truly know whether the person could lead the country or not.

Of course, that is all ideal, and this is not an ideal world. I just get a bit worn by the comments and arguments and statements made about people that none of us really know, or will ever know.

I too am however anti Michael Moore. The man brings up some good points, I'll give him that. But all he does is present the point, exacerbate the problem, pour some salt on it, kick it around a bit, gives resucitation, and then beats it down again. Those kinds of people are the kind that will always find something to rant about. Will always point out the festering boil that everyone can already can see and then bury the medication so no one can find it. If President Bush goes away, then Moore will find another republican to rant about. If Moore had his way, the entire government would be flaming liberals, and then, oh no, he would be out of a job. So he's always going to be picking at the scab of politics, he'll never let it heal, and will try his best to make sure there are as many flys around to feast on his handiwork as well. If he really wanted to make a difference, instead of joining the rest of the world and ranting and complaining, why not offer some solutions. Everyone wants to complain and point out the problems, but no one ever wants to offer solutions.
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hit_ny

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2004, 01:12:25 am »

For those that support Bush on moral grounds: how do you reconcile that morality with waging war?

The gestalt of most moral philosophies (religious or otherwise) revolves around compassion and forgiveness.  This seems antithetic to waging war.

i tried to figure out why they went to war and then read this.

"the invasion of Iraq was neither about weapons of mass destruction nor about democratisation and oil. "

"It is, and always was, a war about re-making first Iraq, then the Middle East, into a zone of compliance with U.S. interests" and more generally about demonstrating the U.S. will and power to reshape the world in the 21st century in its own interest and on its own terms, forcibly if necessary."

He referred to the scenario building for "World War IV" and said the proponents of the invasion were not disheartened by the turn of events and instead were "enthused by the prospect of wider and deeper conflict in Iraq and in the region." Their purpose was "nothing less than breaking or taming the Arab-Islamic world" and America "has the stomach to impose a new political culture on the defeated parties."

Moulay Hashid, brother of the King of Morocco giving a speech at Wharton school of business, Sept 28
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paulr

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2004, 01:31:27 am »

To all of you that are trying to figure out why we went to war with Iraq, and to those that support the current administration, all you have to do is take a look at the "Project for the New American Century" website.  Just about any page there will do, but this one in particular:

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

It's a letter to President Clinton written in 1998.  Read the text of the letter and make note of the signatures at the bottom...   Now do some thinking.

On another note...  The only reason people believe, and accuse, Kerry of flip-flopping, and not Bush, is that the media has done a *horrible* job of fact checking.  For every Kerry flip-flop, there are at least one Bush flip-flop (probably two).
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salsbst1

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2004, 06:41:16 am »

On morality: I just wonder what makes people want to foist their version of morality upon others.

P.S.  I thought Edwards was terrible last night.  Really blew it.
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JimH

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2004, 07:07:26 am »

On morality: I just wonder what makes people want to foist their version of morality upon others.
Amen.
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TimB

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2004, 07:49:56 am »

On morality: I just wonder what makes people want to foist their version of morality upon others.

While I'm sure I agree with your political position I find this argument hard to present.  We foist our versions of morality on people ALL THE TIME.  THE US  Constitution and laws are based on our versions of morality.

-=Tim=-
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GHammer

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2004, 07:50:50 am »

For those that support Bush on moral grounds: how do you reconcile that morality with waging war?

The gestalt of most moral philosophies (religious or otherwise) revolves around compassion and forgiveness.  This seems antithetic to waging war.

Does the existence of less than moral reasons mean the moral reasons are irrelevant and the war itself is immoral?

Religious philsophies are many, but the US is still a mainly Christian country. Let's see, what does the Bible say about war?

The Bible explains that the objective of war is nothing less than decisive defeat of the enemy. Annihilation of the enemy is the only way to assure peace! Capturing towns or villages does not win wars. You must decimate the enemy ranks!

"Come behold the works of te Lord [war], what desolations he hath made in the earth. He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire. (Psa. 46:8,9)

The Sennacherib invasion of Judah is the backdrop for this passage. Jesus has slaughtered the enemy and brought an end to the war, as found in Isaiah 37:36, 37, and 2 Kings 19:35. Christ gave the word and 185,000 Assyrian soldiers were destroyed. "He maketh wars to cease." How? Wars end when the enemy is defeated, decisively.

More examples can be found in Gen. 15:14, 16, Lev. 18:25, 1 Kings 21:26, and Amos 2:9. 1 Chronicles 5:22 tells us "For there fell down many slain, because the war was of God." The war was God's will and the enemy was killed!

But a larger question arises. When is war justified?

It isn't a very moral position to object to war waged without the benefit of international support. Why? Because there isn't anything particularly moral about an international body either sanctioning or objecting to a war. International bodies have no firmer lock on what qualifies as a just war than the deliberating bodies of individual nations.

If we allow that a war may be just, then it is very easy to imagine a particular war which would be moral to pursue, but which international bodies condemn for unrelated reasons. After all, those international bodies are made up from representatives from different states, all of which have their own national interests. A majority of those states could readily reject a war which would cause them economic problems or even sanction a war which serves their economic needs.

It really isn't credible that a confluence of interests from various nations would be able to transform an immoral war into a moral one, or a moral war into an immoral one. As a consequence, the morality of a war simply cannot be judged on how many different nations support it or whether any international bodies sanction it.

I conclude that the war is moral based upon removing Saddam alone. Bad judgement, bad execution, but wholly seperate from the question of morality.
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LonWar

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2004, 07:55:05 am »

Ferinhight 9/11 By Michael Moore was just released onto DVD yesturday.

Has this movie changed anyones decision about who they are voting for?
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TimB

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2004, 08:01:12 am »

For those that support Bush on moral grounds: how do you reconcile that morality with waging war?

The gestalt of most moral philosophies (religious or otherwise) revolves around compassion and forgiveness.  This seems antithetic to waging war.

Does the existence of less than moral reasons mean the moral reasons are irrelevant and the war itself is immoral?

Religious philsophies are many, but the US is still a mainly Christian country. Let's see, what does the Bible say about war?

The Bible explains that the objective of war is nothing less than decisive defeat of the enemy. Annihilation of the enemy is the only way to assure peace! Capturing towns or villages does not win wars. You must decimate the enemy ranks!

Great presentation! :)

However not all Christians accept the OT as either (a) the word of God or (b) factually correct.  I certainly would NOT accept that W has God on his side.  If you do accept the OT as written then surely Iraq would have been quickly swept away if God was on "our" side.

Too many bad wars have been fought with "us" as the righteous.

-=Tim=-
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salsbst1

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2004, 08:18:10 am »

I agree that we've been hung up for all this time on morality.  That doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

I'd rather that we focus on the protection of people's rights to live long and prosper in the way they see fit.  

Sometimes rights are in conflict with each other and we must make judgements as to which right is paramount.  

But when one's exercise of rights does nothing to harm anyone else, then it would seem obvious that that is ok, except for the urge that some have to foist their morality on other people.
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TimB

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2004, 08:26:18 am »

On morality: I just wonder what makes people want to foist their version of morality upon others.

While I'm sure I agree with your political position I find this argument hard to present.  We foist our versions of morality on people ALL THE TIME.  THE US  Constitution and laws are based on our versions of morality.

-=Tim=-
I'd rather that we focus on the protection of people's rights to live long and prosper in the way they see fit.  

Sometimes rights are in conflict with each other and we must make judgements as to which right is paramount.  

But when one's exercise of rights does nothing to harm anyone else, then it would seem obvious that that is ok, except for the urge that some have to foist their morality on other people.

TOTALLY agree! :)

Lets make our country an safe place to live in before we start "converting the heathens" to our religion or our concepts of government.

-=Tim=-
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JaredH

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2004, 08:38:26 am »

Well done GHammer!

War is not unbiblical, nor is it amoral. War without due cause, is however, amoral.

Morality is not something that is relative. It is at the center of everything we do.

ex.

You say you have no morality. That its ok to kill whomever whenever you want. Ok. I kill your mother. Immediately you take up arms to kill me. Now. Hit the brakes. Didnt you just say its ok to kill whomever whenever? If so, then why are you coming after me if its ok?. You steal my car and think its ok. I steal your wallet and you get pissed. There's a natural law of human nature that we all bow to and respect, whether we believe it or not. A highly suggested reading would be C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity. Even if you're not Christian, its an eye opener.

To say morality is not an issue when voting for government officials is like saying that it doesnt matter that the guy your asking to handle your finances is a heroin addict. I wouldn't want a president who has a history of cheating on his wife as the president of my country simply because he has fidelity issues. I wouldn't want a single president who sleeps around either because he has commitment problems. Our morality drives our decisions.
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elpaolo

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The Debate.
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2004, 08:38:34 am »

After watching the debate last night, I posted this on my weblog (marcoe.net).  Feel free to comment there or here on the MC board.  What's YOUR take on the debate?  (Maybe this is an entirely new discussion thread, JimH?)

Good Defense Wins.

The Twinkies won this evening due in part to their stellar defensive efforts. Defense, that active, engaging response to an offensive, is oftentimes the difference between winning and losing. Our living room of onlookers spent the better part of the evening switching between both the baseball game and the Vice Presidential debate being held in Cleveland. I had expected better from Cheney. Though two minutes of his debating is easily more meaty then 90 minutes of Bush's--like comparing a Thanksgiving turkey to an itsy-bitsy chicken wing--the attitude is much the same; both Bush and Cheney, I would suggest, project a care-free, we-have-nothing-to-prove attitude that's condescending not only to their immediate opponents, Kerry and Edwards, but also to the discerning public.

The undecided population can be swayed in a number of ways. I'm sure the snearing and smirking so common to the Republican body language repertoire appeals to some on the fence. Why, I couldn't tell you. Where are the answers? Where are the well reasoned rebuttals? The evidence? Where is the Republican Defense?

Any athlete knows defense is an on-your-toes affair--be ready for anything the opponent might throw at you. Repitiion of posture merely breeds predicability and, more importantly, easy pickins for the offense. Worse yet--stand still and the battle is already lost.

Why is it, then, that both Cheney and Bush feel they can respond to their opponents with blatantly unengaging hogwash like, "the record speaks for itself." If the record were so self-evident and convincing, would there be a need for debate? Would the country be so divided, as Edwards suggested? Time and time again, this evening, I felt like Edwards hit the ball right at Cheney, only for him to stand still, not evening raising his glove.

Edwards and Kerry are repetitive in their own right. Edwards' embarked on the majority of his answers with speak of a "plan." More often than not, however, he elaborated. A plan is something that can be developed--nearly like a thesis, I would say. "Good people working hard" (paraphrased, mind you) and self-evident record speak is more rally call and unproven, unsubstantiated fact (respectively) than reason, valid point or evidence of why the American People should reelect BushandCheney.

I like listening. I like two sides to an issue...two convincing, solid sides. Controversey is entertaining, no? I had hoped Cheney would turn the tables tonight, at least making the race a bit more interesting and making everyone think a little more than they generally like to. Rather, the debate seemed to prove that, although Cheney invariably has more experience and argumentative ability, he still lacks respect for his adversaries; more importantly, he needs to have respect for Kerry and Edwards if him and Bush are going to stop the slide in the polls that seems to be taking place. Not simply the Kerry-served-and-he's-patriotric respect, but the I'll-engage-your-discussion-and-concerns respect. That, as opposed to the I'm-not-going-to-answer-the-moderator's-question-and-instead-diss-you approach.

Lastly, just as a note, did anyone notice the insensitive response Cheney gave to Edwards' claim that 90% of the casualties in Iraq were Americans? That's just "dead wrong," he said. No pun intended, I'm guessing. My turn to *smirk* and *snear*.

Needless to say, the Twins game saw a little more time on the television screen than did the stage in Cleveland.
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GHammer

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2004, 08:44:11 am »

For those that support Bush on moral grounds: how do you reconcile that morality with waging war?

The gestalt of most moral philosophies (religious or otherwise) revolves around compassion and forgiveness.  This seems antithetic to waging war.

Does the existence of less than moral reasons mean the moral reasons are irrelevant and the war itself is immoral?

Religious philsophies are many, but the US is still a mainly Christian country. Let's see, what does the Bible say about war?

The Bible explains that the objective of war is nothing less than decisive defeat of the enemy. Annihilation of the enemy is the only way to assure peace! Capturing towns or villages does not win wars. You must decimate the enemy ranks!

Great presentation! :)

However not all Christians accept the OT as either (a) the word of God or (b) factually correct.  I certainly would NOT accept that W has God on his side.  If you do accept the OT as written then surely Iraq would have been quickly swept away if God was on "our" side.

Too many bad wars have been fought with "us" as the righteous.

-=Tim=-
Yeah, yeah. Funny, I didn't say that 100% of anyone agrees with anything. I said that is what is in the Bible. Which I still think is the source of Christian beliefs.

For your next point, Iraq was swept away quickly. If you mean that there are still some people shooting/bombing, what of it? Iraq has a new govenrment installed via a military win. So then God does like the US according to your logic.

Finally, then you would be in favor of Hitler, Ho, Stalin, Mao, and Milosevic? Or do you have other examples of 'bad' wars?
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Matt

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2004, 08:52:56 am »

I agree that we've been hung up for all this time on morality.  That doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

I'd rather that we focus on the protection of people's rights to live long and prosper in the way they see fit.  

Sometimes rights are in conflict with each other and we must make judgements as to which right is paramount.  

But when one's exercise of rights does nothing to harm anyone else, then it would seem obvious that that is ok, except for the urge that some have to foist their morality on other people.

It's a semantic debate.  Morality isn't about religion or prejudice -- it's the value system you use to make decisions.  Valuing personal rights and freedom is one version of morality. (which I agree with)
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GHammer

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2004, 09:20:04 am »

I agree that we've been hung up for all this time on morality.  That doesn't mean I'm happy about it.

I'd rather that we focus on the protection of people's rights to live long and prosper in the way they see fit.  

Sometimes rights are in conflict with each other and we must make judgements as to which right is paramount.  

But when one's exercise of rights does nothing to harm anyone else, then it would seem obvious that that is ok, except for the urge that some have to foist their morality on other people.

It's a semantic debate.  Morality isn't about religion or prejudice -- it's the value system you use to make decisions.  Valuing personal rights and freedom is one version of morality. (which I agree with)
Well, I'll disagree. But we're in good company, the list of those who have tried to define morality is a long one. Just of the top of my head it's been written about and 'defined' by Lao-tse, Confucius, the Buddha, and Zarathustra, by Amos and Isaiah, by Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, by Epicurus and the Stoics, by Jesus and Paul, by the thinkers of the Renaissance, of the "Aufklarung," and of Rationalism, by Locke, Shaftesbury, and Hume, by Spinoza and Kant, by Fichte and Hegel, by Schopenhauer, and Nietzsche. I KNOW I missed others, but you get the idea.

I'm not much for the 'relativistic' crowd. There's right, there's wrong. Doesn't much matter about country or culture. Mankind has found, over the centuries that certain rules of action best tend to promote the long-run happiness of both the individual and society. These rules of action have come to be called moral rules. Therefore, assuming that one seeks one's long-run happiness, these are the rules one ought to follow.
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GHammer

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2004, 09:31:48 am »

Final from me on morality of war.

Can someone explain to me why if I put on a certain costume and you put on different but prescribed clothes it is suddenly ok for me to kill you on orders from my superiors?

Why it is that a pilot who bombs and kills friendly troops will be investigated and if careless, punished yet a pilot who causes 'collateral casualties' is just doing his job?

Can anyone explain why, if international courts and sanctions work, we need war at all? If these bodies work, why not just go arrest the leaders of "bad" nations and have a trial? Sure save a lot of wear and tear on the populations of "bad" nations.

Could someone explain just when is a 'final chance' to avoid war? Surely there is always another meeting, negotiation, sanction, etc that could be tried. It seems to me that to be 'moral' you need to exhaust all other means. But where do you draw the line? Or is there a line at all?

Personally, I think there is little 'moral' about war. But I also think that it does not make one immoral to declare war or to fight one.
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salsbst1

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2004, 09:37:37 am »

Final from me on morality of war.

Can someone explain to me why if I put on a certain costume and you put on different but prescribed clothes it is suddenly ok for me to kill you on orders from my superiors?

Why it is that a pilot who bombs and kills friendly troops will be investigated and if careless, punished yet a pilot who causes 'collateral casualties' is just doing his job?

Can anyone explain why, if international courts and sanctions work, we need war at all? If these bodies work, why not just go arrest the leaders of "bad" nations and have a trial? Sure save a lot of wear and tear on the populations of "bad" nations.

Could someone explain just when is a 'final chance' to avoid war? Surely there is always another meeting, negotiation, sanction, etc that could be tried. It seems to me that to be 'moral' you need to exhaust all other means. But where do you draw the line? Or is there a line at all?

Personally, I think there is little 'moral' about war. But I also think that it does not make one immoral to declare war or to fight one.

Grey areas are what drove me to study economics and computer science. :)
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JustinChase

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2004, 10:21:43 am »

Well, I'm still not sure the choice comes down to morality.  It certainly plays a part, no doubt, but my problem with our current 'leadership' (almost exactly the worst word I could use to describe Bush and his cronies), is that they all feel holier than thou, that they know what's best for the country, and they are gonna do it, no matter what anyone else thinks, expecially our old allies.

It seems to me, from my reading of non-american news, that pretty much everyone in the world now sees us as a nation that will look out for number one (the incredibly rich - who don't need any more money) no matter what agreements we have signed.  Geneva convention?  Not if we don't feel like it.  United Nations?  We know better than them.  Allies don't agree?  Who needs 'em.

Then once we topple the regime, we don't rebuild it, we just leave a void in peoples lives.  Total uncertainty.  No electricity, no security, no government, no infrastructure, no hope.  We drop bombs and kill innocent people (accidentally, but still dead). Well, I can't think of a better breeding ground of hate for the US.  We act like a bunch of arrogant a**holes, and then wonder why people hate us so much.

This is the reason I think we need a change of leadership.  The current regime has no consideration of Americans.  They use America and Americans as their reasons for doing all these things, but their real reasons are obviously money.  Greenbacks.  Cash.  Moolah.  Cha-ching.  Bushs' administration has spent what?  $7 trillion in under 4 years.  Sorry, $7 trillion more than they brought in.  That's about 25 grand for everyone, even your kids owe 25 grand, each!

Leaders in America have a constitutional obligation to "represent the people", instead they "will kill for cash"

The best definition of insanity I've heard (as have you) is 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.'

A vote for Bush tells them that you like what they are doing, and they will keep doing it.  They you can watch America lose more respect, more allies, and spend more money they don't have.

I can't imagine a worse plan.  They have proved their total imcompetence, on so many levels.  A mistake was made in electing Bush (well at least in letting him steal the election), and now it's time to fix it.

Do I think Kerry is the 'best man for the job'?  No, but he's certainly the better of the 2 choices.
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TimB

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2004, 10:48:00 am »

BTW, just to clarify there was no sarcasm intended my my "Great presentation" comment.  I didn't agree with your points but it was well put together IMHO.  I know that message boards don't always convey emotion well. :)

For those that support Bush on moral grounds: how do you reconcile that morality with waging war?

The gestalt of most moral philosophies (religious or otherwise) revolves around compassion and forgiveness.  This seems antithetic to waging war.

Does the existence of less than moral reasons mean the moral reasons are irrelevant and the war itself is immoral?

Religious philsophies are many, but the US is still a mainly Christian country. Let's see, what does the Bible say about war?

The Bible explains that the objective of war is nothing less than decisive defeat of the enemy. Annihilation of the enemy is the only way to assure peace! Capturing towns or villages does not win wars. You must decimate the enemy ranks!

Great presentation! :)

However not all Christians accept the OT as either (a) the word of God or (b) factually correct.  I certainly would NOT accept that W has God on his side.  If you do accept the OT as written then surely Iraq would have been quickly swept away if God was on "our" side.

Too many bad wars have been fought with "us" as the righteous.

-=Tim=-
Yeah, yeah. Funny, I didn't say that 100% of anyone agrees with anything. I said that is what is in the Bible. Which I still think is the source of Christian beliefs.

But YOUR reading isn't the source of my (or many other Christians) beliefs.

Quote

For your next point, Iraq was swept away quickly. If you mean that there are still some people shooting/bombing, what of it? Iraq has a new govenrment installed via a military win. So then God does like the US according to your logic.

For me if our soldiers are dying over there in the large numbers that they are, we're still at war.  Of course as said above a lot of OT battles end with everyone on the losing side, including the innocents, being killed and I certainly wouldn't sanction that.

Quote

Finally, then you would be in favor of Hitler, Ho, Stalin, Mao, and Milosevic? Or do you have other examples of 'bad' wars?

We could start with the crusades and work on from there.

-=Tim=-
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JimH

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2004, 10:53:47 am »

I think it's interesting that Christian religious beliefs are so tangled up in the politics of a country that is nominally committed to _freedom_ of religion.

Your Christian beliefs have no place in our politics ... but there they are.  This would be amusing if it didn't have such deadly consequences.
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TimB

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2004, 11:02:25 am »

I think it's interesting that Christian religious beliefs are so tangled up in the politics of a country that is nominally committed to _freedom_ of religion.

Your Christian beliefs have no place in our politics ... but there they are.  This would be amusing if it didn't have such deadly consequences.

Jim, hopefully this isn't aimed at me as I agree with what you're saying. :)

-=Tim=-
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Matt

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2004, 11:28:23 am »

Quote
Your Christian beliefs have no place in our politics ... but there they are.

Democracy is based on the idea of electing people to represent your beliefs.

A free society must allow people to derive their beliefs from many sources -- whether that be common sense, religion, or a talking cat.
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JimH

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2004, 11:44:53 am »

No question, Matt, but we now have a Christian government, not a secular government.  That's unconstitutional.  

It's also dangerous.  Civil liberties become secondary to beliefs.

I'd rather have a flip flopper as President than someone who has an undying devotion to his beliefs.
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salsbst1

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2004, 11:51:08 am »

Quote
Your Christian beliefs have no place in our politics ... but there they are.

Democracy is based on the idea of electing people to represent your beliefs.

A free society must allow people to derive their beliefs from many sources -- whether that be common sense, religion, or a talking cat.
And I would say that we should elect people to represent our idea of good public policy, rather than our beliefs -- my beliefs belong in a sacred place, and government is far from sacred.

To which you would respond that one cannot separate one's beliefs from his idea of good public policy.

To which I would concede your point.  

It's difficult to argue with a reductionist, and Matt you are first class.  Not only do you take away useless options from the MC options page, but you take away so many layers of semantics that it becomes impossible and/or fruitless to argue with you. :)
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JimH

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2004, 12:09:06 pm »

Let's see.... religion, politics .... what was the other thing we wanted to talk about?

I must be getting old.

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Matt

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Re:POLL: Your choice for President of the U.S.A.?
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2004, 12:16:04 pm »

It's also dangerous.  Civil liberties become secondary to beliefs.

I'd rather have a flip flopper as President than someone who has an undying devotion to his beliefs.

Agreed.

I'd only add that devotion can be respectable -- even if it's undying or religious. Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and Peace Pilgrim are all examples.
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