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[Rands]

This morning I wanted to transfer some files to my iPod using 11.0.149.  I selected the files, dragged and dropped them.  I brought up the iPod file list and tried to make it show only queued files.  MC crashed.  After restarting it, I dragged the files over to be transferred again.  I brought up the iPod file list and this time it showed me what appeared to be several hundred empty files (just rows and rows of the 'can't be found' icon with no tag information at all).  I tried to clear those 'empty' files out by deleting them from the transfer list.  It asks me the usual question and I tell it I want to just remove the files from the Library.  It gave me a 'can't be deleted' error (or something similar) for each one.  I held down the return key to quickly get through the 100+ error messages.  After this is done, I go back to the files I want to transfer and, lo and behold, they're gone.  I go to the directories via DOpus (my explorer.exe replacement program) and, yep, the files have been deleted from the hard drive.  I check the Recycle Bin.  Nope, no luck, they're gone. 

Now, what pisses me off is that those directories were marked Read Only.  This is a habit I've gotten into doing since MC will just gleefully overwrite tags on files when I don't want it to (e.g., I've recently made changes to the database tags of a bunch of files but I only want one of the files to actually take the changes into the MP3 file;  as soon as I flip that switch to allow MC to write to MP3 files, it writes to all of them, ruining the others).  I'm really, really bloody curious as to how MC managed to delete Read Only files.  I'm also really, really bloody curious as to why deleting files from a handheld transfer queue also deletes them from the drive. 

I don't care about most of the files because I can just re-rip them from the original CDs.  But a handful of them were recordings from an Internet radio stream that I can't get again.  And now they're lost permanently.  Of course, I know I'm using Beta software but that doesn't make me not upset when I lose something I can't get back.  On the bright side, I've been using MC in one beta form or another for a long time now and this is only the second time I've ever encountered a serious problem such as this.  But now I'm paranoid as hell about using my iPod with MC.  Or even deleting anything from the Library.  Or moving the window around too fast on the screen.  Or breathing heavily.  Or...

I also want to add that doing stuff like clicking on an artist directory in the iPod and then clicking on the iPod tree root will crash MC just about every time.  I am unplugging my iPod and backing away slowly.

[Matt]

First off, please relax -- MC 11 is in alpha, and we do our best to warn you there could be speed bumps.

Secondly, can you try to reproduce this using some temp files, so we have a step-by-step?

Thanks Rands.

[Rands]

First off, please relax -- MC 11 is in alpha, and we do our best to warn you there could be speed bumps.

I know, which is why I had written, 'Of course, I know I'm using Beta [technically, Alpha] software...'  I know I'm taking a risk but it doesn't stop the frustration when it does come around to bite.

Secondly, can you try to reproduce this using some temp files, so we have a step-by-step?

I did repro it on the spot.  I'll do it again when I get home from work, though, just to be absolutely certain.  The one thing I am certain of is that MC does crash if you click around the iPod's tree and then click on the iPod root.  That happened each time.

[JimH]

There are a lot of ways that files can get deleted (any kind of hardware or OS failure during a write, for example), but we'll take a close look at this to see if MC may be at fault.  Any detail you can provide will be appreciated.  Step by step details on how to re-produce.

[JimH]

jbholz,
Your post and the answers got moved to a new thread here:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=25117.0

I accidentally removed the part that said you had a similar problem.

[SteveG]

Rands,

I brought up the iPod file list and tried to make it show only queued files.  MC crashed.

I cannot duplicate this.

I brought up the iPod file list and this time it showed me what appeared to be several hundred empty files (just rows and rows of the 'can't be found' icon with no tag information at all)......

Where did these files physically exist? Did you originally import them into MC from your iPod? If the files physically existed on your PC, then there is not a way for the files to be deleted when viewing them on the iPod.  I do not know of a way for MC to delete files from a 'Read Only' directory. 

I'm also really, really bloody curious as to why deleting files from a handheld transfer queue also deletes them from the drive.

This is unexplainable and not reproduceable by me.

The one thing I am certain of is that MC does crash if you click around the iPod's tree and then click on the iPod root.

I cannot duplicate this immediately. Will test further.

Steve

[modelmaker]

Backup, backup, backup!

I lost 30gigs of tunes a while ago due to HD failure (not MC's fault), half of which were paid-for downloads. That was all the lesson I needed to buy a second HD to duplicate my library (and since then a third HD). The cost was negligible considering what it cost me to replace what I lost in unrecoverable music, time and money.

[Rands]

Where did these files physically exist? Did you originally import them into MC from your iPod? If the files physically existed on your PC, then there is not a way for the files to be deleted when viewing them on the iPod.  I do not know of a way for MC to delete files from a 'Read Only' directory. 

They were in several directories on a local hard drive and had never been moved to the iPod before this morning.  If I was a computer neophyte, I'd be berating myself for just making a dumb user mistake but that isn't the case.  The only program I was running at the time that would've touched that directory was MC (I don't use any third party tagging programs or alternative audio players).  I'm also certain that it was MC because there were a couple of text files in there (.m3u and a .txt file with track info) that did not get deleted.  When I looked at them after the deletion occurred, they were still marked Read Only, as was the directory itself.  Also, three of the MP3s were sitting in a directory with a dozen other MP3s and only those MP3s I was attempting to copy to the iPod were deleted.

As JimH points out, and as I'm very familiar with, a lot of things can step up to do damage when it comes to a miswrite, system failure, or blown disk cache.  If it weren't for the fact that only the MP3 files in the directories were touched, I wouldn't have been so quick to figure it was MC's fault (I'm not 100% convinced that it's MC's fault).

[Rands]

Backup, backup, backup!

I do make backups but not each time I create, change, or delete a file.  These MP3s were all brand new:  the radio show had been recorded the day previous and the CDs ripped later that night.

What I blame myself for is that when MC presented me with an entirely absurd situation (a hundred 'files' with completely empty tags), I shouldn't have expected MC to correct itself.  If I had been thinking, I'd have left MC as it was, checked the files themselves and perhaps moved them to safety, and then restart MC (and possibly XP too).  But, I hadn't had any caffeine yet, I was only halfway through a bowl of Rice Chex, and I just forged ahead like a madman... and paid the price!

[modelmaker]

I feel for you . Since my disaster I made myself get in the habit of starting Karen's replicator before I leave the computer or before I start doing something else after I 'm done downloading, ripping & tagging.

[SteveG]

Rands,

Please let us know if you can replicate any portion of this problem again.  In years of connecting iPods to MC, no one else has reported this problem so it is hard to chase it as an MC problem. If you have any more clues, we can continue to look.

Thanks,

Steve

[Rands]

I was able to replicate it again this morning:

1. Created a directory of 12 MP3s, marked the directory and it's subfolders & files as Read Only.
2. Imported those files into MC.
3. Attached the iPod via Firewire (using the Dock connected to my Asus mobo's on-board firewire).
4. Launched MC.
5. Selected the newly-imported MP3s and dragged them to the drag-n-drop hot spot.
6. Clicked on 'Show List'.
7. Cicked on 'Options'.
8. Selected the option to only show queued files.
9. Clicked on 'Show list again'.

Now I have the same screen of tagless files with the not-found icon.  The status bar shows the proper iPod statistics.  Now my guess here is that it's showing all of the files on my iPod but thinks it can't find them.  If I scroll through the list of blanks, I eventually come across the MP3s I've selected to be transferred and they're showing up properly.  Just now, I inserted a CD to install Microsoft OneNote so I can get a screen clipping of it, MC said it was 'Gathering files', and then it crashed.

After installing OneNote, I brought MC back up to get the screen capture.  Clicking on the iPod shows all the files on the iPod whether the context menu reads 'Show All Files' or 'Show Queued Files Only'.  No difference going between the two.

1. Selected the same MP3s to transfer.
2. Clicked on Show List and MC crashes.
3. Restarted MC.
4. Selected the same MP3s again.
5. Clicked on Show List.
6. Clicked on Options, Show Queued Files Only.
7. Clicked on Show List.

Here's a screenshot.

1. Selected the MP3s I wanted to transfer.
2. Hit delete.
3. Getting a 'Deletion Error' for each file.
4. After the last error, MC crashes.
5. Go to the directory where I had the MP3s: they're gone.

Let me know if you need any more details or have any more questions.

[SteveG]

Rands,

I think I may know what is going on in regards to the 'Not Found' files. The next build of MC should resolve this and we should revisit it after it is available and you can try it. Even with what I have changed, I cannot explain the deletion of the files from your drive which you reported earlier. Have you been able to replicate that part of the problem?

Thanks,

Steve

[Rands]

Actually, the last five steps replicate it.  When I highlight and delete from the iPod queue list the MP3s I had selected to import, it gives a 'Deletion Error' for each one and that's when it's actually deleting them from the drive.

[SteveG]

Rands,

After testing this extensively, I cannot duplicate this. I am using what will be the next build of MC so for starters, please get that version when it becomes available.

Then, if you still have the problem we need to look closely at what is different between our two configurations. Please update me after the new build is made available.

Thanks,

Steve

[Rands]

This morning I had MC crashing repeatedly after deleting files from the iPod.  It would delete the files and then, while updating the file list, it would crash.  When I tried to transfer files to the iPod, it gave the classic empty pop-up box with a single exclamation mark in it. 

I reinstalled MC, and then I was able to transfer files to the iPod without a problem.

This makes me think that, maybe, the last time I upgraded MC, I didn't do an uninstall first so it could be old bits mingling with new bits producing bad bits causing all of this.

[SteveG]

Rands,

Hard to say. I would like you to use the latest MC build. Last night's build was pulled for some unrelated reasons. As soon as the new version becomes available today, please install it and use that going forward.

Thanks,

Steve

[Rands]

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you on this yet.  It's been hectic what with the holidays and all.  I've barely had time to do anything with MC.  As soon as I get some time, I'll attempt another replication with whatever happens to be the most recent version and let you know if it's sorted or not.

[SteveG]

Rands,

Sounds good. Thanks for the update.

Steve

[Rands]

Steve, since I've upgraded to more recent builds, I have not had any of the described problems.  The file deletion aspect of it was kind of disturbing but it hasn't happened since.  Transferring is back to blissful normalcy.

Thanks for all of the good work.

[SteveG]

Thanks for letting me know.

Steve