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[Charlemagne 8]

... like immigration.

My wife and I have just begun Spanish lessons.

Like many other areas of the U.S., we are experiencing a large influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants -- some legal, some not ... it doesn't matter.

I've heard all of the "arguments" against "them" but, if I'm not mistaken, a very large percentage of "Americans" are descended from more or less "unwanted" immigrants.

Personally, I'm descended from Scottish, Irish and a little English, the former two being considered at one time as being "undesirable" and "taking our jobs" and the latter being, for the most part, unwanted back in England for one reason or another.

So I say "Come on in!!  Welcome to America!" For my part, I'll do my best to make them feel welcome .. hence the Spanish lessons.

CVIII

[Michel Lefebvre]

Funny thing....

I have been wanting to move to the US for some time time now... I don't speak Spanish, but I do speak French as well as English....

Haven't been able to make that happen, for many different reasons...

But what I find funny is that my daughter takes mandatory (sp?) Spanish classes in her Canadian high school as well as French and English...

Makes you think.... Doesn't it...

Michel.

[Charlemagne 8]

I took Spanish lessons for three years in high school as well as one year of French. I can speak neither.

I accidently picked up some grammar and spelling rules in Spanish class so that's helping me.
In French, I just hid in the back of the room and hoped I wouldn't get called on.

CVIII

[JimH]

I just hid in the back of the room and hoped I wouldn't get called on.

So at least you did learn a useful skill.

[Charlemagne 8]

Indeed. Invisibilty-at-will is very handy.

[bebop]

Here on the west coast, our kids have the option to learn Japaneese, French and Spanish at most schools.  Our son discarded Japaneese in favour of Spanish and french - only to discover that he could mix them up quite easily.  Japaneese is fast becoming the second language of choice, followed by various Chineese dialects due to trade with Pacific Rim countries and the numbers of immigrants who have settled here. Unfortunately, I am fluent in only one language - candian style english - we don't hesitate to adopt expressions from other languages and use them all the time without even realizing it!!! 

[KingSparta]

OT - Let's talk about something safe ...

Seat Belts

Are Good

[GHammer]

... like immigration.

My wife and I have just begun Spanish lessons.

Like many other areas of the U.S., we are experiencing a large influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants -- some legal, some not ... it doesn't matter.

I've heard all of the "arguments" against "them" but, if I'm not mistaken, a very large percentage of "Americans" are descended from more or less "unwanted" immigrants.

Um, why the quotes around "Americans"? I was born in the US, I consider myself an American, unquoted thanks.

Legal or not does matter. The immigrants so often mentioned as an example of why immigration is good followed the laws. Most assimilated quickly because they had a fairly common background.

Folks who jump the legal process and their employers should be arrested, deported, fined, jailed depending on if they are the immigrant or the employer and the number of arrests.

Many people I know do not come to the USA for freedom. Most come for money. Many do not wish to leave their ways/customs behind. For me, having goats tied in the backyard next door is not one of the benefits of diversity. If you've only come for the money, stay home and try harder.

I know it's an old fashioned, out of style opinion but. I think in the days of "Hi you're in the USA, fit in" those people built one of the greatest societies known. And I think the Balkans are a fine example of allowing groups to keep identifying with their group (religion, country, race, language) instead of joining their 'new' society.

As an aside to that, where are all these newcomers going to live? I saw an article the other day about how as much housing needs to be built in the next 15 years as was built in the last 50.

Here's a good read:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/sactestimony701.html

http://www.susps.org/index.html

Immigration needs an enforced limit.

[Charlemagne 8]

Ghammer,
Thanks for noticing that my use of quotation marks is significant. You're the first person ever to say anything about it.
From the perspective of the subject of immigration, there are some that say that the only true Americans live mainly on the reservations here. Hence the quotation marks.
The "something safe" of the subject line was sarcasm, I suppose. The subject usually invokes very passionate arguments.
The problems associated with massive immigration are real. They would be real for such an increase of population, whatever the reason.
And "coming for the money" implies greed to me. The minimum wage in the US is $5 or so per hour. A comparable job in Mexico pays that per day and is considered a decent job. The cost of living is not comparable, however, and there are families to feed.
The real criminal in this case is the American employer who uses, abuses and pays his illegal workers a very stingy wage because there is little the worker can do about it. As long as it's more than could be earned back home, they'll keep coming back. He's the greedy one and should be punished for human rights abuses -- very serious.
The reason that some immigration is illegal is because someone has passed a law against it. I don't mean to be overly simplistic because it's certainly not a simple situation. My overall point is that "we", as the Americans as they exist now, have dubious qualifications in being able to decide what is legal immigration and what is illegal, considering how we got here and what occurred when we did.
And I certainly NEVER meant to imply that you were not an American - with or without quotes.

CVIII

[Charlemagne 8]

King,
Seat belts ARE good. I never leave home without them. A law mandating their use by adults that should know the consequences of their actions? -- not so good.

CVIII

[modelmaker]

Both of you are forgetting a couple of important ingredients that contribute to the low "illegal" immigrant wages.

1. The marketplace; "Americans" don't want to pay higher prices for the products that the "illegals" produce. If you can't increase the prices, then you have to keep the costs down, hence low wages (especially agricultural products).

2. "Americans" don't want to work for those low wages, so the employers have to find workers elsewhere that are willing to work for those low wages, hence the "illegals".

So, until you're willing to pay 10 times more for a head of letuce, or 3 or 4 times more for that bottle of California wine or x times more for oranges and orange juice from Florida, the "illegals" situation isn't going to change.


Listening to: 'Ain't No Good' from 'Can't Fight Fate' by 'Taylor Dayne' on Media Center 9.0

[GHammer]

Both of you are forgetting a couple of important ingredients that contribute to the low "illegal" immigrant wages.

1. The marketplace; "Americans" don't want to pay higher prices for the products that the "illegals" produce. If you can't increase the prices, then you have to keep the costs down, hence low wages (especially agricultural products).

2. "Americans" don't want to work for those low wages, so the employers have to find workers elsewhere that are willing to work for those low wages, hence the "illegals".

So, until you're willing to pay 10 times more for a head of letuce, or 3 or 4 times more for that bottle of California wine or x times more for oranges and orange juice from Florida, the "illegals" situation isn't going to change.

Oh, I'm happy to know that there are millions of pickers at work. That is the usual arguement. Americans won't do those jobs. But, I have yet to see a list of jobs that Americans refuse to do.

Now, the bricklaying crews, roofers, etc that were the norm in DFW when I last lived there seem to have a job that an American used to do. And, I didn't notice the price break on houses either.

Those in Iowa are not there to detassle corn. They are factory workers.

No, I'm no longer buying the migrant picker story.

As for prices needing to be sky high if illegals were not able to to this or that job, nonsense. Another scare story that simply doesn't hold up in daylight.

Most clothing items are made elsewhere, especially in China. I have not seen the price of Levis, for example, drop due to the very low wages paid. Now, I'll agree that profits improve greatly for the company. But immigration policy doesn't need to provide for cheap labor.

[modelmaker]

Just because you don't want to 'buy' the "migrant picker story" doesn't make it untrue. It is in fact true. There have been numerous studies and news reports on this very subject over the past decade.

If it weren't for the subsidies that  the midwest farmers get for the growing of grain and corn they would also have had to raise their prices or go out of business (which many of them have had to do anyway and that's why a lot of them are working in factories, but won't be for long as we ship more good jobs out of the USA - thanks Walmart)).

Why do you think most of the textile manufacturers have deserted our country? They can't afford to pay American wages and still sell their products at a competitive price. More "Americans" out of work.

Show me an "American" who's willing to do hard manual labor like picking lettuce, or fruit or whatever for $5 an hour! "Americans" need to make $15 an hour just to make rent and food in an average city today (CNN report yesterday)

These aren't matters of opinion, these are matters of fact.

Edit: when I lived in Albuquerque,NM, I worked as both a carpenter and a roofer and I made $12/hour and this was back in the '80s -I'm sure this was comparable to DFW (Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas, for those who don't know). And the pickers were only making 3 bucks an hour then.

[GHammer]

Just because you don't want to 'buy' the "migrant picker story" doesn't make it untrue. It is in fact true. There have been numerous studies and news reports on this very subject over the past decade.

If it weren't for the subsidies that  the midwest farmers get for the growing of grain and corn they would also have had to raise their prices or go out of business (which many of them have had to do anyway and that's why a lot of them are working in factories, but won't be for long as we ship more good jobs out of the USA - thanks Walmart)).

Why do you think most of the textile manufacturers have deserted our country? They can't afford to pay American wages and still sell their products at a competitive price. More "Americans" out of work.

Show me an "American" who's willing to do hard manual labor like picking lettuce, or fruit or whatever for $5 an hour! "Americans" need to make $15 an hour just to make rent and food in an average city today (CNN report yesterday)

These aren't matters of opinion, these are matters of fact.

Edit: when I lived in Albuquerque,NM, I worked as both a carpenter and a roofer and I made $12/hour and this was back in the '80s -I'm sure this was comparable to DFW (Dallas-Fort Worth, Texas, for those who don't know). And the pickers were only making 3 bucks an hour then.

Yes, sorry, it DOES make it untrue. The number of migrant pickers is pretty steady over the years. It's not like there are more and more asparagus fields planted now versus 20 years ago.

As for your fact of competitive prices, why then have the prices of shirts, slacks, etc not gone down after the kindly manufacturers moved production to sweatshop countries?

No, again, I'm just not buying the usual story. The fact that a business would rather pay $5.00 than pay $15.00 should have nothing to do with immigration quotas. Americans rightfully do not want to work for slave wages.

[Charlemagne 8]

So it seems that ModelMaker is saying that migrant workers are essential to the economy.
I remember back in  the seventies when "long-haired hippies" were taking over the construction industry, an industry long dominated by "patriotic Americans". I heard it said more than once (somewhat belligerently as I was one of the LH hippies working in construction) that Communists were taking over the jobs that "true Americans" should have. The "Communists" seemed to work cheaper, though. That's business.
The problem with our jobs is not illegals, it's the mass exportation of our jobs to other countries. Asian countries in particular will do what we used to do much cheaper, probably just as good and without the constant complaining that American workers are famous for. China and Tiawan spring to mind. Even service jobs like technical assistance are going to poorer countries that have a larger, cheaper work force.
If you look at the rate at which China is growing economically, it's not hard to extrapolate that they will soon be dominant in the marketplace. That means America WILL NOT.
That exportation of jobs is not only giving away our place in the world, it's also the root cause of most of our economic woes.
When a person loses his $20.00 an hour factory job due to his company relocating to another country and has to take a job making $8.00 an hour, he doesn't make any sort of list -- he's not unemployed. But what does happen is he pays less income tax because he has less income. He contributes less to the Social Security System for the same reason. He buys less so he pays less sales tax.
Multiply that by a few million and then look around you. Not only is the US government in trouble with tax influx and Social Security, local governments from the state level all the way down to the small town level are suffering badly.
Maybe we should all move to China.

CVIII

(The foregoing was just my personal opinion, to which I am entitled. I was told the other day that the most dangerous thing a man can possess is an opinion.)

[GHammer]

So it seems that ModelMaker is saying that migrant workers are essential to the economy.
I remember back in  the seventies when "long-haired hippies" were taking over the construction industry, an industry long dominated by "patriotic Americans". I heard it said more than once (somewhat belligerently as I was one of the LH hippies working in construction) that Communists were taking over the jobs that "true Americans" should have. The "Communists" seemed to work cheaper, though. That's business.

If you look at the rate at which China is growing economically, it's not hard to extrapolate that they will soon be dominant in the marketplace. That means America WILL NOT.

That exportation of jobs is not only giving away our place in the world, it's also the root cause of most of our economic woes.


Maybe we should all move to China.

Well, in my personal fantasy world, because an employer can force people to work for little does not make it right. And the goverment has no business in passing laws solely designed to reduce the cost of labor for companies.

China will not pass the US as the economic engine of the world for that very reason. Companies do not come here to sell things, or to pay fair wages, they come here because they can abuse the labor force and environment. If 1.3 billion Chinese make $75 a month, how many Chevys will they buy? Even Henry Ford understood that you have to pay workers enough to buy your product.

Nah, I've been here 3 years now. The average American probably does not want to move...