Topic: Replay gain and upload volume adjustment (Read 11816 times)

mindracing · « **on:** January 26, 2005, 03:01:15 pm »

No matter what I do, replay gain just doesn't work when synching my iPod.

The volumes are really low and vary from track to track in a mixed album playlist.

I'd really appreciate a simple explanation on how to apply replay gain (all my tracks have been analysed) and achieve an overall increase in volume.

Many thanks.

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2005, 04:15:27 pm »

Ithink Steve is looking into this as I started a thread on this a week or so ago.

I've tried and can't get it to work either.

Richard

SteveG · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2005, 01:10:06 pm »

Sorry I have been unable to put time into solving this yet. If you can, try checking the box for 'Apply replay gain' and explore boosting the volume adjustment by more than 6dB and see if the results change for you. I will test this more when I am able.

Thanks,

Steve

mindracing · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2005, 01:45:52 pm »

Hi Steve,

I have done this at 24db with no success. The volumes are still all different and the bottom volume very low.

Does the replay gain work in the same way as the volume boost but applies different levels of boost depending on the gain analysis?

Can distortion occur with high levels of boost?

I know you'll sort this Steve. Keep up the good work.

Ash.

SteveG · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2005, 02:13:20 pm »

Rich and Ash,

I took some time to look at this today.

iPod has no clue about Replay Gain. It does have a volume adjustment setting which as far as I can tell is based on a scale from -100 to 100. When applying Replay Gain, I take whatever the Replay Gain setting is in MC to start. Then, I add or subtract whatever boost is applied in the 'Set Volume Adjustment' dialogue. Then whatever number results, I multiply by 50 and then divide by 6 to convert to an iPod volume number. I think that numbers outside the -100 - 100 range are acceptable based on my testing.

For files that are not working correctly for you, can you give an example of their replay gain and any adjustment you are setting and I will try to duplicate it based on the formula I posted above?

Thanks,

Steve

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 29, 2005, 09:50:12 pm »

Thanks Steve,

I don't think the iPod is using/recognising this volume adjustment setting (I have a 40GB 3G iPod).

I have used +6db and +24db with replay gain enabled on several files and they all sound exactly the same as when I have it disabled.

The only way I could get the files to the same volume was to run MP3Gain on the iPod, which I assume sets a MP3 tag somewhere for volume adjustment?

Woud it be possible when transferring files to the iPod in MP3 format to use the same tag that MP3Gain uses as the iPod works perfectly this way?

Let me know if you want me to email you any actual audio files to test, but I think you will find any file will have the problem.

Thanks for looking into this for us.

Regards
Richard

mindracing · « **Reply #6 on:** January 30, 2005, 03:35:38 am »

That's exactly what I experience,

If I use EuPod volume booster I can adjust all ov the volumes by the same amount.

I understand that this works by changin a tag value in each file to reflect the required percentage increase in volume.

Using the replay gain figure can MC calculate the adjustment for each file and then make the same tag change?

SteveG · « **Reply #7 on:** January 31, 2005, 08:25:02 am »

Richard and Ash,

The iPod volume adjustment setting does not alter any tag information, it is applied when the file plays and is less than a perfect science. For the files that are not doing what you would expect, email me your iTunesDB (with only the files you are testing on it) and the settings you are applying and the reported replay gain in MC. With this information I can look at what the iPod volume adjustment setting is and see if it what it should be.

Steve

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 31, 2005, 03:50:12 pm »

Thanks Steve,

I can't do any testing right now as I've sync'd my 4500 files to the iPod (took 4 days) so can't clear them out at the moment as I need to use the iPod.

I did email you my iTunesDB and other info a couple of weeks ago that may be able to help.

I don't think the iPod is actually recognising the volume adjustment setting (could be an iPod bug). When I was testing I clicked the Volume Adjustment check box (instead of replay gain) and increased the volume by 36db. When transferred, the files (any file I tried) played at the same volume as the original file with no volume adjustment or replay gain set.

The iTumesDB may have a volume adjustment value set, but if the iPod doesn't do anything with it (by design or a bug) then nothing you do with MC is going to make a difference.

Maybe setting the MP3 tag like MP3Gain does would be more reliable?

Sorry Ash, I'll have to leave you to send Steve any additional info/files as I just can't wipe my iPod again for testing right now.

Cheers
Richard

SteveG · « **Reply #9 on:** February 01, 2005, 12:24:44 pm »

Everyone,

The next build of MC contains modifications that should resolve issues regarding Replay Gain. The solution will have the following limitation....

The conversion from Replay Gain to iPod volume adjustment uses the formula Gain * 50 / 6 to convert to a -100 to 100 point scale. Any adjustments outside of this range will default to the 100 point maximum so it will be capped at a certain point.

There was a bug that is fixed so things should be better now.

Thanks,

Steve

mindracing · « **Reply #10 on:** February 01, 2005, 12:29:37 pm »

That's great Steve,

Do you mean next release of MC10 or MC 11?

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** February 01, 2005, 12:42:03 pm »

JustinChase · « **Reply #12 on:** February 02, 2005, 11:27:49 am »

I'm transferring the rest of my files right now. I transferred most of them last night while v .184 was downloading.

Anyone know if the improved/fixed replay gain system will apply to the files that are already on the iPod, or just the ones that get loaded with the new version?

thanks

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 02, 2005, 03:39:10 pm »

Ash,

Have you been able to test if the replay gain is now working properly?

Cheers
Richard

mindracing · « **Reply #14 on:** February 02, 2005, 03:41:06 pm »

No, I'm using MC10 and JimH says they won't support the fix!

SteveG · « **Reply #15 on:** February 02, 2005, 04:42:47 pm »

Justin,

I replied in your other thread, but the answer is no, the files will need to be resent.

Steve

Nolonemo · « **Reply #16 on:** February 02, 2005, 06:29:15 pm »

Is there a way this can be implemented for the Creative Zen players? I know the Zen Xtra has a feature that's supposed to work like replay gain, so perhaps the player is aware of the gain info in the tag?

SteveG · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2005, 02:44:14 pm »

Nolonemo,

There is definitely not a way to send that adjustment via the software developers kit given to us from Creative.

Quote

I know the Zen Xtra has a feature that's supposed to work like replay gain,

What do you know about it? How does it work and what to you set to apply it?

Steve

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2005, 03:09:17 pm »

Steve,

If the ZEN is receiving MP3 files, which I assume it would be, can't you just set the tag like MP3Gain does to apply replay gain from MC11?

In fact this would then apply replay gain for ANY player MC11 syncs MP3 files to. (including iPod)

Is there a reason (and there may well ge a good one) this isn't something that could be done?

Regards
Richard

Otto · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2005, 05:42:08 pm »

Quote from: SteveG on February 01, 2005, 12:24:44 pm

Everyone,

The next build of MC contains modifications that should resolve issues regarding Replay Gain. The solution will have the following limitation....

The conversion from Replay Gain to iPod volume adjustment uses the formula Gain * 50 / 6 to convert to a -100 to 100 point scale. Any adjustments outside of this range will default to the 100 point maximum so it will be capped at a certain point.

There was a bug that is fixed so things should be better now.

Thanks,
Steve

Steve, ReplayGain values can be converted to values that the iPod can use when you turn on the SoundCheck functionality. You don't have to use the volume field on the iPod.

Specific information about how to put this into the mhit correctly can be found here: http://ipodlinux.org/ITunesDB#Track_Item

But basically, instead of writing some imprecise value into the volume field, you write it into the soundcheck field, which starts 12 bytes after the volume field. The conversion is as follows: Soundcheck field value = 1000 * 10 ^ (-.1 * ReplayGain dB value). This is the exact conversion, not an estimated one.

Anyway, the upshot of doing it this way is that ReplayGain values will be used whenever "SoundCheck" is enabled in the iPod's settings. This also allows users to use the volume field for individual song adjustments, as well as letting them turn off ReplayGain on the fly if they so desire.

The iPodLinux wiki is where I keep all this information at, but feel free to email me if you have any questions about specifics on the iPod's file formats.

-Otto

SteveG · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2005, 08:17:17 am »

Otto,

Thanks.

Steve

runemail · « **Reply #21 on:** February 05, 2005, 01:39:44 pm »

Quote

The conversion from Replay Gain to iPod volume adjustment uses the formula Gain * 50 / 6 to convert to a -100 to 100 point scale. Any adjustments outside of this range will default to the 100 point maximum so it will be capped at a certain point.

So this means gain values over 12 is useless?

SteveG · « **Reply #22 on:** February 05, 2005, 06:02:06 pm »

There is a maximum cap. I will modify this in the near future.

Steve

TXgary · « **Reply #23 on:** February 10, 2005, 08:00:15 am »

referring to the zen xtra (and the IPOD for that matter), why not apply the replay gain at sync time therefore all music on the handheld would be at the same level. Being they would be normalized to play at the same volume on the handhelds. This could be done at the sync point (or NOT??)
When you turn on the volume balance in zen xtra it eats up the battery.

SteveG · « **Reply #24 on:** February 10, 2005, 12:57:45 pm »

TXgary,

Are you implying doing a rencode of the files at the point of sync? This would be possible, but time consuming.

Steve

TXgary · « **Reply #25 on:** February 10, 2005, 01:25:37 pm »

Yes,
we do that when we create a cd (wav) don't we in effect? This would be a much better option than having to change the volume for each song and for having to use EAX. on the zen. Many of us convert mp3 to wma when we sync. How much more time would be added?

Otto · « **Reply #26 on:** February 10, 2005, 08:42:06 pm »

Gain levels of MP3's (and in theory of AAC's as well) can be adjusted without reencoding. You're limited to 1.5 dB increments, but still. Look for "MP3Gain" for more information. The code for it can be found on sourceforge.

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #27 on:** February 11, 2005, 08:20:31 am »

You don't want to re-encode unless you have to!

I store all my files in MC11 as WMA and thus HAVE to encode them to MP3 when syncing to my iPod.

My 5000ish files take approx 4.5 days on a 1.9GHz PC to sync/encode to my iPod.

As Otto mentions, and I suggested a while back. Why not just use the MP3 gain level setting like MP3Gain for all portables that support MP3 files. This would save having to do something different for the Zen/iPod etc. etc.

R

Otto · « **Reply #28 on:** February 11, 2005, 09:35:00 am »

Quote from: rpalmer68 on February 11, 2005, 08:20:31 am

This would save having to do something different for the Zen/iPod etc. etc.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far. Doing it right on the iPod is a good thing. I mean, you have to write the iTunesDB file *anyway*, so you might as well populate the SoundCheck field with the ReplayGain data, if you have it already. Just leaving it blank in favor of using MP3Gain methods is a bit pointless, because MP3Gain is harder to do (have to change the MP3 files), MP3Gain is less accurate (1.5 dB increments), and you can't turn off MP3Gain on the fly like you'd be able to with the SoundCheck field.

Nolonemo · « **Reply #29 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:28:31 pm »

Quote from: Otto on February 10, 2005, 08:42:06 pm

Gain levels of MP3's (and in theory of AAC's as well) can be adjusted without reencoding. You're limited to 1.5 dB increments, but still. Look for "MP3Gain" for more information. The code for it can be found on sourceforge.

How are you limited to 1.5 dB increments? I run all my mp3s through MP3Gain (to match up album gain) and sometimes there are quite large gain adjustments.

Nolonemo · « **Reply #30 on:** February 11, 2005, 02:34:04 pm »

Steve posted:
"

Quote

I know the Zen Xtra has a feature that's supposed to work like replay gain

What do you know about it? How does it work and what to you set to apply it?

Steve"

I don't know anything about it or how it works. You set it doing EAX Settings -> EAX:On, Settings: Smart Volume, Preset: Match Volume

Otto · « **Reply #31 on:** February 13, 2005, 02:32:58 pm »

Quote from: Nolonemo on February 11, 2005, 02:28:31 pm

How are you limited to 1.5 dB increments? I run all my mp3s through MP3Gain (to match up album gain) and sometimes there are quite large gain adjustments.

Yes, you can make large adjustments. And those large adjustments are divisible by 1.5. That's what I meant by "1.5 dB increments".

Nolonemo · « **Reply #32 on:** February 14, 2005, 05:14:12 pm »

Quote from: Otto on February 13, 2005, 02:32:58 pm

Yes, you can make large adjustments. And those large adjustments are divisible by 1.5. That's what I meant by "1.5 dB increments".

Ahh, thanks Otto. That also explains why my mp3gain adjustments look the way they do.

mindracing · « **Reply #33 on:** February 15, 2005, 03:34:02 pm »

Steve,

I finally got around to MC11. It's great and replay gain works a treat.

Thanks.

Ash.

TXgary · « **Reply #34 on:** February 15, 2005, 03:51:38 pm »

Mindracing
you wrote "I finally got around to MC11. It's great and replay gain works a treat."
What do you mean by replay gain works a treat. Are you lusing a zen or what handheld or do you mean just MC11 standalone? I am using the zen and would like particulars if that is what you were referring to..

mindracing · « **Reply #35 on:** February 16, 2005, 01:15:40 am »

Sorry for being vague, TXGary. I was just letting Steve know that the replay gain problems I was having with my iPod are now sorted since upgrading to MC11.

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 16, 2005, 07:32:22 am »

Great to hear it's now working!

SteveG - Are you now using the ReplayGain as per Otto's suggestion earlier in this thread that requires soundcheck enabled? Or are you still setting the volume level for eah file?

Cheers
Richard

Otto · « **Reply #37 on:** February 16, 2005, 11:27:38 am »

If somebody wants to compare the relative difference between doing it the volume way and doing it the soundcheck way, then go grab a copy of the foobar2000 player and a copy of the foo_pod plugin for it. You'll have to have foobar scan your files for ReplayGain information, but after that foo_pod will put the data into the soundcheck field by default. There's a preference setting to put it in the volume field instead.

Anyway, I only point this out in order to let you guys try both ways and see which method you like better using your iPod. I much prefer the soundcheck approach, but some people don't.

Moto · « **Reply #38 on:** February 16, 2005, 03:16:48 pm »

Im no expert..But I vote for using the sound check field. Listening to a pod that uses sound check, compared to mine using MC's replaygain, I can hear a difference in my songs compared to my buddy's. And as Otto mentioned if we already have to populate the pod's DB then why not use the sound check field which is already there.? Also im still interested to know if MC uses the same tagging for replaygain settings as MP3replaygain?? I would think MC would want to be standardized for gain settings. Again im no expert just chipping in.

-Moto

SteveG · « **Reply #39 on:** February 19, 2005, 06:57:38 pm »

Modifications will be made to accommodate both methods. I am not sure when.

Steve

JustinChase · « **Reply #40 on:** March 06, 2005, 08:48:53 pm »

Quote from: SteveG on February 19, 2005, 06:57:38 pm

Modifications will be made to accommodate both methods. I am not sure when.

Steve

Any new info on this front? I'm about ready to wipe and reload my library, and am wondering if waiting a couple of days might give me more/better options for replay gain.

Thanks

sail121j · « **Reply #41 on:** March 08, 2005, 11:26:53 am »

After reading all of the comments on replay gain for the iPod, I am still not sure how to implement it. I am running MC 11 and all of my files have replay gain done to them. Exactly how do I transfer this functionality to the iPod. What is the trick? Is there some command in the transfer that sends the gain value? What settings on the iPod are required to utilize the feature. So many questions. Any step by step help would be appreciated. Replay gain works great played from my computer.

Thanks
Jack

SteveG · « **Reply #42 on:** March 12, 2005, 11:52:28 am »

Jack,

Currently, to implement Replay Gain, right click on the iPod in the tree and use the settings for 'Volume Adjustment'. If you enable Replay Gain, and transfer the files to iPod, the files will have an approximation of the Replay Gain applied on the iPod. In the future this will change.

The Replay Gain option must be enabled before the files transfer for this to work.

Steve

rpalmer68 · « **Reply #43 on:** March 14, 2005, 11:25:08 pm »

Steve,

I assume you are still doing this with the volume adjustment?

I may have worked out why this wasn't working for me.

I dock my iPod in it's cradle and use the audio output from the cradle to my hi-fi. From my reading it appears the volume adjustment only works when using the headphone output.

Will the soundcheck option be implemented at some stage?

Cheers
Richard

sail121j · « **Reply #44 on:** March 15, 2005, 10:54:06 am »

Steve - thanks for the information. Sorry to take so long on replying, but I was testing my latest download of songs with the settings you suggested and I use the headphone jack as the source for my amp. As far as I can tell, it seems to be working much better than before - so far so good. Thanks again.

Jack

SteveG · « **Reply #45 on:** March 21, 2005, 10:11:00 am »

Richard,

This will be implemented.

Steve

Moto · « **Reply #46 on:** March 30, 2005, 04:04:19 pm »

? Steve,

Any hope that this will be implemented into MC11?? Or sooner?? That would be the kewlest...I'll send you a 6 pack of fine Northwest Microbrew

...If it happens..

Thanks -Moto

SteveG · « **Reply #47 on:** April 01, 2005, 04:39:32 pm »

Moto,

Beer is always an inspiration.

I will try to get to it soon.

Steve

Moto · « **Reply #48 on:** April 05, 2005, 04:29:28 pm »

Thanks for the reply Steve. When it happens PM me a mailing address and what your flavors taste buds are thirsty for $:-\$ $:-\$

-Moto

SteveG · « **Reply #49 on:** April 05, 2005, 05:04:56 pm »

This should be added soon.

Steve

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Author Topic: Replay gain and upload volume adjustment (Read 11816 times)

Otto

Otto

Otto

Otto

Otto