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[stefansmith]

I've been using MC for a few years now, mostly with APEs and MP3s. For various reasons, I need FLAC for some purposes. I know there is a plug-in for MC10 to work with FLAC, and I've tried it and it works OK, but I'm wondering if FLAC integration will be a little bit easier in MC11.

I searched the archives of this forum, and cannot seem to find a definitive or clear answer -- so will it be integrated, available as a plug-in, or still a third party patch?

My frustration over the FLAC issue has led me to look for other solutions, but I still keep coming back to MC -- it beats other player hands down.
I think Monkeys Audio is great and use it alot, but sometimes NEED flac too. It would just be nice to have the option. And looking through the archives, it seems alot of people think the same.
Thanks to anyone who can clear this up.

[iCamp]

I think there are hundreds of MC users who agree with you on all points, however, it appears true FLAC support by JRiver is a dead issue.  I wish things were different but that's just the way it appears.
The FLAC plug-in is OK for basic use though -at least we have that. 

[scthom]

I've been toying with the idea of trying to write the encoder plugin to match the existing decoder plugin.

I don't want to get anybody's hopes up, as I'm pretty busy and not that good of a programmer.

However, I do use FLAC myself and would prefer the plugin to the external encoder as is currently available.

Fortunately, I do have all of the right pieces (C++, FLAC library, etc).  Now I just have to figure out the SDK provided by JRiver. 

[iCamp]

I'm quite sure there are technical types here willing to provide info to you.  Perhaps they can get involved in this thread?

Anyway, I'd like to thank you for even considering the task. 

[Vizsla]

I'll add my $.02 to the thread.....I've been wishing for FLAC support since I began using Media Center (version 7). I realize the Monkey's Audio developer is either close to or part of the JRiver operation, but FLAC has become the de facto standard for exchanging binaries etc. and the constant conversion to APE is time consuming.

At the core of Media Center's value to users are its data base capabilities and extended file format support. Lack of FLAC support is becomng more and more of an issue. How can one claim extended format support if FLAC is not supported natively? The APE format is perfectly lovely, but it hasn't been marketed powerfully enough and FLAC has become more and more prevalent.

While we're at it, lossless AIFF would be great for those of us iPod junkies......

[KingSparta]

most people don't even know what "FLAC" is, "APE" for all that matter

6 months ago I found somone who did not know what A MP3 was

I realize the Monkey's Audio developer is either close to or part of the JRiver operation

he is called "MATT"

[lpr]

I'll have to agree with stefansmith & vizsla on this one.

FLAC support is *the* taboo subject that always comes back.

[Michel Lefebvre]

FLAC has become the de facto standard for exchanging binaries etc.

Vizsla, could expand on this? Where is it used a lot? I never came accross flac files before, but maybe it's only because it's not used in my neck of the woods...

Thanks.

Michel.

[JimH]

I'll have to agree with stefansmith & vizsla on this one.

FLAC support is *the* taboo subject that always comes back.

It's in no way a taboo subject.  We have our hands full and FLAC is an open format.  If it's that important perhaps someone in the FLAC community can improve the situation.

[Alex B]

FLAC support is *the* taboo subject that always comes back.

I don't think it's rational to think that J River folks could have some kind of love and hate relationships with different file formats. I think they would give us support for all formats if that would be possible just by thinking of it.

It is just a matter of priorities and perhaps a matter of user demand.

Personally I would like to see all formats that some other well-known programs support fully supported in MC too. In my opinion the most important besides FLAC are the Apple and Nero variants of AAC. I don't know if the full AAC support is even possible since the formats are not open.

P.S.

I almost finished this, but something in the kitchen needed my attention.   In the meanwhile Jim already confirmed some of my writing. Now, going back to check the oven...

[modelmaker]

What did you make...eskimo pie?

[Alex B]

Eskimo pie? I had to google for it. "Wikipedia: Eskimo Pie is a brand name for a chocolate-covered vanilla ice cream bar wrapped in foil, the first such dessert sold in the United States."

I was just making some warm sandwiches. Though I made a special cheese dressing for them. It's my own secret recipe.

Wikipedia says this about FLAC:

FLAC

FLAC stands for Free Lossless Audio Codec. FLAC is an audio compression codec that is lossless. Unlike lossy codecs such as MP3 and Vorbis, it does not remove any information from the audio stream.

On January 29th, 2003, Xiphophorus (now called the Xiph.org Foundation) announced the incorporation of FLAC under their xiph.org banner, to go along with Ogg Vorbis, Ogg Theora, and Speex.

The Project

The FLAC project consists of:

- the stream format
- libFLAC, a library of reference encoders and decoders, and a metadata interface
- libFLAC++, an object wrapper around libFLAC
- flac, a command-line wrapper around libFLAC to encode and decode .flac files
- metaflac, a command-line metadata editor for .flac files
- input plugins for various music players (Winamp, XMMS, and more in the works)

"Free" means that the specification of the stream format is in the public domain (the FLAC project reserves the right to set the FLAC specification and certify compliance), and that neither the FLAC format nor any of the implemented encoding/decoding methods are covered by any patent. It also means that the sources for libFLAC and libFLAC++ are available under Xiph.org's BSD license and the sources for flac, metaflac, and the plugins are available under the GPL.

Comparisons

FLAC is distinguished from general lossless algorithms such as ZIP and gzip in that it is specifically designed for the efficient packing of audio data; while ZIP may compress a CD-quality audio file 20–40%, FLAC achieves compression rates of 30–70%.

While lossy codecs can achieve ratios of 80–90+%, they do this at the expense of discarding data from the original stream. Though FLAC uses a similar technique in its encoding process, it also adds "residual" data to allow the decoder to restore the original waveform flawlessly.

FLAC has become the preferred lossless format for trading live music online. It has a smaller file size than Shorten, and unlike MP3, it's lossless, which ensures the highest fidelity to the source material, which is important to live music traders.

FLAC compiles on many platforms: most Unices (including Linux, *BSD, Solaris, and Mac OS X), Windows, BeOS, and OS/2. There are build systems for autoconf/automake, MSVC, Watcom C, and Project Builder.

This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Wikipedia article "FLAC".

[s7uar7]

Sorry JRiver, but the lack of native FLAC support has cost you a buyer here.

I was a long-time user of Media Jukebox - great product and I haven't found anything that compares with it's ease of use.  When disks started becoming bigger and cheaper I started ripping CDs to APE, as that was the default lossless codec with Media Jukebox.  If I remember correctly, at the time APE was closed source, so not wanting to get stuck with a format that I may not be able to read in 5 years I re-encoded all my APE to FLAC.  I dropped Media Jukebox then and moved over to Foobar2000 for the FLAC support.  I've since bought a Slim Devices Squeezebox and an iAudio M3 player, both of which support FLAC, but not APE.

Foobar2000 is starting to look a little tired, so I thought I'd check out Media Center, with the intention of buying - it didn't even cross my mind that it wouldn't support FLAC without a 3rd party plugin.  I appreciate that there are close ties between Media Center and APE, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who will be looking elsewhere.

[mikesm]

It's in no way a taboo subject.  We have our hands full and FLAC is an open format.  If it's that important perhaps someone in the FLAC community can improve the situation.

JimH,  given there does seem to be demand for a full FLAC support, and you are strapped for resources, what would be the best way for the open source community to help?  Obviously FLAC's source is available as are libraries for encoding and decoding, so I presume it's the glue to plug this into MC. 

Is there a writeup somewhere that would outline what would be needed for seamless FLAC integration into MC11.  I'm not trying to complain, but rather identify what would be needed for a win-win situation.

Thanks,
Mike

[Matt]

http://www.jrmediacenter.com/devzone.html

[scthom]

I've been working on a FLAC encoder plugin to go with decoder from Oblong.

Right now, if you want to use FLAC you have to use the external encoder setting and get the executable version.  The decoder portion can be handled via plugin as mentioned above.

So far, I have the DLL working, registers in MC fine.  The actual FLAC implementation is still under construction.  Maybe a few more weeks?

[iCamp]

Thank you!  I look forward to following progress.

[GHammer]

Sorry JRiver, but the lack of native FLAC support has cost you a buyer here.

If I remember correctly, at the time APE was closed source, so not wanting to get stuck with a format that I may not be able to read in 5 years I re-encoded all my APE to FLAC.

Hmmm, so you don't think you can keep say, Monkey's Audio 3.99, around with your APE files? I bet as long as I have a computer that runs win32 apps I'll be able to at least extract the wav files from any APE.

Foobar2000 is starting to look a little tired, so I thought I'd check out Media Center, with the intention of buying - it didn't even cross my mind that it wouldn't support FLAC without a 3rd party plugin.  I appreciate that there are close ties between Media Center and APE, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who will be looking elsewhere.

And what is the need for a 'native' plugin/support? I've never quite understood that myself. A quality 3rd party plugin would be fine with me. In fact that is how I listen to APE files on some other players including WMP 10. Shall I uninstall all of them because they don't have "native" support?

But, good luck in your search for the same capabilities in another player.

As an aside, I see some who say they want FLAC support because their portable will play FLAC. Wonder what that does to battery life? "I have great sound. For 15 minutes."

[iCamp]

Thanks, GHammer.  Come into a thread talking about adding additional format support to a media player we all love to use and then crap all over it.  If you want to talk about the benefits of APE vs. FLAC why don't you start another thread?  This thread isn't here for the type of discussion you're trying to provoke.

Let's get back to the topic.

[GHammer]

Oh, only cheerleaders allowed, eh?
Sorry to rain on your FLAC Now! parade.

I'll note you have no answers to my question as to why native support is demanded past "Because we say so".

[Noman]

As an aside, I see some who say they want FLAC support because their portable will play FLAC. Wonder what that does to battery life? "I have great sound. For 15 minutes."

I used my Karma for more than 8 hours this week whith Flacs. I put it on recharge but I think it had some juice left ?

[paulr]

I am in favor of getting good FLAC support in MC.  Whether that comes in the form of native support or a quality plugin makes no difference to me - as long as I can import/encode/decode/transcode and *tag* effectively, then I'll be happy.

My reason for wanting FLAC support is that currently, Slimserver has full FLAC support so that I am able to transcode FLAC -> MP3 for streaming purposes (works with any stream capable player).

As far as portable battery life, I don't see how that would be an issue at all.  FLAC uses hardly any resources to decode.  I am not certain, but I suspect that a high quality MP3 would require more computation power to decode than FLAC.  The only drawback on a portable is file size.

If, in the future, someone writes a module for Slimserver that will allow me to use APE (there have been attempts, but nothing solid yet as far as I know), then I won't have a use for FLAC at all.  I don't have a portable player, and I doubt I ever will... 

-Alternatively- If, in the future, MC supports streaming to non-MC players, then I will have no need for FLAC.

[Matt]

Can't we all just get along

[lpr]

import/encode/decode/transcode and *tag* effectively [...]
My reason for wanting FLAC support is that currently, Slimserver has full FLAC support so that I am able to transcode FLAC -> MP3 for streaming purposes (works with any stream capable player).

These are the exact same reasons I would love to see FLAC support on MC. The Squeezebox and MC tag management. I must admit that the Karma would be another fun toy to try with MC.

Take care,
lpr

[jcoalson]

As an aside, I see some who say they want FLAC support because their portable will play FLAC. Wonder what that does to battery life? "I have great sound. For 15 minutes."

Now now, no need for FUD.  The iPod, Rio Karma, and iAudio M3 all play FLAC for several hours.

Josh

[scthom]

For those of you following this thread, there is now a flac encoder plugin posted in the Skins & Plugins page of the JRiver site.  There is a thread in the 3rd Party Plugins forum for comments and questions.

You will need Oblong's decoder plugin for complete flac support.