Topic: ID3 Tagging (Read 4936 times)

AFTwatch · « **on:** September 24, 2002, 03:49:53 pm »

After importing MP3 files that I have downloaded from the internet, I'll change or correct the information in properties. Ever once awhile my PC will stop responding after I saved my file. The only why I can change this is to disable the ID3 tagging feature. What can be done to correct this.

JimH · « **Reply #1 on:** September 24, 2002, 04:06:04 pm »

Try the latest build, 8.0.378, available in a thread at the top of this page.

This problem has appeared in the last couple of weeks. We know it is real, but we can't duplicate it.

Our working theory is that the ever-changing ID3v2 standards, now on .4, I think, are the problem. Some software, implementing the latest, is creating tags that cause problems for others.

Or at least that's our theory. We'll have it nailed in a week or two.

If you find a file that won't update, please send it, with a description, to jimh @ jriver.com.

Nikolay · « **Reply #2 on:** September 25, 2002, 06:35:54 am »

AFTwatch,

Please go to our plug-ins page and download latest MP3 plug-in:
http://www.musicex.com/cgi-bin/downloads/plugins.pl?type=4

The plug-in will fix the problem.

Nikolay

ashawley · « **Reply #3 on:** September 25, 2002, 08:11:26 pm »

I don't think you've got this problem solved yet. Even with the release put out today (8.0.379)

Ever since I started using MJ I run into this problem. I'll start batch editing some tags (usually just a CD's worth) and after the first or second CD it hangs. Oh, it will eventually update the tags, but 5 minutes to save a CD's worth of tags is just not workable.

Other tag editors never take this long (MMJB, Dr. Tagit, heck ANY program I've tried).

I know this has been a bug with you guys for quite some time (since I know I reported it month's ago) and you said it was tied to the ID3 standards. I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

I really want to see MJ to continue to thrive, but for me, this makes this app useless.

What's the story? I'm running WinXp Home on a Dell GX1 w/500 mhz PIII and 384 megs of RAM if that helps.

I've downloaded the latest mp3 plugin as well, same problem. It happens to me EVERY time is use MJ.

Adam

JimH · « **Reply #4 on:** September 26, 2002, 05:12:30 am »

Please send a file that it fails on to jimh @ jriver.com.

Nikolay · « **Reply #5 on:** September 26, 2002, 06:37:33 am »

ashawley,

The update speed is related to a new implementation of the ID3 V2 library. The previous version was faster but if tagging failed, the mp3 file was completely destroyed.

The new library fixes the problem.

The new version first creates a temp file and writes all information into it. Then the library overwrites the existing file with the new one.

This problem will not be fixed soon because the only solution is to write our own implementation of ID3 v2 library.

You can fix the speed problem by disabling writing of ID3 v2 tags.

Nikolay

ashawley · « **Reply #6 on:** September 26, 2002, 08:57:32 am »

Jim/Nikolay:

Thanks for the response. It's not on one particular file or a batch of files. The problem occurs on all files.

So, you're telling me it's with the ID3v2 library. OK, I can buy that, I'm not an ID3.org expert, so help me out here.

I don't experience this problem with other tools that are designed just for tag managment (Dr. Tag, Tag Scanner, Tag&Rename) are you saying that these programs all have their own implementation of ID3v2 library, that's why it's faster?

I did some testing with task manager opened. While MJ is saving tags, both MJ and the "Please wait" window show as Not Responding for periods (a few seconds on each song) and MJ is grabbing 97% of my system resources. Remember, this is just during saving tags. I've tested with other tag management apps and they only grab about 10-20% of my CPU resources.

Interesting???

If you still feel that's just how it is I thank you for your time and I'll take this as a $24 lesson learned (use the demo more before buying).

Thanks,

Adam

JimH · « **Reply #7 on:** September 26, 2002, 09:26:10 am »

Adam,
Could you post your system info? MJ Help lets you copy it to the clipboard.

KingSparta · « **Reply #8 on:** September 26, 2002, 09:32:18 am »

>> are you saying that these programs all have their
>> own implementation of ID3v2 library
they may not be able to answer than, and i am not sure they want to get into that.

But the answer Maybe Yes and No. depending on what program your talking about. and also some are using an older version of the ID3 V2 library that may show other errors and problems to include coruption of the ID3v2 tag and also the MP3 file it's self.

ID3v2 taging is slower it will always be slower than ID3v1.1

there are many reasons to hate it and many reasons to love it.

Please!!!

If you have a file that hangs send it to them, maybe they can figure out what is going on with it. and this in turn will help maybe other users who may see the same problem who are not reporting it.

ashawley · « **Reply #9 on:** September 26, 2002, 12:45:02 pm »

Jim:

Here's my system info:

Media Jukebox 8.0.379
Install Path: C:\Program Files\J River\Media Jukebox\

CPU: Intel Pentium III 647 MHz MMX
Memory: Total - 261 MB, Free - 36 MB
OS: Microsoft Windows XP Workstation 5.1 Service Pack 1 (Build 2600)

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2800.1106
ComCtl32.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
Shell32.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
wnaspi32.dll: Internal ASPI Layer

Just so you know this also happens on my Home PC, different set up (XP Home, more memory etc.).

I should also be clear, MJ doesn't "hang" completely when saving tags. If I watch Task Manager while it's saving the "Please Wait" window and the MJ window will change to "Not Responding" for a few seconds, then when the save is complete, MJ will pop back to "Running" and the percentage of system resources MJ is using goes back to what I consider "normal"

I could send you a file, but this happens on all files I try...so not sure if that's the issue.

Again, it could be just something to live with, but the Not Responding part is something to look into.

Adam

hottuna · « **Reply #10 on:** September 26, 2002, 05:15:17 pm »

I've had the exact same problem for quite a while now, slow, CPU gets hogged by MJ, and this has happened through several releases going back to about 8.0.320.

It's not a particular file, it's VERY slow updating a batch of MP3 files, doesn't matter which files, even freshly ripped MJ/lame files.

Hope the sysinfo helps.

Media Jukebox PLUS 8.0.372
Install Path: D:\Program Files\J River\Media Jukebox\

CPU: Intel Pentium 4 1699 MHz MMX
Memory: Total - 523 MB, Free - 73 MB
OS: Microsoft Windows XP Workstation 5.1 Service Pack 1 (Build 2600)

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2800.1106
ComCtl32.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
Shell32.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
wnaspi32.dll: 4.71 (0001) , ASPI for Win32 DLL, Copyright © 1989-2002 Adaptec, Inc.
Aspi32.sys: 4.71 (0001)

ashawley · « **Reply #11 on:** September 27, 2002, 11:11:54 am »

Hot da*m to Hottuna! I finally feel like I'm not alone in the world.

I did another test folks, I removed all id3 v1 and v2 tags from a song, imported it freshly into MJ, then edited the tags on the song. Same issue. Takes about 15+ seconds to write tags, get Not Responding for a few seconds in Task Manager and CPU hog-fest.

Thought I'd let you know.

Adam

ubu · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2002, 02:05:26 pm »

Same problem for some time now here too. Updating with or without tags sometimes takes minutes, sometimes not. No apparent correlation between stall and anything else. Main window sometimes attempts to steal focus during update. Often (but not always) a popup warning window appears reporting that tags for certain songs in the batch were not updated for reasons that don't apply. If it matters, my database has over 15000 songs though I rarely update info for more than twenty to thirty files at a time.

This bug (assuming it is one) is hardly something that would have me even consider using a different product, but it sure can be darn annoying. :-/

Media Jukebox PLUS 8.0.365
Install Path: C:\Program Files\J River\Media Jukebox\

CPU: Intel Pentium 4 2275 MHz MMX
Memory: Total - 261 MB, Free - 96 MB
OS: Microsoft Windows XP Workstation 5.1 Service Pack 1 (Build 2600)

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2800.1106
ComCtl32.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
Shell32.dll: 6.00.2800.1106
wnaspi32.dll: Internal ASPI Layer

KingSparta · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2002, 03:34:45 pm »

ubu

you might want to think about upgrading before stating you have a problem. Since there has been about 10 versions since what you currently are running.

ubu · « **Reply #14 on:** September 28, 2002, 04:16:51 pm »

Actually, I am running the current version (379) on the computer on which I do the tag updates. I did the system info on my pc at work since everything except the MJ version is the same.

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** September 28, 2002, 04:25:51 pm »

Just so you know, we realize something is wrong with tagging. We just don't know where or why.

It could be MJ. It's possible.

ID3v2 libraries are changing. ID3v2.2, D3v2.3, and ID3v2.4 are in use now. The standard itself is a problem.

It could be Windows. There have been a lot of changes in the OS's. Service packs and WMP 9.0 beta.

It could be something else. A lot happens on PC's.

Please provide as much detail as you can and be as patient as possible. We'll find it. It will help if you can keep an open mind and not point the finger immediately at MJ.

ashawley · « **Reply #16 on:** September 28, 2002, 10:42:20 pm »

Jim:

May I suggest that you set up one of your QA boxes w/Win XP (Home or Professional as I have the same problem on both versions) with the most recent Service Packs and all the updates and then download ID3-Tagit from http://www.id3-tagit.de. Then go and tag a CD's work of songs in id3-tagit. You can use ID3 v2.3 or v2.4. It doesn't make a difference. Just do something simple like batch change the Artist name on all the files. It takes less than 1 second to do 1 CD.

On MJ it takes me from 3-5 minutes. Hate to point fingers, but when troubleshooting a software problem, well, I look to the source first. Especially when I can duplicate it.

Either way, I wish you luck with this issue, I'm bowing out as I really don't see you standing up and taking credit/blame for it the way I would like. The first rule of customer service is to acknowledge and emphathize--haven't seen that from you guys. I've heard "it's the standard" and now "it COULD be MJ"? C'mon, it IS MJ. Since I got an iPod I don't even need MJ anymore except I liked it to manage my library...but there are alternatives that handle the tagging functions I need. If you get the iPod Plugin working and solve the tagging problem, I'll fire up the program again and see what you have to offer. Until then....

P.S.: Bye the way, in your work on the iPod plugin, be sure to do a little research into iTunes. Their UI as a media player AND as a tool for the iPod is excellent and could be leveraged with other MP3 players. My suggestion for what it's worth.

Flame away folks...
Adam

ubu · « **Reply #17 on:** September 29, 2002, 04:13:50 pm »

It sure is a curious problem since it mainfests itself in different ways and inconsistently. What appears to be consistent, though, (and I'll try to verify this) is that I don't appear to have a problem when working with importing mp3 files that have no pre-existing tags. Only when I import mp3 files that do have either v1 or v2 tags is there sometimes a stall accompanied sometimes by the main window stealing focus during the stall. Even when I remove all tags from newly imported mp3 files, clicking the save button will sometimes result in a delay of up to a minute or two before I can continue. Sometimes, too, MJ will lose focus to another app. Weird, I know.

In the end, though, for me it's no big deal. MJ still does everything I want it to do. After years working in the software development biz, I know how these things work and I know that the problem may very well lie outside of MJ. Much appreciation for all of you who may be working on solving this one.

skidoo · « **Reply #18 on:** September 29, 2002, 05:53:14 pm »

Quote

Just so you know, we realize something is wrong with tagging. We just don't know where or why.

It could be MJ. It's possible.

ID3v2 libraries are changing. ID3v2.2, D3v2.3, and ID3v2.4 are in use now. The standard itself is a problem.

It could be Windows. There have been a lot of changes in the OS's. Service packs and WMP 9.0 beta.

It could be something else. A lot happens on PC's.

Please provide as much detail as you can and be as patient as possible. We'll find it. It will help if you can keep an open mind and not point the finger immediately at MJ.

I'm a paid MJ customer, and I do like it's features as an MP3 library. But I have to concur at least in spirit with Adam on the tagging issue. Clearly there's a problem in MJ's tag-writing code. The feature doesn't perform to the standards met by many other products on the market.

You have my patience, for the time being. But you also have my frustration, and you do not have my credulity. Clean it up please. Make it work the way it should. I want nothing more than to sing MJ's praises from the rooftops. But of all things, the tagging has GOT to be right.

skidoo · « **Reply #19 on:** September 29, 2002, 06:01:57 pm »

Quote

After years working in the software development biz, I know how these things work and I know that the problem may very well lie outside of MJ. Much appreciation for all of you who may be working on solving this one.

After years writing code, designing systems, and managing product development projects in the software industry, I know that you can't blame your product's shortcomings on the operating system. A shortcoming is different from a limitation. The tagging bug is a shortcoming.

But then again, MJ is only 30 or 40 bucks. I forget. And JimH seems to take this MJ thing pretty seriously, so I'm sure they'll figure the problem out eventually [GRIN].

JimHus · « **Reply #20 on:** September 29, 2002, 06:30:33 pm »

I agree that the MP3 tagging has to be corrected. I am sure MJ will get it worked out - even though they have to struggle with the various ID3V* versions.

However, I have always been nonplussed by the "* denotes fields stored in the file tag only"

I could certainly understand the reverse - there might be fields not supported by ID3V2 that MJ wanted to track. But why aren't these fields kept in the MJ database?

While it hasn't been all that critical - with the periodic tag failures it does become critical. With all the other fields we can live with the MP3 tags [maybe] not getting updated. But for these fields we run the risk of simply losing information.

I know you guys are working on the tags, and I'm sure you'll solve it. But please add the remaining tag fields as well, so we can actually backup the full MP3 taginfo.

smOOzz · « **Reply #21 on:** September 29, 2002, 11:57:39 pm »

Within MJ is there any technical reason why one should use ID1 in preference to ID2 versions or is it simply a matter of personal preference taking into account the slower larger file size of V2 and the option of including artwork etc.

www.ID3.org seems to be down at the moment.

Just about to try to tag all my files so I'd prefer to do it right just the once. Any advice appreciated.

gdp2000 · « **Reply #22 on:** September 30, 2002, 01:48:57 am »

I have the same problems too and this is the only reason for me not to buy MJ.

CU

Vermaje · « **Reply #23 on:** September 30, 2002, 08:23:38 am »

? When I import musical medias in MJ8, the n° of each track is frequently (or always !) =0 !

And when I will modify this numbers, MJ8 is unable to modify the ID3 tags !

=> Error !!!

Is it possible that this problems are here ??

drosoph · « **Reply #24 on:** September 30, 2002, 10:38:44 am »

This "slow tagging" problem is exactly why I asked if MJ was "padding" ID3 V2.x tags .... I've been working with Dr. Tag for quite a while now .. and whether ID3 1.1, 2.2, 2.3, or 2.4 ... It can write to a padded Tag a whole heckofa lot quicker than unpadded ...

My guess is the extra space in the tag area (im no expert obviously) allows for quick edits without rewriting the entire .mp3 file ...

There is definitely a problem with the speed at which MJ tags files ...

skidoo · « **Reply #25 on:** September 30, 2002, 10:47:46 am »

Quote

My guess is the extra space in the tag area (im no expert obviously) allows for quick edits without rewriting the entire .mp3 file ...

Exactly. And MP3 files are generally so large anyway that sufficiently padding tags makes total sense. What's an extra 50,000 bytes in a file that's allready 4 or 5 million bytes?

And writing the padded tag values out will be necessarily slow the first time around, assuming the existing tags aren't already padded. But subsequent writes should be relatively quick.

KingSparta · « **Reply #26 on:** September 30, 2002, 11:00:24 am »

well 50,000 is a bit much

but a few 1000 bytes would be good to allow for a cover art picture.

but the pading is second to getting it to save on all id3v2 tags no matter if the tags in the current file is good or bad or what version it is.

I have been playing with MJ9 and the problem is also in there. But like i said copy all ID3v2 Tags to ID3v1, Delete Id3v2 tags and then resave it then works. I went thru that again today.

gdp2000 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 30, 2002, 11:02:16 am »

Are you sure that it only takes only 50000 bytes when you use the maximal lenghts for all the tag infos?

I think making space for album picts will be a problem, too. How do you want to know which dimensions or format the users are using. Maybe this is not necessary, but my Album Covers included in the file are normal 24 bit, 400 x 400 BMP Files.

And another problem is that the progrmmers will have to wirte an new ID3V2 Lib because the original one does not support padding.

CU

drosoph · « **Reply #28 on:** September 30, 2002, 11:03:17 am »

KingS, Only problem I have with the ID3V2 --> ID3v1, remove ID3V2, etc ... is that moving ID3V2 tags to ID3V1 will truncate the fields .... ID3V1 has a small character limit that many songs will surpass ... Causing your information to be corrupted ...

I try to stay away from V1 tags b/c of this problem ...

KingSparta · « **Reply #29 on:** September 30, 2002, 11:15:45 am »

>> Only problem I have with the ID3V2 -->
>> ID3v1, remove ID3V2
yes, but Most tags are less than 30 chrs (Id3v1 limit), comment = 30 chrs

and

Id3v1.1 30chrs all but the comment field and that is 28 chrs.

but for the most part all normal tags will be retained.

>> Causing your information to be corrupted
That is a bit strong, it will just be cut off not corrupted

gdp2000

Dr Tag Has A Changeable Pad Length so it's not like the same thing could happen with MJ to allw each use to change the pad size.

drosoph · « **Reply #30 on:** September 30, 2002, 11:26:18 am »

King, I work with a lot of trance/techno & classical music (nice mix eh?) ... and the titles are very long (to include DJs, clubs or conductors/bands) ... so, the 30 character limit doesnt work for me ... truncated song titles is part of the old school, sorta like MS-DOS 8.3 filename structure ... we're beyond that now

... ID3V2.x is the way to go ... fewer limitations ... but clunkier too !

KingSparta · « **Reply #31 on:** September 30, 2002, 11:47:30 am »

I Understand, and that can be a problem along with clasical music.

But if you look at all music the percent of fields over 30 chrs is low.

they did screwup years ago with the limit in id3v1.1 60-80 chrs would have been better

skidoo · « **Reply #32 on:** September 30, 2002, 01:44:41 pm »

Quote

Maybe this is not necessary, but my Album Covers included in the file are normal 24 bit, 400 x 400 BMP Files.

Holy rack-a-molie man, what are you doing with these album cover images? That's a 450K+ file! Why can't they be JPEGs? Are you that much of a purist? If so, you should maybe consider storing the cover images OUTSIDE the files.

JimH · « **Reply #33 on:** September 30, 2002, 01:50:47 pm »

We should have another build of MJ by tomorrow that will fix the hesitation in tagging. Thanks for your patience and persistance.

drosoph · « **Reply #34 on:** September 30, 2002, 02:06:56 pm »

SWEEEET !!!!

gdp2000 · « **Reply #35 on:** September 30, 2002, 06:28:29 pm »

Yes, yes. Very sweeeeeeeeeeet.

@skidoo: Yes your're right. I'm someone which you call a "Perfektionist" here in Germany. I do not know how it is in English and its to late 4:27 to search for a dictionary, but it should be similar to english.

CU and hopefully a better world with a faster tag-editing MJ tommorow (Or should I call it today).

drosoph · « **Reply #36 on:** October 01, 2002, 02:56:07 pm »

I hope these efforts to speed up ID3 tagging will be carried over to the 9.0 builds

....

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Author Topic: ID3 Tagging (Read 4936 times)

hottuna