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[jolo]

I have a question, which I would like to open a discussion. There is nothing negative in this, but this is to help me get a better handle of this amazing application that I have had for many years.

I am using MC 11.1.79 on my AMD 2800 XP PC that is very much a component made PC.

I asked a queston as to why MC 11 would not let me save as a Image File (.iso), like most burners/rippers. I am of the opinion that a Image file of media especially, is the best way to backup/archive it.

I was answered by being told that MC 11 was really about organizing and playing media files and not so much about ripping/burning/copying.  That response made me wonder all the extremely hard work put in to make MC 11 such a good tool to rip copys of media and burn copies of media. The difference is that MC neads to rip to a official audio codex and not an image file.
MC 11 is easilly fooled going the other way if you have a product like Daemon tools which creates vurtuals drives with a image file.

So my comments are:
 
 Is MC 11 really a medias organizer and audio play, that MC is primarily?

That the burn/rip features are really not the focus, but that it has some extra capabilities, to its media organizational and playing features and that the burning and ripping is better left to other products.

I would like to hear from others on this. 

Do people use the burning/ripping features of MC, or do they rely on other products that focus more on that aspect ?

Thanks,

Jon

[marko]

mc's burner has one of the coolest features on the planet.

The ability to set folder paths and filenames on the cd based around library fields. As far as I know, you won't find that anywhere else.

I've burned a few data dvd's via MC using this feature and if truth be told, they have worked just fine.

I tend not to use it for audio discs as my experience has been that the cd text writing never seems to work out quite the way i expect it to. MC still has a hand in the process mind you, as I've found that gathering the tracks and exporting to an .m3u is ideal. just drag that into a 3rd party burner and off you go.

I'll be honest with you. I don't get your penchant for iso image support?

You already have the files in a digital format.
If you want to back them up to a cd\DVD, why not just burn the data?
putting them into an iso file is not going to compress them any further, so, wherever you would store your iso files, you could simply copy the files directly there. The end result is the same, ie. two digital copies of your selected media.
If you want to be able to burn multiple copies, save the burn list in MC and then burn at will later on?

[hit_ny]

I am of the opinion that a Image file of media especially, is the best way to backuip/archive it.

Pls explain why you think iso is the best way ?

[Mr ChriZ]

MC is about Entertainment and Entertainment Media.
At the end of the day You can't play ISO files, everything MC does you can
play!
It would make more sense for MC to Rip to Div-X/Avi for video, or Rat-DVD which seems
a bit in the early stages at the moment...
You could then play these back in MC..

Ripping to Iso makes about as much sense as MC allowing the writting of word documents me thinks..

I also think MC's burning ripping features are unsurpassed for Entertainment Media.  I rip to APE
losslessly, then when i want to I take APE files and burn them to MP3 CD, or transfer them
to IPod etc... 

[Alex B]

ISO files are good for copying data CDs. They are not as good for audio extraction. For audio CDs a dedicated program with a secure ripping mode is better. I would recommend MC (in secure mode) for ripping separate track files or EAC if disc images are preferred (in secure single disc file + CUE sheet mode).

[jolo]

Okay, a iso backup means storing original media EXACTLY as the original. No conversions, no WAV files. One quick copy, you have it exact. Same with video, where it is dome on a more frequently.

• After I copy to a image file, I can take my original and put it in a safe place, I have an exact replica of the original, better than anything called lossless, this is exact. I never have to take out the original again, unless there is some damage involved on the image copy.
• If I chose to keep a image file online, I can use products like the free daemon tools, Nero's INCD, Elby's virtual drive software to associate the image copy to a virtual drive
• It is then if I choose to listen to the EXACT quality of the original, I can open up ANY audio player and tell it to open up the virtual drive, and bing, it is exactly like having the original media loaded, ready to play, but without the media, that single file image file is broken down in individual songs, just like the original. Nothing sounds better than that does. IT is not lossless, it is a replica of the original source.
• Maybe I want to create some .ogg files from this original CD, so that I can load it on my portable audio player, which happens to be my Palm Tungsten T3 PDA. I call CDEX and have it open my virtual drive, then have it format it as if I had the original, but a whole lot faster because it is not being read from a CD drive, and create some .oog files. I can do the same with MP3 files as well. These are being encoded from a exact copy of the original source. 
• Besides the ability to listen and store a true backup of te original source, an exact image, and listen to it, without having anything in my CD drive at all. If in an emergency of I lost my original CD. It is extremely fast to have MC, Nero, or any product that burns from original media and create a original .CDA CD from this, that will EXACTLY as the original CD was . Do the "fly by" type of burn ,which is blazing fast and doesn't convert from one format to another and bank, there is another original.

Therefore I have unlimited functionality and with the ability to keep my original media oout of harms way.

In the video word, this is used quite frequently with eith .iso or bin and cue files, it is for the same reason.

There are some cool products like ISOBUSTER which is a nice utility to help if needed.

There are also other reasons ti use image files, when storing off assortments of data during a backup to be restored elsewhere, at a later time and maybe on another PC, or after re-formatting a PC.

If I store off a full length move to a inage file. I can do the same thing and assigning that inage file to a virtual drive, then play it back in any of the best movie players, as one just has to point to the original  drive, and you have the original movie source playing without the media.

The last point which is one my kids showed me, but I really don't use, but I do understand. So you did not read this from me !!

One of my boys has installed a game where there is a copy protection scheme where you need to always place the original source media into the CD ROM or elsle the game will not start. Well, if game gets installed and the original CD is stored as an image file, then  usijng Daemon tools again the tell the PC that the image file is a virtual drive, the entire game can be stored and played WITHOUT needed to use the original media to be put into a CD ROM. My kids just tell the software to look at drive H or G or whater it is programed to.

I know from experience with my kids, that they tend to beat the crap out of the original source CDs when they have to always have them around. OF course there is no dust or damage that could occur.

I notice that a lot of bios upgrades and firmware upgrades are can be downloaded as a single image file, then one takes the file and rips the file as the original bios or firmware on a CD, then loads it in and it is an exact copy of the original. In that way, the chances for an error are lessoned quitew a bit.


Thanks,

Jon

I am not telling anyone to enjoy and use image files like I do, but it is an alternative that I really like and has a lot of functionality. I am certainly not a fan of having a lot of media.  But image files are being used more and more in different ways.

[GHammer]

MC is about Entertainment and Entertainment Media.
At the end of the day You can't play ISO files, everything MC does you can
play!
It would make more sense for MC to Rip to Div-X/Avi for video, or Rat-DVD which seems
a bit in the early stages at the moment...
You could then play these back in MC..

Ripping to Iso makes about as much sense as MC allowing the writting of word documents me thinks..

I also think MC's burning ripping features are unsurpassed for Entertainment Media. I rip to APE
losslessly, then when i want to I take APE files and burn them to MP3 CD, or transfer them
to IPod etc...

Ah, but because >your< method is this or that doesn't make it the 'one true way'.
The benefit to any single file is to have the CD duplicated, not individual files.
MC made a passing effort at CUE file support, which would be ok if it were finished.
An ISO could be mounted in a virtual drive and played or ripped at leisure.
No more effort than transcoding an APE/FLAC/WavPack/Whatever

[Mr ChriZ]

Ah, but because >your< method is this or that doesn't make it the 'one true way'.
The benefit to any single file is to have the CD duplicated, not individual files.
MC made a passing effort at CUE file support, which would be ok if it were finished.
An ISO could be mounted in a virtual drive and played or ripped at leisure.
No more effort than transcoding an APE/FLAC/WavPack/Whatever

OK Point taken...
I think a format better than ISO would be an idea though, something that could
store things like ID3, images etc, and why not allow compression and save on disk space?
Also should MC be trying to get round copy protection with regards to games etc?  Thats a bit of an ethical question...
Copy protection is something JRiver could spend all their development time just getting round,
theres plenty of companies that spend there full time on that...
Surely theres got to be boundries as to how far they can spread themselves(even for the one that does it all)?

[Alex B]

Re-read capable secure rippers are better for audio CDs than ISO image copiers. MC's image file + cue ripping function has some problems (e.g. with hidden tracks & pregaps), so the best tool for making exact disc image CD backups is still EAC.

I am not going to write more about this because the information is easily available elsewhere. Please, try e.g. this Google search: exact copy audio CD ISO  site:.hydrogenaudio.org.

[KingSparta]

What is MC 11 meant to be?

A Work Of Art

[JimH]

I think a format better than ISO would be an idea though, something that could
store things like ID3, images etc, and why not allow compression and save on disk space?

We introduced something like this in 1999.  It was a package container that could include music files, images, doc, text, etc with or without DRM.  You can still see the remnants of it here: www.music01.com.  It requires a jmx plug-in to play any of the downloaded content.  If you don't purchase, you get 30 or 60 second samples.  If you do purchase, you get the full track.

I just took a look at it again, and it works well, better than what's out there now.  I had to recover all my licenses and the biggest obstacle was finding my user.rrg license file that identified my account.  After that, everything installed and worked well, though the current release of MC doesn't support some of the features (lyrics, multiple pages of art, bios, etc.) that the package format does.

[Alex B]

This is funny. We introduced something like this in 1999. It was a package container that could include music files, images, doc, text, etc with or without DRM. You can still see the remnants of it here: www.music01.com. It requires a jmx plug-in to play any of the downloaded content. If you don't purchase, you get 30 or 60 second samples. If you do purchase, you get the full track.

I just took a look at it again, and it works well, better than what's out there now. I had to recover all my licenses and the biggest obstacle was finding my user.rrg license file that identified my account. After that, everything installed and worked well, though the current release of MC doesn't support some of the features (lyrics, multiple pages of art, bios, etc.) that the package format does.

Very interesting. I wasn't aware of that. If you check the HA forum you'll find out that the newest trend amongst the people there is to rip in a single file disc image format and store the cue information and secure rip log inside the main audio file tags.

I use rar packages for my lossless album backups. They include disc image ape & apl files and hires cover & booklet scans. I usually keep only high quality lossy versions in my MC library (MP3 or Musepack).

Here is an example of the package contents:


Click to enlarge.

and an example of my album scanning style. (This link also has my version of the "No Cover Art" image.)

[GHammer]

OK Point taken...
Also should MC be trying to get round copy protection with regards to games etc? Thats a bit of an ethical question...
Copy protection is something JRiver could spend all their development time just getting round,
theres plenty of companies that spend there full time on that...

I didn't see the suggestion that MC become a circumvention tool.
Those are illegal under the DCMA

[GHammer]

We introduced something like this in 1999.  It was a package container that could include music files, images, doc, text, etc with or without DRM.  You can still see the remnants of it here: www.music01.com.  It requires a jmx plug-in to play any of the downloaded content.  If you don't purchase, you get 30 or 60 second samples.  If you do purchase, you get the full track.

I just took a look at it again, and it works well, better than what's out there now.  I had to recover all my licenses and the biggest obstacle was finding my user.rrg license file that identified my account.  After that, everything installed and worked well, though the current release of MC doesn't support some of the features (lyrics, multiple pages of art, bios, etc.) that the package format does.

Sounds cool. I'd have tried it.
Just a little ahead of its time...

[jolo]

I have no intention of criticising MC or any other product. I have used EAC and truthfully if you make a backup with EAC and compare it with a backup made with MC, and take a blind listening test, you will not hear a difference. EAC will not make anything sound better than MC 11. Test it and find out.
Where EAC has strength is with poor quality originals, and low quality burn rates. You can do some manual settings to get through media that are scratched.  For normal types of situations, MC is much simpler and produces output at least as good as EAC.

I initially asked at another time how I can save as an Image file. I was told that MC does not do that because it is more of a organizer and player than a product that does ripping and buring and that I should use other products for that.

I was surprised with that answer, because I enjoy the flexibility and the quality of MC as far as that goes, and so much work was put in to make it sooo flexible, to show video and pictures as well.

Whatever anyone thinks is the best way for them is fine with me.  I have used all the processes mentioned and I have found for me, that the most flexible way for me to back up my media is to create a image file.

Just another opinion. I like simple and functional. I am not an engineer and while I find the information on hydrogenaudio.org valuable, like their charts on all of the LAME "alt" settings, I also find that sometimes the discussions get contentious.  The funniest of the discussions is when they get into pages and pages of forum activity about methods that can't even be heard by the human ear !!

About any legal nonsense ... it is mind blowing that I am allowed to backup, but using tools to backup is not legal ?

Most recently, with the Feds basically bought off with money stolen from artists and consumers, the District Attorney of State of New York found enormous fraud with payola and price fixing and collusion between music companies.

Some of best and most successful recordings is simply not published anymore.  I do not do the P2P thing anymore, but the largest buyers of media make up most of the population on P2P networks.

Remember these are the people who said the reel to reel tape players and recorders were going to destroy the record industry. They sued and lost on that one two. In the psat, it has been the technology companies who have beated the RIAA thieves in court.   

Sorry to change the subject, but I have been trying to work with some artists to become independent of the RIAA thieves and their restrictions and to take control of the industry. It can be done if some of the artists would be willing to work together. They can earn about .50 on the dollar instead .2 or .3 on the dollar (maybe if that). 

[shortened by JimH ]

[marko]

We introduced something like this in 1999.  It was a package container that could include music files, images, doc, text, etc with or without DRM.  You can still see the remnants of it here: www.music01.com.

Jim, is movies01.com yours too?

I've not been there for a long time now, but I still have links to 4 movies from that site in my library. I don't know why really, just found them quite thought-provoking.

[Fex]

Jim, is movies01.com yours too?

If you click on 'contact' you will get 'music @ jriver.com'.

[JimH]

Jim, is movies01.com yours too?

I've not been there for a long time now, but I still have links to 4 movies from that site in my library. I don't know why really, just found them quite thought-provoking.

It is.  Here are a few more:
http://www.one01.com/