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[Marty3d]

Just adding to the casualties:
Embassies burn in cartoon protest

In the article, it's stated that the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Syria are burning (they are in the same building). Who's also paying the price of ignorance and hate is Swedens and Chiles embassies (also located there).

It just makes me sad that stupid drawings make people go postal. Haven't the world suffered enough? It feels like you're living in the dark ages, not 2006.

Thank God or Allah or whoever for songs like Beastie Boys - In A World Gone Mad.

[Marty3d]

By the way, has anybody read any statements from the U.N about this matter? Or are they sitting wiggling their toes as usual? I just figure this should be something concerning them. Or will be if people don't calm down.

[hit_ny]

Print cartoon in your (free) country, watch your embassy burn in another.

I'm having probs swallowing this one.

Early Friday, Palestinian militants threw a bomb at a French cultural center in Gaza City, and many Palestinians began boycotting European goods, especially those from Denmark.
"Whoever defames our prophet should be executed," said Ismail Hassan, 37, a tailor who marched through the pouring rain along with hundreds of others in the West Bank city of Ramallah.

"Bin Laden our beloved, Denmark must be blown up," protesters in Ramallah chanted.

In mosques throughout Palestinian cities, clerics condemned the cartoons. An imam at the Omari Mosque in Gaza City told 9,000 worshippers that those behind the drawings should have their heads cut off.

"If they want a war of religions, we are ready," Hassan Sharaf, an imam in Nablus, said in his sermon.

About 10,000 demonstrators, including gunmen from the Islamic militant group Hamas firing in the air, marched through Gaza City to the Palestinian legislature, where they climbed on the roof, waving green Hamas banners.

"We are ready to redeem you with our souls and our blood our beloved prophet," they chanted. "Down, Down Denmark."

LOL.....Riiiiiight,  Gaza is sooooo representative of the whole Arab and by extension muslim world !!  ...a little strip about 360 square miles.

After Israel left, Hamas, known extremist group just won the local election. Hamas controls Gaza. So ...umm yeah..shooting off a few rounds is how they take care of business...

Give em some time, when the locals realise thats all they can do, they just might get kicked out.  The terrorist funding will dry up, go elsewhere where it can create more effective propaganda.

[richard.e.morton]

Although most Muslims are not terrorists,
most terrorists are Muslims.

I tend not to agree...

Jews is Isreal
Catholics and Protestants (e.g. Christians) in Ireland

I would also say that even though we see pictures on teh news of hundred of Muslims deomnstrating, bare in mind that this is _just_ hundreds from a city of possibly millions. That would suggest that it is a minority. Islam teaches peace, however like all religions you can twist the words (the bible says a "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" - which is just one example of justifying violence)

Many Iraqis want us to stay and finish the job.

Many Afganis want us to rid them of the Taliban and ween them off growing heroin (god knows we need to ween them off growing it - they're producing 90% of the UK's supply from the latest figures)

Iran is insular and doesn't get to see the news we do,

actually that goes for most arab states, they are censored and so how can they know what their governemnet is up to. Hell, most elections seem to be rigged over there.

I was watching a TV show and it could justify (with considerable plausability) that religion is the root of all evil. Hey, hhe met a christian preacher that nearly run him over after having a civil discussion about Darwin, which he interpreted to mean that he was calling his kids "animals".

In the end I believe that all beliefs are bad if your not open to changing your views when valid evidence is discovered.

R

[lee269]

I havent read every word of this thread, but it seems we are having a rational debate, which is good.

I agree with most of (the first part) of JadeSaphires post above [EDIT: on previous page]. We have to allow that some are genuinely offended by some things that may seem trivial to us. And protest (in social, economic terms) is a 'reasonable' response to this by 'reasonable' people. If people want to march, boycott Lego or never eat danish pastries or listen to music (via MC!) on their Bang & Olufsen stereos thats up to them.

Violence is not an acceptable response by anyone.

There are people who take 'fundamentalist' views in all religions. A lot of those peoples views are offensive to me. We must not tar everyone with the same brush or label them. Yeah, I think all this reaction to a cartoon is stupid, but I dont believe the 'bullet points' quote from someone (presumably a public figure) - Boortz above is helpful. In fact I think its disgusting.
 

[Mr ChriZ]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4676524.stm

[modelmaker]

I must say I find posting that cartoon on this site to be of poor taste and another example ignorance and of the cultural devide between Christians and Muslims.

According to Islam it is forbidden to create or publish likenesses of the Prophet Mohamed. It is sacreligeous to do so. That is what the Muslims are all in an uproar about.

So your act of posting the cartoon shows your (Jim H) ignorance and lack of respect for another's culture/religion. This has nothing to with government censoreship. This is about lack of respect.

[JimH]

I must say I find posting that cartoon on this site to be of poor taste and another example ignorance and of the cultural devide between Christians and Muslims.

I don't think the issue is taste.  It's freedom of expression.

The Danish paper was taking the blame.  I defend their right to poke fun at anything or even to be tasteless (there's enough of that to go around).

A public outcry by a religious group should not serve to silence free expression.

BTW, like Michael Dukakis, I'm a "card carrying member of the American Civil Liberties Union".  I don't like every cause they choose, but I'd rather err on the side of supporting civil liberties. 

And I'm not a Christian.  I'm probably a Druid.

[Mr ChriZ]

I have a druid cloak 

I'm glad you reminded me actually!  I bought it originally
to take some fun photos on the beach, and have
never actually got round to taking them!

[Marty3d]

According to Islam it is forbidden to create or publish likenesses of the Prophet Mohamed. It is sacreligeous to do so. That is what the Muslims are all in an uproar about.

This is one of the things I can't understand. According to Danish law, it's NOT forbidden to create or publish likenesses of Mohammed. So they can, according to their law, do that if they like, good or bad taste.
But the ones who burn the Danish flag? In many countries THAT is against the law. If it is in Denmark, should they start burning down the Syrian embassy or threaten muslims all over the world?
I don't see this clearly through Islam eyes, forgive me. Please tell me why it is ok to do violent acts against people, and in this case, people from other countries than Denmark who has nothing to do with this dispute, because of this violation against muslim law.

Is the muslim laws above all other laws, including those old stone plates Moses ran around with? Is it as simple as this? And that some elements of the muslim community acts as world police?

Could someone please clarify?

PS. Sorry if I use the words Islam and Muslim wrong, english is not my native language. DS.

[Pink Waters]

Although most Muslims are not terrorists,
most terrorists are Muslims.

Would you agree? If so, is it due to socio economic reasons, religion, both?

Man, terrorism is every where... even in you and me... believe me you will feel it if you saw your daughter is being raped!
but, the difference here is the level of terrorism, is it hight enough to affact the public ?!

the cercomstances that raises the level of terrorism in one's soul, vary from culture to culture... religion to religion and even person to person (how he is raised in the first place to accept the dogma of terrorism and live with it as a habit)

I don't wanna keep it long but .. in a few words in my opinion: "Defending one's property/town/culture/relegion.. etc.. from being raped... is not supposed to be called terrorism!"

[gpvillamil]

...

Although most Muslims are not terrorists,
most terrorists are Muslims.

Would you agree? If so, is it due to socio economic reasons, religion, both?

I encourage consulting the Terrorism Knowledge Base (http://www.tkb.org) for answers to some of those questions. Things that you might find particularly interesting are:

1) breakdown of terrorism incidents over *time*, by region. In particular, the number of Middle East incidents from 1992 to 2006, in relation to the number of incidents from 1968 to 1992.
2) nature of the North American terror incidents.

I was surprised!

[runemail]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/92196327@N00/sets/72057594058058048/

Its stupid to provoke just because you can do so within the law.
Free speech is a powerful tool and should be used with care.
We see this trough the eyes of western media, they don't.

And if this really is about freedom of speech then we should put some pressure on china to, why are we forcing our western democracies on the arabic world and ignoring the rest. I belive china is better candidate for democracy han irak and Palestinia.

Even the Us refuses to aknowledge basic human rights, so its not like we are that civilized over here.

The important thing is to try to understand each other and keep talking, its when we stop talking together things go really bad.

And if everything else fails we should send in our secret weapon this easter:

Our favourite afroamerican, MJ, riding through the middle east on a donkey singing:

There's A Place In
Your Heart
And I Know That It Is Love
And This Place Could
Be Much
Brighter Than Tomorrow
And If You Really Try
You'll Find There's No Need
To Cry
In This Place You'll Feel
There's No Hurt Or Sorrow

There Are Ways
To Get There
If You Care Enough
For The Living
Make A Little Space
Make A Better Place...

If You Want To Know Why
There's A Love That
Cannot Lie
Love Is Strong
It Only Cares For
Joyful Giving
If We Try
We Shall See
In This Bliss
We Cannot Feel
Fear Or Dread
We Stop Existing And
Start Living

Then It Feels That Always
Love's Enough For
Us Growing
So Make A Better World
Make A Better World...

And The Dream We Were
Conceived In
Will Reveal A Joyful Face
And The World We
Once Believed In
Will Shine Again In Grace
Then Why Do We Keep
Strangling Life
Wound This Earth
Crucify Its Soul
Though It's Plain To See
This World Is Heavenly
Be God's Glow

We Could Fly So High
Let Our Spirits Never Die
In My Heart
I Feel You Are All
My Brothers
Create A World With
No Fear
Together We'll Cry
Happy Tears
See The Nations Turn
Their Swords
Into Plowshares

We Could Really Get There
If You Cared Enough
For The Living
Make A Little Space
To Make A Better Place...

Heal The World
Make It A Better Place
For You And For Me
And The Entire Human Race
There Are People Dying
If You Care Enough
For The Living
Make A Better Place
For You And For Me

You And For Me
You And For Me

and muslims and christians wil come together with branches of palm trees to meet him, shouting, 'Hosanna! What an amazing comeback! -- the King of POP!'


(it would be the greatest comback-tour in history, even bigger than the current Stones tour)

[Pink Waters]

muslem, christian, mullah or pope.. breacher or poet who was it wrote..
give anyone species too much rope and he'll hang himself.

"nice point roger waters"

[GHammer]

I am not tolerant of others just because they are different.
I will not conform or compromise just to keep from hurting somebody's feelings.

I do not think every group on the face of the Earth has a right to not be offended.
In fact, I find quite a few groups offensive.

Yet I haven't taken to beheadings, arson, or death threats.

[GHammer]

Print cartoon in your (free) country, watch your embassy burn in another.

I'm having probs swallowing this one.
LOL.....Riiiiiight,  Gaza is sooooo representative of the whole Arab and by extension muslim world !!  ...a little strip about 360 square miles.

After Israel left, Hamas, known extremist group just won the local election. Hamas controls Gaza. So ...umm yeah..shooting off a few rounds is how they take care of business...

Give em some time, when the locals realise thats all they can do, they just might get kicked out.  The terrorist funding will dry up, go elsewhere where it can create more effective propaganda.

So, basically what you are suggesting is that except for a handful of bad actors in the West Bank and Gaza, all is well in the greater Islamic world.

I think you are reaching looking for a way to make this acceptable.
Those are the examples, I'm sure there are many more in the world.
Maybe like the Embassies burning in Syria.
Please let me know what reasons you find to excuse that.

P.S. If you think that the Isreal/Palestine questions will be solved soon, I'd like to talk with you about Amway...

[SirTechMen]

I came to this forum tonight to research this product on the advise of my employees. They have express an interest in setting up an internal music server to access during the day from each terminal while they work. I am very happy to entertain this idea, as I am often flexible when comes to making them happy. I am just little shocked when I read this post. This was not something I thought I would find here.

Couldn't this thread have been started without the picture? Better yet, why not start a Blog on the subject or contribute to another that is already started. Why would a company risk their product by starting a thread like this? Isn't this forum for support of your product? I know some forums are for expressing opinions and ideas and some even for and about the product. But after reading about 100 threads on this forum tonight, it's more than obvious this forum is a means for product support.

As small business owner, this would be the last thing that an employee would post on our forums! Let alone upper management. Or it would be their last post! Surely I would  even be ok with it if they used other fourms to post such subjects as long as it was NOWHERE near our product forums.

Amazing!

[hit_ny]

So, basically what you are suggesting is that except for a handful of bad actors in the West Bank and Gaza, all is well in the greater Islamic world.

I think you are reaching looking for a way to make this acceptable.

Those are the examples, I'm sure there are many more in the world.
Maybe like the Embassies burning in Syria.
Please let me know what reasons you find to excuse that.

You have highlighted the flash points between muslims & the west and portray them as charateristic of the whole...anecdotal. There may be more examples but my point still stands.

It's not acceptable.

P.S. If you think that the Isreal/Palestine questions will be solved soon, I'd like to talk with you about Amway...

Heh, when did i say this ?

I was quite surprised to read that the Israelis withdrew from Gaza. Of course most arab moderates did not see much in it, they said what about the West Bank ?

Gaza is a controlled experiment. If it works well, then there is pressure to withdraw from the West Bank. I dont think it will work well in the short term, Hamas being in power. The episode with the gunman can be excused IMO.

But what about the long term. It puts pressure on Gaza (& Hamas) to make peace, too early to say. The world is watching them.  Baby steps.

This is one of the things I can't understand. According to Danish law, it's NOT forbidden to create or publish likenesses of Mohammed. So they can, according to their law, do that if they like, good or bad taste.
But the ones who burn the Danish flag? In many countries THAT is against the law.

Apparently not in their country, with the flag burning. I guess that's the most non-violent way they have to get the message across. It shows exactly how (some) feel about this issue. If i recall flag burning laws came into effect (post 70s(?)  to counter this form of protest.

What's interesting to note is the frenzy this whipped up, for just a cartoon.

As has already been pointed out, there are exceptions to free speech
- shouting fire in a theatre
- saying bomb in an airport
- publishing anything detrimental to national security
- libel
- hate mongering literature, etc

Not all free countries published this cartoon, are they to be considered not free as a result ?

[GHammer]

Flag burning has repeatedly been ruled legal no matter how many times laws are passed to bar it.

Simple fact is the Muslims are on the wrong side of anything.

The fact that some want to be 'sensitive/tolerant' is up to them.

Kindly do not try to offer one off examples as to why this is not representitive of Islam. All accounts are that it is.

None turn in terrorists.
None are condeming this or that act.

[modelmaker]

This is one of the things I can't understand. According to Danish law, it's NOT forbidden to create or publish likenesses of Mohammed. So they can, according to their law, do that if they like, good or bad taste.
But the ones who burn the Danish flag? In many countries THAT is against the law. If it is in Denmark, should they start burning down the Syrian embassy or threaten muslims all over the world?
I don't see this clearly through Islam eyes, forgive me. Please tell me why it is ok to do violent acts against people, and in this case, people from other countries than Denmark who has nothing to do with this dispute, because of this violation against muslim law.

Is the muslim laws above all other laws, including those old stone plates Moses ran around with? Is it as simple as this? And that some elements of the muslim community acts as world police?

Could someone please clarify?

PS. Sorry if I use the words Islam and Muslim wrong, english is not my native language. DS.

I don't think this is about law, it's about respect for other cultures. Just because the law says you can, doesn't mean you have to go out and insult a whole people.

BTW, like Michael Dukakis, I'm a "card carrying member of the American Civil Liberties Union".  I don't like every cause they choose, but I'd rather err on the side of supporting civil liberties. 

And I'm not a Christian.  I'm probably a Druid.

I wholeheartedly agree with you here.

BTW I am half Danish and I have talked to few of my relatives in the last couple of days and they're pretty annoyed with this particular newspaper as well.

I just think it shows a total disregard for other cultures and is one of the major reasons we "westerners" are always in conflict with the rest of the world. "We" seem to always think it's suposed to be "our way or the highway".

[hit_ny]

Kindly do not try to offer one off examples as to why this is not representitive of Islam. All accounts are that it is.

Eh ?

You condemn all of them, say they are all collectively responsible and then ask them to explain their behavior.

What's wrong with this picture ?
 

None turn in terrorists.

Slight problem, they already blew themselves up.

Or are you suggesting they be turned in for "thinking" about it.

[Marty3d]

I don't think this is about law, it's about respect for other cultures. Just because the law says you can, doesn't mean you have to go out and insult a whole people.

And just because the law says you can't burn down buildings, does it mean you should?

I'm not really sure why you say this. If someone calls you names, and you go burning down their house, how is that about respect? Is that a way to educate people in respect or? I'm glad I didn't see that kind of tutoring when I went to school.

The damage done by each act is not proportional to each other. Example:

Denmark:
- Posting a satiric picture

The muslim community:
- Demonstrations
- Burning Danish flags
- Burning down Denmarks, Swedens, Norways and Chiles embassies in Damaskus
- Threatening Scandinavian people into fleeing muslim areas
- Burning down Denmarks embassy in Beirut

In my world, I could absolutely agree to protesting by demontrations and leaders of Islam requesting an apology from the Danish publisher. But the rest, is it about respect? I dont' understand...

[JimH]

And now for something completely different....

Closing this thread.

My compliments on a civilized discussion of a difficult topic.