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[BlueGlow]

[Updated list 3/9/06]
Here's a progress report on where MC+iPod stands versus iTunes+iPod right now.
Please add to the thread to voice your support for a feature or point out features missing from the list.
Note: None of these features is easy to implement, Apple does not document the iPod data format.

MC is a much better music player and media manager that I use for everything other than syncing my iPod.

MC+iPod advantages:
  * MC is much faster than iTunes when managing files, no comparison.
  * It felt like the MC sync was faster as well, but I didn't measure it.
  * MC has better progress messages during sync.
     I really like having time estimates.
  * MC's smartlists are more useful, flexible and powerful.
     This really helps keep the media on the iPod organized.
  * MC just keeps getting better for for organizing and managing media.
     iTunes is very weak in this area.
  * MC can play AAC and MOV files now. (though not as well as iTunes yet)
  * In MC the iPod options can be set when the iPod is not connected.
     (can iTunes set different options for multiple iPods?)
  * Many more that aren't listed. MC is powerful and flexible. iTunes is pretty and slow.

MC+iPod areas for improvement:
  * MC displays unecessary warning messages on sync.
         - Unsupported file types
         - Possible duplicate file warnings
         (JimH says it shouldn't. I'll check again in a few days.)
  * MC's option window for selecting playlists to sync is very small.
  * MC doesn't yet fully support some standard iPod features:
      - Remember playback position
          - Can't set by track
          - No sdk support
          - Is set to true for new podcasts
      - Skip when shuffling (partial support)
         - Can't set by track           
         - No sdk support
         - Is set to true for new podcasts
      - On-the-go playlist sync from iPod to PC
      - Dynamic/Live playlists (on the iPod)
      - Lyrics on the iPod
      - Equalizer presets by track
      - Volume adjustments by track
      - Start/Stop time by track (what is this used for?)
  * M4A audio files were categorized as video in MC.
  * In MC, most Apple format files are not fully supported
       - no tags (name, artist, duration, etc.)
       - no thumbnails/cover art
  * MC has to "Initialize iPod" before it can be used with MC.
       - JimH: This is usually not necessary.
  * MC crashes when it tries to sync to an iTunes sync'd iPod.
       - JimH: Probably due to iPod service running in background.
  * The Initialize iPod menu item is hidden as a right-click option on the iPod device.
       - This option is probably not needed by most users now according to JimH.
  * Photo issues as described by Micah below.
  * MC can not encode AAC audio format.
  * MC does not support the "is part of a compilation" flag and features info
  * The iPod alarm won't use playlists sync'd by MC

[JimH]

Thanks for all the details.

  * MC displays unecessary warning messages on every sync.

It shouldn't if you have set MC to auto-synch.  What are the messages?

  * MC's option window for selecting playlists to sync is too small.
  * MC doesn't yet support some standard iPod features:
        Remember playback position

Bookmarks were added recently.  Explain what you mean and we might get it done.

        Skip when shuffling

Also there now, but maybe not fully exposed.  Used for podcasts.

        On-the-go playlist sync

Not sure what you mean.

        Dynamic/Live playlists

Are you familiar with Smartlists in MC? 

  * M4A audio files were categorized as video in MC.

We'll take a look.

  * In MC, most Apple format files are second class citizens - no tag or thumbnail support.
    They just show up as an MC thumbnail with filename, no art, title, artist, etc.. (mov, m4a, m4v, etc.)

Apple doesn't cooperate, so our support isn't the same as theirs.

    It's great that they work, but it's not enough to make me switch back yet.
  * MC has to "Initialize iPod" before it can be used with MC.

You don't have to in most cases.

  * MC crashes when it tries to sync to an iTunes sync'd iPod.

The ipod software running in the background may prevent a sync.  Try killing it.

  * The Initialize iPod menu item is hidden as a right-click option on the iPod device.
     I know where it is, but I hesitate to recommend MC to average iPod users who
     might be confused.

Don't use it.

Other:
  * I'm never sure if I can use iTunes and MC on the same iPod without corrupting the iPod db.

If your iPod is up to date (ipodupdater has been run), this should not be a problem.

[bennyd]

Dynamic/Live playlists

Are you familiar with Smartlists in MC? 

I think BlueGlow means Dynamic playlists ON the iPod, not in MC.

eg a dynamic playlist that show the recently played files.

On the iPod when playing a file, the playlists gets automatic updated on the iPod.

[micahmj11]

First off, I have to say that MC11.1 is an iTunes killer in my opinion.  I no longer feel a need to to use it, as MC can now upload album art, videos, photos, and podcasts to the iPod, and it does it in a very efficient manner.  Great job, guys!

On-the-go playlist sync

Not sure what you mean.

You can create playlists right on the iPod itself (called on-the-go playlists).  In iTunes, when you synced an iPod with a new on-the-go playlist on it, iTunes would save that playlist.  Since you cannot name the playlist when you create it on the iPod, iTunes saves it with a generic name like playlist 01.  You can then rename it once it is saved on iTunes, and the next time you sync, the name of the playlist will be updated on the iPod.

Currently, with MC, when you sync an iPod with an on-the-go playlist, the playlist is deleted off the iPod.  It effectively makes the on-the-go feature useless.  This feature has been around for quite some time, since about 2003, so support would be greatly appreciated.

Other iPod issues that I see remaining:

1.  Lyric support--The newer iPod versions will show lyrics of a song if available.  This seems like it would be easy to impliment.

2.  Better video support--videos are not yet properly sorted on the iPod in the correct menus (TV Shows, Music Videos, etc.)  Currently, they are all lumped together as movies.  Also, I am still having difficulty importing m4v files into MC to begin with, and when I do get them in there, MC does not know their length or bitrate.  Since these files have no stored length, once they are synced to the iPod, the iPod is not able to fast forward through them.  This is not a problem with mp4 files, though.

3.  Podcast issues--support for the iPod podcast menu system is now available and it works pretty well.  However, after you listen to a podcast on the iPod, the little blue dot in front of it's name disappears to indicate that the podcast has been listened to.  But whenever the iPod is synced, all the blue dots reappear again as if the podcasts had not been listened to.

4.  Photo support--MC currently handles photos on the iPod better than iTunes does.  Good job.  In iTunes, the photos are automatically organized by the file folder they are stored in.  Not the best way to organize them in my opinion.  In MC, they are organized by the album tag, which makes it easier to organize them without having to physically move the files around in windows.  However, right now, if you make a change to a photo's album tag to organize it differently on the iPod, MC is not triggered to resync the photo if it is already on the iPod (even if you hit the recheck sync button.)  This should be corrected.  And on a personal note, I am still having a problem outputting photo slide shows to the tv if I have over a certain number of pictures stored on my iPod.  It would be great if we can figure this out.

Once again, I cannot give you guys enough credit for the amazing product you have created.  I am a big iPod user, so this new version has been great.  I look forward to any progress you may make with the above issues.

Micah

[lOth]

I think BlueGlow means Dynamic playlists ON the iPod, not in MC.

eg a dynamic playlist that show the recently played files.

On the iPod when playing a file, the playlists gets automatic updated on the iPod.

We had that discussion before. The main problem seems to be that MC would have first to distinguish between its more complex smartlists that can't be exported as such to an iPod (for instance, the iPod just can't handle a smartlist that uses tempo as one of its criteria) and more basic smartlists (e.g. recently played tracks) that could be exported as dynamic playlists to the iPod. In short, I guess MC could send dynamic playlists to the iPod but the basic condition would be that these smartlists wouldn't be anymore complex than the ones you can make with iTunes. I think there's no way around this as it is due to an iPod limitation.

[BlueGlow]

Hi Jim,

It shouldn't if you have set MC to auto-synch.  What are the messages?

Warning messages for unsupported file types and possible duplicate files.

Bookmarks were added recently.  Explain what you mean and we might get it done.

I have explained in a couple of threads and I do expect that it will get done, that's why I didn't provide details here. I meant complete support for "remember playback position" aka bookmars and "skip when shuffling":
 - Set on a track by track basis
 - Set default values for new podcasts
 - SDK support

  On-the-go playlist sync - not sure what you mean

On-the-go playlists created on the iPod are copied from the iPod to iTunes when the iPod is sync'd.

Are you familiar with Smartlists in MC?

Very familiar.  I was referring to smartlists where the rules are calculated on the iPod. BennyD explained it nicely. Another example would be a playlist where any song rated 5 stars would be added to the playlist as soon as it was rated.

We'll take a look.Apple doesn't cooperate, so our support isn't the same as theirs.

I know it's a hassle and that Apple doesn't help. I wanted to let you know that this was an important feature for anyone who has these file types. I didn't have a problem with this before having a video iPod and these new enhanced aac podcasts, but now I have a lot of downloaded m4a audio podcasts and mov videos that MC has trouble with.

You don't have to in most cases. The ipod software running in the background may prevent a sync. If your iPod is up to date (ipodupdater has been run), this should not be a problem.

That's good news. iTunes was not running, but the iPod helper service was still running (forgot to kill it) but it wasn't set to launch iTunes or do anything automatically. MC didn't have a problem syncing the iPod with the  iPod service running after I had initialized the iPod with MC.

[BlueGlow]

... The main problem seems to be that MC would have first to distinguish between its more complex smartlists ... and more basic smartlists (e.g. recently played tracks) that could be exported as dynamic playlists to the iPod. ... I think there's no way around this as it is due to an iPod limitation.

To support this feature, MC would need to add an iPod smartlist type or filter that only allowed the limited set of iPod playlist rules to be added to smartlists tagged as "iPod Dynamic/Live" playlists. It would not be practical to down-convert full MC smartlists to iPod smartlists.

[lOth]

It would not be practical to down-convert full MC smartlists to iPod smartlists.

if at all doable...

[BlueGlow]

First off, I have to say that MC11.1 is an iTunes killer in my opinion.  I no longer feel a need to to use it, as MC can now upload album art, videos, photos, and podcasts to the iPod, and it does it in a very efficient manner.  Great job, guys!

For fully supported features, this is absolutely true.

You can create playlists right on the iPod itself (called on-the-go playlists).  In iTunes, when you synced an iPod with a new on-the-go playlist on it, iTunes would save that playlist. ... Currently, with MC, when you sync an iPod with an on-the-go playlist, the playlist is deleted off the iPod.  ... This feature has been around for quite some time, since about 2003, so support would be greatly appreciated.

Great explanation, thanks.

Other iPod issues that I see remaining: ... lyrics ... better video support ... podcast issues ... photo issues ...

Thanks, I knew I had missed some things. I hope this will turn into a sticky thread with a catalog of iPod issues and unsupported features. They may never all be supported, but it saves a lot of time to find them in one place.

[BlueGlow]

if at all doable...

It's possible to do, JRiver may not find it worthwhile, but the format is documented.

[BlueGlow]

Jim,
Could you please turn this into a sticky thread?

I'll update the first message and it should save a lot of time when we want to know what we should expect from MC's iPod support.

[tgack]

Count my vote for one of the solutions discussed above to implement the easier smartlists as dynamic on the ipod.  This way I can rate things on my ipod and see my "top hits" playlists updated immediately without having to resynch to media center.

Also, lyrics would be a very big help. They do seem like they should be a quicker one to implement as they are already partially there... on some of the podcasts I use that have lyrics (they often put the transcript of the dialogue in the lyrics field), I can actually see the lyrics after synching with J River and then opening iTunes and viewing the GetInfo of the file loaded onto my ipod.  So I know J River is sending some of the lyric data during synch, but it seems like it must not be setting a flag or storing the data in the ipod db in exactly the rigth way to allow it to be viewed on the iPod.

[BlueGlow]

I should add that I know that none of this is easy and Apple only makes it more difficult by not documenting  their formats and changing them often.

I just updated the list with more features.

[BlueGlow]

Wouldn't it make most sense to just use iTunes.
After all it is their techonology.
They know ipod, are much bigger than JRiver, and have the resources to make this work correctly.

It might make sense if iTunes could do what JRiver Media Center could do.
And it might make sense if Apple listened to their customers like JRiver did.

But iTunes will never have the speed and features that make MC so nice to use.
And Apple makes great products but they aren't known for listening to their customers.

Media Center is the best media player out there and there are many of us who would like to be able to take advantage of its power with our favorite media device.

I've owned and recommended Media Jukebox/Center for years and JRiver has done a good job of supporting the iPod with limited resources. Until they are ready to give up on the iPod, I will continue to beta test and offer feedback.

[PollyQ]

To support this feature, MC would need to add an iPod smartlist type or filter that only allowed the limited set of iPod playlist rules to be added to smartlists tagged as "iPod Dynamic/Live" playlists. It would not be practical to down-convert full MC smartlists to iPod smartlists.

When connected to Exchange, MS Outlook provides functionality somewhat similar to this.  More complicated inbox rules are designated as "client-only", meaning that you need to have Outlook running on your desktop for them to execute, while the simpler rules can be run from the server without Outlook running.  The user is notified when the rule is created if it can only run on the client.

[BlueGlow]

When connected to Exchange, MS Outlook provides functionality somewhat similar to this.

Good example, I've often feel like Outlook is an unsupported third party client for Exchange.   

I wonder how many people actually use the dynamic smartlists on the iPod. I haven't tried them, have you?

[BartMan01]

I wonder how many people actually use the dynamic smartlists on the iPod. I haven't tried them, have you?

I did.  They are very handy for when I am out of town for a week or two.  Changes to the files on the iPod (ratings changes, play count, etc.) cause the play lists to dynamically change.  I realize the same thing happens when you re-sync the iPod in MC, but if you are on the road these changes don't happen until you get home.

One example:  A 'not yet rated' dynamic list so I can listen to and rate unrated songs while on the plane (or the hotel or wherever).  If I go through and rate a few dozen random songs in the unrated list, I want them to drop off that list - not stick around until I get home a week later.

[BlueGlow]

One example:  A 'not yet rated' dynamic list so I can listen to and rate unrated songs while on the plane (or the hotel or wherever).  If I go through and rate a few dozen random songs in the unrated list, I want them to drop off that list - not stick around until I get home a week later.

Ah, great idea, I could use that playlist.

[Galley]

You forot one very important thing; MC does not have an AAC encoder. 

[BlueGlow]

You forot one very important thing; MC does not have an AAC encoder. 

Yeah, I guess that would be a feature difference. I'll add it.

[lOth]

maybe this is a bit OT since it's about third-party plug-ins and it goes beyond the scope of basic iPod functionnalities, but to keep in line with my obsession of the moment : the iScrobbler plug-in for iTunes will cache your iPod playcounts and send them to last.fm. The current audioscrobbler plug-in for MC is very far from doing such a thing.

In a general way there are third party plug-ins for iTunes that will interact in various ways with your iPod (e.g. extract music from the iPod, send RSS feeds, weather info, sync contacts, calendar, notes, etc...). Admittedly (but this is from my own point of view) not all of these plug-ins are very useful and offer functionnalities that are very tangential to what would expect of a music player and I believe similar plug-ins could well be written for MC, but the fact remains that at the moment these plug-ins are available for iTunes and not MC.

[BlueGlow]

I believe similar plug-ins could well be written for MC, but the fact remains that at the moment these plug-ins are available for iTunes and not MC.

Other than scrobbler, what would you use?

[lOth]

Other than scrobbler, what would you use?

Frankly, none of the other plug-ins that I know of. But note that there might be some good iPod related plug-ins that I've never heard of because I uninstalled iTunes a very long time ago. Please note as well that I have a PDA so I'm not too interested in syncing any PIM data with the iPod but others might be.

[weston]

I was an MJ8 user recently converted to MC11 with an iPod.  I'm using 11.1.111 now and I can only get smartlists to sync using the "manual mode"  otherwise, it only grabs the non-grouped playlists.  Seems like this shouldn't be an issue.??

Also, I strongly second the request to download on-the-go playlists and saved playlists "New Play List 1" "New Play List 2" etc. from the iPod.  Is that planned for a release yet?

Lastly, an m4a->mp3 converter would be handy.  I'm not sure if I just can't find one, but I can't burn CDs with any of my m4a files.   The iTunes converter is only 160kbps...

Great job guys.  I'm so stoked I can continue to use MC and not have to deal with iTunes.

--Wes

[Neoddd]

I wonder how many people actually use the dynamic smartlists on the iPod. I haven't tried them, have you?

+1 . It's a very useful functionality !

[weston]

+1 . It's a very useful functionality !

VERY Useful!

[tgack]

One thing I didn't see mentioned on this list of areas to improve on is the compilation flag or the ability to send the Album Artist (Auto) to group albums with various artists together.

[gk666999]

Count my vote for one of the solutions discussed above to implement the easier smartlists as dynamic on the ipod. 

Agreed. Count my vote as well. I am willing to pay more for MC if this feature implemented. A set of dynamic-enabled playlists would be fery helpful. Of course, we'll have to give up on many advanced smartlist-building expressions(fields), but they can be used in non-dynamic playlists.

[BlueGlow]

One thing I didn't see mentioned on this list of areas to improve on is the compilation flag or the ability to send the Album Artist (Auto) to group albums with various artists together.

Wow, I didn't even know these features existed. Do you use them?
Taming iTunes for Classical Music

[BlueGlow]

One thing I didn't see mentioned ... the ability to send the Album Artist (Auto) to group albums with various artists together.

Can you describe this feature for me?

[tgack]

I am referring to a way to get a mix album or soundtrack album, which often contain songs by various artists, to be grouped together on the iPod.  iTunes & iPod provides this functionality through a check box called the compilation flag.  I presume this may be a non-conventional ID3 tag.  It's functionality on the iPod is actually discussed in the link from your previous post --> Taming iTunes for Classical Music (But you'll find the tag would be of little benefit in their tagging methodology used on that website becuase they are not using a true album name in the album field.)

J River also has a similar capability to automatically identify and group multi-artist albums together under the (Multiple Artists) value of the the Album Aritst (Auto) field.

I am simply proposing that J River should either expose the iPod tag used for compilations or automatically assign it during synchronization/transfer based on the Album Aritst (Auto) field.

This has been previosuly discussed/requested in these posts...

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=31612.0

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=31484.0

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=30053.0

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=29289.0

[qazwsx]

I am referring to a way to get a mix album or soundtrack album, which often contain songs by various artists, to be grouped together on the iPod.  iTunes & iPod provides this functionality through a check box called the compilation flag.  I presume this may be a non-conventional ID3 tag.  It's functionality on the iPod is actually discussed in the link from your previous post --> Taming iTunes for Classical Music (But you'll find the tag would be of little benefit in their tagging methodology used on that website becuase they are not using a true album name in the album field.)

J River also has a similar capability to automatically identify and group multi-artist albums together under the (Multiple Artists) value of the the Album Aritst (Auto) field.

I am simply proposing that J River should either expose the iPod tag used for compilations or automatically assign it during synchronization/transfer based on the Album Aritst (Auto) field.

I wholeheartedly second that proposal. Currently the absence of that feature is the only thing stopping me from uninstalling iTunes and using J River instead (and recommending it to all my iPod-using friends!). In my collection I have 828 artists but only 266 album artists. I use the "compilation" tag so that only the 266 album artists appear in the "Artists" menu on the iPod. The "compilation" feature appeared in the latest generation of iPod and it's so useful that I bought a new iPod just to get it. Using J River for my iPod, without that feature, would be inconceivable.

[BlueGlow]

-- When remember last playback position is true, iTunes transfers last playback position to/from iPod during syncs.

-- iTunes shows a blue circle icon to indicate unplayed podcasts. This is not the same as the last played or playcount properties. Once the podcast has been partially played the blue icon is not displayed. There doesn't seem to be any user accessible track property corresponding to this behavior.

[micahmj11]

Support for lyrics has been added in build 11.1.162.  See this thread:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=32969.0

[olarte]

Well I for one can't get lyrics Syncing to work...