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[Alex B]

4. Fixed: The last few bytes of audio would not always get output -- causing a pop in gapless playback. (introduced in 122)

This hasn't bee fixed for me -- I'm still getting the same problem as before with wav files.  I hear a little pop at song transitions on wav files from "The Wall."  This happens both over Media Server and with files played off the local drive.  It sounds exactly the way it did before this build.

It fixed the problem with my short ape clips. I converted them to wave and also the short wave files are fine now.

I am currently converting "The Wall" album to wave track files. I'll report later how it works.

[JimH]

The old thread is here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=32164.0

[lalittle]

I am currently converting "The Wall" album to wave track files. I'll report later how it works.

That's the album I've been using to test this issue.  The tracks I typically use to test this are the transitions between "Vera" and "Bring the Boys Back Home," and between "Bring the Boys Back Home" and "Comfortably Numb."  These transitions usaully cause pops.

Larry

[Pink Waters]

you should also consider the playback frequent hang/lockup

[JimH]

We will take a look at any problem you report, but please disable any third party plug-ins, visualizations spam blockers, popup blockers, virus checkers, etc. that you use while running MC.

Please also report whether you use a USB drive or network drive for any part of your library.

If MC had a "frequent hang/lockup" problem, we would be flooded with complaints.

[Pink Waters]

I know that it sounds like new.. but I am just sharing...

If I posted a MC log would help ?

[JimH]

If I posted a MC log would help ?

Please post the last 100 lines of a log after any crash.

[Alex B]

That's the album I've been using to test this issue.  The tracks I typically use to test this are the transitions between "Vera" and "Bring the Boys Back Home," and between "Bring the Boys Back Home" and "Comfortably Numb."  These transitions usaully cause pops.

On my PC the wave files seem to play gaplessly.

Also, the disk writer outputs of MC11.1.131 and foobar2000 are identical. I used the diskwriter output mode in both programs and wrote those three Pink Floyd tracks to combined output files:

INFO (CORE) : startup time: 406 ms
INFO (foo_bitcompare) : Comparing:
INFO (foo_bitcompare) : location: "file://D:\Test\Disk Writer Output (MC).wav" (0)
INFO (foo_bitcompare) : location: "file://D:\Test\Disk Writer Output (fb2k).wav" (0)
INFO (foo_bitcompare) : No differences in decoded data found.
INFO (foo_bitcompare) : Finished successfully.

[lalittle]

On my PC the wave files seem to play gaplessly.

That's interesting.  My wav files were ripped a while back, so I'll try re-ripping them with the new build and see what happens.

Larry

[Pink Waters]

I Tested yesterday the gapless playback of Mp3 files again but this time with 2 mp3 files contains a quiet 1 sustained note (so I can notice the best as I can) and the result is: the number of pops and clicks in the gap has been reduced but not gone away.. and I can still hear the gap with its low pops and clicks!...

[JimH]

Check your Windows volume controls and make sure your Mic is muted.

[Matt]

Remember that perfect gapless playback of MP3s may not be possible. (depending on the mp3)

If gapless playback of WAV or APE files produces bit-perfect output, than I think MC is doing its job.  AlexB's post indicates that he's confirmed this.

[Pink Waters]

I'm convinced that it will never be 100% gapless playback..
but I see that its not as gapless (Any persentage) as before.. according to my last couple of weeks listening experience (All of them are gapless albums)

[Mr ChriZ]

Maybe you could upload some samples like Alex did,
and see if you can work out which version was good,
and where it went bad?

[hit_ny]

I'm convinced that it will never be 100% gapless playback..
but I see that its not as gapless (Any persentage) as before.. according to my last couple of weeks listening experience (All of them are gapless albums)

Why don't you rip mixed albums with CUE then ?

I have nearly 1000 cds, ripped + imported into MC in this way and it works great...all in mp3 too. Your gapless problem is history and the big mp3 file will be gapless on any mp3 player out there.

[Pink Waters]

Cause they are Purchased music, not ripped,

BTW,
Matt,. I'm just sent you the log file which was in the previous run before MC crashes on shutdown

[ADDiCT]

There are small low-volume "clicks" between tracks that played seamlessly in previous builds. Can't tell with which build this has started, though. Currently, I'm playing "K&D Sessions" (mixed), MP3 VBR Extreme (LAME 3.98a3). Other albums encoded with different encoders/bitrates do also show this behaviour. The same effect happens sometimes when fast forwarding/backwarding, too.

Edit: I'm aware that single-track-mp3's cannot be really "gapless" by the design of the mp3 codec. But MC did a very good job in "hiding" the transitions between mixed tracks. The low-volume clicks are something i didn't hear in MC until now.

[Matt]

Here's the tail of the log:

1963110: General: CInterfacePlugins::CleanUp: Start
1963110: General: CInterfacePlugins::CleanUp: Releasing plugin: Playing Now
1963125: General: CInterfacePlugins::ReleasePlugin: Start
1963125: General: CInterfacePlugins::ReleasePlugin: Plugin: Playing Now
1963141: General: CInterfacePlugins::ReleasePlugin: Calling terminate

It looks like the "Terminate" function in the Playing Now plugin is crashing.  Has anyone else seen this?

[Matt]

I played around with old and new builds.  

The current MC 11.1 build appears bit-perfect with APE or WAV files.

MP3 files don't seem to have changed between build 130 and builds going a long ways back.

However, tonight's build adds this:

Changed: Increased the head / tail silence threshold (but not inside track threshold) for "do not play silence" option. (allows cleaner gapless sound of MP3 files)

It produces very nice results with the tests I tried.

[Pink Waters]

Thanks Matt in advance!

[lalittle]

Changed: Increased the head / tail silence threshold (but not inside track threshold) for "do not play silence" option. (allows cleaner gapless sound of MP3 files)

It produces very nice results with the tests I tried.

I just did some tests with this using various transitions between mp3s from albums such as "The Wall."  As one would of course expect, how well the "remove silence" option works depends entirely on the specific transition.  I found that in some cases, it actually seemed to work really well, producing in effect a gapless transition (this seems to be the case with the "louder" transitions.)  In other cases, however, I could still hear a small gap/pop, which sounded very similar to "not" using the "remove silence" option.

The "problem" I encountered, however, was in the transitions between songs that were "supposed" to have a bit of silence between them.  In these cases, the effect was distracting, producing a sudden "jump" to the next song that was quite jarring.  There were also some cases where too much audio was removed, actually cutting off a small bit of audio that I'm used to hearing.

The end result is therefore mixed in my opinion.  It makes some transitions better and some worse.

Thanks again for pursuing this,

Larry

[hit_ny]

Why the requirement to use "remove silence" to make use of the improved gapless play ?

[GHammer]

I'd rather not have the new transition method for the reason that some selection have intentional low or silent endings that will be stepped on.

[Pink Waters]

I just did some tests with this using various transitions between mp3s from albums such as "The Wall."  As one would of course expect, how well the "remove silence" option works depends entirely on the specific transition.  I found that in some cases, it actually seemed to work really well, producing in effect a gapless transition (this seems to be the case with the "louder" transitions.)  In other cases, however, I could still hear a small gap/pop, which sounded very similar to "not" using the "remove silence" option.

The "problem" I encountered, however, was in the transitions between songs that were "supposed" to have a bit of silence between them.  In these cases, the effect was distracting, producing a sudden "jump" to the next song that was quite jarring.  There were also some cases where too much audio was removed, actually cutting off a small bit of audio that I'm used to hearing.

The end result is therefore mixed in my opinion.  It makes some transitions better and some worse.

Thanks again for pursuing this,

Larry

I can Condirm/Reproduce this

Edit: Matt, can you tweak gapless playback to work out with "remove silence" disabled ?

[lalittle]

Why don't you rip mixed albums with CUE then ?

In my case, it's because the files need to work with iPods, which doesn't support CUE files.  Also, as Pink Waters pointed out, when you purchase music online, they come as individual tracks.

Larry

[lalittle]

That's interesting.  My wav files were ripped a while back, so I'll try re-ripping them with the new build and see what happens.

I just tried this and noticed the exact same pop at the beginning of "Comfortably Numb."  I took a close look at the waveform and discovered that the pop is in the song -- I can see it when I zoom into the waveform far enough, and I can hear it when I play the actual CD.  What are the chances that there would just happen to be a flaw right in the beginning of one of the songs I was using to test this issue?

What I'm unclear about is "why" this flaw is there.  This is my only CD of The Wall, so at this point I have no idea if it's inherent to the CD, or if the problem is just on MY specific CD.  I ripped in secure mode and I got a full "100%" report on all tracks with ZERO retries.  I would have thought that a physical flaw on the disc would have showed up as needing re-tries, but this didn't happen.

I'll see if I can get another copy of this CD to test, but in the mean time, if anyone can listen to a copy of "Comfortably Numb" from "The Wall"  (studio, not live) and tell me if there is a pop RIGHT after the music starts, I'd appreciate it.  The pop occurs at pretty much exactly 0.5 seconds into the song (i.e. at 00:00:500).  I just used the MC "Media Editor" to view and listen to this spot.

Thanks,

Larry

[JimH]

What I'm unclear about is "why" this flaw is there.  This is my only CD of The Wall, so at this point I have no idea if it's inherent to the CD, or if the problem is just on MY specific CD.  I ripped in secure mode and I got a full "100%" report on all tracks with ZERO retries. 

When did you rip it?  The gogo encoder was added as a faster option two ro three weeks ago.  Please check Alex B's log of updates here, and the date of the file.

Also, please try ripping again, with both encoders.

[Alex B]

I think Larry is speaking about uncompressed wave files this time.

Larry, could you rip the complete CD to single wave file (the mode is available in advanced ripping options), cut a few seconds around the track boundary and provide a file link? I could compare the clip with my The Wall album.

[lalittle]

Alex is correct -- I'm just referring to the wave file in this particular post, so there is no "encoder" issue for this particular issue.

What I was saying in the last post is that the pop is NOT due to the track boundary in this case -- it's in the actual waveform JUST after the start of the song (Comfortably Numb) and I notice it on the CD as well.  The pop is right as the initial beat of music in "Comfortably Numb" starts -- it happens at 00:00:449 according to the "Media Editor" in MC.  (Note that I was mistaken when I initially said 00:00:500 originally -- I think I was looking at the mp3 at that time.  I'll correct the mistake in the orginal post.)

Alex -- If I listen to the first second of the song, I can hear it, and if I zoom WAY into 00:00:449, I can see it.  Can you check this out for me on your track?  If I misunderstood your request and you still want a file from me, please let me know.

Thanks to everybody for helping out with this,

Larry

[Pink Waters]

The Click/Pop you are talking about its not an MC problem it does exist in the beginning of the song itself, and there is another one too in the beginning of the track "The show Must Go On"

I'm testing now with another thing to be correct, I don't use songs or specific album...

I just played a 1 sustained note with my electric guitar and recorded it in one file,.. then I splitted it into 2 files and then I go play them with MC (after assigining the right track number for each file if 1 or 2) then the problem exist and I hear the pop and the gap too between the tracks.,

[JimH]

What Matt said above:

Remember that perfect gapless playback of MP3s may not be possible. (depending on the mp3)

If gapless playback of WAV or APE files produces bit-perfect output, than I think MC is doing its job.  AlexB's post indicates that he's confirmed this.

Please test with Windows Media Player.

[Pink Waters]

I made a 2 sample files from "Amused To Death" album

Here is The Sample Files

Please, anyone see this,.. download and test them with gapless playback and report the pop/click between the gap...

[LonWar]

Sorry Pink.... I don't hear any clicks or pops...

Settings:

Switch Tracks - Gapless
Seek Gapless

[Alex B]

Alex is correct -- I'm just referring to the wave file in this particular post, so there is no "encoder" issue for this particular issue.

What I was saying in the last post is that the pop is NOT due to the track boundary in this case -- it's in the actual waveform JUST after the start of the song (Comfortably Numb) and I notice it on the CD as well.  The pop is right as the initial beat of music in "Comfortably Numb" starts -- it happens at 00:00:449 according to the "Media Editor" in MC.  (Note that I was mistaken when I initially said 00:00:500 originally -- I think I was looking at the mp3 at that time.  I'll correct the mistake in the orginal post.)

Alex -- If I listen to the first second of the song, I can hear it, and if I zoom WAY into 00:00:449, I can see it.  Can you check this out for me on your track?  If I misunderstood your request and you still want a file from me, please let me know.

Thanks to everybody for helping out with this,

Larry

The click is on my CD too. I made a short sample directly from the disc image wave file:

PF_sample.ape

The whole sample looks like this in Media Editor. The dotted yellow cursor is at the click position:



Here is the click (at 3.682 s):

[Alex B]

I made a 2 sample files from "Amused To Death" album

Here is The Sample Files

Please, anyone see this,.. download and test them with gapless playback and report the pop/click between the gap...

The gap is obvious. Here is how it sounds on my PC: trackchange.ape (I used the Diskwriter output mode).

Foobar can play the files gaplessly becuse it uses the extra info from the LAME tags.

Sorry Pink.... I don't hear any clicks or pops...

Settings:

Switch Tracks - Gapless
Seek Gapless

Did you disable "Do not play silence (leading and trailing)" ?

[JimH]

Alex,
It's very obvious in your sample, but it's completely undetectable in the two files that Pink Waters provided.

I have the option turned on for trimming silence.

[Matt]

Please enable silence suppression for gapless MP3 playback.

The clip from Pink and AlexB plays nearly perfectly with this option enabled.

[Alex B]

Yes, that is what it does. The advantage of a decoder that can use the LAME tag info is that the intentional silence is preserved.

The Wall album has many seamless track changes, but it has many intentional pauses between the tracks too, like in my screenshot:



"Do not play silence ..." would remove about two seconds from the track boundary.

[JimH]

Yes, that is what it does. The advantage of a decoder that can use the LAME tag info is that the intentional silence is preserved.

We'll consider adding that feature in a future version, but people who are very concerned about audio quality usually use a lossless encoder.  You can also rip to a single file.

We're not going to chase this any longer.  Thanks, Alex, and others for helping.

[Pink Waters]

The gap may be not obvious in my files but I hear Click/pop between them though!
anyone else can confirm this ?

[Alex B]

We'll consider adding that feature in a future version, but people who are very concerned about audio quality usually use a lossless encoder.  You can also rip to a single file.

We're not going to chase this any longer. Thanks, Alex, and others for helping.

I am fine. ATM, I rip in APE+CUE+APL disc image format, archive the lossless files and convert to gapless MPC for the MC library.

I encode new MP3 track files only for my portable and car MP3 CD players, which cannot play MP3 files gaplessly.

Also, the "cross-fade smooth 0.2 s" is a viable option. It is almost gapless and don't remove silence. It never makes irritating loud pops.

Probably that LAME tag based system would need a completely rewritten input plug-in and still it would help only LAME encoded mp3 files. It is not something that you can quickly include in the next build.

[Alex B]

The gap may be not obvious in my files but I hear Click/pop between them though!anyone else can confirm this ?

The "Do not play silence ..." option does not make the track boundary perfect. I can hear a slight pop. "cross-fade smooth 0.2 s" is better for those two tracks.

I don't think there is anything more that can be done. It is not an MC problem. MP3 is not technically a gapless format as stated many times. Maybe sometime later J River will add support for the gapless playback info included in the proprietary LAME tag, but as said it would help only LAME encoded MP3 files.

[Pink Waters]

Alex B, I tried your "cross-fade smooth 0.2 s" proposition but I see that the following track is being played in a pre-timing a little,...

[ADDiCT]

From my point of view, the situation is clear: it's not about mp3 being a non-gapless format, and it's not about clicks on certain cd's.

What i have noticed is that recent builds of MC don't perform as good as older ones in terms of gapless playback of mp3 files. I consider this a bug, as there never were noticeable "clicks" in playback (I'm using MC for over three years now). As i wrote in a previous post, i'm also hearing the low-volume clicks sometimes while fast forwarding or rewinding.

Please, don't tell me again that ape/wav is being played back bit-perfect, or that mp3 is not designed for gapless playback, because that's not the point. The point is that the way MC handles "mixed" mp3 files has changed, and the change is not good. I'm no expert programmer, but i'd say there's a huge difference in playing back wav/ape and mp3.

[JimH]

We've spent a lot of time on this and I don't believe there is a problem or that anything has changed.

Maybe you haven't tried the option for trimming leading and trailing silence?

There are also many other reasons for sound problems.

[lalittle]

We'll consider adding that feature in a future version,

This is the direct response that I've been asking for regarding the capability of the LAME "silence" metadata.  It's obviously not what I wanted to hear, but thank you for answering it directly.

but people who are very concerned about audio quality usually use a lossless encoder.  You can also rip to a single file.

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but these suggestions simply do not offer the "solution" that they're being presented as doing.  Neither of these suggestions work if you want to use the rips for other sources, such as iPods or car CD players that have mp3 playback capability.  If you want to keep a single inventory of compressed songs that can be easily used for other purposes, mp3 files are still the best format to use.

Similarly, the "remove silence" option just does not work for the music I listen to.  As others have pointed out, the removal of "intentional" silence is just as big a problem (if not bigger) as the gaps in many cases, as is the removal of parts of the song that are not entirely silent.  The crossfade option, while being a bit better than the "remove silence" option in most cases, is still easily hearable in many cases.

This is why I was excited when I heard about the LAME solution to this problem, which is actually a "solution" and not a workaround.  This would be a fantastic feature for MC to include for those of us who are essentially forced to use mp3s for specific reasons, yet who have always wished for a solution to this issue.

Given that MC is typically at the head of the pack when it comes to features, I would hope that the LAME "metadata solution" would be seriously considered as a future addition.  I think that the desire for this feature is being underestimated.

Thanks again for all the help here (and thanks Alex and Pink for confirming that other CDs of "The Wall" have the same pops that mine does, and to Alex for the wavform pictures and all the extra testing.)

Larry

[ADDiCT]

The config of the PC i'm using for playback hasn't changed in the last few months. I didn't install new drivers, partly because i already have the most recent ones, and there are no new releases. All i did was to install some new builds of MC as they came out. Besides that, i've used MC on a few other, different machines. As i wrote before, i never noticed the low-volume "clicks" - on any machine, with any config. I don't believe the effect is connected to my hardware, software, or configuration - after all, i've been using PC's for music playback for four or five years, and i've made my experiences.

You don't believe anything has changed in terms of playback? Let me quote some lines from Alex B's "MC11.1 Change Log" thread:

4. Fixed: The last few bytes of audio would not always get output -- causing a pop in gapless playback. (introduced in 122)

7. Optimized: Several more assembly optimizations to the core playback / decoding / conversion engine. (lower CPU usage, faster conversions, etc.)

17. Optimized: Several assembly optimizations to the core playback / decoding / conversion engine. (lower CPU usage, faster conversions, etc.)

7. Changed: MC behaves more logically when pressing next in the last few seconds of a file's playback.

11. Fixed: Pausing audio playback, pressing Next, then pressing Next again would cause playback to corrupt when using DirectX output.

These are some quickly selected quotes i found by searching for "playback" in the thread, there may have been even more playback-related changes. Let me know if there's any more information i can give. I will do some additional testing, but that will be very time-consuming (downloading and installing older builds, testing playback with different albums, etc.) - i currently don't have the time to do all that.

[Pink Waters]

I'm almost had the exact same experience of ADDiCT, with MC...

The problem is very obvious that its in the playback engine of latest MC builds..

Now I see that: "Bugs are spreading into the core playback of MC"

Edit: I tested too with MC build 11.1.104, and the same problem presests

[RhinoBanga]

Here's the tail of the log:

1963110: General: CInterfacePlugins::CleanUp: Start
1963110: General: CInterfacePlugins::CleanUp: Releasing plugin: Playing Now
1963125: General: CInterfacePlugins::ReleasePlugin: Start
1963125: General: CInterfacePlugins::ReleasePlugin: Plugin: Playing Now
1963141: General: CInterfacePlugins::ReleasePlugin: Calling terminate

It looks like the "Terminate" function in the Playing Now plugin is crashing.  Has anyone else seen this?

This was an issue with one of the Alpha releases of PN 1.3 but it has been fixed now.   If anyone is experiencing this problem they should upgrade to the Beta.

[Matt]

Thanks for your prompt attention as always Rhino.

Cheers.