Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[glynor]

For those of you who didn't know... Minnesota, a state near and dear to us MC faithful, recently passed a law sponsored by state Sen. Sandra Pappas that bans the sale or rental of videogames rated AO (Adults Only) or M (Mature) to minors under the age of 18.  This ill-conceived law actually goes so far as to fine the purchaser (the minor) $25 for the offense (thankfully they dropped it from a misdemeanor to a civil penalty).

As expected, the ESA announced plans to sue and will likely win.  Among others, one main problem with these laws is that they are trying to put the force of law behind the ESRB Ratings System - a non-governmental entity. (MPAA movie ratings do not have standing as "law," and theaters voluntarily enforce them with few exceptions).  The other large problem is that the law was based the mantra of "games make kids violent".  Which isn't "automatically true merely because it has been continually repeated in recent years".  No, actually, courts require you to have proof and scientific evidence.

What is irritating about this law is that the people in Minnesota's legislature knew when they passed the law that it couldn't possibly hope to pass constitutional muster (as the almost-identical laws passed in Illinois, California, Michigan, and Wisconsin didn't either).  So now, the good taxpayers of Minnesota will have to pay tons of money (making lawyers rich on both sides) to try to save a law that wasn't even intended to be enforced according to it's sponsor and which they will lose.  Good plan Senator!

[hit_ny]

..but but, won't you just think about the children..

oh..Wait.

[Mr ChriZ]

I think all games should be banned for another reason.
The pure number of poor addicts out there plugged in 24/7!

The sun is shining here in Bournemouth.  The exams are over,
and I've got a sunburnt back 

[glynor]

Because banning other things that are harmful has worked so well in the past...

 

(Yes, I do realize you were kidding).

[KingSparta]

This Always Reminds Me Of A Movie Called Fahrenheit 451

It it also reminds me of People who did not want to see the Coyote Get blown up by "The Road Runner" and other similar cartoons.

If you make it people will complain.

If you lived in Mark Farmers World (Aka KingSparta) You would live in my dictatorial world (And I Am Ruthless). I have developed this fictional world for the past 52+ years in my own head (that is filled with mostly membrane fluid).

Some People think i should have a labodemy but i figure it really is the other way around.

Fahrenheit 451

The story of fireman Guy Montag first appeared in "The Fireman", a short story by Ray Bradbury published in Galaxy Science Fiction in 1951. Montag's story was expanded two years later, in 1953, and was published as Fahrenheit 451. While the novel is most often classified as a work of science fiction, it is first and foremost a social criticism warning against the danger of censorship. Fahrenheit 451 uses the genre of science fiction, which enjoyed immense popularity at the time of the book's publication, as a vehicle for his message that unchecked oppressive government irreparably damages society by limiting the creativity and freedom of its people. In particular, the "dystopia" motif popular in science fiction - a futuristic technocratic and totalitarian society that demands order and harmony at the expense of individual rights - serves the novel well.

Developed in the years following World War II, Fahrenheit 451 condemns not only the anti-intellectualism of the defeated Nazi party in Germany, but more immediately the intellectually oppressive political climate of the early 1950's - the heyday of McCarthyism. That such influential fictional social criticisms such as Orwell's Animal Farm 1984 and Skinner's Walden Two were published just a few short years prior to Fahrenheit 451 is not coincidental. These works reveal a very real apprehension of the danger of the US evolving into an oppressive, authoritarian society in the post-WWII period.

On a more personal level, Bradbury used Fahrenheit 451 as a vehicle through which to protest what he believed to be the invasiveness of editors who, through their strict control of the books they printed, impair writers' originality and creativity. Ironically, Fahrenheit 45I, itself a vehicle of protest against censorship, has often been edited for foul language.

Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury's most popular novel, has been reprinted scores of times since initially published in 1953. The lessons of this American classic, the dangers of censorship and government control, have become increasingly important and the novel is as relevant today as it was when first written.

[glynor]

In other news, the bill to increase (10 fold) the "broadcast indecency" fines was passed by the US House yesterday and has gone to GWB to be signed.  It always makes me laugh how in the US it is perfectly fine to show graphic depictions of murder and rape on television, blood soaked rooms, and autopsies.  However, show a woman's breast for 3 seconds and the man will come for you.  Can someone explain to me how breasts hurt children?  Aren't breasts really designed for children??

We're so uptight here.  Uptight and violent (which seem to go together really).

Oh, and king... I'll sing you a little song...

If I was king
I'd wear a ring
And never hurt my people
I'd stay alert
And dress to kill
I might even slip you something

[glynor]

Oh look... Another state decided to join the dumb legislation parade.  This time it's Louisiana... A state we all know can afford to dump a bunch of tax money down the drain (oh, wait...).

[JimH]

OK, glynor.  Now you're picking on two of my states -- my residence and my birthplace.

So what's wrong with outlawing sales of video games that teach kids to shoot at police?  Unconstitutional?  Doubtful.  Kids can't do lots of things adults can.

Free speech is worth fighting for, but uncivil behavior should not always be protected in the name of free speech.

This is a lot like the question of whether a church that teaches hatred is still a church and deserves protection.

I like Minnesota and I like Louisiana and I think they're doing the right thing.

Now, you'll also be glad to know that I support your right to bear arms.

Who else haven't I offended yet?  Let's see.....

[Mastiff]

I always smile of the signature of one of the guys over at the Promixis forum, something like this: "If videogames really affected kids, the PacMan generation would spend their day in dark room, chasing ghosts and eating glowing pills."

And Jim, you forgot the environmentalists and animal rights people. You should say something like: "Nuke the whales!"

[jgreen]

JimH--

Glad to hear of your (implied) support for the 2nd Ammendment.  Sometimes I worry a bit about the fine folks from the great (liberal) state of Minnesota, the only state to go for Dukakis, as I recall.
Still, the constitution has plenty more ammendments where the second one came from, and most of them are fairly worthwhile.  Prohibition, presidential term limits, certain other outliers excepted, IMO.
But I wouldn't be in such a goll-darned hurry to start tossing out any of the biggies, and call me sentimental, but I like to think of the first ammendment as the biggest of them all.  I agree that kids, criminals and crazies shouldn't have full rights in our society, but I think
Glynor's point is well-taken (Gulp!).  The MPAA does it's half-duty voluntarily, and I think the results are more or less acceptable, given the alternative.  I realise i just called Columbine an acceptable casualty of free speach, but I think as a society we've outsourced 90% of parenting and character-building, and that the horror of Columbine is due more to a failure of parenting.

So, as to GTA fomenting the next Columbine, shouldn't parents be monitoring what their kids have access to?  GTA is clearly an over-the-top fantasy, but it's reasonable that some children won't necessarily see it that way without guidance.  Perhaps someone in authority in a child's life might take time out from their busy schedule to explain it, and achieve an act of prevention that restricting speach or self defense could never match.

[Mr ChriZ]

Everyones looking at this the wrong way. 
If we ban kids instead then theres no possible way they can be influenced
by the video games.  Also even if the theory is wrong and it's not the video
games but the added chemicals in their food which is making them
attack teachers then there is still reduced violence.

This would help the states in several ways.
x Reduced Teaching costs
x Better Education Results (No student that took the exam failed)
x Reduced Policing costs
x Reduced insurance costs, due to less damage.
x Parents would not be parents, therefore increased available working time
   bringing in more taxes
x Non parents would also not need to spend rediculous amounts of
  money on expensive children.
x Reduced child obesity
x Xmas could be abolished once and for all

Sounds fool proof to me.

[Matt]

Now, you'll also be glad to know that I support your right to bear arms.

In my opinion, kids with guns is a bigger problem than kids with videogames.

[KingSparta]

I hate kids

They make too much noise

[JimH]

Everyones looking at this the wrong way. 
If we ban kids instead then theres no possible way they can be influenced
by the video games.  Also even if the theory is wrong and it's not the video
games but the added chemicals in their food which is making them
attack teachers then there is still reduced violence.

This would help the states in several ways.
x Reduced Teaching costs
x Better Education Results (No student that took the exam failed)
x Reduced Policing costs
x Reduced insurance costs, due to less damage.
x Parents would not be parents, therefore increased available working time
   bringing in more taxes
x Non parents would also not need to spend rediculous amounts of
  money on expensive children.
x Reduced child obesity
x Xmas could be abolished once and for all

Sounds fool proof to me.

Very funny.   

[Mastiff]

In my opinion, kids with guns is a bigger problem than kids with videogames.

[glynor]

So what's wrong with outlawing sales of video games that teach kids to shoot at police?  Unconstitutional?  Doubtful.  Kids can't do lots of things adults can.

Very little would be wrong with it if (and that's a big if):

1) You could actually show real, convincing evidence that they actually do teach kids to shoot police.  (Again, just because it is often repeated doesn't make it true.  Remember, teen violence is way down from levels 10 years ago.)  Trust me, if Jack Thompson could come up with hard evidence that this is true he would.  Where is the data?  Too often it sounds to me like a way to duck personal responsibility.  I didn't mean to kill all those people... Judas Priest made me do it.  Dungeons and Dragons made me do it.  The videogames made me do it.

2) You did it without deputizing a non-accountable, non-governmental agency.

3) You did it in a way that hasn't already 4 times been ruled unconstitutional by federal courts.

Its not so much that I want kids to play these games. However, I don't just accept with no evidence that they are harmful outright.  I'd say playing a few rounds of Unreal Tournament makes me personally less likely to commit violence, not more.  Even if they are harmful... Prohibition doesn't work.  We know this.  It's like the drug war.  In my high school, it was certainly easier to get cocaine or heroin than it was to get beer (which was itself easy enough to get).  I would say that "protecting" children by outlawing them (and laws like this are designed to outlaw the games completely, because they know Walmart won't carry them if a giant chunk of their audience can't buy them), is what is really dangerous. 

It's not that I believe that most of these games are good speech.  It's that I believe that freedom of speech (even to children) is essential to the exercise of democracy.  Games are the future of entertainment.  Heck, they're the future of the internet.  How long before you use a "game engine" to access real information on the internet?  MMORPGs are the start, but it's only going to get more pervasive, and more immersive.  That's real speech, and it is essential that it be free and unregulated.  Laws like this unfortunately have been shown again and again not to keep up with technology.

I believe in freedom...

To bear arms.
To tell the world what I want, in whatever way I want.
To drink beer.
To shoot heroin (if that's really what you want).
And to decide for myself what videogames my children will play, and what tv shows they can watch.

Most importantly though... I'm angry that it is such a waste of our money!  They know these laws will not survive court challenges!  Heck, the author of the Minnesota law admitted in the interview that she never intended for the law to be enforced... It was about putting on a show for voters who don't know any better.    A show that's costing taxpayers millions and millions of dollars when we have real problems to combat.

Just like "gay marriage", and all the other absurd "shows" they've been putting on (from both sides) which cost real money and real time.

As Matt said...

In my opinion, kids with guns is a bigger problem than kids with videogames.

Why can't we work on something that matters, and something that will actually accomplish something?