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[JimH]

We're thinking about widening the beta testing.  It would be nice to hear your opinion.  How is MC12 so far for you?  Compared to 11.1?  We know it's not completely stable or bug free.

[Doof]

Can't we be special just a liiiiiitle longer?

[glynor]

I'd probably vote no.  It hasn't been usable or stable enough yet for me to use it for "general purpose use" yet.  I'm still using a small "testing library" of files for MC12, and I wouldn't think of using it on my HTPC.

Unfortunately, as this and next week are the two busiest work weeks of my year (we have a huge course we host each year that I staff and run the AV for) I haven't had as much time as I'd have liked to play with it.  However, I'd still hesitate to recommend it to anyone over 11.1.

[Marty3d]

Well...in my limited test setup it works alright, so if no more major changes are to be done, I vote yes. My view overall is probably high expectations being crumbled. So far I see nothing really remarkable compared to MC11.1.

I was hoping for the relational db and some library server functionality like better write to tags, limiting GUI for readonly situations (same goes for Party mode) etc, as well as a true multi-user environment.

So to answer your question, it's more or less the same to me, but with a spiffed up GUI.

And as always, I'm not trying to be negative, you ARE still serving the best multimedia software around!

[KingSparta]

In The Last Report About MC12 Crashing In The Beta Thread I Think It Is Coming From When MC Is Doing Maint On Watched Folders.

I Still Would Like To See A Auto Convert Format Option

When MC12 Is Playing You Can See The File Data "Bold" but you can not see the playing arrow it is covered up by the small cover art image.

I think it would be best to allow MC to show the playing now Arrow on currently playing tracks and the cover art in the action window.

a detachable player would be nice like the detachable and dock-able action window.

It seems MC12 is now unlocking the media file after playing (that's good) that seems to fix some of the problems i was having when using media editor and converting.

[Deivit]

I'm using MC.12 exclusively (MC.11 got uninstalled) and it seems to work fine here with my 300,000+ mp3 library. The video playback issue was solved by Yaobing a few builds ago and is now performing well, as it did in MC 11.1.

However, as others have said, I still haven't find any "major" advantage over MC 11.1, maybe because those "major" advantages may have been put in areas out of my regular use.

In my opinion and for my regular use, there are two major issues that could cause a bad impression to the new beta testers:

1.- The new "tag info" system in the action window. It may look nicer than it was in MC 11.1 but I still do not find it more useful. It was more flexible back in MC 11.1 than it seems to be now. There is a whole thread about this issue so I'm not going to repeat what's said there.

2.- The "rip refresh bug" that I reported in the previous build makes ripping more than one CD with MC 12 impossible. This is in my opinion a major issue since ripping a CD is a basic task, not an advanced one, and it should work flawlesly from the beginning. This may cause a new user to say, "... c'mon!, this thing cannot even rip a CD!"

Being said that, I think it could be a good idea to widening the beta test to other points of view. May I suggest that you could ask for volunteers in the main forum based on their "using profiles", i.e. heavy handhelders, heavy MC-serverers, heavy theater-viewers, etc. This way you would have a more representative point of view to tweak the areas that most interest you.

May also take this opportunity to thank you again for giving me the chance to become a member of the team. I know that my skills are in no way comparable to the ones of the rest of the team, so I can only help as a plain-user with a large library.

Thank you.

[jgreen]

#1.  I think that 12 is a LOT further along in stability than 11.1 was at this point.  In that sense, it is definitely ready for prime time, IMO.

#2.  I think Deivitt's CD rip refresh bug is quite serious, for the reason he cites.  This is where the average user is going to get frustrated.

#3.  I think the new tagging scheme has a lot going for it vs 11.1.  However, I also feel it could use more development.

Overall, 12 is faster, sleeker to navigate and the Noire skin is cool.  It is much more stable than all but the later builds of 11.1, and Otto turned out to be surprisingly well-behaved.  In terms of new features, 11.1 was the stealth rocket, starting out modest and then piling on a lot of stuff.  So I think of 11.1 as 12, and this as 12.1, so far.

Echoing others, I think you're leaving important features on the table in terms of Otto.  He should be able to Otto-convert and Otto-rename and Otto a whole lot of stuff.

[Doof]

I think it's important to note that Jim merely asked if 12 was ready for "wider testing". In the beginning of this he said we would be the first 20, and then they'd open it up a little bit, then a little bit more, etc. I don't think he's asking if it's ready to go public, just ready to invite a few more users into the fold.

[jgreen]

Quoting JimH:

"It would be nice to hear your opinion.  How is MC12 so far for you?  Compared to 11.1?"

[Mr ChriZ]

What I've seen so far I like.  I think if the beta is to be
extended however it should be still to people that can handle things
going wrong.

[bennyd]

The more users test MC12, the better it will get in the end.

I like MC12 better than MC11.x but is that all that will change, nor more additional fucntionalities coming ?

Like better thumbnail viewining (like WM11)
Better Tagging of comma seperated fields in playing now (not possible to select multiple values)
etc.

[rpalmer68]

I think more testers wouldn't hurt, but it does crash a lot more than my MC11 install does so I don't think it's quite ready for a full public beta yet.

I too would like to think a few more new features would be added before release, especially for me in the theater view area as I think this has been  left out in the cold (development wise) over other features for quite a while now.

Richard

[gpvillamil]

No.

I realize that you are in a hurry to release, since this means more incoming revenue. And revenue is good.

However - I want MC12 to be a product that really screams "BUY ME", that is so obviously slick and well thought out that people will reflexively reach for their wallets when they see what it does.

It seems like there is still more design work to be done, not just reliability and usability testing. Design work is best with smaller group, reliability with larger group.

I think a few UI features really need to be nailed down and thought through, which implies large-ish changes for a few more builds.

These are:

1) Drag target + "add here" button for action window items
2) Minimize the need for long-distance drag & drop to small targets, or for navigation of deeply nested menus - both are awkward for "living room" type input devices
2) Rethink contents of action window - what are the criteria for putting something here?
3) Better, more visible management of video and image items in the playing queue
4) Polish up wording throughout menus - eg. Rename or Edit Item for the F2 function, nested menus with the same subitems, etc.
5) User-interface widget behaviors - maximize, minimize, restore boxes should be consistent with Windows behavior.
6) Multi-monitor features are still very, very rough and confusing. The UI and the display window pop up in unexpected places, something is broken with the visualizations.

All this stuff is best done with a smaller subgroup, since it implies design work. A larger group can be more useful for reliability and usability testing.

In general, I think the MC12 team needs to hammer out some basic UI rules and follow them. While this is going on, a larger team is counter-productive.

[LonWar]

Well I was really hoping that this :        http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=31662.0
Could make it into this version... Hopefully this isn't it for new features.

[jgreen]

That's the spirit, Gamer!  You go, boy!

[Charlemagne 8]

I've been toying around with this since Version 5.something (which never actually worked for me) and I remember vividly the Alpha version of Media Jukebox 8, which was released to anybody that wanted it.
This "Beta" is way more stable and user-friendly than many previous builds.
So I say open it up a little more. As long as everyone knows it's a beta that they're testing, it couldn't hurt and probably will help.
And to Deivit who said "I know that my skills are in no way comparable to the ones of the rest of the team, so I can only help as a plain-user with a large library." I would say that that's a very desirable target audience. 90% of the people who will buy MC 12 fall into the category you (and me) are.
Besides, the best I can come up with is a complaint about visualizations.

CVIII

[glynor]

That's the spirit, Gamer!  You go, boy!

I should say, I never got the impression that Jim was suggesting that MC12 was/is feature complete.  I think it was a question about "is it usable to the point where we could release it to a wider audience".

For me, the answer is still no.

[glynor]

We know it's not completely stable or bug free.

I'd also mention that I'm not really setting my standards sky high on this.  I tend to replace my "working version" of MC fairly early in the development cycle.  Still, MC12 is fairly unusable for me in it's current form (the library creation problem is serious, and I think that Otto is still fairly broken).

[JimH]

I realize that you are in a hurry to release, since this means more incoming revenue. And revenue is good.

Our traditional end user revenue isn't a factor.

MC12 is the basis of several players we're building for business partners.  A record label and a large traditional media company among them.  We have to get it to a stable point.  More testers will help.

It isn't ideal, I know.  We're not thrilled about it either.  It's just a fact we have to live with.

[gpvillamil]

Our traditional end user revenue isn't a factor.

MC12 is the basis of several players we're building for business partners.  A record label and a large traditional media company among them.  We have to get it to a stable point.  More testers will help.

It isn't ideal, I know.  We're not thrilled about it either.  It's just a fact we have to live with.

Understood!

However, this implies that MC12 (or products derived from it) will soon be entering a market broader than the current enthusiast/music collector market. So usability is key... Esp. if a lot of the market will be non-native English speakers, or non-English speakers.

[glynor]

Our traditional end user revenue isn't a factor.

MC12 is the basis of several players we're building for business partners.  A record label and a large traditional media company among them.  We have to get it to a stable point.  More testers will help.

It isn't ideal, I know.  We're not thrilled about it either.  It's just a fact we have to live with.

This worries me.  I've always been extremely impressed with the quantity and quality of the features added to each new release of MC.  You guys all work hard for us and spend the time it takes to make it right.

Just keep on keeping on and I'll shut up.   

[glynor]

Just a question but ....

Do you have a person who works there whose primary job function is to try to break the program?  A MC programming Red Team if you will?

Us beta testers are great, but our utility is somewhat limited (for example, I've got my Short Course thing right now sucking up my time).  Marko does seem to have endless time (and I thought he was independantly wealthy, because of his seemingly infinite amout of time to devote to MC, until I saw the car thread  ), but still...

Someone who is a programmer, who has access to the source code, who sits there for all (or at least the vast majority) of their time testing and beating on it could be extremely helpful.  Probably well worth the paycheck (especially since you wouldn't have to necessarily hire a super-experienced programmer, you could pay someone at the "entry level, still learning" phase for this).

[datdude]

If you had a test or two, I have no problem running through it, I mean I got a free license...

I would say that overall MC 12 is less stable currently than MC 11 was.  It is much faster overall, and easier to use in some area's, but less usable in others.

Lets help JRiver get through this transitional period so MC prospers annd we can get back to adding features that not everone wants or thinks they want, but are ultra cool when implemented in MC!!!!

[GHammer]

I think it is ready for some additional testers.

Otto is working well here. I can add and exclude directories and Otto obeys well.

• I do not have network drives
• I do not have an online video library, though I do have a few videos
• I do not right click import media. I used to do a manual add, Otto now does it.

I am pretty happy with image support.
I have added 100s of images to my test library and so far, so good.

• I have just begun tagging and comparing data and image with another tool
• I never work with original files anyway, only copies. I can re-rip tunes. Events happen only once.

I like the new display screen. But I am not real happy with how a slideshow starts anytime I click on music and start playback from a playlist. Then I have to close the display window and go back to the playlist again.

The handheld portion is MUCH smoother/better than the last builds of 11.1
I had pretty much quit using that to sync to a local directory and to my wife's machine. Too many times it would simply stall or fail to convert.

It now works well for me converting APEs to MP3 and simply copying existing MP3s. Just what I want it to do.

I also think that we should keep in mind that while MC does have great advanced features, the wide audience is not the dual monitor, fiber networked, outboard DAC, 103 inch plasma screen household.

It is gonna be the "I have a new portable player and want an easy way to get music on and off of it" crowd. The things that that crowd will use are either working well or need little tweaks. A few more testers would be a good idea along about now.

Were it me, I'd fix what is broken (not what works differently than others expect) in this version, let this group test it a bit then open up to a few more testers.

I do think this group should come up with a test script.
Enable this
Do that
Check this

Not overwhelming IMO.

[JimH]

However, this implies that MC12 (or products derived from it) will soon be entering a market broader than the current enthusiast/music collector market. So usability is key... Esp. if a lot of the market will be non-native English speakers, or non-English speakers.

The flavored versions we're building often have a radically reduced set of features.  Theater View, for example, isn't a concern for a company who needs to compete with iTunes.

Here's an example of a player based on 11.1 but radically different:

Screenshots of two skins:
http://www.jriver.com/~jriver/2006/skins/MNSkin1.jpg
http://www.jriver.com/~jriver/2006/skins/MNSkin2.jpg

Download:
www.performerdigital.com

[JimH]

glynor,
No, we don't have a dedicated breaker.  We rely on users.  Companies we're working with also do formal QA.

[glynor]

glynor,
No, we don't have a dedicated breaker.  We rely on users.  Companies we're working with also do formal QA.

I suspected.  I think we do a great job for you, and we do come cheap.  Heck, we even pay for the privledge.   

If you do really want to speed the stability issue though, it might be something to do a cost-analysis on.

[JimH]

I suspected.  I think we do a great job for you, and we do come cheap.

Agreed and much appreciated!

If you do really want to speed the stability issue though, it might be something to do a cost-analysis on.

As I said, there is formal QA in the loop.  A team of paid breakers.  It can get to be annoying in fact.

[glynor]

As I said, there is formal QA in the loop.  A team of paid breakers.  It can get to be annoying in fact.

True enough!  Our development people at work (mostly high-end bioinformatics data analysis stuff) have to work very hard to "get along" with their Red Team counterparts.  It helps when you work and sit next to each other, and can go out for beers after work and all complain about the boss.

Oh wait... That's you!   

[gpvillamil]

...

I also think that we should keep in mind that while MC does have great advanced features, the wide audience is not the dual monitor, fiber networked, outboard DAC, 103 inch plasma screen household.

...

There are plenty of media players chasing the wide audience. MC12 should build on the strengths that no other program has. I've had some thoughts on this, will post longer later.

[lalittle]

MC12 should build on the strengths that no other program has.

This is the whole reason I started using MC in the first place -- it offered configuratbility and features that other programs did not.  This is why I keep emphasizing a desire for "more configurability" rather than a single, "simpler" approach to the layout, which I feel goes against the JR Media Center "tradition" of MORE power.

To address the original question, I think that 12 is certainly "stable" enough to open up to a wider testing audience.  There are still some bugs, and I still feel that MC12 could use more configuration options in some areas, but it seems to me that a somewhat larger beta team could be an advantage at this point.  It would probably be advantageous to keep the team "somewhat" small so as to keep the number of posts to a manageable level, but I think it could be larger than 20 people.

Personally, my only "serious" issue with MC12 at this point is, as I posted in other threads, the Tag window limitations compared to MC11.  This, to me, is a VERY important issue that I hope is further addressed.  Other than this, MC12 does offer some specific advantages over MC11 in my personal use, like Audible playback over Media Server.

Larry