Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[silkshadow]

Wow, I've owned MC for almost 2 years and I had no idea you guys didn't provide an email for your registered users to email you! I would complain about that except, your product has worked well enough, that I have never needed to look for a support email before .

I just wanted to give you guys some feedback on a avenue for revenue that, while you have probably considered,  maybe I can nudge you to reconsider. I bought J River Media Center 10 because there was this great plugin for Meedio that supported it. And, at that time, Meedio's music system was horrible. I have, of course, since paid for the upgrade license for MC 11 and enjoy using it even outside of my HTPC enviroment. However, I would never have bought MC, till this day, if it wasn't for the need for it in my HTPC system.

No question MC is a great product but there is also lots of other products that do the same which are as good, better or just slightly inferior which are free or cheaper. Products which I was using previous to my need for MC in my HTPC setup and some of which I am still using. For example, the yaadb or whatever system is not really that good for tagging music. Yes, its ok for mainstream stuff. But its useless for my Chinese music or for most of my non-mainstream music. And even for some of my mainstream stuff that is not encoded exactly like a song that was previously submitted to yadb, it will fail. I have submitted far more tag info to yaadb than it has provided tags for and have since stopped using it. This is just an example, I am sure there are others where other music jukeboxes are better.

My point is that there is an untapped market where J River could become dominant. That is the HTPC space. I am not sure how many lisences you have sold because of your Tivo integration but, while Tivo is a widely sold product in the US, its users are generally 1) not technically knowledgeable 2) not interested in spending time (and money) making their tech better 3) located only in the US (besides some Canadians and Oztivo people). The opposite is true for us who use HTPCs. Even Microsoft Media Center (MCE) users, as a percentage. But it is almost universally true of the HTPC market that dosen't use MCE. Heres another simple fact, every one of those other HTPC programs has a lousy music interface (especially compared to the features that MC offers). For some reason, it just seems to be the most neglected element of all these softwares. Lastly, no matter what you do to your theater view, it will never be what HTPC users will use because it is not integrated into their HTPC software. BTW, the UI of theater view is terrible. Some users have made beautiful skins but that doesn't effect the UI functionality which, as I said, is terrible.

So what do I suggest? Send an email to dhill -at- theaterwave.com. He created the perfect integration between Meedio and MC and work something out with him. Then, personally, I really want SageTV (http://www.sagetv.com/) integration as do many users. SageTV has a large user base (its not cheap either so you know their users have money and are willing to spend) and they also have deals with OEM vendors as well as a Linux version of their software. Also, as do almost all HTPC software, it has a plugin system. Oh, BTW, if you didn't already know, Meedio was bought by Yahoo and is being released as a free Media Center so, I would guess, that means a huge user base. But the clock is ticking. SageTV claims it will have a revamped and good music system in their next release. I doubt it will be as good as a MC inetgration can be though but, this is true accross the board. Every package is improving their music now that the HTPC market is expanding.

[JimH]

Wow, I've owned MC for almost 2 years and I had no idea you guys didn't provide an email for your registered users to email you! I would complain about that except, your product has worked well enough, that I have never needed to look for a support email before .

Thanks for taking time to write.  I was travelling when you posted and I didn't have time to read this carefully until now.

...yaadb or whatever system is not really that good for tagging music. Yes, its ok for mainstream stuff. But its useless for my Chinese music or for most of my non-mainstream music. And even for some of my mainstream stuff that is not encoded exactly like a song that was previously submitted to yadb, it will fail.

We're working on YADB right now.  You should see visible improvements in the next couple of months.

... the UI of theater view is terrible. Some users have made beautiful skins but that doesn't effect the UI functionality which, as I said, is terrible.

OK.  We hear similar comments from time to time, but it would help a lot to hear exactly why you say that.  What is better about Meedio, for example?

So what do I suggest? Send an email to dhill -at- theaterwave.com. He created the perfect integration between Meedio and MC and work something out with him. Then, personally, I really want SageTV (http://www.sagetv.com/) integration as do many users.

What kind of integration?

In any case, thanks for your thoughts.

[silkshadow]

Hehe, this is why I prefer email. I am pretty bad at keeping up with message boards once my attention wanders to another project.

OK.  We hear similar comments from time to time, but it would help a lot to hear exactly why you say that.  What is better about Meedio, for example?

What kind of integration?

It would just take too much to explain in words and, frankly, will have no impact on you until you are sitting on your couch with a remote trying to interface easilly with your music. To put it in a couple of sentences its slow and actually interferes with getting the right music that I want playing quickly. Just the fact that it takes so many button presses that setting up music for dinner makes my thumb sore speaks for itself. Then the now playing screen, the lack of any library management or access to any enhanced features, the useless and unintuitive pop-up menus, inability to rate music, the derth of remote commands and, at the same time, too many useless button commands, the inflexibility, the list goes on - as I said way too much to explain in words and has no impact unless you understand what a good UI is like and are sitting in front of it with a remote. If you are serious about improving your product. I beg you to download Meedio (not the Yahoo GoTV beta), its free now that Yahoo bought it, and install the MC plugin from DHill. If you want, PM me with an IM address and system and I will walk you through setting it up (mind that I am currently in +8GMT time zone and will be for the next few months).

If thats too much, just check out this page:

http://www.theaterwave.com/tw/software_info.php?id=4#JRMC_Player

It doesn't do the system justice till you, again, are sitting on your couch with a remote. Also thats for an older version (like a year ago) of both Meedio and the plugin. But this is the level of integration I am reffering to. The ability to use Media Center and call up all its functions from beautiful, totally easy to use, quick to navigate and remote optomized screens within the HTPC program and integration in the HTPC's program playback interface as well as the HTPC's databse structure. Mr. Hill has accomplished all of this with his Meedio plugin. As I said previously, you should email him. He's a really nice guy, don't be afraid of him, and he's personally responsible for many sales of your product, BTW.

I am not saying Meedio is the best or anything. But its the only system where J River has a place (and that's the whole point I am making). All these home theater softwares are trying to develop their own music systems. Media Portal has a decent system which include zones already. I would say Media Portal has a better zone system than J River does, in terms of control and networked use. However, none can match the feature set that J River has except for other jukebox programs. If I was a J River customer 5 years ago, I would've encouraged you guys to start development in a full blown media system direction. Now it is far and away too late. The competition is way too well developed and Media Center's UI is just not designed correctly to be a system like that. So I am instead suggesting you guys stake a place in the growing HTPC space as the music system to use with your HTPC.

[darichman]

This is an interesting thread.

You've got me interested in Meedio now, so I guess it can work the other way around as well

Some of those screenshots are looking pretty snazzy!

[slikvik]

Just come back to the forums from a year off and its funny but I was foreever pesting JR to focus more on the HTPC side of things.

The thing with HTPC systems is they arent actually that clever - just a simple why of navigating a computer. They then try to add the media databases and playback engines at the back-end and thats where it tends to go wrong.

With MC you already have the perfect back-end:

Library Organisation
Zones and Central Server
Ripping
Burning
Playback

What I would have like was a nice HTPC front end that was almost idiot proof. TV was definately getting close. I cant remember what the main issues (it's been a while,) but certainly lack of DBA DVB-T support for TV, lack of ffdShow support and no plug-in capabilities where issues at the time.

Suffice to say I now use Media Portal, but still do all my ripping and tagging in MC.....oh for the day when I could build a PC with one application on it and give it to my parents to play theirs CD's, DVD's and TV all from start-up with a remote.

=]

Cya

Slik

[silkshadow]

This is an interesting thread.

You've got me interested in Meedio now, so I guess it can work the other way around as well Smiley

Some of those screenshots are looking pretty snazzy!

. The J River integration in Meedio by Mr. Hill is really great. When you try it you will be hooked, for sure. However, Meedio itself is in a transition period since Yahoo bought it. Some of the major plugins (like meeTVshows) are broken. I am sure things will go into overdrive when Pablo et al finish Y! GoTV (assuming they don't break the things that make Meedio great) but those guys tend to work slowly without giving updates till the pressure from the users gets too much then they will dribble out some info. So there is no telling when it will be done. Thats actually what prompted my first post.

The thing with HTPC systems is they arent actually that clever - just a simple why of navigating a computer. They then try to add the media databases and playback engines at the back-end and thats where it tends to go wrong.

With MC you already have the perfect back-end:

Library Organisation
Zones and Central Server
Ripping
Burning
Playback

What I would have like was a nice HTPC front end that was almost idiot proof.

See slikvik is a HTPC user, right on. This is what we all want. I've been a serious HTPC user for many years. I've been patient but the holy grail of a single, powerful, fully customizable, client/server, meta-data full HTPC is still not here. But the UIs are here and there is a UI that is perfect for everyone, no matter what their preference, as there are many great programs a user just needs to pick the one that suits them and their familly. I've overall been happy with a Meedio and SageTV combo for a couple of years but now that Meedio is in limbo, I'd like to just use SageTV. However, the music system of it stinks and there is only a plugin for dvd-profiler for meta-data. This is being fixed for the next version but, no matter what they do, the music system will not be as good as a jukebox program for a large music collection like mine. If a good jukebox program (any) could integrate themself into the established PVR-softwares they would gain a customer base of the entire HTPC market besides the people who want everything for free (read: MythTV users ) and those on a budget (which is very few given the costs of building a HTPC). Since I already bought J River, I'd like it to be them but I am going to start emailing other Jukebox makers till one of them understands the potential (read: $$$).

TV was definately getting close.

I have to disagree with that have you tried SageTV (or Beyond TV)?

DBA DVB-T support for TV, lack of ffdShow support and no plug-in

Tip of the iceberg but, alone, are deal breakers for me. Lack of ffdshow support is why I, and many others, will never be willing to use MCE.

Suffice to say I now use Media Portal

Its zone system is pretty good, huh? I've been playing with it as well, looking for a replacement for Meedio till Y! GoTV is finished, but nothing can really replace Meedio till there is a jukebox plugin lke DHill's.

oh for the day when I could build a PC with one application on it and give it to my parents to play theirs CD's, DVD's and TV all from start-up with a remote

Ahmen! But I don't think it will ever be one program. Even MCE replies on several different programs, but they all load in the background and are fully accessed and integrated into the MCE UI. Thats what DHill's plugin does to J River in Meedio and what I am saying J River should do for their program and make it work with all the major programs. Its not that many. In every one of these software's forums they could even get a ton of help. Since J River uses forums even to the exclusion of email support, they should be used to using a forum. For Sage they should send a PM to neilm, stanger89 or crashless.

[hit_ny]

Which remote control & supporting system do you find works best with meedio ?

Netremote is what many here recommend, would you agree with that ?

I've been thinking of setting up the TV to do the user-friendly thing, but the intervening stages is where i ended up getting lost.

[JimH]

Just the fact that it takes so many button presses that setting up music for dinner makes my thumb sore speaks for itself. Then the now playing screen, the lack of any library management or access to any enhanced features, the useless and unintuitive pop-up menus, inability to rate music, the derth of remote commands and, at the same time, too many useless button commands, the inflexibility, the list goes on - as I said way too much to explain in words

Let's see if you can describe in detail a little more.  Here's your list then:

it takes so many button presses

the now playing screen

lack of any library management

access to any enhanced features

useless and unintuitive pop-up menus

inability to rate music

derth of remote commands

too many useless button commands

the inflexibility

Which are the three most important to you?  Why?  How should they be different?

[slikvik]

Silkshadow, when I said TV I actually meant Theatre View.
 
I've had another look at "TV" (its been a while,) and I remember that you did actually listen to a lot of things I had suggested such as selecting what views to show (this is fantastic!) and an option to remove left/right navigation.

It's actually quite nice and I see some things that you don't see in other front ends such as the pop up to add/show/select etc ...nice stuff.

but...for a true HTPC system fans would want some of these:
(In no particular order.)

ffdShow - In general more control over dshow filters. A lot of HTPC fans use plasmas (like me) or projectors. Adding resizing, sharpening etc really add a lot to the viewing experience. Remember HTPC's are about get something that seperate boxes cant do without considerable expense.

BDA Support - By adding this you increase the number TV cards dramatically. But you need to allow people to record in the native mpeg2 format so they get perfect quality when playing back. I couldn't live without this with my Nebula DigiTV card.

Plugins - If you don't add it someone else can.

Server - How cool would it be to have my raid server with two TV cards in it and all my audio rips. Then my two PC's indoors could load up "TV" and access all the audio views or watch Television streamed via the network. I could sync zones or my personally fav (which i do now,) is have a sound card set as zone 2 with is connected to my wireless headphones. I can then listen to music while Emma watches Tele.

Other MC functions - Things like ripping CD's or downloading to iPods could all have a little "TV" equivalent. (just tick the Show in Theatre View box in their properties) Going on from this i would suggest that you could

I'm a programmer and understand the work put into "TV". It would be a shame not to pursue it...when you have the engine (MC) and the start of good remote navigation ("TV".)

To please both ideas, once you have a plugin system written you could actually write some first party plugins that actually integrate Sage TV or DigiTV into "TV" (Change skins to match and enable proper app control etc.)

The two main things that are used in HTPC's are music and television...by far. Get the TV side spot on and with wide support, market it as a HTPC solution and you'll be laughing.

By the way, I have used DHills plugin with meedio and I'm currently using Media Portal since Meedio went Yahoo crazy.

Cheers

Slik