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Author Topic: www.insertz.com  (Read 5426 times)

KingSparta

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www.insertz.com
« on: September 02, 2006, 06:17:20 pm »

So what is www.insertz.com?
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JimH

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2006, 06:30:58 pm »

Yeah, well.  It's a work in progress.

We're trying to find a way to monetize podcasts.  Evil, I know.
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KingSparta

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2006, 06:39:44 pm »

Quote
We're trying to find a way to monetize podcasts.  Evil, I know

Not really

If played thru MC i don't see why you can not just pad the podcast with a 15 - 30 second Audio ad.

Both On Front And Or Rear Of The Podcast.
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JimH

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2006, 08:35:37 pm »

Yes.  We can do that.
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RobOK

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2006, 07:23:34 am »

If played thru MC i don't see why you can not just pad the podcast with a 15 - 30 second Audio ad.

Both On Front And Or Rear Of The Podcast.

I really hope you do not do this.  Why would you put ads on Podcasts but not on music files?   I would actually be quite okay with Text ads here in the forum, or even a text ad on the Start Page of MC or text/banner ads on your own Podcast listing page.  But to ad and Audio ad before and after playing a podcast crosses a line for me.

My .02

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JimH

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2006, 07:29:59 am »

I really hope you do not do this. 
We're not doing this for MC.  We're doing it because we think that podcasts represent how media will work in the future.  You'll be able to get what you want anytime and enjoy it anywhere.  That means it needs to be portable. 

There are two ways to help make this happen.
1.  Support it with advertising. 

2.  Wait until everyone agrees on a couple of DRM standards.

Unless broadcasters can find a way to earn money for the media they produce and distribute, podcasts will remain a field for amateurs.

And it will be the broadcaster or podcaster who decides whether and how to use ads.  We're just building technology to enable this.
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hit_ny

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2006, 01:15:09 pm »

Podcasts will be ads-less when someone figures out how to HBO it :)
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KingSparta

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2006, 01:39:29 pm »

Actually I think JRiver Should Make A Free Version Of MC12

After The 30 Day Trial

MC12 Will Have Less Optionss, And When The User Plays A Song, The Unregistered Version Of MC12 Will Play An Ad On The Front Of Each Song the user plays.
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glynor

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2006, 01:50:48 pm »

Yeah, well.  It's a work in progress.

We're trying to find a way to monetize podcasts.  Evil, I know.

Actually, I think this is a wonderful idea.  The ability to monetize podcasts without charging the end user (ad-supported model) is likely to be essential in the further development of this medium.  I, too, believe that podcasting is likely to be the television of the future.  The ability of it to "democratize" (I hate that term because it isn't accurate, but it does seem to be the accepted term) broadcasting and allow everyone with something to say to become a TV station is deeply powerful.  It also is something the current media conglomerates are understandably nervous about (and I suspect that this is the real motivation behind all the anti-net-neutrality stuff that's been bandied about lately).

The biggest problem currently with the podcast model is that it is nearly impossible to insert dynamic ads into podcasts.  Sure, if I'm developing a podcast I can manually insert static ads.  But there's currently no way to have those ads stay relevant as time goes on (and unlike network/cable TV, because people "watch" podcasts with no set schedule that's something that is extremely important to the marketers).  It's very similar to the "TiVO" problem.  When I watch TV now, it's all DVRed.  Even if I don't skip the ads (which is rare), they're never relevant because I'm usually watching a show recorded days (if not weeks or months) ago.

This type of technology, a system to dynamically insert ads into existing podcasts as playback occurs (or even before download occurs), if based on open standards and playable in a variety of devices/applications could be huge!  It could enable tiny producers of podcasts to sign up with a "ad delivery service" company and actually earn money from their podcasts!

Just brilliant guys!   ;D

That... and it would be a great way to distribute content without needing DRM.  And I'm sure you know my feelings on that...  In that model, I'd want my end users to re-distribute the content, since that would just mean more money for me!  Set up your own torrents of my files and take the load off of my servers!  Please!   :o
 
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RobOK

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2006, 06:51:41 am »

Actually, I think this is a wonderful idea.  The ability to monetize podcasts without charging the end user (ad-supported model) is likely to be essential in the further development of this medium.  I, too, believe that podcasting is likely to be the television of the future.  The ability of it to "democratize" (I hate that term because it isn't accurate, but it does seem to be the accepted term) broadcasting and allow everyone with something to say to become a TV station is deeply powerful.  It also is something the current media conglomerates are understandably nervous about (and I suspect that this is the real motivation behind all the anti-net-neutrality stuff that's been bandied about lately).

The biggest problem currently with the podcast model is that it is nearly impossible to insert dynamic ads into podcasts.  Sure, if I'm developing a podcast I can manually insert static ads.  But there's currently no way to have those ads stay relevant as time goes on (and unlike network/cable TV, because people "watch" podcasts with no set schedule that's something that is extremely important to the marketers).  It's very similar to the "TiVO" problem.  When I watch TV now, it's all DVRed.  Even if I don't skip the ads (which is rare), they're never relevant because I'm usually watching a show recorded days (if not weeks or months) ago.
 


It seems odd to me that on the one hand you like a technology that allows you to skip ads (Tivo) and yet applaud one that allows a content distributer to insert ads.

Note i used the word distributer.  I think an ad system would be used by Distributors to put their advertising on other people's content.   I think this would be a bad evolution of the podcast medium.

We should not be trying to make podcasting work like television.  It is different.

TV did not end Radio.  The VCR and now DVD is not ending the movie industry.  The industries adapt, change .... some companies disappear, new ones emerge.  It is far too simplistic to say the future of podcasting depends on the ability to insert advertising.   There are many ways to support media companies financially, not just advertising that is forced down a users throat.


Who here has ever downloaded a media file (a video clip) to have it be preceded by an ad?  If you have, you know how hated that practice is.   I associate that with RealPlayer, and I hate RealPlayer for that and other user-abusive practices.   


I admit I am not understaning the model you are trying to develop, but I think any initiative where MC is facilitating advertising would not be met with a positive reaction.



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JimH

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2006, 07:21:39 am »

Some people believe advertising is evil.  Sometimes I agree.

But it can be educational and informative.  It's allowed us to let people know about our products and build our business.

From a producer's point of view, most must earn money.  A few will do it for free, but to put on Monday Night Football, you have to have cash.

If you have an idea for media, either you sell the product, rent it, or subsidize it with advertising.  Because of casual copying on the Internet, you can no longer sell an open (non DRM) file.  You probably can't rent it (subscription) effectively.  Subsidizing the delivery with advertising seems promising.

We're working on an automated way of adding advertising.  It will also allow you as a consumer to tell us enough about yourself that we don't give you ads for things you wouldn't buy (lady's cosmetics for most men, for example).

If you (as consumer) are willing to tell us a few things about yourself (location, sex, age, one or two interests) think it will also allow us to deliver content you're more likely to enjoy.

Evil?
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KingSparta

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2006, 07:46:25 am »

Evil?

Pop Up Adds, Adds That Obscure Or Lock You Into There Site With Endless Pop Ups. Places That Require You To Download There Program Or Activex File To View There Website, Or Spread Spy-ware And Or viruses.

That's Evil
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glynor

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2006, 09:00:14 am »

If you (as consumer) are willing to tell us a few things about yourself (location, sex, age, one or two interests) think it will also allow us to deliver content you're more likely to enjoy.

Evil?

A little.  I personally wouldn't want to give any information, and this is where I think you could hit problems.  Sure, targeted ads help the marketers.  They don't waste money on showing ads to people who aren't interested in their products.  I think saying that it's for "my benefit" is a little like the RIAA saying that DRM is to help me.

It's not for me.  It's for them.  Call a dog a dog.

Yes.  It does allow you to deliver content I'm "more likely to enjoy" but the fact of the matter is I can choose my own content that I'm likely to enjoy by selecting the podcast I want to view.  I don't need you (or anyone else) to tell me what I'm going to enjoy.  Plus, if you target advertising individually it accentuates that which makes advertising evil on it's own.  That is, it's capacity to control our minds.  Overly targeted ads can quickly become extremely difficult (if not impossible) to resist.

Then we're not free.  We're buying machines.  (It's already very close to that and I fear any small steps in that direction).

I, personally, wouldn't go too far towards the "personalized" route.  At least not by asking the customers to volunteer information.  It just won't work.  First off, imagine the backlash from groups like the EFF (and not all publicity is good publicity -- that's a fallacy, just look at Rockstar Games).  Secondly, they won't do it.  Look how people react to AdWare (and Real and on and on).  It's been tried over and over again in this "internet age", and it's never been the success that the buzz seems to suggest.  The reason for the people to give up that personal information has to be far more compelling than simply to tailor ads to them (so they don't see ads they don't like).  People like to see ads for things they don't want to buy (because it gives them time to go to the bathroom and something to "not pay attention to" and make fun of and feel superior).  It may work for a few, but the vast masses will not give up their information without a compelling reason.

Google's model is far more palatable to the public.  They "personalize" their ads not by asking you for information, but by collecting information based on what you do while you are on their site.  Its a small, semantic difference but the implications are huge.  One way (the way you propose) requires active participation from the customer.  The other (google's) only requires passive participation (and provides a way to avoid it -- clear your cookies regularly).

It seems odd to me that on the one hand you like a technology that allows you to skip ads (Tivo) and yet applaud one that allows a content distributer to insert ads.

I don't think this is at odds at all.  I don't have a problem with them putting ads on TV.  I do have a problem with DRM that prevents me from doing what I want with my media.  I do not buy the argument that it is their media (and that I'm a licensee) at all.  I seriously doubt that the framers of the constitution would have either (of course, they wouldn't buy our current copyright term length either).

As far as the distributer argument.... I'm not sure I follow you.  The whole promise of Internet-based broadcasting is that you can self distribute your work and do not have to go through a media conglomerate to reach a large audience.  If your work is compelling enough, they will come.  Sure, there may be indexing services.  However, as a content producer, I am certainly not going to let the indexing service take control of the advertising in my production (or especially the money from said advertising).

Some people might allow it, but as the medium develops, I doubt we will really have many traditional "distributers" as you describe.  Bittorrent just makes that unnecessary.  The only reason we need them at all now is so that the content producers can make money (the distribution site has ads and makes money off of user contributed content).  That's, IMHO, a quick-fix because there is no solution such as what JRiver proposes.  Anyone moderately interested in distributing commercially viable works will not accept a similar situation.

And did TV end Radio?  No, but it certainly changed it drastically and greatly reduced it's relevance.  Ask your local theater owner how they feel about DVDs and home theater systems.  I'm not saying that this should be the only model... Just like ad-supported TV isn't the only model (HBO and PBS are the channels I watch the most at home), but I do think it's an important step for the medium.
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RobOK

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2006, 09:31:03 am »

Quote
As far as the distributer argument.... I'm not sure I follow you.  The whole promise of Internet-based broadcasting is that you can self distribute your work and do not have to go through a media conglomerate to reach a large audience.  If your work is compelling enough, they will come.  Sure, there may be indexing services.  However, as a content producer, I am certainly not going to let the indexing service take control of the advertising in my production (or especially the money from said advertising).

Some people might allow it, but as the medium develops, I doubt we will really have many traditional "distributers" as you describe.  Bittorrent just makes that unnecessary.  The only reason we need them at all now is so that the content producers can make money (the distribution site has ads and makes money off of user contributed content).  That's, IMHO, a quick-fix because there is no solution such as what JRiver proposes.  Anyone moderately interested in distributing commercially viable works will not accept a similar situation.

I didn't really write a cohesive point in my prior post, just some stray thoughts -- sorry.  I was actually thinking what you just wrote, I just didn't say it well.  I do not want a tool that enforces the old model of central distribution funded by advertising.  I would rather podcasts stay smaller and more independent  than be over run with advertising.

Some advertising is good quality -- in fact back to Tivo, there are about 2% of the commercials that I actually stop, rewind and watch again or show my wife. 

I certainly do not have the answers and do not think JRiver is trying to be evil, but might unintentionally veer into evil.  Of course everyone's definitiion of evil is different  -- Google famously states "do no evil"  as their motto, but most can't help but chuckle at this point. (although to be fair, they do a lot less evil than most companies of their size and influence and "Do Less Evil" isn't as catchy!)

I *DO* appreciate JRiver trying new things and experimenting and pushing the envelope.  Flashy banner ads offend but discrete text ads do not -- that was not totally clear up front.  It will take some experimenting to see what works and what does not.

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JimH

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2006, 09:32:57 am »

glynor,
Your privacy concerns are noted and understood.  We don't plan to require anything.  Tell us as much or as little as you want.  

But suppose because you've told us that you're a 33 year old male, we stopped all the ads for lady's deodorant ads and for chick flicks, and instead, we gave you ads on technology and beer?

Or suppose we gave you 20% fewer ads if you told us your age and sex?  Or we gave you free content instead of paid?

I agree that advertising can be invasive (and usually is), but the central issue is trust.  You may feel ok about Google "collecting information based on what you do" but you might not feel that way if it was Microsoft or the U.S. Defense Department doing the same.

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JimH

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2006, 09:38:02 am »

Google famously states "do no evil"  as their motto, but most can't help but chuckle at this point. (although to be fair, they do a lot less evil than most companies of their size and influence and "Do Less Evil" isn't as catchy!)
;D

Hmmm, I wonder if anyone is using "Do less evil"?
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RobOK

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2006, 09:42:38 am »

"Do Evil Only When Doing Good Doesn't Work So Well"  ?  Seems a bit wordy...
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glynor

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2006, 09:57:05 am »

I didn't really write a cohesive point in my prior post, just some stray thoughts -- sorry.  I was actually thinking what you just wrote, I just didn't say it well.  I do not want a tool that enforces the old model of central distribution funded by advertising.  I would rather podcasts stay smaller and more independent  than be over run with advertising.

Some advertising is good quality -- in fact back to Tivo, there are about 2% of the commercials that I actually stop, rewind and watch again or show my wife. 

I totally agree with both of these points!!  The only real difference is that I think (and it seems you might too) that this idea, if well executed, could help to ensure that podcasting does stay small and independant.  That is certainly the power and promise of podcasting.

Everyone has a bullhorn as big as that of Fox News.  That's nothing to sneeze at, especially if there's also the potential to make money with that bullhorn.

As I alluded to before, I think that's the dirty little secret behind the big ISPs wanting to abandon net neutrality.  Sure, it's a also about VOIP and killing Vonage.  It's a little bit about sucking more money out of Google and Microsoft.  But mostly, I think, it's about controlling the distribution medium for the "infotainment" of the future.  Same as the RIAA/MPAA fight (which isn't, and never was, about piracy).  And who are these ISP conglomerates?  Well, one of the biggest is good old Time Warner.  Awful convenient that they might want to do this...

One other little side note.... I do not agree with Jim's point much earlier about distribution of content without DRM being not commercially viable because of casual copying.  There are plenty of sites that distribute DRM-free content and make money off of it (these guys being one, emusic another, and Yahoo being a third).  It certainly can be viable.  Heck, all of the music on iTunes is also available on GnutellaNet for free, but people still buy music there in droves.  People will pay for music, even if it is available free elsewhere, provided it is easy to use (how they want to) and high quality.  DRM doesn't matter.  DRM isn't about piracy.  It's about controlling the supply chain and about monetizing format conversion.
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glynor

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2006, 09:57:38 am »

Maybe just...

"Evil sucks!"

 ;D
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glynor

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Re: www.insertz.com
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2006, 10:04:56 am »

Or....

"You're quasi-evil. You're semi-evil. You're the margarine of evil. You're the Diet Coke of evil--Just one calorie, not evil enough."
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