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[glynor]

The previous thread is here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=36072.0

12.0.87 (10/5/06)

2. Changed: Tag Action Window doesn't show "Track #" on the first line any longer.
3. Changed: Tag window no longer uses new line during editing a field.
4. Fixed: Using the Tag window with panes visible could be overly slow.
5. NEW: Tag window uses new (more powerful) visible field selection mechanism.
6. Fixed: Tag window would use inconsistent colors for the text in the header area.
7. Changed: Image in Tag window now has an instructional tooltip.
8. Changed: Reduced the font size of the labels in the Tag window.

We got us some tag window goodness.  I'm going to have to play a bit to see how it compares, but at first blush it does look somewhat better (thanks for the "Show Tags in Current View").

It wasn't specifically mentioned, but I thought I'd post that this did fix my Tag AW "header area" overlapping the Alphabetized list below problem with the larger fonts.  Thanks!

[lalittle]

1. Changed: Got rid of the mode skipping while stopped when pressing F11.

I like this better -- it's more consistant and you don't "have" to have something playing to get to the full screen view with F11.
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2. Changed: Tag Action Window doesn't show "Track #" on the first line any longer.

I never had a problem with it dispalying on the first line -- I just thought it should ALSO have it's own line in the body of the Tag Window so it could be edited individually even when multiple songs were selected.  I agree that this is better than the previous approach, but having the track number next to the song name on the first line was also a good idea.
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5. NEW: Tag window uses new (more powerful) visible field selection mechanism.

This is a good change, but I'm still hoping for the ability to change the order of tags in the display (rather than just being stuck with alphabetical.)  This would allow us to put the "most used" tags toward the top of the list where they are easier to spot.
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One "semi-bug" with the Tag Window:  If the field is "blank," you cannot click on the "value" area to edit the field -- you HAVE to click on the field name instead.  I think you shoudl always be able to click in the "value" area to edit the field since this makes it consistant.  I like to click ON the value I want to edit, so it feels natural to click in the blank spot where the value "will" go when the field is currently blank.  Also, given the smaller field names, it takes a little more effort to have to target the "name" instead.

Also, at the moment, you have to click on the actual "word" in the value area to edit the tag.  I feel that you should be able to click ANYWHERE accross the whole line in order to edit the field, which would be consistant with other types of programs I use.  This simply makes it easier to quickly edit tags, and it's easy to see which one you're "going" to edit since it changes color (this is especially true when the tags have very short values, such as numbers.)  It would be even EASIER to quickly select tags for editing if there were grid lines.
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Theater View animations:  I'm not sure how new this change is, but the animation of the lists when in Theater View have a ranomized speed, where the rows don't all hit their final marks at the same time, and the order in which they settle changes each time.  I'm not sure how well this works, and feel that it "may" be better to have a more symetrical approach to the order in which the rows hit their marks (i.e. such as top to bottom, etc.)  I haven't fully decided on this one yet.
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All in all, some good changes in this build.  Off the top of my head, things I'd still like to see in Theater View are:

- Ability to customize the order of the list of fields (this is an IMPORTANT one to me.)  UPDATE: Using the "Show Tags in Current View" option lists the tracks in the current view FIRST, which is a VERY welcome change (thank you.)  It would still be nice, however, to be able to re-order the REST of the list as well.

- Grid Lines (these simply make it easier to peruse the list -- I ALWAYS use grid lines in the panes.)

- Different colors for read only fields (it's very handy to quickly see editable vs.non-editable fields.)
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12. Fixed: 3D Pong did not render properly.
13. Fixed: 3D Pong had too much drag on the ball, causing dead balls, after extended play.

Okay, NOW the program is finished and you guys can all retire  

Thanks,

Larry

[slipknot]

This is a good change, but I'm still hoping for the ability to change the order of tags in the display (rather than just being stuck with alphabetical.)  This would allow us to put the "most used" tags toward the top of the list where they are easier to spot.

When I have show fields for the current view selected, the tag fields are display order which I really like.
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It would be even EASIER to quickly select tags for editing if there were grid lines.

YES

[Jaguu]

Strong improvement in the tagging action window, Congratulations!

A few things I noticed:

1) I can hide the format tag by removing the check mark in "Show also", but I cannot remove the Filename tag, which is rarely necessary to display as it rarely changes (or is mostly changed by "Rename file from Properties")

2) If I add extra tags with "Show tags", they display below the Filename Tag, which looks a little bit clumsy having this rather unimportant information in the middle.

3) "Also Show" would be more concise to name "Show/Hide individually". I really like the idea of selecting "Show Tags in Current View" and the possibility to add/hide tags individually.

4) Editing tag is clumsy. If I have 50 or 100 values I may not know whether I already added a certain value or not, so I have to scroll first the whole list before I can add a new value. If I just have to make a correction like replacing "NewYork" by "New York" I have to add a new value and remove the old value! That's not the way to go! It is as already suggested easier and simpler to enter a few characters and do a matching if needed. If I enter "Par" it would suggest "Paris", which I can override. The same mechanism as renaming fields with F2!

And some nice to have:

1) I also find that there is too much standard information displayed. Most of the time I do not care about filetype, filesize and if I want to see the dimensions field I can simply add the dimensions tag which makes the information displayed redundant.

2) Would be nice to have a move up/down mechanism to order tags, maybe by just dragging them up or down similar to the Start Menu in Windows where you can move programs around by simply dragging them around.

3) Would be nice to also add the tags used in the pane view as those are not necessarily repeated in the Current View. If I have Album and Artist in the pane view I don't repeat them in the current view, so those tags should be added as well.

4) As I use "customize current Views" quite often, it would be a big time saver if I could select all the tags I want by simply clicking them and add them in one go!. Also "Save presets" would be nice to be a select field like "Load/Delete Presets" as I always have to check first with "Load" the currently loaded view! Or display the the name of the currently loaded view! The same would be handy when adding/editing view schemes!

[dcwebman]

Now we're talking about a more usable tag window!!

Clicking on Name at top of list edits the Name field if listed below but depending on how many tags are shown, the user may not see that without scrolling down and think it just disappeared. (Same with Date field). If the Name (or Date) field isn't displayed below the editing takes place at the same location. It might be better to do the same even if the fields are displayed below.

The value in the edit field has the cursor at the end. Depending on the length of the value, the front may not be visible. It might be better to put the cursor at the front.

Without gridlines, the information just runs together. If gridlines aren't possible, doing a every other background highlighting per field would be helpful.

Without hovering over a field to see (click to edit), there is no way to know at a glance what you can edit and what you can't.

In the Also Show menu, Reset all checks doesn't uncheck Playlists even though you can do it manually.

--------------

Let's say I have the Playlists menu open and am nested in a few child items. If I close the Playlists tree by clicking the Playlists down arrow, if I open up Playlists again, the tree has been collapsed again and I have to work my way down the tree again to find out where I was. I have Auto Expand turned off. The tree should be remembered when opening the Playlists again.

--------------

There is no way to find out what size cover images are to determine if you want to find better ones elsewhere. It would be nice to have the File Size and Dimensions displayed just as if the image was imported and you were looking at that by itself. Right now if you hover over the cover art you get a tooltip of the filename. In the simplest solution, add a second line of the tooltip with this information like: 300x298 - 17.5KB. Another solution is to add a header or footer in the Image window with the information of the image name and dimensions.

[Magic_Randy]

5. NEW: Tag window uses new (more powerful) visible field selection mechanism.
6. Fixed: Tag window would use inconsistent colors for the text in the header area.
7. Changed: Image in Tag window now has an instructional tooltip.
8. Changed: Reduced the font size of the labels in the Tag window.

I now like the tagging in 12.0.87 better than MC11.

[Jaguu]

Any more comments about the new tagging changes in 12.0.87? Definitely a big step into the right direction!

[gappie]

one thing that i dont like about the new tagging action window is that when yuo use a list field, it is not possible to just type, or just copy and paste from an other field. you have to make new tag for every value that is new and scroll through the list for values that are already there.

but maybe it is something to get used to.

[dcwebman]

Matt asked:

If anyone can post a nice looking mock-up of gridlines in the Tag window with the Noire skin, we'll consider implementing it.

From our experimentation, grid-lines looked out of place and cluttered.

Here are the mockups/MC 11 non-mockups that were displayed:

Number 1	Number 2
Number 3	Number 4
Number 5	Number 6

MC 11 view

[JimH]

dcwebman,
Thanks for your efforts with this.  I've asked Matt for gridlines as in #1 above.

Jim

[BartMan01]

It would be nice (for those with the screen real estate) to be able to detach the tagging window.  'Comment' type fields should also display on more than one line.

[dcwebman]

dcwebman,
Thanks for your efforts with this.  I've asked Matt for gridlines as in #1 above.
Jim

Jim,
You're welcome. You do realize though that number 1 is basically MC 11 with the top of MC 12 on it.  I do like the narrower space lines like in 6 though so there's no so much scrolling as number 1 would be.

[slipknot]

Jim,
You're welcome. You do realize though that number 1 is basically MC 11 with the top of MC 12 on it. 

Ssssssssh....

I do like the narrower space lines like in 6 though so there's no so much scrolling as number 1 would be.

You must be young...  My 47 year old eyes like the little extra space to help keep things apart.  Now when I was 40 (before I needed reading glasses) I may have agreed with you.

Some programs have novice and advanced modes, maybe we need a "young man" and "old man" mode?   

[dcwebman]

You must be young...  My 47 year old eyes like the little extra space to help keep things apart.  Now when I was 40 (before I needed reading glasses) I may have agreed with you.

Nope, one year younger than you. I just have a 14" widescreen laptop and the less vertical scrolling I have to do, the better!

[lalittle]

You must be young...  My 47 year old eyes like the little extra space to help keep things apart.  Now when I was 40 (before I needed reading glasses) I may have agreed with you.

You may want to try playing with the font size in the "Tree and View" options -- this may offer a solution for you.

I can see the advantage to both approaches -- more space certainly makes it easier to see the information, but less scrolling is definitely a good thing, and with the grid lines that Jim said they're adding, the list will become easier to view, so I think it's a good tradeoff.

I do feel that with such small text and closely packed rows, the entire row needs to be a "hot spot" for clicking the field for editing rather than just the words themselves.  The words can be difficult to QUICKLY target, especially when the word is very short.

Larry

[slipknot]

Nope, one year younger than you. I just have a 14" widescreen laptop and the less vertical scrolling I have to do, the better!

Hmmmm.  I have a 21" monitor....  must be the concussion I had 7 seven years ago from a motorcycle accident.  Or my mouse aim is not as good.  Or, I know, it's my parents fault!

[JimH]

Gridlines were introduced in tonight's build, 89.

We think we're done with tagging now.  Please let us know what you think.

[KeystoneCop]

if you select  2 files, and click on album it shows 2. to select from. Name should work the same way. it does NOT

[Matt]

if you select  2 files, and click on album it shows 2. to select from. Name should work the same way. it does NOT

Name is not an auto-complete drop list by design.  The thinking is that names are normally unique and that since there are so many, it'd be an unmanageable list.

[dcwebman]

The looks are definitely there now.

Clicking on Name at top of list edits the Name field if listed below but depending on how many tags are shown, the user may not see that without scrolling down and may think it just disappeared. (Same with Date field). If the Name (or Date) field isn't displayed below the editing takes place at the same location. It would be better to do the same editing up top if the upper 2 fields are clicked even if the fields are displayed below.

The value in the edit field has the cursor at the end. Depending on the length of the value, the front may not be visible. It might be better to put the cursor at the front.

In the Also Show menu, Reset all checks doesn't uncheck Playlists even though you can do it manually.

I don't think the different menu options are working correctly. I had quite a few fields displayed and then selected "Show Default Tags". I expected the minimum number of tags to then be displayed. The fields displayed were a lot more than that. I "think" the default tags are Album, Artist, Date, Genre, Name, Track #.

In the "Show Tags In Current View", I had Bitrate displayed in my view and it displayed in the Tag window. However, when I went to the Also Show menu, I expected to see Bitrate checked but it wasn't. Same with Genre and some other tags. I expected to see the fields displayed to be checked at that time.

[Matt]

I don't think the different menu options are working correctly. I had quite a few fields displayed and then selected "Show Default Tags". I expected the minimum number of tags to then be displayed. The fields displayed were a lot more than that. I "think" the default tags are Album, Artist, Date, Genre, Name, Track #.

Clear the "Also Show" list.

[dcwebman]

Clear the "Also Show" list.

OK, so Show Default Tags isn't Show JUST Default Tags, it's make sure Default Tags are shown within whatever your list is.

[glynor]

We think we're done with tagging now.  Please let us know what you think.

Ding dong the witch is dead!   

It's come quite a way.  I'd still like my "detachable" tagging window, but I'm happy and using it.  I'd say, you'll never really be done now will you?  But still... If you want to pretend like you're done for a little while, that's fine.  You earned it.

[lalittle]

Clicking on Name at top of list edits the Name field if listed below but depending on how many tags are shown, the user may not see that without scrolling down and may think it just disappeared. (Same with Date field). If the Name (or Date) field isn't displayed below the editing takes place at the same location. It would be better to do the same editing up top if the upper 2 fields are clicked even if the fields are displayed below.

I ran into this as well.  It's really odd to have the field simply disappear from view and to have to scroll the TW in order to edit the field you just clicked on.

One other small thing that would be nice to see would be the ability to DE-activate a field that was clicked on by clicking a blank area of the TW (like where it says "Tag.")  This is simply intuitve to me when I accidentally click a field or decide I don't want to change it after all.

Thanks again to JR for listenning to our feedback and making some really outstanding changes to the AW recently.

Larry

[park]

Before you totally finish with it, I like someone's previous suggestion of swapping the the placing of the ratings, and the file summary info. The ratings would fit nice and snugly next to the thumbnail, and the file summary info would have some more breathing space, and less wrapping if it were centered below the thumbnail.

Also, please, please show the ratings field with "Varies" for mutiple selections, or with the word "Average" above it and show the average rating. At the moment, it looks like none of my files have been tagged and makes me want to tag them all to 3 stars (my default).

I have to say that I dont like the gridlines much. Looks like an exel sheet again. But it bothers me less than not having them bothered everyone else so I'll live with it.

[lalittle]

Before you totally finish with it, I like someone's previous suggestion of swapping the the placing of the ratings, and the file summary info. The ratings would fit nice and snugly next to the thumbnail, and the file summary info would have some more breathing space, and less wrapping if it were centered below the thumbnail.

On the subject of ratings, I'd still like to be able to completely remove them from the TW since I simply never use them.  It's always struck me as really odd that this is one of the few fields that is "always on."  I just don't have any desire to "rate" the songs in my library.

I have to say that I dont like the gridlines much. Looks like an exel sheet again. But it bothers me less than not having them bothered everyone else so I'll live with it.

I'm really sorry to hear this given just how much MORE I like the gridlines -- I personally consider them to be downright necessary.  I think that JR did an excellent job of striking a balance between keeping the gridlines very subtle, yet still having them visible enough to serve their purpose.  If I don't look right at the TW, I don't even notice that there are gridlines present, yet when I need to work in the TW, they REALLY make things easier.  I honestly don't agree that it looks like Excel due to the choices JR made with the color and shading -- Excel has much, MUCH more obvious gridlines.  In my opinion, the new TW gridlines totally "blend in" with the rest of the MC layout.

Larry

[Jaguu]

On the subject of ratings, I'd still like to be able to completely remove them from the TW since I simply never use them.  It's always struck me as really odd that this is one of the few fields that is "always on."  I just don't have any desire to "rate" the songs in my library.

Yes, I am also one that does not use ratings at all. I would prefer an option  to deactivate ratings completely.

[JimH]

We're done.

[dcwebman]

We're done.

Clicking on Name at top of list edits the Name field if listed below but depending on how many tags are shown, the user may not see that without scrolling down and may think it just disappeared. (Same with Date field). If the Name (or Date) field isn't displayed below the editing takes place at the same location. It would be better to do the same editing up top if the upper 2 fields are clicked even if the fields are displayed below.

Fair enough. Even though I consider the above a problem, I'll just have to treat the top information as read only and just do all my editing in the table. Just trying to prevent any new users from thinking there is a bug.

[Cmagic]

Hello Folks,

I'm kind of a newbie on MC12 but I like the new tagging window as it is in build 89. It does a good job with my 49 years old eyes. Alright I have a 22" screen...

Good to see MC12 is still progressing !

Have a good day,

Christian

[lalittle]

We're done.

What about the bugs?  I assume you still want us to report things that strike us as "problems," correct?  For example, when you click on the "name" field at the top of the list, if the entire tag window isn't visible and the "name" field is also active in the main list, the entire field simply disappears and you literally cannot see that the field you're editing is "active" -- you have to scroll the TW to see that you're currently editing this field.  I think this classifies as a "bug" that could easily confuse people depending on how they have their TW set up.

Note that you won't notice this if the ENTIRE TW is visible, or if the name field is not checked in the "other tags" list.  I noticed it completely by accident, however, so I know it's possible to run into this.

Larry

[slipknot]

Thanks for the changes, but I didn't get everything I wanted.... 

I have to admit, I like the tagging in v11 better than v12, even with these changes.  But v12 tagging is totally usable now and I'll get used to the functionality losses (in my opinion of course) over time.

For the record...

1.  cells still too close together which requires greater mouse accuracy.
2.  colon-delimited fields should have the first choice be typing rather than mousing.  Mouse use and use of the select list should be optional, not required.  I can tab into a colon-delimited field, but how does one tab out of it and give focus to the next field? 

[JimH]

We're done.

[lalittle]

1.  cells still too close together which requires greater mouse accuracy.

This is a tradeoff -- the closer the fields, the less scrolling required, which is a good thing.  Now that they have the gridlines, I think they've found an acceptable balance in this regard.

2.  colon-delimited fields should have the first choice be typing rather than mousing.  Mouse use and use of the select list should be optional, not required.  I can tab into a colon-delimited field, but how does one tab out of it and give focus to the next field? 

This is one of the points of using "List" type fields instead of one of the other types -- i.e. to have it give you a choice of checkboxes RATHER THAN a dropdown list.  If you want the behavior you're looking for, you can change the field to one of the other field types.  While this would technically not limit the field to only certain entries, it WOULD allow you to select from a dropdown list, and typing would auto-complete with the existing entries.

Larry

[glynor]

I wanted to thank you Larry for your enthusiastic advocacy for change in this area.  I doubt that we'd all be as satisfied as we are without your efforts (and even if you aren't completely happy now, you must admit it is much better than it was).

Thanks.

 

[KeystoneCop]

Name is not an auto-complete drop list by design.  The thinking is that names are normally unique and that since there are so many, it'd be an unmanageable list.

I don't need a complete list, but a list of those selected would be GREAT.  this allows for fixing names that almost the same but NOT

Now I am DONE

[slipknot]

Jim - I know you're done....

This is one of the points of using "List" type fields instead of one of the other types -- i.e. to have it give you a choice of checkboxes RATHER THAN a dropdown list.  If you want the behavior you're looking for, you can change the field to one of the other field types.  While this would technically not limit the field to only certain entries, it WOULD allow you to select from a dropdown list, and typing would auto-complete with the existing entries.

I need these fields to allow multiple entries - hence my use of a colon-delimited field type.

For example, I have a field for genre that allows multiple colon delimited entries.  And when tagging, IT IS SO MUCH EASIER to type in "Blues;Live" with my hands remaining on the keyboard, than the new method of finding the mouse, scrolling around, finding "Blues" and "Live" and clicking and then clicking that I'm done and then clicking in the next tag field to give it focus and then finally I can go back to the keyboard.

So for me, I'd like the first choice be a text field where I can type the value(s) I want instead of the scrolling list of check boxes.  Maybe still provide a button to bring up the clickable selections, and anyone wanting to use it, will need their hands on the mouse anyway... 

As programs get "easier" to use for the masses, they become harder and harder to use for those than can type...

[lalittle]

I wanted to thank you Larry for your enthusiastic advocacy for change in this area.  I doubt that we'd all be as satisfied as we are without your efforts (and even if you aren't completely happy now, you must admit it is much better than it was).

Thanks.

 

Thanks glynor.  I TOTALLY agree that it's MUCH better than in it was, and I am definitely happy with the current setup (even if they didn't include every single change I advocated.)  I'd say that JR addressed all the really "important" points, and that the new TW is once again a powerful tool conducive to doing tagging work.  At this point, I'd probably have to say that MC12 has surpassed MC11 in this regard.  Compared to MC11, MC12's TW looks "cleaner," offers a few advantages in the way you set it up, and now retains the features that made MC11's TW work so well.

I would like to return the thanks, and to once again thank everybody for giving their feedback (both positive and negative) and for supporting the changes that I feel have made MC a better program.  I'd like to also think JR once again for listenning to our feedback and implementing these changes.

Thanks,

Larry

[dynamic]

CAN "File Type Info" BE ENTERED BACK INTO V.12 PLEASE in addition Cover art option is gone.
"Display" doesn't give me the same capabilities, I would like to request that "cover art" be returned as well.

[Alex B]

The old "File Type Info" is integrated with the Format field. Click the field to expand it.

Similarly you can expand the small cover image in the top left corner of the AW Tag Info by clicking it. This opens a bigger image display that has a right-click menu for image options.

[dynamic]

thanks, that did the trick, i wish it were as easy to access like in previous versions.

The old "File Type Info" is integrated with the Format field. Click the field to expand it.

Similarly you can expand the small cover image in the top left corner of the AW Tag Info by clicking it. This opens a bigger image display that has a right-click menu for image options.