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[Osho]

Hi,

I am unable to assign cover art to .iso files. Is there a reason why I shouldn't be able to do this?

I have some movies as .ISO files and I would love to see them as nice movie icon in theater view.

thanks,
Osho

[scottlindner]

How are you playing the ISO files in MC12?  I figured out how to manually import an ISO file (auto won't do it) but when I try to play it MC12 opens up DVD Decryptor.

[JimH]

I'm not very knowledgable in this area, but I believe you need to have Directshow filters installed.  Try reading about CCCP in this wiki article:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DirectShow_Playback_Guide

A google search might also help.

[Alex B]

scottlinder,

Check my reply here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=41568.msg303159#msg303159

You can use cover art with DVD videos when the files are in a VIDEO_TS folder. In general, ISO is not intended to be a playback format.

[scottlindner]

So there isn't a way to playback from ISOs?

ISOs are intended to be an archive.  It has nothing to do with intention of playback or not.  Just as I maintain my extensive CD collection as APE and FLAC for the same reason.

[rebecca1]

To import into MC you need to use the shell integration and import them using explorer (or drag and drop)

To assign cover art you need to set the iso filetype to be 'video'  media type - but to play them you need to assign them to be 'data'.

easiest way is to import all your isos, select all, then edit the tag for all the files so that media type is 'video', then assign cover art, then select all and set the tag to be 'data'

[rebecca1]

Here you go scott & osho this is the extract from the wiki http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DVD_Library_in_Media_Center

ISO file
It is slightly more work to playback ISO files in MC.

Download and install Virtual clone Drive software - it is free.
Enable shell integration feature of virtual clone drive.
Open the folder that contains the .iso file in Windows Explorer. Make sure that when you double-click on .iso file it is mounted on your virtual drive. If shell integration is enabled in virtual clone drive then the file should mount on virtual drive upon double clicking it in windows explorer.
Drag and drop the .iso file or the folder that contains .iso files to MC window. Or, right click on the folder containing .iso file and click on Media Center -> Import (assuming that the shell integration feature of MC is enabled). MC will import all the .iso files in its library.
These .iso files are visible under Documents in MC. Double click on the .iso file inside MC. This should mount the file on the virtual drive. You can set-up MC to start playing DVD automatically in full-screen mode (Display View) when DVD is inserted. If you have setup MC this way, DVD should also start playing in full-screen mode when you double click the .iso file inside MC.
The .iso files can also show up under Video in Theater View. To do this, change the Video view scheme to include both Video and Documents data type. In Standard View, there are three Audio, Images and Video buttons on the left. Right click on Video button and select "Edit View Scheme". This will pop up a dialog box where you can select Media Type under Step 4 (at the bottom of the window). By default it would have Media Type: Video. Click on Video there and select "Edit (with wizard)". This would show a Media Type window. In that select both Data and Video and click OK. Now, the View Scheme window should show Media Type: Data, Video. Click OK. Now, when you click on Video in theater view you should see all documents in it too. If you have other documents than .iso files in your documents tree (such as .txt etc. files) then you should get rid of them if you don't want them to be seen in theater view.

Since recent MC12 versions (12.0.251 and later), it is now possible to assign cover art to .ISO files as well. In order to do this, edit the "Media Type" tag of the .ISO file to Video. Now, assign cover art to .ISO file as you would normally do. Now, change the "Media Type" tag of the .ISO File to Data. You will have cover art assigned to the .ISO file now and you should be able to play the .ISO file as well.

[scottlindner]

You weren't kidding.  That's a royal pain.  Everytime you want to rebuild your library you gotta do this all over again for each DVD.

I wonder if better DVD Library support could be a candidate for MC13?  I have some great suggestions, but I don't know if that's appropriate.

Scott

[rebecca1]

I honestly don't think it was that bad, but it could be a lot easier.

I think best way of solving a few issues is for mc to look for a jpeg that matches the filename of the document/media file that you are importing and treat it as cover art automatically. That way as long as you have a jpeg in the folder of the same name you'd never have to do it again.

[scottlindner]

I think it'd be great to do it based on DVD/Movie metadata (I don't know if MC has this yet) and then have an assistance tool to lookup the metadata based on filename or DVD UPC number.  Here's a pretty complete list of all DVD UPC numbers to assist in the lookup: http://hometheaterinfo.com/dvdlist.htm  I don't know if there is a way to find the UPC number programatically from the DVD inserted into the ROM drive (or ISO mounted in a virtual drive).

With that information you then could easily download other movie information from IMDB.  I don't know what good sources exist for movie cover art but I do know they exist.

Scott

[scottlindner]

duh.... I forgot about the web based Movie Mayhem site.  I only use the text file for DVD lookups and totally forgot they had other information on the site.  Here's a great resource to automatically download movie information including covert art from, http://dvdlist.kazart.com/DVDList2.php

[rjm]

I don't know what good sources exist for movie cover art but I do know they exist.

The best source for high res dvd cover art that I have found is dvdempire.com.

[lotusaurus]

So if I understand the Wiki correctly, unless the Media Type tag is set to Video, I can't add cover art, and unless the Media Type is Data, I can't play the .ISO file? Sigh.

If it counts for anything, I'd like to add my vote for adding to MC the ability to play .ISO files as video, with cover art. Whether or not .ISO is an intended playback format, the fact is that many people have their DVDs backed up in .ISO format (as proof I offer the regular .ISO vs. VIDEO_TS folder debates on various forums).

[scottlindner]

So if I understand the Wiki correctly, unless the Media Type tag is set to Video, I can't add cover art, and unless the Media Type is Data, I can't play the .ISO file? Sigh.

If it counts for anything, I'd like to add my vote for adding to MC the ability to play .ISO files as video, with cover art. Whether or not .ISO is an intended playback format, the fact is that many people have their DVDs backed up in .ISO format (as proof I offer the regular .ISO vs. VIDEO_TS folder debates on various forums).

Yes.  You're right.  It's a hoaky dance.  After trying it once I decided it wasn't worth it.  So I still use two different HTPC front ends.  One for my movie support and the other for everything else (MC12).  Since I currently watch movies more frequently than listen to music I have the other program come up by default and work with my remote, and then I grab the keyboard and mouse when I want to play music.  It would be awesome if I could get down to one program that I could use with just a remote for the basic stuff.

The way I see it.  If MC is intended to play media directly from CD or DVD, then for the very same reason it should play directly from ISO.

To continue the discussion.  One might ask if I store audio CDs to ISO.  I don't.  The reason is music is enjoyable  in any order unlike a DVD where it is only enjoyable from beginning to end and as a whole.  You'd never create a playlist of DVD chapters from various DVDs and hit the shuffle button.  Although if you were drunk it could be entertaining.  The other thing is that DVDs are the perfect archival format if that is your purpose for using ISO.  Which is my purpose.  I use FLAC or Monkey's Audio for my audio archival for the very same reason.  If your purpose for not using ISO and exploding the DVD or even removing the "unnecessary" parts like different languages, extras, etc, that's great.  You can do that with ISO as well and some tools make it happen without an extra step.  If you put DVDs on your HTPC for only a temporary period like a local cache built from a Netflix subscription that you'll delete after watching, then great, neither format is better or worse.  The way I see it, the only advantage to not using ISO is because some software doesn't support ISO and most software supports the folder format.  It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

What's really crazy is the protest against the ISO format when it's already demonstrated to require a trivial amount of change to support.  As your post acknowledges.  The hard part of reading the content of an ISO is already done.  To date I have not found a rationale for why there's a group of people out there that simply "hate ISOs" without any justifiable reason.  All reasons given are not real at all.  My suspicion is that at the root of it archival is not considered as a valid reason to use a computer for storing movie content.  Which is a personal opinion at best.

Regards,
Scott

[Alex B]

I would like to know if any program is able to play a DVD video ISO file directly without mounting it as a virtual disc and making it appear under a drive letter that is visible in Windows Explorer -- i.e. without using an OS level device driver that emulates an optical drive.

I suppose it would be useful to inspect what kind of system the developers have used if such programs exist.

[fitbrit]

I would like to know if any program is able to play a DVD video ISO file directly without mounting it as a virtual disc and making it appear under a drive letter that is visible in Windows Explorer -- i.e. without using an OS level device driver that emulates an optical drive.

I suppose it would be useful to inspect what kind of system the developers have used if such programs exist.

VLC media player allows one to do this. Just drag and drop. What I used to do is to change all the movies DVD iso file extensions from .iso to .DVD and then make sure Windows knew to open .DVD files with VLC media Player.

[scottlindner]

... without mounting it as a virtual disc and making it appear under a drive letter that is visible in Windows Explorer -...

Why put this unnecessary restriction on it?  You can do the very same thing without any obvious change in usability without the user's knowledge.  It is not necessary to restrict it like this.

If anyone knows of a simple freeware recording software app that I can use to demonstrate how I play my DVDs today using another application I will gladly do this to share the recording as a demonstration.  With just a remote control I can sift through all of my DVDs, read the details of the DVDs, and play the DVD without any knowledge or visible effects that a virtual mount program is used to make it happen.  I feel this is necessary since there seems to be the assumption that using another program to virtually mount the ISO is somehow not possible or desirable.

For the record, I love MC because of how strong it's database capabilities are.  That is MC's strength that no other application seems to provide.  Which is great for my music collection which is pretty big.  My DVD collection is about 1/3 the size of my CD collection.

Scott

[rjm]

To continue the discussion.  One might ask if I store audio CDs to ISO.  I don't.  The reason is music is enjoyable  in any order unlike a DVD where it is only enjoyable from beginning to end and as a whole.  You'd never create a playlist of DVD chapters from various DVDs and hit the shuffle button.  Although if you were drunk it could be entertaining.  The other thing is that DVDs are the perfect archival format if that is your purpose for using ISO.  Which is my purpose.  I use FLAC or Monkey's Audio for my audio archival for the very same reason.  If your purpose for not using ISO and exploding the DVD or even removing the "unnecessary" parts like different languages, extras, etc, that's great.  You can do that with ISO as well and some tools make it happen without an extra step.  If you put DVDs on your HTPC for only a temporary period like a local cache built from a Netflix subscription that you'll delete after watching, then great, neither format is better or worse.  The way I see it, the only advantage to not using ISO is because some software doesn't support ISO and most software supports the folder format.  It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

Very interesting comments.

Sorry if this is a dumb question, but could you please enlighten me on the advantages of ISO over RAR for archival?

[scottlindner]

ISO is accessible without first decompressing the RAR archive to another file set.  This takes alot of time, extra disk space, and considerable CPU power in advance of accessing the content.  ISO is also the standard format for describing the content of optical media.  Since I'm using it for archiving, it only makes sense to keep it in the native format of the very media I am trying to archive.  RAR might have advantages if I were attempting to replicate the archive to a remote location, but I could just as easily do that with a torrent.

If there were a way to virtually mount a RAR archive to a file system that could be accessed without any significant ovehead to the system, I'd consider it the same as doing it with ISO.  With the exception the exploaded content is still not a true archive of the original media that's being archived.  I own alot of dead DVDs.  I decided long ago I'd keep perfect archives of them for that reason.

To the point you're "really" trying to make.  Ask yourself why people use JARs and WARs.  JARs and WARs are "not necessary" but for some reasons they are prevalent.  There must be a reason, or maybe the people that run major website are also just as dumb as us ISO users are.

So now I gotta ask one of my own questions.  Why do ISO haters hate ISO so much that they will spend more time hating them without knowing why, instead of acknowledging them as a valid format that does not personally interest them?  Flac, Ogg Vorbis, Monkey's Audio, WavePak.  Those are just as unecessary when you've got AVI and MP3 to fill their place, but why do you support them?  After all, they are not necessary but for some reason people still use them.  There must be a reason, right?  Is personal preference not good enough?

Scott

[rjm]

Thanks, much appreciated.

I personally have nothing against ISO's. One historic concern I had was that the deamons needed to mount them tended to be very invasive and somewhat buggy. I have since learned that I can open an ISO with WinRAR so I no longer have any concerns.

[lotusaurus]

I would like to know if any program is able to play a DVD video ISO file directly without mounting it as a virtual disc and making it appear under a drive letter that is visible in Windows Explorer -- i.e. without using an OS level device driver that emulates an optical drive.

I suppose it would be useful to inspect what kind of system the developers have used if such programs exist.

I'm also puzzled about why it needs to be done WITHOUT mounting it as a virtual disk. It surely doesn't mess up drive letter assignments, otherwise every virtual drive software out there would be screwing up people's systems. I can't think of any other reason why this might be an issue, but I'm sure there must be one.

However, it doesn't appear to be an issue for many other similar products. I know Xlobby handles mounting via Daemon-tools, as does Mediaportal, and as fitbrit says, VLC does play .iso files directly. (Some people have said that under VLC DVD menus are not available, and that if there is more than one movie on the .iso, it won't play the other movies; I haven't run across that problem). I understand that in Meedio the Playmee plug-in also supports Daemon-tools.

For the less technical user, I believe it's far more intuitive to click on a file named Shrek.iso than to look for a folder called VIDEO_TS or click on VIDEO_TS.IFO. (Not an issue for MC, but a general comment about the alternative non-iso approach.)

[scottlindner]

I'm also puzzled about why it needs to be done WITHOUT mounting it as a virtual disk. It surely doesn't mess up drive letter assignments, otherwise every virtual drive software out there would be screwing up people's systems. I can't think of any other reason why this might be an issue, but I'm sure there must be one.

I specify a fixed drive letter.  Just one and it never changes.  As far as my software is concerned it's the only CD/DVD ROM drive that I have.  How is this different than anyone else's configuration?

For the less technical user, I believe it's far more intuitive to click on a file named Shrek.iso than to look for a folder called VIDEO_TS or click on VIDEO_TS.IFO. (Not an issue for MC, but a general comment about the alternative non-iso approach.)

I don't think it has to do with technical understanding or not.  I think it's a matter of preference and the reasons why you prefer one format over the other.  I do it for archival purposes.  We had a DVD that has destroyed a good portion of our DVDs.  The crazy thing is we got to watch the DVD.  You didn't know it wrecked the DVD until the next time you watched it.  Yah.  That took us a long time to figure out and in the mix we had just started subscribing to Netflix.  I wonder how many bad DVDs we sent back to Netflix and didn't even know.  This is the reason when I decided to build an HTPC and I choose ISO back then since I could rent the DVDs that we own but were wrecked and could store them perfectly without loss of information.  I own it afterall, why would I accept anything less than what I paid for?  Plus the convenience of having all of my DVDs on a network attached RAID that I can thumb through and hit the Play button and I'm playing it.  That's awesome.

Scott

[Alex B]

VLC media player allows one to do this. Just drag and drop. What I used to do is to change all the movies DVD iso file extensions from .iso to .DVD and then make sure Windows knew to open .DVD files with VLC media Player.

Thanks for this info. VLC appears to be using the libcdio library for accessing disc image files.

http://www.gnu.org/software/libcdio/
http://libcddb.sourceforge.net/

The JRiver developers may want to check it out.

I wanted to know this because I assumed that direct playback support for ISO files was requested.


If mounting is good enough then it already works pretty well.

As a test, I created a new library of a few ISO-DVD Video image files. I don't have any major problems with it.

After some tweaking the ISO files show up in the video category and also in Theater View. When I double-click a file it is mounted by Virtual CloneDrive and MC starts playback automatically.

After I had the files imported and tagged I selected them all, changed the Media Type tag to Video, did a "quick find cover art" search and changed the Media Type tag back to Data. Now the ISO files have corrctly linked cover art.

In addition I exported an MPL playlist of the files. It can be used for copying the file tags and cover art links to other MC instances on other PCs and merging this ISO-DVD library with other libraries.


I hope J River will make possible to link cover art with all media types. It already works when the Media Type tag is changed manually. This should be a no brainer.

[scottlindner]

If mounting is good enough then it already works pretty well.

As a test, I creted a new library of few ISO images of DVD video discs. I don't see any major problems. After some tweaking the ISO files show up in the video category and also in Theater View. When I double-click a file it is mounted by Virtual ClodeDrive and MC starts playback automatically. After I had the files imported and tagged I selected them all, changed the Media Type tag to Video, did a "quick find cover art" search and changed the Media Type tag back to Data.
Now they have corrctly linked cover art.

I would say your following paragraph, and the post that kick started the recent discussion, indicate ISO support does not work pretty well.  It's too hoaky.  It certainly treats ISO's as an outkast but if you are masochistic enough you can do the little dance to convince MC to acknowledge an ISO as a video.  I have 100s of DVDs.  The software I use today for DVDs is as simple as pressing the "import new" button once and it nabs them all, downloads the details of the movie like when it was made, actors, movie rating, cover art, movie play time, etc.  Just like MC does for music.

OR

Are you saying that supporting ISOs *can* work pretty well, at least at the technical level of automounting and playing?  In that regard I agree.  The only catch is the MC software would need to be updated to acknowledge an ISO as a valid format so we don't have to go through the hoaky dance per movie.

I wonder if MC would serve up an automounted ISO over the network over the media server?

Cheers,
Scott

[Alex B]

I would like to split this issue to three parts:

1. Importing, playback and appearance in view schemes
2. Importing metadata from external sources
3. Cover art

1. As I said, I think this part already works. All you need to do is to change the view scheme rule so that the ISO files are included in the Video category. This is nothing extra-ordinary or complex. The users are supposed to be willing to change some settings according to their needs. After the view schemes are configured there is no need to constantly change them.

Generally speaking, the ISO disc images are data files and the default behavior to put them under "Documents" is correct. The ISO format is not limited to DVD-video anyhow and it does not tell anything about the contents.

MC does not go and alter the OS level system and install third party device drivers, but I understand that this was accepted and the users are supposed to install their virtual drives and configure the auto-mounting and auto-play features outside MC correctly.

2. This is not an ISO issue. It is related to the more general discussion about video metadata databases. Personally, I have nothing to add at this stage.

3. As I said, I can't see any reason why this could not be fixed. It is technically possible as we have seen.

[Alex B]

I wonder if MC would serve up an automounted ISO over the network over the media server?

A mounted ISO does not differ from a real DVD disc. MC uses exactly the same playback system. The library server is a streaming server and it does not support DVD videos discs.

The alternative, shared library system should work fine because the "client" would mount the disc.

[scottlindner]

I would like to split this issue to three parts:

1. Importing, playback and appearance in view schemes
2. Importing metadata from external sources
3. Cover art

Good break down of the discussion.  My only thought is cover art and metadata are the same thing.  I think your point is to separate the acknowledgement of metadata for DVD movies so MC can support it, from how you populate the metadata (cover art or not) from external sources.

1. As I said, I think this part already works. All you need to do is to change the view scheme rule so that the ISO files are included in the Video category. This is nothing extra-ordinary or complex. The users are supposed to be willing to change some settings according to their needs. After the view schemes are configured there is no need to constantly change them.

Generally speaking, the ISO disc images are data files and the default behavior to put them under "Documents" is correct. The ISO format is not limited to DVD-video anyhow and it does not tell anything about the contents.

MC does not go and alter the OS level system and install third party device drivers, but I understand that this was accepted and the users are supposed to install their virtual drives and configure the auto-mounting and auto-play features outside MC correctly.

I disagree.  Do you need to tell MC what the media type is when you insert a disc of any type into your CD/DVD ROM drive?  It already knows if it is an audio CD, data CD, or a DVD movie.  I don't know if it goes further into the CD video disc (or whatever it's called) but MC does know how to determine what the media type is already.  ISO is no different.  This is why it should not treat an ISO as a document.  It isn't a document, it's media.  A DVD movie is media.  An audio CD is media.  A data CD or DVD should be considered a document.

2. This is not an ISO issue. It is related to the more general discussion about video metadata databases. Personally, I have nothing to add at this stage.

I think it is the issue.  The trouble we're having is that we "are" viewing ISO as a bastard child, and not as valid media source.  We need to change that view.  As far as MC is concerned an ISO is the real deal.  It is the physical DVD or CD you pull out of the jewel case.  MC shouldn't care.  But since we're trying to treat an ISO as something special (a document) and not as valid media we are having this discussion. So "yes" ISO is the issue.  We need to change the way we perceive it.  It is valid media.. not some bastard child that should be outcast and treated specially.

3. As I said, I can't see any reason why this could not be fixed. It is technically possible as we have seen.

Agreed.  All of the hard parts are already in place.

Cheers,
Scott

[scottlindner]

A mounted ISO does not differ from a real DVD disc.

Ah HAH!  Now we're getting somewhere!  You acknowledge an ISO is real media.  It is not a document.

Scott

[Alex B]

Of the formats you mentioned only Audio CDs can be considered as media. The Red Book format was created to be a media format from the beginning. That's why you can't create an ISO image of an Audio CD. The used format is not supported. You need to use some other disc image format that has extended support like Nero nrg.

ISO itself is not media. It is just an image file of a data CD or DVD. An ISO image file does not contain any kind of media descriptor. At minimum a filename extension could work as a media descriptor, but virtually all media formats contain internal descriptor data.

A DVD video disc is a standard data disc. You can see and browse the included files without having any media aware programs. That's why you can create an ISO image from a DVD Video disc. The media features of a DVD Video disc can be discovered only by reading and analyzing the included files.

[scottlindner]

Alex,

I think I nailed what is making this a difficult concept for MC.  The reason I brought up the metadata is related.  I just couldn't quite connect the reason I felt it was important to bring it up.  I suspect the reason you feel an ISO is a document, and I feel it isn't is due to a limitation of sorts in MC.  I believe we need to acknowledge several different types of media in MC which also is related to the types of metadata.  What I'm saying is there are music files, the are video files, there are movies, and there are TV shows.  All of which have slightly different metadata schemas.  Maybe this is the root of the issue?  ISO is being pushed into the document mold because MC doesn't acknowledge that a movie is different than a video?  I'm stretching here.  I know you are much more knowledgeable of MC than I am.  There reason I feel the media type might matter has to do with the valid means of accessing and playing it.  An ISO by itself without knowing anything else certainly is an ISO.  But a DVD-Video or a CD-Audio, those are media types.  Is MC architected this way or is it strictly one file, one type?

Scott

[scottlindner]

Of the formats you mentioned only Audio CDs can be considered as media. The Red Book format was created to be a media format from the beginning. That's why you can't create an ISO image of an Audio CD. The used format is not supported. You need to use some other disc image format that has extended support like Nero nrg.

ISO itself is not media. It is just an image file of a data CD or DVD. An ISO image file does not contain any kind of media descriptor. At minimum a filename extension could work as a media descriptor, but virtually all media formats contain internal descriptor data.

A DVD video disc is a standard data disc. You can see and browse the included files without having any media aware programs. That's why you can create an ISO image from a DVD Video disc. The media features of a DVD Video disc can be discovered only by reading and analyzing the included files.

How does my computer know when the play a DVD in PowerDVD vs open it in Windows Explorer if it's a data DVD?  There are three different DVD standards although I don't know that much about them; DVD-Video, DVD-ROM (data), and DVD-Audio.

To your point, now you're back tracking and contradiciting that ISO is not media.  It is.  It's the real deal.  It's the same thing you shove into the computer after you pull the cellophane off the package.  It is a *real* DVD-Video disc, or a *real* DVD-ROM (data) disc, or a *real* DVD-Audio disc.  Does MC play store bought DVDs put into the drive?  Does MC play store bought high def DVD audio discs put into the drive?  Does MC ignore DVD-ROMs when put into the drive?  I admit I am not truly familiar with these specifications, but I do know my computer has no trouble knowing when to play a DVD movie or when to open a DVD-ROM in Windows Explorer.  I don't have any high def DVD-Audio discs to know what would happen.

Scott

[scottlindner]

How does my computer know when the play a DVD in PowerDVD vs open it in Windows Explorer if it's a data DVD?  There are three different DVD standards although I don't know that much about them; DVD-Video, DVD-ROM (data), and DVD-Audio.

To your point, now you're back tracking and contradiciting that ISO is not media.  It is.  It's the real deal.  It's the same thing you shove into the computer after you pull the cellophane off the package.  It is a *real* DVD-Video disc, or a *real* DVD-ROM (data) disc, or a *real* DVD-Audio disc.  Does MC play store bought DVDs put into the drive?  Does MC play store bought high def DVD audio discs put into the drive?  Does MC ignore DVD-ROMs when put into the drive?  I admit I am not truly familiar with these specifications, but I do know my computer has no trouble knowing when to play a DVD movie or when to open a DVD-ROM in Windows Explorer.  I don't have any high def DVD-Audio discs to know what would happen.

*Update*  As I thought about this it really doesn't matter that much.  *If* MC supported a metadata descriptor for ISO files so you can tell it if it's a movie, an audio disc, or a pile of files with other types of media on it or whatever, then that would be just fine for the purposes of treating it as media in MC, instead of treating it as a bastard child that has no legitimate home.

Scott

[Alex B]

How does my computer know when the play a DVD in PowerDVD vs open it in Windows Explorer if it's a data DVD?

It checks the file structure. The structure is standardized. Here is a brief explanation of it:
http://dvdxcopy.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/192714

There are three different DVD standards although I don't know that much about them; DVD-Video, DVD-ROM (data), and DVD-Audio.

These are practically the same from the file system point of view. The difference is in the contents. Player programs use the file structure and the key files for identifying the disc type and exact media format.

To your point, now you're back tracking and contradiciting that ISO is not media.  It is.  It's the real deal.  It's the same thing you shove into the computer after you pull the cellophane off the package.  It is a *real* DVD-Video disc, or a *real* DVD-ROM (data) disc, or a *real* DVD-Audio disc.

I think we could continue this discussion forever, but just now I would like to know if you have a practical problem besides the needed extra work for linking cover art.

What I am trying to say is that it doesn't practically matter if the default configuration treats ISO files as documents (aka data files) because that can be easily and permanently changed to work for the usual practical needs.

Perhaps a later version of MC can have default options for handling ISO files as video media. This would be more important if (when?) MC has support for a comprehensive on-line movie database in the future.

Does MC play store bought DVDs put into the drive?  Does MC play store bought high def DVD audio discs put into the drive?  Does MC ignore DVD-ROMs when put into the drive?  I admit I am not truly familiar with these specifications, but I do know my computer has no trouble knowing when to play a DVD movie or when to open a DVD-ROM in Windows Explorer.  I don't have any high def DVD-Audio discs to know what would happen.

It is dependend on external OS level filters. As we know, standard DVD Video is supported if the suitable filters are installed. It doesn't make any difference if the disc is store bought or burned at home. If the disc can be read and the installed filters support it MC should be able to play it.

High def. audio, Blu-ray, HD DVD etc are not similarly supported. Usually these newer formats have stronger encryption and there are no available DirectShow filters and codecs.

EDIT: I wrote this before your update.

[scottlindner]

I think we could continue this discussion forever, but just now I would like to know if you have a practical problem besides the needed extra work for linking cover art.

What I am trying to say is that it doesn't practically matter if the default configuration treats ISO files as documents (aka data files) because that can be easily and permanently changed to work for the usual practical needs.

Agreed.  It should be a simple fix to readily support ISOs.  As for the discussion continuing, the current resolution is not workable.  It really isn't.  It can be done, but imagine doing that for 100s of DVDs and uhoh... you purged your database for whatever reason and now you gotta do it all over again.  It's not a reasonable work around.  It's fine to demonstrate the capability.  As long as we agree on that and the authors of MC understand that an unsupported hack is not good enough to claim support, that's good enough for me.

I wonder how much business has been lost because of the attitude on this forum toward ISOs?  I was not going to upgrade but I made the false assumption that since I could not find any complaints about no ISO support in MC12 that it had been resolved.  If this thread was started before I upgraded, I would not have upgraded and would have already moved on to another product or solution.  There is a valid reason people want to use ISOs whether that reason is universal or not.

Cheers,
Scott

[Alex B]

Agreed.  It should be a simple fix to readily support ISOs.  As for the discussion continuing, the current resolution is not workable.  It really isn't.  It can be done, but imagine doing that for 100s of DVDs and uhoh... you purged your database for whatever reason and now you gotta do it all over again.  It's not a reasonable work around.  It's fine to demonstrate the capability.  As long as we agree on that and the authors of MC understand that an unsupported hack is not good enough to claim support, that's good enough for me.

Please explain the problem in detail. Is it related to handling ISOs inside MC or to preserving metadata in case something unfortunate happens to MC's database?

Storing library tags for ISO files is not different from any other file types that cannot store metadata in a physical file tags. For instance, all video file formats except WMV are untaggable in MC.

A library back up file contains all library data and as I said an MPL playlist file can be used as an additional backup format. It contains all library field values including the cover art link. It can be used as a sidecar file for storing and transferring metadata to other MC libraries (though only manually for now).

BTW, I don't think there is any need for "purging" the database. I established my current main database in 2002. I create a new back up file before and after any major change and in addition I have several copies of it on other PCs on our home LAN.

I wonder how much business has been lost because of the attitude on this forum toward ISOs?  I was not going to upgrade but I made the false assumption that since I could not find any complaints about no ISO support in MC12 that it had been resolved.  If this thread was started before I upgraded, I would not have upgraded and would have already moved on to another product or solution.  There is a valid reason people want to use ISOs whether that reason is universal or not.

I don't think the forum members have any kind of attitude towards ISOs. The discussion started only recently. ISO has been a non-issue until now. (I recall that I have a couple of times asked if ISO creation could be added to data CD/DVD burning.)

[scottlindner]

I see what you're saying.  I lost track of the fact that it'll play with an automount tool, and the real issue is the metadata which is a pain.  I think I got a bit caught up in the few folks that pressed the "it's not necessary" button which is pretty common on many forums for whatever reason.

Scott

[Alex B]

Independently from the used archive format (whether it is DVD video on a hard drive or a more compressed video file format) I don't have problems with metadata in MC.

I use a very minimalist tagging system for movies and TV series. I add the name, genre, director (I use the artist field for this) and year tags. My TV series files have also the season, episode and album tags.

Whenever I want to get detailed information I usually just check IMDb or Wikipedia. I also have my DVD Video discs catalogued in DVD Profiler.

[scottlindner]

Independently from the used archive format (whether it is DVD video on a hard drive or a more compressed video file format) I don't have problems with metadata in MC.

I use a very minimalist tagging system for movies and TV series. I add the name, genre, director (I use the artist field for this) and year tags. My TV series files have also the season, episode and album tags.

Whenever I want to get detailed information I usually just check IMDb or Wikipedia. I also have my DVD Video discs catalogued in DVD Profiler.

Can you do this with a document?  I ask because if you can, I haven't figured that out (and I believe others haven't figured it out either) and the real issue is automated metadata tagging.

Scott

[jmone]

High def. audio, Blu-ray, HD DVD etc are not similarly supported. Usually these newer formats have stronger encryption and there are no available DirectShow filters and codecs.

While it is a rapidly developing area, there are filters are out and working for Blu-ray/HD-DVD.....Here is the latest from AVS on getting it going in MPC & as I've posted before the same techniques work in MC12 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892527

Regarding Playback from HDD:  I agree in general with the OP.  I've even seen lots of threads on this board about MC12 ISO support (and lack there of).  While personally I store just the main movie as a single file (or playback from original disk), ISOing is a valid approach now supported by other movie players as it is relativly easy for users to rip a DVD / Blu-ray / HD-DVD to an ISO format for both archival and playback. 

Regarding Movie Mgt & Info:  Also this is an area where other media players are really starting to push ahead in Movie management by grabing both Coverart and associated data from online sources:


Nathan

[scottlindner]

I'm sure this is intended to be obvious but what software are those screenshots of?  Do you have full screen shots available so I can check out the detail?

Scott

[Alex B]

Can you do this with a document?  I ask because if you can, I haven't figured that out (and I believe others haven't figured it out either) and the real issue is automated metadata tagging.

   Maybe you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that MC can automatically get metadata from IMDb, Wikipedia or DVD Profiler. (I guess you didn't mean to ask how document files can be tagged, but if you did, the answer is: like any other library files.)

JRiver's YADB database can be used for DVD video metadata lookups and submissions. It can contain only a few tags and I don't think it has a very good selection yet (the video part of YADB is a relatively new feature). It works with mounted DVDs, but not directly with ISO files.

I have no problem with using a separate interface like a web browser or DVD Profiler when I want to know things like production details, filming locations, career details of the involved people, trivia, mishaps etc. I don't think MC's general purpose user interface could compete with a specifically designed web site or DVD Profiler's specialized single-purpose interface even if the database would be fully tagged. MC's power is in other areas.

Personally, I don't need an automated video metadata tagging system inside MC. I can very well add the few tags I use manually. I spend a lot of time in creating each movie file on the hard drive.  I can automatically get a couple of tags from my filename structure and it really doesn't matter if I spend a few seconds more with adding some additional tags.

In my opinion this differs from ripping audio CDs. I have about 45000 audio tracks in my MC library. If I would need to start from the scratch I would definitely use an online database.

[jmone]

Alex, As with you I don't need (at this stage) the online lookup and mgt of Videos (DVD / Blu-ray / HD-DVD) simply as most of what I manage in MC12 is Home Videos and TV Shows that I've ripped myself into Episodes, which uses the directory structure to create the few tags I need for browsing in T'View but this is not the point.....others could/should/will/may/etc what to use MC12 to manage large Video collections and other HTPC's Front Ends and doing some interesting stuff (as per the screen post above). 

Some of what makes MC12's great is the almost unlimited format support and the organisational flexibility....but you need to populate the tags/thumbs and get the best out of it.  As you pointed out, with a large Audio collection you would use an online database to do this, and Video (incl DVD, Blu-ray, HD-DVD) is going to be no different.  The area keeps evolving and at this stage I see that MC12 needs to look at:
- Format Support: ISO, Blu-ray, HD-DVD
- On Line Video Tags/Thumbs

Nathan

[Alex B]

While it is a rapidly developing area, there are filters are out and working for Blu-ray/HD-DVD.....Here is the latest from AVS on getting it going in MPC & as I've posted before the same techniques work in MC12 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=892527

Regarding Playback from HDD:  I agree in general with the OP.  I've even seen lots of threads on this board about MC12 ISO support (and lack there of).  While personally I store just the main movie as a single file (or playback from original disk), ISOing is a valid approach now supported by other movie players as it is relativly easy for users to rip a DVD / Blu-ray / HD-DVD to an ISO format for both archival and playback. ...

I could have added the words "free" and "easily" before the word available (perhaps also "legally"). As you said, this is a moving target, but the new HD video formats don't have widespread support yet. The high resolution audio formats, DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD have even less support if at all.

Also, I have not seen many ISO playback related threads. Maybe only the two recent threads. Though, I have not tried a search yet.

As I explained, I think the ISO format works quite well and it does not need repeated tweaking after the relatively simple initial configuration. Perhaps I could create a how-to post or Wiki article sometime in the new future, but I would like to see cover art support expanded to document files first. I already have some pdf, txt and htm files with linked cover art (I have used the "media type" workaround).

- On Line Video Tags/Thumbs

For comprehensive movie information JRiver would probably need to make a commercial deal with some data provider. They can't legally just go and rip data from existing web sites. For example, DVD profiler started its user submission based database many years ago and I don't think that kind of approach would be possible anymore. Naturally, a new attractive method for displaying the extensive data would be needed, but JRiver can do that kind of things in-house.

[lotusaurus]

I'm sure this is intended to be obvious but what software are those screenshots of?  Do you have full screen shots available so I can check out the detail?

Scott

Scott, they're from Meedios (check out the image link address) - looks fantastic, doesn't it?

[jmone]

Alex - I agree.  Interestingly (and I can not find the source at the moment) I read that the (combined) HD formats are showing a faster take up rate than that of DVD...and it was the fastest consumer rate take up to date.

[lotusaurus]

As I explained, I think the ISO format works quite well and it does not need repeated tweaking after the relatively simple initial configuration. Perhaps I could create a how-to post or Wiki article sometime in the new future, but I would like to see cover art support expanded to document files first. I already have some pdf, txt and htm files with linked cover art (I have used the "media type" workaround).

I don't disagree that MC can handle ISOs once we get some other software to automount the ISO file, but that hasn't been the issue here. The issue is attaching Cover Art in a simple non-kludgy, non-workaround way. If I just wanted to be able to click on an ISO file and have it automounted and then played like a DVD, I'd hardly need to use MC. It's the Cover Art that provides the experience. It's not the can that's important, it's the how.

[scottlindner]

  Maybe you misunderstood me. I didn't mean that MC can automatically get metadata from IMDb, Wikipedia or DVD Profiler. (I guess you didn't mean to ask how document files can be tagged, but if you did, the answer is: like any other library files.)

Sorry.  I didn't mean automated.  I meant manual tagging of an ISO as if it were a VIDEO_TS.

Scott

[scottlindner]

I could have added the words "free" and "easily" before the word available (perhaps also "legally").

I must ask, why did you throw down the illegal flag on this topic?  Could it be because it is not important to you?

It would be wise to keep the legality discussion out of this.  I own all of my content.  I can prove it if the RIAA and Hollywood bastards bashed down my door with the FBI and US Marshalls in their back pockets.  Recently the RIAA has been trying to convince lawmakers that it is illegal to simply changing the format of what you already own.  The fair use laws create a very fuzzy situation on this topic and I believe we'll see new laws in the near future.  As far as I'm concerned, the legality of what I do is not your business.  What is your business is that you and where MC is going does not violate any laws.  However, since you picked this one law to bring up, I bet we could dig into MC and find numerous patent violations and other laws broken.  By accident and completely unknowingly of course.  So unless you want to create an all out "I'm breaking less laws than you are" war, I feel it would be best to couch the legal discussion for a specific topic that involves the developers and those so motivated only.

Regards,
Scott

[scottlindner]

Also, I have not seen many ISO playback related threads. Maybe only the two recent threads. Though, I have not tried a search yet.

Those threads go back to MC11.  Several months ago I had dueling threads going at the same time on the topic.  In one of those threads is where I got my "it's not necessary" quote I've been using in this thread.  Which is also where I added that the majority of formats MC supports are not necessary either.  For whatever reason I cannot find this thread but if you do some digging you'll see this discussion goes back to MC11.

Scott

[scottlindner]

Scott, they're from Meedios (check out the image link address) - looks fantastic, doesn't it?

Yes.  They are.  I should take some shots of what I'm doing with BeyondMedia w/ the DVD Library plugin.  Hmm.. maybe I should also show what I've got going with the "JRiver Media Center" plugin.    The MC plugin works but is clunky.  My real challenge in trying to switch from BeyondMedia is that it's a dead baseline and is becoming very difficult to maintain when I want to make changes.  After using MC for my music and I saw the theater view I held out hope it would grow to become a full featured HTPC frontend.

I still don't see how to get to the full resolution screenshots.  I see a link to an AVS Forum thread but that thread doesn't have those screenshots.

Scott