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[benn600]

I received a Facebook invite for a "protest" to not buy gasoline on May 15th.  First, I'd like to hear everyone's opinion on what it could do if a huge percentage of gasoline purchasers skipped that day.  It seems like prices should theoretically drop.  Second, can you work around that day and try to avoid a gasoline purchase then?

Don't mean to be making crazy attempts to lower gas prices, but the Facebook group is growing with supporters and it would be neat to see what kind of impact such an action could have.

[JONCAT]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/nogas.asp

Here's a comment from a friend of mine (not that I agree with him exactly):

You really don't even have to go to the link.  If you just think about it for a minute you realize why this would never even make a dent in the market, even if everybody in the entire world decided to partake.

If you really want to put a dent in the Oil market i propose the following:

On May 15 go to the gas station and buy a 5 Gal. plastic gas container, fill it up, and then drive to your nearest Wal-Mart.  Once you've arrived at the Wal-Mart parking lot dump the 5 Gal. container of gasoline on your car, and then light it on fire, and then walk away.

If everybody did that, that would have a much bigger impact on the oil market than the May 15 boycott.

Another thought to ponder:
 
"Every time the Fed prints up another batch of crisp $100 bills; they’re confiscating the hard-earned savings of working class people and retirees. And, since the dollar has dropped roughly 40% since Bush took office in 2000; the government has absconded with 40% our life savings."

 
The price of gasoline is rising simply because the dollar is falling.

DC

[marko]

If it makes you feel any better, I filled up last Saturday @ £0.93 GBP / litre.

That's getting on for almost £5 for a gallon of petrol, or £60.00 to fill up from empty. Bleedin' ridiculous!!

How much you guys paying over there atm?

[Mastiff]

Marko, you won't get much sympathy from me! Norwegians pay around 1 pound at the moment, and last summer we were at times paying 1,2 pounds per litre, wich should be around nine dollars per gallon. Another thing is that I pay less than half for my fuel. But that's because I have been sensible enough to convert my big, (normally) gas guzzling Chevrolet Suburban to LPG, which is a liquid mixture of propane and buthane. 10 % less power, but that was never the problem with my 225 horsepower V8 anyway!

[hit_ny]

The British gallon = 4.546 litres

The US gallon = 3.785 litres

Adjust accordingly.

come to think of it, the pints are bit short  too !

Why smaller instead of larger  ?

[GHammer]

Hohum. If I were in the US, I'd be MUCH more concerned why basic agricultural products are being imported from China.

Ha, I live here and I know what sort of 'care' is taken with food, medicine, etc.

I thought North America was 'The Breadbasket of the World"
And now you let greedy corporate pukes begin to corrupt the last thing that hasn't fallen victim to the 'competitiveness' fairy tale.

But yes, by all means, let's join a 'movement' that will have no impact on an issue that you actually have control over. Don't like gas prices? Drive less and drive smaller.

Or go get a refinery built in your town. Hasn't been a new one in the US in decades. "Refinery!? In MY city!? Not on your life!"

[JONCAT]

"Hohum. If I were in the US, I'd be MUCH more concerned why basic agricultural products are being imported from China."

Truer words have never been spoken.

My wife looked this up the other day when this same discussion was bounced between friends via email:

Netherlands     Amsterdam     $6.48
Norway    Oslo    $6.27
Italy    Milan    $5.96
Denmark    Copenhagen    $5.93
Belgium    Brussels    $5.91
Sweden    Stockholm    $5.80
United Kingdom    London    $5.79
Germany    Frankfurt    $5.57
France    Paris    $5.54
Portugal    Lisbon    $5.35
Hungary    Budapest    $4.94
Luxembourg       $4.82
Croatia    Zagreb    $4.81
Ireland    Dublin    $4.78
Switzerland    Geneva    $4.74
Spain    Madrid    $4.55
Japan    Tokyo    $4.24
Czech Republic    Prague    $4.19
Romania    Bucharest    $4.09
Andorra       $4.08
Estonia    Tallinn    $3.62
Bulgaria    Sofia    $3.52
Brazil    Brasilia    $3.12
Cuba    Havana    $3.03
Taiwan    Taipei    $2.84
Lebanon    Beirut    $2.63
South Africa    Johannesburg    $2.62
Nicaragua    Managua    $2.61
Panama    Panama City    $2.19
Russia    Moscow    $2.10
Puerto Rico    San Juan    $1.74
Saudi Arabia    Riyadh    $0.91
Kuwait    Kuwait City    $0.78
Egypt    Cairo    $0.65
Nigeria    Lagos    $0.38
Venezuela    Caracas    $0.12

But yes this issue seems like a red herring with all the other major issues swirling around....health care crisis, The Debt, the whim...I mean, the war.

DC

[hit_ny]

Saudi Arabia    Riyadh    $0.91
Kuwait    Kuwait City    $0.78

seems bit steep in comparison to

Egypt    Cairo    $0.65 (non OPEC country)
Nigeria    Lagos    $0.38
Venezuela    Caracas    $0.12

Surely kuwait's has to be the cheapest ever on the planet.

[JimH]

I rented a Honda Civic hybrid on a trip recently.  Gets 45MPG.  It was a great car, very smooth, no difference between it and a "normal" car except that the engine would sometimes quit when I stopped at a light.  As soon as I took my foot off the brake, it started again -- all very smoothly done.

[benn600]

I completely understand how it really won't do a single thing for the overall consumption because like someone said, they'll buy gas before or after May 15th.  I just got the Facebook invite and thought it would be cool to see if one person (the creator of that group) could spread the word to a huge section of the population.

Then I noticed all the BUY GAS on May 15th groups.  So forget it.  I guess people have lost their will to act as a team.  I guess some of the American public just isn't on our team anymore.  Some people would rather mess up a simple plan.

And again, then I noticed that we just had a Take the Stairs day at school.  I made it a point to take the elevator, taking it around 15 times that day.

[bob]

seems bit steep in comparison to

Surely kuwait's has to be the cheapest ever on the planet.

Kuwait has a small and relatively prosperous population, they are probably paying production price. Nigeria and Venezuela are huge oil producers with much larger populations. Nigeria is unstable and undergoing a quasi civil war in their oil producing region where the population lives in grinding poverty, their prices are low to try to placate the population. In Venezuela, the price is subsidized so the majority of the population can afford to buy the gas from the oil they produce.

[hit_ny]

Probable source for the prices quoted above, as of Mar 2005(!)

Kuwait has a small and relatively prosperous population, they are probably paying production price.

They are small but they put out 2.5 million barrels/day, and plan to dbl that in a decade.

small population + BIG supply.

I'll accept your point on Nigeria & Venezuela being the cheapest.

[jgreen]

Okay, don't buy gas May 15th.  Are we allowed to play DRM-encoded songs that day, or are we going to hit 'em with a double whammy?

[SwellGuy]

Here's a better idea - only buy it from the stations selling it at the cheapest price.

Find that here: http://www.gasbuddy.com

[glynor]

Yeah.... I'd really prefer that gas prices go up in this country, not down.  That's the only way we'll get people to actually change their behavior.  If only the increased prices would get us something real in return.  In most European countries, the higher prices are due to (a) increased per-liter supply costs due mostly to lower demand and (b) higher taxes.  I'm not a big fan of taxes, but this is one place where I could see it helping matters.

As it is, those higher prices are just going into Exxon Mobile's pockets.

Hybrids are nice if you live in an urban area where much of your driving is stop-and-go.  However, if you live in a rural area (like I do) and you want to save fuel, a much better alternative may be the new generations of diesels or actually a motorcycle (or just carpool).  I, personally, try to carpool as much as possible.  It's slightly less convenient (choose your participants well), but the money savings for my daily 40-mile commute have been significant!

[Mr ChriZ]

Hybrids are nice if you live in an urban area where much of your driving is stop-and-go.  However, if you live in a rural area (like I do) and you want to save fuel, a much better alternative may be the new generations of diesels or actually a motorcycle (or just carpool).  I, personally, try to carpool as much as possible.  It's slightly less convenient (choose your participants well), but the money savings for my daily 40-mile commute have been significant!

The new diesels are really quite impressive.  I drive one thats about 7 years old
, Turbo Diesel Injection, and it's not bad a bit slow to take off but then oodles of power,
 and it does around 41MPG (American) (50 UK)

We've also got a newer ford fiesta here thats about 2 years old (TDIC).  Does about 49US (60UK),
and really rockets off the line, although a little slower once you get over 70MPH.

I can testify that both will go up to 100MPH (On my private run way), and cruise around 90 fairly easy.
The amount of miles we do, and cost of fuel over here, diesels the only option now.

[benn600]

Okay, don't buy gas May 15th.  Are we allowed to play DRM-encoded songs that day, or are we going to hit 'em with a double whammy?

VERY good point...I had to laugh.

I'm not really that concerned with gas prices.  Big deal, I pay an extra $20-$40 a month.  I can deal with it.  I'll just cut back a little on my entertainment or savings.

[jgreen]

That's it in a nutshell, Boy Wonder.  Energy prices must still be (relatively) cheap, or we'd all start changing our behavior in meaningful ways. 

While it's irksome to watch the pump price of gas basically double, and people are up in arms about "excess Oil Company profits", far fewer people are outraged that the price of their own home has also doubled, and they have an extra $500,000 to play with.   

[GHammer]

Did your property tax double too?

I am looking out my window right now at about 90,000 sq meters of new construction. That is just within easy view. If I drive across town, there is project after project going up. This happens in every town (1 million or so) and city within a day's drive of here, and I'd guess all along the central and eastern portion of China.

Last year, it would cost around 3,500 per sq meter to buy an average flat near where I live. This year somewhere north of 6,000. The stock market here went up about 130% last year and is up about 50% so far this year.

Back to the topic. All these flats will have A/C units. There is no ban here on CFCs (bans are for 'developed' countries) and the old coolant is cheaper so that is what is used. Most are poorly built and leak. When the 'repairman' comes, they will vent the remaining stuff into the air then fill it again. All the new places and the appliances/TVs/etc take energy. Most everything is concrete, no insulation, so uses a lot to stay cool/warm. A new coal fired power plant opens every week here. Every week! Nukes and hydro too, but coal is #1 with a bullet.

China is now the 2nd largest auto market in the world. Major manufacturers come here to unveil new vehicles, just saw some cool stuff at the Shanghai Autoshow. There are QQs (tiny little cars), but most here drive Buicks or VWs. I see more BMWs, Benz, Hummers, Cayennes, and Land Rovers here than when I lived in Dallas, TX. Almost got run down by a Ferrari zooming down the street the other day while walking to a restaurant.

China is NOT going green. We're living the 'American Dream' and are quite fond of vehicles, large powerful vehicles. Status is much bigger here than you can imagine. Guangzhou banned electric bike and motorcycles this year. Ha! Gotta make room for cars don't you know. Other cities are going to follow suit.

There has been a huge increase in demand for oil in the past 5 years, all of it from here. The demand curve here zooms upward with no sign of slowing, much less leveling off. India is just getting started down the same path. With 3 billion people all wanting a 'western' lifestyle, oil is not gonna get cheaper.

Finally, ever considered the hidden cost the US pays for a gallon of gas? The military doesn't come cheap and a whole lot of it is involved in protecting oil. Either directly (like Saudi Arabia) or indirectly by keeping shipping lanes open so those tankers can keep chugging along. Other countries benefit from this of course, but it is the US taxpayer who foots the bill. So, when you are playing the "Our price is much higher" game, add that price in too. Certainly do not forget the lives that are lost in doing this either. No country pays a higher price for energy than the US.

If for no other reason, folks in the good 'ol USA ought to park their cars, boats, and planes on the weekends and go for a walk.

[LonWar]

Today in Mississauga Ontario Canada
1.06L

=3.62usd/Gallon.

Even if the world stopped and didn't buy gas that day, everyone would either buy gas the day before, or the day after...  No impact.

[benn600]

That was already stated above.  I saw it as a way to see if one person (not me) who came up with the idea could spread the word to most people in 2 weeks.  It wasn't to HURT the oil companies but more so to just see if that message could be spread so quickly.

[hit_ny]

Finally, ever considered the hidden cost the US pays for a gallon of gas? The military doesn't come cheap and a whole lot of it is involved in protecting oil. Either directly (like Saudi Arabia) or indirectly by keeping shipping lanes open so those tankers can keep chugging along.

Umm yeah..cos Standard Oil owns all oil on tankers on the high seas. Those guys have got some serious pull in Capitol Hill.

Other countries benefit from this of course, but it is the US taxpayer who foots the bill. So, when you are playing the "Our price is much higher" game, add that price in too. Certainly do not forget the lives that are lost in doing this either. No country pays a higher price for energy than the US.

Care to put a figure on how much the US *gains* as a result of oil sales worldwide being sold in its own currency ?

Otherwise, you can cutback on the military and we will buy it in euros or (gasp) renmimbi.

[glynor]

@GHammer -

And, exactly what you described, is why I'm extremely pessimistic on humanity's ability to change course before the "tipping point" on environmental and climatic impact of our fossil fuel use (if, in fact, the tipping point hasn't already been reached and passed).  Both China and India are just now starting to become major emitters of CO² and other "greenhouse" gasses, and they're showing no signs of changing anytime soon.

Even the best estimates say that we need to reverse course, and start reducing our CO2 emissions within 10 years, before we will have crossed the threshold where major catastrophic climate change is inevitable (and most of these old estimates don't take into account the reversal of the global dimming effect we've been experiencing since the mid-80's, and could be off by an order of magnitude).  China and India both have no intention of seriously reducing their current emissions within 10 years, even if the US does.  By next year, the US will no longer be the #1 greenhouse gas emitter in the world, having been usurped by China (and that's assuming that the figures China's government provides are accurate -- they aren't -- so they've probably already surpassed us).  Even if the US brought their emissions to zero within the next ten years, I don't think the course would substantially change.

I suspect that 20-30 years from now, people will look back at the past few decades and the arguments and waffling over "global warming" much like we look back on arguments from the American Tobacco Institute from the 60's and 70's.  I think there'll likely be hell to pay when the people being born now realize what has happened during their childhood.  I also suspect that they'd look back at this decade and realize that it was already too late.  We're quickly approaching 400ppm CO2 levels in the atmosphere.  We know what these gasses do, what their properties are, and what has happened in the past when Methane and CO2 levels were at around 400 ppm...

About all I can say is to quote Maynard...

One great big festering neon distraction
I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied

Learn to swim.

[hit_ny]

China and India both have no intention of seriously reducing their current emissions within 10 years, even if the US does. 

How to counter their arguments that the developed world was polluting long before these countries even started ?..and only recently (last 10-20 yrs) started to think about it.

Agreed on the lost cause bit.

[KingSparta]

I rented a Honda Civic hybrid on a trip recently.  Gets 45MPG.  It was a great car, very smooth, no difference between it and a "normal" car except that the engine would sometimes quit when I stopped at a light.  As soon as I took my foot off the brake, it started again -- all very smoothly done.

I have been thinking about Getting A Honda Or Toyota Hybrid Car (when ever that may be) My Car is 11 Years Old. A Friend Of Mine Who Worked With Me Once Is The Sales manager For Toyota And Keeps Bugging Me (Sort Of). It Works Fine No Sense buying A New Car Mine Looks New And I take Very Good Care Of It.

[benn600]

I almost want some big climate change (not gigantic) but just something to show that global warming either IS or isn't occurring.  There is still a lot of controversy and I don't know how any average person could form an opinion without a lot of research and maybe even some experimentation.  It would just be nice to know if it really is an issue.  I am indifferent in my opinion because I know people strongly supporting both sides.

[GHammer]

Umm yeah..cos Standard Oil owns all oil on tankers on the high seas. Those guys have got some serious pull in Capitol Hill.
Care to put a figure on how much the US *gains* as a result of oil sales worldwide being sold in its own currency ?

Otherwise, you can cutback on the military and we will buy it in euros or (gasp) renmimbi.

Got a point? Or just blissful?

When Iran last threatened to close the gulf to shipping, who kept it open? The US. Minesweepers, re-flagged tankers, etc.
The same nice folks have mentioned they will close the gulf to shipping over their nuke program.

I've read how well 'the rest of the world' does in peace keeping from Bosnia to Afghanistan to Darfur (surprisingly, due to oil). I'd think you'd be in for a rude shock if the US didn't keep the oil flowing.

But, I'm certain that if the US simply walked off the world stage everything would be better. Perhaps they should. Good experiment.

As for the US 'gaining' because they print the money things are traded in, how so? Seems the mighty dollar is way down in value. I'd think that would make oil less in Euro terms. Used to get 1 dollar for 1 Euro, now I get 1.5 dollars for 1 Euro. My price just went down if I'm paid in Euros.

I'll happily take a stab at the 'gain' on currency values if you'll kindly put a figure on the lives of the US military members.

[hit_ny]

Well i would have thought the point was clear, given that no other country can print money to the same extent and run up deficits in the trillions accumulated over decades. Why does China offer to buy US debt ? Simple, the US always was and continues to be a good risk.

The dollar & the US economy fluctuates like it always has. I don't think this time is any different. What helps the US bounce back every time, oil sold in dollars.

Its more complex now, other developed economies are also quite mature, so a boom somewhere eventually spreads elsewhere, things are more interconnected.  But the importance of Oil sold in dollars is still quite tangible and therefore significant to national security.

At the end of the last great war, if peace was to continue, the most important commodity ever would have to be protected. Who's doing the protecting ?, maybe if they were big & powerful enough, a lot of useless wars might not even start.

Which then leads to, would it not be safer and easier to trade oil in their currency ?

So after some time, that old and irrelevant gold standard is replaced with dollars instead (in the early 70s). This point i'd say marks the beginning of sorts for globocop. Think about that, since when has a country's currency been as trusted outside its own borders, for as long, without having to necessarily occupy everyone that trusts it. Taken to the extreme you get Iraq (an aberration).

Oil makes policy(where applicable), the military enforces it .

I'd think you'd be in for a rude shock if the US didn't keep the oil flowing.

Well then oil won't be sold in dollars anymore and i say that would be unacceptable on Capitol Hill, not to mention national reserves of several countries.

The dollar became what it is because of the guns that protect it. The US might get a lot of flack over its current policy, but the dollar is still liked & *most importantly* trusted. Yeah its taking a beating now, but there is also lots of hoarding going on abroad. Why not, lets profit by helping the dollar appreciate, it has to sometime..

Yeah it would cause a slump but the US would be the biggest loser in this aspect, since it has gained the most in the last 50 years. You'd be taking away the second most important contributor to American greatness in recent history.

No, Enlightened self interest is what makes the world go round.

When Iran last threatened to close the gulf to shipping, who kept it open? The US. Minesweepers, re-flagged tankers, etc.
The same nice folks have mentioned they will close the gulf to shipping over their nuke program.

Right, so its quite clear, that they must not be allowed to do this. Having forces on two sides of their borders helps things. Like the wonderful game of GO, strategically, you'd have the advantage at this point. Not to mention the gulf emirates across the gulf, who of late have also developed a newly found ironic interest in nuclear energy. Iran would be taking on the world, at some point, and they won't take it that far, they are not that dumb.

I think they are just pulling a Kim Jong-Il. He's been quite quiet of late..i wonder why

[Mr ChriZ]

I almost want some big climate change (not gigantic) but just something to show that global warming either IS or isn't occurring.  There is still a lot of controversy and I don't know how any average person could form an opinion without a lot of research and maybe even some experimentation.  It would just be nice to know if it really is an issue.  I am indifferent in my opinion because I know people strongly supporting both sides.

I think you'll find there doesn't need to be a big change, for things to start going quite wrong.  Currently if you
believe what they say the signs are all around you, whether it's Catrina, the fact that the polar caps
are currently down to 2/3's their size of 25 years ago,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/6610125.stm
or just that marjeries dafodils came up over a month earlier than usual.

My thoughts go along the lines of theres definitley more scientists on the side of Climate Change is happening,
 than on the side that says it isn't.  Plenty of independent reports recently that back everything they're saying up.

We pay these scientists a hell of a lot of money to come up with these theories.  Sometimes they're wrong, or otherwise motivated.
Could cause rises in taxes, but hey our moneys gonna get eaten  up by taxes one way or another, so
whats the difference.

My theory is though... I'm young enough that if they're right it could majorly effect the latter
part of my life, and mean my children will be lucky to get a life.
I think we're better off safe than sorry on this one.
Certainly worth changing your light bulbs for.

Failing that I might start building an Ark.
Chris (Part Time Eco Warriror)

[glynor]

My thoughts go along the lines of theres definitley more scientists on the side of Climate Change is happening,
 than on the side that says it isn't.  Plenty of independent reports recently that back everything they're saying up.

We pay these scientists a hell of a lot of money to come up with these theories.  Sometimes they're wrong, or otherwise motivated.
Could cause rises in taxes, but hey our moneys gonna get eaten  up by taxes one way or another, so
whats the difference.

There no longer are any credible scientists specializing in climatology who don't believe that the increase in global average temperatures we've been experiencing are at least partly due to human activity.  The few who don't believe it are either: (a) oil company shills, or (b) extreme fringe "scientists" with questionable credentials (generally with religious motives).  The numbers of scientists who now don't believe that human activity has had a major impact are now similar to the numbers of biologists who don't believe in evolution.  Sure, there are a few who have ulterior motives, but the bulk of the scientific community is united.

It doesn't take much research at all to understand.  Simply read the synopses of the recent UN reports, for example.  Or, if that's too much reading... Look at the CO2 saturation charts over the past 400,000 years taken from ice core samples, and then look at the direct correlation between global temperature and CO2 levels.  We can see that global temperature has responded directly to fluctuations in CO2 and methane concentration levels in the atmosphere over the last 400,000+ years, and we can see that our current CO2 saturation levels (creeping up on 400ppm) are unprecedented in the same timeframe.

[KingSparta]

Many People Say Lets Use The US Oil Reserves.

That To Me Seems A Bit Ignorant.

I Say Let's Use Everyone Else's Oil No Matter The Cost.

When All The Oil Is Gone All Of The Other Countries Will Be Burring Candles And We Can Then Collapse The Rest Of The Earth's Crust, Sucking Out The Last Remaining Oil Like A Pouch Of Caprisun Orange Juice.

Besides With All Of The Global Warming And The Thawing Of The Arctic Caps And Glaciers, Many Of The Coastal Land Masses Will Be Under Water. If We Use All The Oil We Can Replace The Oil With Ocean Water And Keep The Flooding to A Minimum And Maintain The Roundish Shape Of The Earth.

[glynor]

That's fantastic, King.  What a piece of imagery!   

[Mastiff]

biologists who don't believe in evolution

Only in America... (and perhaps Iran?)

[glynor]

Gallup has been asking Americans about their belief in evolution in polls conducted consistently over the past 25 years (actually longer, but this page only has data back till then). 

Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings? (1) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process. (2) Human beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God had no part in this process. (3) God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so.

The results have not changed substantially in all that time.  Roughly 46% of Americans polled choose option number 3, completely rejecting evolution.  It's baffling to me.  Now, you can't just assume all those people (roughly 184 million people) are just completely uneducated.  The only thing I can imagine is that educated people who still believe in option #3, must either (a) think there is a massive scientific conspiracy to deceive the public about archaeological and biological discoveries, or (b) that God was actively trying to trick us into believing in evolution (you know, setting it up when he created the world so there would be dinosaur bones and other evolutionary evidence "planted" so that they would give "false" carbon dates and whatnot).  How else do you explain it?  I mean... There's more hard evidence for evolutionary theory than there is for general relativity (in other words -- gravity).

[JimH]

... It's baffling to me.  ... How else do you explain it? 

They're afraid they might be struck by a random lightning bolt.