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[Osho]

Hi,

I would like to request a feature that will be useful for navigation of large lists in theater view using remote control. It would be great if one can use the number keys 0-9 to directly jump to the ascii character similar to the ascii input used in cell phones for instant messaging. I find this feature very useful in my cellphone phonebook where I have more than 60 entries - for example, I can jump to Steve with just a couple of clicks rather than many down keys. Being able to navigate in theater view lists will make it much easier to use.

thanks,
Osho

[Matt]

Good idea.

But then how do I jump to artists that start with '5'?  I must do this 20 times a day. (kidding)

[ThoBar]

If Matt isnt enough of a vote... I second (or is it third in this case?) this proposal!

C.
(your serial seconder)

[MrHaugen]

I'm running out of good ideas my self lately. So the only thing I can do is to support others great ideas. I know this number key navigation have been mentioned before. Would be sweet if it's implemented soon. I've been waiting.

The question of special language character (like æ,ø,å to take norwegian as an example) comes into place here as well. Have been discussed regarding sorting order before. Not exactly how this problem would be solved. A selection of wich language characters to be used with the number keys maby? Just a thought.

- Carl

[Matt]

This will be in the next public build.

1: top of list
2...9: phone alphabet (tapping a number rolls through the letters associated with that key)
0: end of list

Thanks for the idea.

[Osho]

This will be in the next public build.

1: top of list
2...9: phone alphabet (tapping a number rolls through the letters associated with that key)
0: end of list

Thanks for the idea.

Excellent! Wow, this was really quick. I can't believe it. Looking forward to it.

Osho

[ThoBar]

Do a little dance....

[Uwe]

How to find my favorit 22-pistepirkko ? 

Uwe

[mhakman]

2 is one of the letters you get by tapping key 2 (a number of times).

[MrHaugen]

This will be in the next public build.

1: top of list
2...9: phone alphabet (tapping a number rolls through the letters associated with that key)
0: end of list

Thanks for the idea.

Super sweet! But what exactly do you mean? There will only be possible to scroll through the first letter?
I really hope not. And what does it search in? The complete output of TV string, or only one predefined library field?

[glynor]

Can I just say how insanely fantastical of an idea this was!?  I hadn't been following this thread for some reason, but... Long ago, I'd thought about trying to set up the number keys on my remote to work like this via Girder (which would require scripting to accomplish I discovered), but mainly for this reason.

This is perfect!  (...Well, it will be when they add in the numbers to the letter keys, as is, you can do A-B-C but not 2-A-B-C.)

[jmone]

Can I just say how insanely fantastical of an idea this was!?  I hadn't been following this thread for some reason, but... Long ago, I'd thought about trying to set up the number keys on my remote to work like this via Girder (which would require scripting to accomplish I discovered), but mainly for this reason.

This is perfect!  (...Well, it will be when they add in the numbers to the letter keys, as is, you can do A-B-C but not 2-A-B-C.)

I Vote for the 2-A-B-C over the A-B-C as well!

[mhakman]

2-A-B-C for me too please

[cncb]

A-B-C-2 makes the most sense to me since it would be rare to search for the number.

[MrHaugen]

You beat me to it cncb. Letters are used much more. And as A-B-C-2 are the default on telephones, I think more people would find it more intuitive.

[Osho]

You beat me to it cncb. Letters are used much more. And as A-B-C-2 are the default on telephones, I think more people would find it more intuitive.

Yeap, my cellphone does a-b-c-A-B-C-2. Needless to say, we don't need to distinguish case for list browsing. So, I would also vote for A-B-C-2.

thanks,
Osho

[glynor]

A-B-C-2 makes the most sense to me since it would be rare to search for the number.

Hmmm... That's a good plan, but 2 sorts before A alphabetically so it might be a bit odd.  I'd deal with whichever though!

(Honestly, I don't have that many files starting with numbers, but it might be useful to jump to a certain season in a long list of TV show episodes.)

[mhakman]

I can setup my phone in both 2-A-B-C and A-B-C-2 way so I could deal with both. How about the following behavior? When you press 2-button for the first time, MC finds the first item starting with 2 if there is one otherwise it finds first item starting with A if there is one otherwise first item starting with B if there is one etc. Next press finds the first item starting with A or B or C depending on what the first press found etc.

[MrHaugen]

I can setup my phone in both 2-A-B-C and A-B-C-2 way so I could deal with both. How about the following behavior? When you press 2-button for the first time, MC finds the first item starting with 2 if there is one otherwise it finds first item starting with A if there is one otherwise first item starting with B if there is one etc. Next press finds the first item starting with A or B or C depending on what the first press found etc.

I had to read that one 5 times to get it. Could use a bit more punctuation. Hehe.
My opinion is that this would confuse most users. Not many users of MC have small enough collections to this effect to trigger more than once in a while, and when it actually does you would probably say something like: "what the heck!?".
Most devices and apps I have used do not return any result if the number/letter you hit is not available. People is so used to the mobile phone sms writing. So why change it?

[glynor]

My opinion is that this would confuse most users.

I agree.  I'd say either add the 2 to the end of the chain or the beginning, or leave it out altogether.

[MrHaugen]

This function do not work on the numbers on a normal keyboard?
I was trying to test it out there. But could not make it work. Is there a reason for this?
Thought the numbers on a keyboard would be the same as numbers on a remote.

- Carl

[maxxsid]

Last time I tried it worked with the numbers right below the F-keys but didn't work with the numbers on the numpad (no matter NumLock on or off)

This function do not work on the numbers on a normal keyboard?
I was trying to test it out there. But could not make it work. Is there a reason for this?
Thought the numbers on a keyboard would be the same as numbers on a remote.

- Carl

[mhakman]

JR (or should I say MC) seems to have difficulties in deciding whether to treat a remote control as a keyboard input (using Girder or alike) or as an input device with its own rights, not simulating the keyboard at all. The difference is that while a key on a keyboard (or simulated keyboard) is going to an application currently having keyboard focus (which may or may not be MC in that moment), a key from remote may go to whatever application you want it to go to. Furthermore, properly implemented remote control support would not need Girder (no pun intended)  at all.

An example: Volume up and down should adjust the volume whether MC is in focus or not. On the other hand “play next” should go to the currently playing application, whatever that may be and is playing.

Absence of any documentation on how to write a remote control plug-in only straightens this feeling of JR uncertainty in this matter.

Concerning current Theatre View, touch screen paradigm is fine, JR. We understand you have a number of customers needing it. But the rest of us need IR remote, without the keyboard, without the mouse, from 4 -5 meters distance on a big screen.

Sorry guys, things like this has to be said sometimes.

[Matt]

But the rest of us need IR remote, without the keyboard, without the mouse, from 4 -5 meters distance on a big screen.

I don't understand the rant.  I use Theater View exclusively with an IR remote.  I don't use Girder.  MC has remote control support built-in.  It even supports a lot of Girder plugins.

Other remotes (MCE, ATI, etc.) act like a keyboard so work without a plug-in.

[Matt]

This function do not work on the numbers on a normal keyboard?
I was trying to test it out there. But could not make it work. Is there a reason for this?
Thought the numbers on a keyboard would be the same as numbers on a remote.

- Carl

Use the numbers above the letters.  They'll work.

It's possible the number-pad keys aren't hooked up, which is only an oversight.

[maxxsid]

Hi Matt,
I had no idea about this.. How? Where to plug?

It even supports a lot of Girder plugins.

[mhakman]

I use Theater View exclusively with an IR remote.  I don't use Girder.  MC has remote control support built-in.  It even supports a lot of Girder plugins.

Other remotes (MCE, ATI, etc.) act like a keyboard so work without a plug-in.

Theater View as it is now is so different from all other appliances in my living room that it isn’t useable. It is simply too much! Let me repeat it once more:

1.   Get rid of the menu on the left.
2.   Remote control has 4 direction buttons, 1 OK button and 1 Menu/exit button. It may have more buttons but these 6 should be sufficient to operate.
3.   Up/down moves through the list. First item on every list is “Play All”.
4.   For music (audio) there are entries via Artists, Albums and Tracks at the top Audio level. Figure out corresponding for the other media.
5.   OK button drills down or plays the selected item if at the bottom of hierarchy. “Play All” is always at the bottom in this respect.  If anything is already playing, OK button queues selected items for playing.
6.   Menu/exit button moves up one level without interrupting playback.
7.   Left/right decrease/increase the volume.
8.   Top of the screen shows where you are in browsing.
9.   Bottom of screen shows what is playing now.
10.   There is “playing now” screen – you get there when starting to play with OK button or selecting “playing now” item on screen.

Implement this base, and then implement more buttons/functions as needed.

No, MCE remote does not act as keyboard. Some buttons on it do. Other buttons don’t. Apple remote does not act as a keyboard. MC built-in remote control plug-in supports remote controls that were used in the previous century. Girder is ok when you need it. I use AHK in those cases. There shouldn’t be need for using any.

Theatre View in MC as it is now forces me to use Apple’s Front Row in my living room which means that I have to maintain a copy of my library in ALAC because Apple doesn’t support FLAC. I would be glad to use MC in my living room but I can’t until Theater View (or a new view) starts to behave as other appliances in my living room do.

[Osho]

Theater View as it is now is so different from all other appliances in my living room that it isn’t useable. It is simply too much! Let me repeat it once more:

I think there is a lot of scope for improvement in Theater View. I have been asking/bugging/begging for many feature improvements - including this one about navigation with 0-9 number keys. But it is definitely not too much and definitely usable by novice users. Your comments are way too harsh, IMHO.

1.   Get rid of the menu on the left.

Why? It being there doesn't necessarily hurt and it provides useful functionality (like changing views, search etc.).

2.   Remote control has 4 direction buttons, 1 OK button and 1 Menu/exit button. It may have more buttons but these 6 should be sufficient to operate.

Actually, a lot of changes that went into the latest build 251 were designed so one can use theater view with only 5 buttons - 4 direction buttons and center OK button. I think it is usable with exactly those 5 buttons.

3.   Up/down moves through the list. First item on every list is “Play All”.

Up/down already moves through the list. First item on every lowest level menu is Play All - which is the right place.

4.   For music (audio) there are entries via Artists, Albums and Tracks at the top Audio level. Figure out corresponding for the other media.

There are already decent default hierarchy selected for Images/Video. You can always change it to your liking if you don't like the default.

5.   OK button drills down or plays the selected item if at the bottom of hierarchy. “Play All” is always at the bottom in this respect.  If anything is already playing, OK button queues selected items for playing.

I think this is already being done except for the part where OK button queues selected items for playing if something is already being. It is debatable whether this is desired to do or not. In any case, you can click OK button, go down one and select Add to Add to the queue.

6.   Menu/exit button moves up one level without interrupting playback.

This is already working as you said.

7.   Left/right decrease/increase the volume.

Ahh.. no. Left/right navigates. Volume up/down button on my remote increases/decreases volume as expected.

8.   Top of the screen shows where you are in browsing.

It already does this.

9.   Bottom of screen shows what is playing now.

Not sure if this is a good idea. Maybe the lower left area that is unused shows what is being played. Botton of the screen at the lowest level shows information about the file - which I think is a good idea.

10.   There is “playing now” screen – you get there when starting to play with OK button or selecting “playing now” item on screen.

This is already possible. Check in theater view options as to where you want to go upon playing.

Implement this base, and then implement more buttons/functions as needed.

I think you probably haven't tried theater view thoroughly or in a while. It has improved a lot and I think it already implements 80% of the things you asked for. There are still a lot of things that could be improved (some of which you mentioned) but it is nowhere as bad as what you seem to think.

No, MCE remote does not act as keyboard. Some buttons on it do. Other buttons don’t. Apple remote does not act as a keyboard. MC built-in remote control plug-in supports remote controls that were used in the previous century. Girder is ok when you need it. I use AHK in those cases. There shouldn’t be need for using any.

MC built-in remote control supports USBUIRT. I am using it now. I know a lot of other people use it too. I have used ATI remote with it in the past (which acts as a keyboard) and it works just as well too. How does it matter if it acts as keyboard or otherwise as long as it is working?

Theatre View in MC as it is now forces me to use Apple’s Front Row in my living room which means that I have to maintain a copy of my library in ALAC because Apple doesn’t support FLAC. I would be glad to use MC in my living room but I can’t until Theater View (or a new view) starts to behave as other appliances in my living room do.

I would never use Front Row or other HTPC media software front end simply because they won't support all the data types I want them to - FLAC, ripped DVDs in VIDEO_TS folder, .iso files - these are the three format that only MC12 supports well.

Osho

[mhakman]

Osho, the problem with your way of augmenting is that while I don’t try to force you to use my way of having it, you are trying to get me into your way. I’m not saying that the current Theatre View should go away, I’m saying that we need another, simpler, and in some respects more informative view in addition to current one. If you are satisfied with TV as it is now then nobody is trying to take it from you, please be happy. But why do you object so much when I try to get what I think will make me happy?

It’s all in the details. In your writing, you can do most of what I request but in practice I need something else than current TV is. In practice, Front Row, Apple TV device, Apple iPhone, and Microsoft MCE are much better suited for simple everyday use in a living room and they are much easier for occasional use and users who are more interested in content of the media than in content of the UI. Yes, not everything is perfect in Front Row, limited media format support is one, limited information on where you are in browsing is another. This is why I’m asking JR to do better. Do a little better Front Row please. Now, you don’t have to agree with me, you may keep your current TV that you love so much. But why do you try to hinder me to get what I would love to have?

1.   The menu on the left confuses me and all people I know. We don’t need it, it only takes valuable screen real estate, and so why have it at all? Again, you may keep it in your TV. The whole idea of having 2 parts on the screen, changing focus from one to the second and getting different things from the same button depending on where you are is wrong in my living room. The whole screen has the focus, if you can talk about focus at all in these circumstances.
2.   No, you cannot easily drive current TV with 6 IR buttons. I’m talking about occasional user that shouldn’t need any explanation whatsoever. Hey it’s party time!
3.   Sure, up/down moves through the list, the wrong one, that one (the menu) on the left.
4.   I did try to redesign the view tree to get it right (IMHO right) in TV view – no way. However I do there are either some unwanted items on some list or there is no information about item(s) that I need. Genre-Artist-Album-Track.
5.   Ok-button opens a popup menu for me. No popup menus in my living room please.
6.   Except that it doesn’t do that in Playing Now or Display View. How do you go back to browsing?
7.   No, a list is browsed by up/down. Left/right adjust volume. This is how the other appliances behave in my living room. The point is not being smart; the point is being consistent with the rest of the world. It is the consistency across the whole line, all devices in my room, which makes things easy to use. Then you may have separate +/- volume buttons too and configure left/right to do something else, of course.
8.   Except when you configured tree view so that the first list on Audio menu consists of Genre-Artist-Album-Track entries. For a track from track-entry you only see it name, no genre, no artist, and no album. 
9.   I’m sure it is good idea for me and my likes. As I said before, you may keep your view; nobody is taking it from you. Just don’t hinder me in my view.

Once more, it’s all in the details. Every detail wrong or missing is not much by itself. Together they render the thing unusable, at least in my living room.

The 2 most used IR remotes in the world are MCE and Apple, not USBUIRT (no pun intended).

I would never use Front Row or other HTPC media software front end simply because they won't support all the data types I want them to - FLAC, ripped DVDs in VIDEO_TS folder, .iso files - these are the three format that only MC12 supports well.

Well, that’s your opinion which obviously builds upon not complete information being available to you. There is a lot of software that supports more data types than MC. The strength of MC is its extremely functional support for handling and managing large collections of media, together with quite good data type/format support and its automation interface. I do enjoy MC in normal mode very much – I think it is the best you can get when in this mode. This is the reason why I do and will continue to use it. But its current TV view, using your own words, ahh…no.

In normal mode, people at JR really do understand what is needed, better than both Apple and Microsoft do. However in TV mode perhaps they could benefit by studying what these 2 usability experts have to say.  The fact that you are better than others in one respect doesn’t make you best in the other areas. There is always something more to learn, IMHO.

Regards/Mikael

[glynor]

Now, you don’t have to agree with me, you may keep your current TV that you love so much. But why do you try to hinder me to get what I would love to have?

Unfortunately, this is typically not the case.  Usually tradeoffs have to be made.  Sometimes you have to accept things that aren't perfectly to your liking in order to satisfy other users.

Let me preface by saying, I don't work for them, but I would bet that... If you were willing to give JRiver huge amounts of cash to fund the entire development of your own version of MC the answer would (likely) be different.  However, many of the things you're asking for would negatively impact the use of many of the other paying users of the software if they were blindly followed.  Everything is the art of compromise.

So... If you can find a large contingent of JRiver's users who feel the same as you do, you might get some results.  I for one do not agree on many of your points (like Osho).  And it really seems that some of your points are simply because you aren't familiar with how to fully utilize the options and features that MC provides.  Sometimes, learning how to use a piece of software is actually a prerequisite to actually using it.

For example...

1.   The menu on the left confuses me and all people I know. We don’t need it, it only takes valuable screen real estate, and so why have it at all? Again, you may keep it in your TV. The whole idea of having 2 parts on the screen, changing focus from one to the second and getting different things from the same button depending on where you are is wrong in my living room. The whole screen has the focus, if you can talk about focus at all in these circumstances.

I disagree fully and would be very unhappy if the left menu were removed.  I use it every time I use theater View.  It is essential for me.

3.   Sure, up/down moves through the list, the wrong one, that one (the menu) on the left.

No.  It really does.  Hit the right arrow once if it's moving up and down the menu on the left.  It doesn't seem to hard for me to have to switch from the menu over to the list on the right by using the right arrow key.

I have plenty of novice users at my house all the time, and they've never complained or gotten stuck on this issue.

4.   I did try to redesign the view tree to get it right (IMHO right) in TV view – no way. However I do there are either some unwanted items on some list or there is no information about item(s) that I need. Genre-Artist-Album-Track.

This is really mind-numbingly simple to accomplish.

1) Open Audio in Theater View
2) In the (useful) menu on the left choose Views.
3) Pick Genre/Artist/Album from the dialog window that appears
4) Hit OK or Enter.
5) Enjoy.  MC will remember this selection from then on unless you change it again.

5.   Ok-button opens a popup menu for me. No popup menus in my living room please.

This has gone back and forth.  It pops up a menu for a good reason.  It's because they were trying to design in all the other functionality while still allowing you to use Theater View with only 4 arrow keys and an Enter key.  As is, it works.  Without showing the menu, it requires that you have a remote with a specific Menu button.  You might, but lots of other people don't.

If you want to open any "selection" (drill down into a Genre or Album for example) on screen you can use the Right Arrow key and it will open it without showing a menu.  You can go back with the Left Arrow key.

6.   Except that it doesn’t do that in Playing Now or Display View. How do you go back to browsing?

Use the Left Arrow key or navigate to the (useful) menu and choose Back.  I, personally, like that Exit exit's Theater View.  Many users don't use Theater View exclusively, even on their TVs.  Perhaps you aren't aware... If you arrow "Left" from any of the buttons on the left edge of Theater View (so, from the Menu that you don't like) it will drill "up" back to the previous screen.  Likewise, if you arrow "right" when you are all the way on the right it will drill "down" into the next screen (except for when you are viewing in Thumbnail mode).

7.   No, a list is browsed by up/down. Left/right adjust volume. This is how the other appliances behave in my living room.

None of my appliances do that, and I have (and have used) quite a few.  Can you provide an example of a popular device that uses that control motif?

All I can say is that Left/Right already have a very important function.  If you want volume control either: a) use the buttons under Show Controls or B) buy a remote that has a volume button.

8.   Except when you configured tree view so that the first list on Audio menu consists of Genre-Artist-Album-Track entries. For a track from track-entry you only see it name, no genre, no artist, and no album.

This can be changed.  Go to Tools --> Options --> Theater View --> Advanced --> File Caption.  If you want them all to show the name and Album, you can put this in the box:

[Name] - [Album]

If you want Name - Artist - Album:

[Name] - [Artist] - [Album]

You can customize this however you'd like.

9.   I’m sure it is good idea for me and my likes. As I said before, you may keep your view; nobody is taking it from you. Just don’t hinder me in my view.

Unfortunately, again, this isn't how life and software development works.  You expect JRiver to build a version of their software package just for you??  If so, I hope you have millions of dollars to spend on it.

Otherwise, if Theater View were changed in the ways you requested, there would be hordes of users here screaming that it was ruined!

Luckily, JRiver is one of the few companies out there who do actually listen to their users.  If you come here and express your views clearly and without anger, you'll often be able to sort out something that will work with the other users and with the developers.  Will you always get exactly what you dreamed for?  Of course not.  Compromise is everything.

The 2 most used IR remotes in the world are MCE and Apple, not USBUIRT (no pun intended).

What evidence do you have for this?  For an example, I'd say that it's fairly likely that ATI has sold way more remotes than there are remotes for Windows Media Center Edition.  They've been selling them and including them with their AIW video cards for years and years and years (I got one years ago with an old ATI video card).  Apple and Microsoft only recently started selling those remotes.  Do you have sales numbers or are you just making this up?

USB-UIRTs have been available for probably at least 10 years, sold by many companies (you can even build them yourself using off the shelf parts).

I would be frankly quite surprised if there were actually more Apple remotes in the world than there are USB-UIRT devices.

[maxxsid]

Thank you, Glynor!

[mhakman]

@Glynor

Unfortunately, this is typically not the case.  Usually tradeoffs have to be made...

What evidence do you have for that? We are NOT talking about changing current Theater View but about getting a new one in addition to, so what tradeoffs are you talking about? Except perhaps that it does require development resources but because it may result in increased sales then it is not a tradeoff at all. There are plenty of users that agree with me but not all of then take the time to write here.

If you were willing to give JRiver huge amounts of cash to fund the entire development of your own version of MC the answer would (likely) be different.

No my friend, I can write my own MC whenever I decide to do. I would do if I didn’t find at least one Theater View that satisfies my needs closely enough. I did, so the issue here is making MC better.

However, many of the things you're asking for would negatively impact the use of many of the other paying users of the software if they were blindly followed.  Everything is the art of compromise.

And the proof of your statement above is what? Again, adding a new view wouldn’t affect current users in any negative way. Those who don’t want to use it don’t need to. Compromises are often the worst possible solution. Nobody is then really happy. Besides, I don’t compromise on skiing when I want to bike.

So... If you can find a large contingent of JRiver's users who feel the same as you do, you might get some results...

I’m not here to hunt customers for JR, nor for making market analysis for them. I do such things but then I charge for it. The strange thing is that people like you and Osho, who obviously like things as they are now object strongly to having an option to do differently. What are you afraid of? That it may turn out as a better solution? No my friend, it’s about prestige.

I disagree fully and would be very unhappy if the left menu were removed.  I use it every time I use theater View.  It is essential for me.

With what do you disagree? That other people find this thing confusing? I tell you I do. I tell you my family and friends do. You cannot possibly disagree with that. You aren’t sitting in our minds.

No.  It really does.  Hit the right arrow once if it's moving up and down the menu on the left...

This is exactly what confuses people. You see the whole thing as a computer display. We see it as an appliance display. We neither want nor require this kind of complexity in our living rooms.

I have plenty of novice users at my house all the time, and they've never complained or gotten stuck on this issue.

And I have plenty of both novices and very experienced and technical minded users and also developers. Everybody complain.

This is really mind-numbingly simple to accomplish...

No, it doesn’t do we need. Look at www.dkab.net/Audiophile TV.doc. This is what is needed in terms of functionality, navigation, remote, and information. I’m sure JR can do much better graphics than I did there.

This has gone back and forth.  It pops up a menu for a good reason.  It's because they were trying to design in all the other functionality while still allowing you to use Theater View with only 4 arrow keys and an Enter key.  As is, it works.  Without showing the menu, it requires that you have a remote with a specific Menu button.  You might, but lots of other people don't...

We do not want all the functionality in our living rooms. We want simplicity. Therefore we do not want popup menus. Therefore we don’t want this moving focus 2-part screen with non-required menu. Every remote I know of has a button that is or can be used as Menu-button. But that button shouldn’t popup anything; it should move you to a menu on the previous or higher level.

Use the Left Arrow key or navigate to the (useful) menu and choose Back.  I, personally, like that Exit exit's Theater View.  Many users don't use Theater View exclusively, even on their TVs.  Perhaps you aren't aware... If you arrow "Left" from any of the buttons on the left edge of Theater View (so, from the Menu that you don't like) it will drill "up" back to the previous screen.  Likewise, if you arrow "right" when you are all the way on the right it will drill "down" into the next screen (except for when you are viewing in Thumbnail mode).

Obviously, you aren’t capable of leaving this keyboard metaphor and think in simpler, easier terms. Just read what you wrote: “Use Left Arrow key or NAVIGATE to the menu and choose Back”. This sounds like a piece of computer software manual. This is exactly what we don’t want in our living rooms. We get enough of that game in our professional lives, so to speak.

None of my appliances do that, and I have (and have used) quite a few.  Can you provide an example of a popular device that uses that control motif?...

All DVB appliances (very popular these days) I know of use left/right in this way. Many DVD players and recorders do it too.

This can be changed.  Go to Tools --> Options --> Theater View --> Advanced --> File Caption.  If you want them all to show the name and Album, you can put this in the box:...

No, no, please look at www.dkab.net/Audiophile TV.doc. When you can get TV (or another view) to behave like that, and to display that information, including that way of browsing through cover images, then I buy it. Until then, Front Row it is.

Unfortunately, again, this isn't how life and software development works.  You expect JRiver to build a version of their software package just for you??  If so, I hope you have millions of dollars to spend on it.

Otherwise, if Theater View were changed in the ways you requested, there would be hordes of users here screaming that it was ruined!...

I have been developing software for 30+ years. I know how it works and I know what kind of people are there. You are jumping into conclusions without a cause. What I do is to describe what I and my likes need. What JR does is up to them. What is difficult to understand, and still be polite, is why people like you object so much to those needs. How many times do I have to tell you; do not replace current Theater View. Add a new view. So what exactly would you miss then?

What evidence do you have for this?  For an example, I'd say that it's fairly likely that ATI has sold way more remotes than there are remotes for Windows Media Center Edition.  They've been selling them and including them with their AIW video cards for years and years and years (I got one years ago with an old ATI video card).  Apple and Microsoft only recently started selling those remotes.  Do you have sales numbers or are you just making this up?

USB-UIRTs have been available for probably at least 10 years, sold by many companies (you can even build them yourself using off the shelf parts)...

And the evidence of all that is what? Your feelings? Or the pure fact that this would be a good argument if it was true? Years ago, hm…, did we say remotes used in the previous century? Sorry ATI, I don’t want to hurt you, but if someone asks me for evidence then I expect him to present the same.

We all can talk and write Glynor but the difference between us is that while I talk about what I need, you talk about what I shouldn’t need, instead of talking about what you need.

Regards/Mikael

[JimH]

Mikael,
First of all, we welcome your thoughts.

Second, glynor can take care of himself, but part of the communication problem is language.

When you say things like:

How many times do I have to tell you...

we read this as

Are you stupid?

Idiomatic speach can be a problem.

BTW, your English is excellent.

[mhakman]

Thanks for your reply Jim.

First, let me respond by the following quote (and good music too):

“I’m just a soul whose intentions are good,
 Oh Lord, don’t let me be misunderstood.”

Then, if you write over and over again that you mean a new, separate option (view) that would not affect those who don’t want to use it, but they still and all the time interpret your writing as if you wanted to modify their beloved thing, then I do not know how to express this better than I did. The interpretation must then depend on how many times you actually told them. Don’t you think that there is a limit?

Regards/Mikael

[JimH]

Nice quote.  If we could do it, we'd provide everything that everyone wants.  But as glynor says, it's a compromise.

We had a big Theater View discussion a week or two ago.  Maybe it was on the beta board.

Hold on a minute.  I have to flip a switch.

[JimH]

Passion counts.  Thanks, Mikael.

[glynor]

Then, if you write over and over again that you mean a new, separate option (view) that would not affect those who don’t want to use it

I understood this perfectly.  My point was that I don't think this is a realistic request.  JRiver is not a big software company, and they have a limited amount of resources.  You said that it wouldn't affect me (or Osho) in a negative way.  But you're wrong.  It would.  Even if they did exactly as you asked and added a completely new view motif designed for a 12' display (which is exceedingly unlikely) that development effort would take away from the huge list of things that I have in mind that should be fixed.  They only have so many hands is the point.

I feel that the current implementation of Theater View by NO means perfect.  However, I don't think that means you should throw the baby out with the bath water.  I do feel that the current implementation is pretty good (as the beatles said, got to admit it's getting better... and we'll just ignore the "can't get no worse" part of that song), and that their resources can be better spent elsewhere.

I'm not, and Osho wasn't, saying that your ideas don't have merit.  We were saying that they aren't something that we personally think is worth it.  IMHO realistically JRiver is not going to add a whole new view or a whole bunch of options to the application to modify Theater View's behavior in the ways you suggested...  So, that leaves modifying the way it works as is.  And for that, yes, I do have opinions, and I don't agree with everything you said.  Just one small example...

But that button shouldn’t popup anything; it should move you to a menu on the previous or higher level.

I disagree fully.  That's a big part of the reason I never use DVDs.  I HATE the menu systems, and I find them horribly designed and impossible to navigate.

Different people can see things differently.  You may (and probably do it seems) like many different appliances than I do personally.  That doesn't make either of us wrong, it just makes us different!   

There are plenty of users that agree with me but not all of then take the time to write here.

Get them to take the time and you might get somewhere.  Until then... The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

I should also say...

We all can talk and write Glynor but the difference between us is that while I talk about what I need, you talk about what I shouldn’t need, instead of talking about what you need.

This, and the similar comments in your reply, were completely uncalled for.  That's a big part of why the responses you might get aren't "nice".  I was trying to politely and helpfully address some of the questions you raised, and explain why some of the things you were asking for would negatively impact other users.  But your response was to broadly categorize me and my words with no previous knowledge of who I am or what my motives might be.  I am a very active user here... Did you take the time to go back and read all of, or even a large portion of, my previous postings before you came to those conclusions?

You questioned my integrity and intelligence, and for no other reason than that I disagreed with you on some points.  When I disagree with someone, I try to discuss and debate the points with them.  Resorting to name-calling and broad generalizations is juvenile and counter-constructive.

I was not "telling you what you shouldn't need", I was trying to tell you how you could try to accomplish your goals with the product as is.  Since I have no way of modifying the product myself that's all I can do.

Respect is a two way street.

[JimH]

[Sound of thread closing....]

[JimH]

It's a new day.  Let's aim a little higher.

glynor was correct, in my opinion, that anger can sometimes prevent any attempt at understanding.

[mhakman]

Because the shop is open again…

You questioned my integrity and intelligence, and for no other reason than that I disagreed with you on some points.  When I disagree with someone, I try to discuss and debate the points with them.  Resorting to name-calling and broad generalizations is juvenile and counter-constructive.

I didn’t question your intelligence or your integrity. I did question your right to tell me what I feel and perceive, and whether things confuse me or not, for example, or whether things do and behave as I need them to or not. I also questioned your way of discussing when you require evidence and respect from me but you do not present any trace of such yourself. I question your attempt to talk to me from a kind of “power position”. I never allow people do that, I just pay back with the same money. I’m a peaceful man, I never start fighting, but I do have the power to fight back, and I do when provoked.

Respect is a two way street.

On that we agree.

Let's aim a little higher.

Yes, let me describe what I believe these 2 different views of what is an appropriate UI in a living room steam from.

Some of us want a HTPC in their living rooms. They try to do everything using that device, which includes using it as more or less normal computer, using MC not only as a simple media player but also for more advanced functions etc. Current MC Theater View targets this group of users, I think.

Then there is another group of users. We use the full and advanced functionality of MC (and more) but we do that at our desk (whether at work or at home), mainly for managing our collections of media. This is the very reason why we purchased MC in the first place and we are very happy with it (well, things could always improve even more). In our living rooms, for our own sake, our families, and our friends (think party time) we want something else. We want a computer-based media player (because large parts of out media are on disk) but that media player is only one of many devices in our living room (or studio, or party room). Therefore it has to work in a simple way consistent with the other devices. A remote control on the table beside the drinks, a media player UI on the big screen and 95 dB in the air – that’s what we like in this environment. No introduction should be required, especially not after 4 drinks. We would like to use MC TV view (or other view) in this environment – that would simplify a lot of things. My family, my friends, and I say no, we can’t in its current incarnation. We want cream with strawberries on top, not a toolbox, so to speak.

Cheers/Mikael

[glynor]

I didn’t question your intelligence or your integrity. I did question your right to tell me what I feel and perceive, and whether things confuse me or not, for example, or whether things do and behave as I need them to or not. I also questioned your way of discussing when you require evidence and respect from me but you do not present any trace of such yourself. I question your attempt to talk to me from a kind of “power position”.

That was certainly not my intent, and I apologize.  I think part of the disconnect comes from reading rather than hearing the conversation.  Tone can mean a lot.  I also think, as Jim pointed out, a big part of the misunderstanding (ours and the one with Osho) might have been "lost in translation" cultural issues.  For example, there is a huge difference in conversational American English between saying these two things:

1. But that button shouldn’t popup anything; it should move you to a menu on the previous or higher level.
2. It would be better if that button didn't popup anything, but instead moved you to a menu on the previous or higher level.

That's why English is hard to learn, honestly.  Because we don't have suffixes or sexed words or any of that, context is very important.  Example one has a "my way is the only way that is right, the existing way way is stupid" connotation.  Example two says the same thing, but means "I'd like it better if it were this way, explain to me why it wouldn't work well".  If we were talking in person, I could tell from your tone that you didn't mean it that way, and you could tell from mine that I wasn't trying to "hold you down" (as it were).  I wasn't trying to "talk from a power position" as you suggested (which is good because I have no power), I was reacting to what I perceived as aggressive overtones from you.  The cycle of aggression and all that...

For the evidence thing... That was done intentionally, to make a point.     I think you got the point.

Then there is another group of users. We use the full and advanced functionality of MC (and more) but we do that at our desk (whether at work or at home), mainly for managing our collections of media. This is the very reason why we purchased MC in the first place and we are very happy with it (well, things could always improve even more). In our living rooms, for our own sake, our families, and our friends (think party time) we want something else. We want a computer-based media player (because large parts of out media are on disk) but that media player is only one of many devices in our living room (or studio, or party room). Therefore it has to work in a simple way consistent with the other devices. A remote control on the table beside the drinks, a media player UI on the big screen and 95 dB in the air – that’s what we like in this environment. No introduction should be required, especially not after 4 drinks. We would like to use MC TV view (or other view) in this environment – that would simplify a lot of things. My family, my friends, and I say no, we can’t in its current incarnation. We want cream with strawberries on top, not a toolbox, so to speak.

The thing is... And this is where I got upset last night.  I fall squarely into "your" camp.  I am certainly NOT opposed to improvements in Theater View.  We, and our families, just don't completely agree on what those improvements should be.

You seemed to say that "you're not one of me so you're one of them" last night.  I'm saying, there is no us and them.  There just is different people with different views.  If you polled everyone using MC you'd probably get hundreds of different answers about how things "should" work.

The answer is to give the best tools possible that work for the most people possible, without breaking anything that is part of your stated design goals and without making the product "bloated" and "unwieldy".

That said...

Looks like I might have been wrong on the whole "unrealistic" thing, due to the artistry of the new skinning XML engine in Theater View.  Maybe you can have your cake and let me eat it too... 

[jmone]

Ahhh at the risk of being on topic in this thread,

my Vote for support of Numerals is that T'View will need to incude features such as TV Guides, Channels Tuning for external devices (eg via IR blastres etc) so as with all other CE devices, we are going to need to be able to tune to say channel "29" using our RC.

Nathan

[glynor]

my Vote for support of Numerals is that T'View will need to incude features such as TV Guides, Channels Tuning for external devices (eg via IR blastres etc) so as with all other CE devices, we are going to need to be able to tune to say channel "29" using our RC.

Good call.  I could also use it for TV shows, which I usually number with episode numbers anyway.

[mhakman]

Jmone, you are right, the topic of this thread is “Theater View navigation with 0-9 number keys”. What started as my contribution on remote keys and remotes, which still was on topic, has developed into a discussion on Theater View merits (or lack thereof), and recently into a discussion on semantics of English language. I apologize, that development was never my intention, at least not on this thread.

Maybe, it would be appropriate to move that general Theater View discussion onto another, new thread. I don’t know how to do it, maybe JimH could help here.

In the meantime I’ll continue here, because if and when JimH (or some other knowledgeable and powerful person) moves TV-discussion then the following will be (re)moved too.

On the linguistics:

When I’m on an international forum, which I assume this forum is, I read what other people say without any consideration of how they say it. I do this in order to equalize the effect of not all of us being native or good English-spoken people. We have agreed to use English so that we could communicate with each other but that doesn’t mean that the English-spoken natives could or should take an advantage of this, and/or master others. Every culture has its own idiosyncrasies, idioms and ways of expressing thoughts in writing and in common spoken language. Usually, but not always, the differences are greater between different language groups and languages than between different social or professional groups within the same language. Even within native English-spoken territories or cultural groups the differences may be quite large. Compare for instance Canadian and South African way of putting things, or Mexican descendant’s in the south to Swedish offspring’s in the north of US. When I write my research papers or other formal documents, which I often do in English because it is the language currently used in international communication, I do work hard in order to get it up to those standards. Such documents are also often reviewed by others before publication. When I write on forums like this, I feel free not to invest so very much time in the English language itself. One reason for this is that there are many other people here with even more difficulties in expressing themselves in English than I have. I do not complain but try to understand what they are saying instead. Take it or leave it.

On the Theater View:

I can understand that if somebody calls the thing you are used to and are using for a long time now for “wrong” or “weird”, then it can be a little difficult to digest. The first reaction is not coming from your rational brain but from a hundreds of thousands of years old defense reflex. This is natural human reaction, we all have it to larger or lesser extent, and the trick is not to give up for it but to start thinking.

Why do I write the above? Because…

If the very first reaction of experienced users (some very experienced) when exposed to a new UI designed to support relatively simple, well known and understood task, for which there are plenty of other software doing the same, is confusion, disorientation, and inability to perform the very basic function for which the UI is designed (which is selecting and playing a track in this case) then the question is not that the UI isn’t perfect yet, the question is not that things are on the right way, but the question is that the very fundamental design of the UI is wrong, not to say weird. This doesn’t mean the UI can’t be used at all. Given enough training it will become as natural as anything could be for the task, especially when it can’t be compared to other UIs doing the same thing. Well, in this case we can compare, we can do the assessment using experienced or novice users, not previously exposed to this type of UI at all. By observing my own reactions (I’m experienced by profession in assessing usability of UIs) and reactions of my environment, the answer is very clear to me.

On a higher, informal level the problem is what the users expect versus what they get or are required to do. Because a Media Player (which Theater View is an instance of) isn’t completely new software these days, the users usually have some expectations on how it should behave and what is required to control it. What they expect and get from many other players is a kind of simplified Explorer interface. Up/down browses through the list, Enter/OK drills down if on a folder and plays if on a track. In Theater View they get a menu on the left that they cannot relate to, then they have to keep track on which part of screen they “are” (menu or track list) etc, etc. There is simply an impedance mismatch between expectations and reality. In this respect, showing the users ordinary Windows Explorer with “Music” folder on top, then Genres, Artists, Albums folder tree and the Tracks at the bottom, and associating file extensions with any player software works better because they immediately recognize the view and understand what to do.

You may compare with gear control devices in automobiles. For manual devices, practically all consumer cars have an H-pattern. This is not the only one possible, perhaps even not the best in some respects, but nobody would dear to produce anything else because it wouldn’t be accepted. Perhaps a line-arrangement (R-N-1-2-3-4-5) would work better but cars aren’t produced in this way. If you know how to drive one car, you know how to drive all. A corresponding is true for automatic gear devices, which actually use this straight line pattern.

Because I’m a professional, scientist and engineer, I’m not satisfied with merely observing a problem, I seek a remedy. The very first step towards a solution is deeper understanding of the nature of the problem. The insight is often gained by analyzing and formalizing the issues – one wants to arrive at a set of rules.

During the last 30 – 40 years a lot or research and try-and-error development was done in the area of UI and usability. You could say that today we know pretty well what is required. For simpler devices and tasks used or performed in non-professional environments where user’s focus is on something else than the tool itself these rules are very well known. In this respect, due to expected simplicity and requirement for self-explain ability, a Media Player used in comfortable environments can rather be compared to an automatic teller machine than to a spreadsheet application. Then the main rules are as follows.

1.   Every screen shown shall consist of one and only one semantically uniform area.
2.   Within one screen, one control (button, key etc.) shall perform one and only one action.
3.   Between the screens, one and the same control shall perform the same or equivalent action.
4.   One and only one control usage (button, key press etc) shall be required in order to perform the very main functions/tasks required by the user.
5.   The user shall be given a feedback and information that will clearly describe what is happening, why, and where the user is in terms of task/service flow and other pertinent for user and task information

These rules do not guarantee that your UI will be a hit but they maximize the statistical probability that your UI will be accepted. Current Theater View violates all five of these rules. Apples Front Row violates the fifth.

Now we know what’s wrong. The rest is “only” a hard and sometimes boring work.

Regards/Mikael