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[JimH]

12.0.261 (6/19/07)

6. NEW: Added experimental "Sync From Library Server" tool, available with Ctrl+Shift+T. (may not remain)

Library Sync is an important new feature.   Copy files from another PC by starting Library Server on the first PC, then Library Sync on the second.

A dialog allows you to set folder locations and rules for the client.  For example: Images [C:\images\[Date(year)]

[Mr ChriZ]

So if I ripped a load of APE files on to my client,
could I send them back to my Server?

[Alex B]

So if I ripped a load of APE files on to my client, could I send them back to my Server?

I'd guess you need to start the server on the PC that has the new APE files and connect from the other PC.


I didn't go further than the first window, but if this is what I think a playlist selection tool would be good to have. (I didn't want to try this with my complete server library.)

What happens if some of the files are already present in the destination location?

[Matt]

What happens if some of the files are already present in the destination location?

The file will be left alone, but the library information will be updated from the source computer's library.

[JimH]

I'd guess you need to start the server on the PC that has the new APE files and connect from the other PC.

Good guess.

[Matt]

Tonight's build adds lots of goodies to this, including conversion.

If anyone gives it a try, let us know how it goes.

[Osho]

All my media files are on a shared NAS - which is mounted on both computers as H:. Is it possible that I can just sync the library without actually moving the files? Does the sync also sync the thumbnail database? I essentially do this currently with scripts - I have put the library in C:\Library and the thumbnail in C:\Library\tn and then I copy the entire C:\Library from PC1 to PC2. But it would be nice if this was done natively in MC12.

thanks,
Osho

[Osho]

Another question: will it work for ripped DVDs - which are imported as the .dvd file ?

thanks,
Osho

[JimH]

It should move your entire library.

[Mr ChriZ]

I'm really confused by this feature.
Could someone explain a scenario where you would use it?
If you've got files on the Server why does the client need a copy of them?

[Mr ChriZ]

I've had another think about this,
I guess if you had a laptop and wanted to make MC portable
that could be useful. 

[JimH]

Correct.  Or if you bought a new PC and wanted to move everything.

[gpvillamil]

Hmmm. So this enables the "laptop as an iPod" scenario?

[JimH]

Hmmm. So this enables the "laptop as an iPod" scenario?

Close.  You have to initiate the process from the client side though.  Maybe in a future version, we could run it automatically.

[John Gateley]

I finally got to play with this, it's very cool.

I have 100 GBytes (8000 tracks) of music in APE format. It's stored on my server (which has large disks), but played through my laptop sitting on top of my stereo. I want to take this music with me, but my laptop isn't big enough to store it all. I had been creating a "portable device" which was actually my laptop disk, and downloading playlists to it, but that doesn't give me what I want - it cannot handle smartlists.

Using Library Sync and running two instances of Media Center, I can make a copy of my library in MP3 format for traveling. And whenever I add music to the home library, a resync and it is copied to the travel library too.

1) Start MC.
2) In the advanced options, enable multiple copies of MC running at the same time.
3) Switch to your home library.
4) Stop Library Server
5) Start a second copy of MC (call them MC1 and MC2)
6) MC2: create an empty travel library and switch to it.
7) MC: Start Library Server
8 ) MC2: File->Library->Sync (choose conversion options)
9) Enter the IP address and port of your machine. Do not use "Search" here, it will not find it.
10) It should begin syncing.

It takes a long time, so I hit cancel when I need to take the laptop somewhere, and restart the process (steps 1, 3-5, 7-10) when I return.

j

[lalittle]

The file will be left alone, but the library information will be updated from the source computer's library.

What if the file itself is changed in some way, such as changing the filename or perhaps re-ripping?

Also, what happens to files that are deleted on the server?  Will these files be deleted on the "target" as well?

It seems like a "sync" should give you not just an identical library on both systems, but an identical set of files as well -- i.e. if you were to compare the folders containing the media files, they should be exactly the same.  In reading over this, however, I'm not clear that this is the case.

I guess the bottom line question is this:

I copy my media folders (containing all my media) over from the source to the target so that these folders are identical on both systems.  I then "restore" the library on the first system to the library on the second system, then do a "find and replace" on the paths of everything in the library so that the paths' drive letter is correct on the source.  This gives me a duplicate library on a second system.  Here is the question:  Would this give me the same results as using the "sync" feature (assuming I used the same path info in the sync parameters)?

It seems like the MC sync feature would be a better alternative to achieving the same resutls, but I wanted to confirm that the results would be the same.

Thanks for clarification,

Larry

[lalittle]

1) Start MC.
2) In the advanced options, enable multiple copies of MC running at the same time.
3) Switch to your home library.
4) Stop Library Server
5) Start a second copy of MC (call them MC1 and MC2)
6) MC2: create an empty travel library and switch to it.
7) MC: Start Library Server
8 ) MC2: File->Library->Sync (choose conversion options)
9) Enter the IP address and port of your machine. Do not use "Search" here, it will not find it.
10) It should begin syncing.

John -- forgive my confusion here, but what is the purpose of the second copy of MC running?  Couldn't you just sync the "first" library to the laptop?

I agree that this is a VERY welcome feature that I've actually been hoping for for a long time now since I also want to be able to use a laptop as a "portable device." The handheld sync options don't do everything I need for this, however, so it sounds like this new sync feature would achieve the goal I'm looking for.  That said, I'm a bit confused by some of the steps in your routine, and by some of the details in how to use this feature.

Thanks,

Larry

[NickM]

John, you explained how you would use this feature for a travel library.  Before this feature was available, I just created a local handheld cache on my laptop, then made a new travelling library that read the files from the cache. Functionally, is the new feature any different?

[John Gateley]

John -- forgive my confusion here, but what is the purpose of the second copy of MC running?  Couldn't you just sync the "first" library to the laptop?

Hi Larry,

No, you cannot sync the first library to itself. Library Server can only share the library that MC is using. So here's the scenario:
start MC with the Home library
Start Library Server
Switch to the Travel Library (in preparation for the sync)
Ooops - Library Server is now sharing the travel library.

So, you need 2 MCs running, the first on the home library, the second on the travel library.

Any other confusions?

j

[John Gateley]

John, you explained how you would use this feature for a travel library.  Before this feature was available, I just created a local handheld cache on my laptop, then made a new travelling library that read the files from the cache. Functionally, is the new feature any different?

Yes! You get smartlists! With a portable device, your smartlists are copied over as playlists.

j

[robydago]

john,
the server in your scenario is just a file server, right? otherwise I don't get why you need two instances of MC running on the same pc...

if your server was also an MC library server, then on the laptop you would only need an instance of MC I hope.

[John Gateley]

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

My "server" is a linux server and is not running MC. I use Samba to access the library and content from my laptop.

My laptop is the only machine running Media Center, that's why I need two instances.

j

[lalittle]

Hi Larry,

No, you cannot sync the first library to itself. Library Server can only share the library that MC is using. So here's the scenario:
start MC with the Home library
Start Library Server
Switch to the Travel Library (in preparation for the sync)
Ooops - Library Server is now sharing the travel library.

So, you need 2 MCs running, the first on the home library, the second on the travel library.

Any other confusions?

j

I was still confused until I read what you said in your later post, i.e.

My laptop is the only machine running Media Center, that's why I need two instances.

In my case, my desktop system is my "main" system, and it's running MC.  I would want to sync this system's library to my laptop.  Given this, the "2 instances of MC" on the same system are not necessary since I'm syncing between 2 separate systems, correct?

Also, I am still unclear about the questions I asked in an earlier post, namely:

How does the "synced" library compare to a situation where you manually copy over media files, and manually restore the library on the new system?  For example, let's say I copy my media folders (containing all my media) over from the source to the target so that these folders are identical on both systems.  I then "restore" the library on the first system to the library on the second system, then do a "find and replace" on the paths of everything in the library so that the drive letter in the paths is correct on the target.  This gives me a duplicate library on a second system -- it's how I've copied my library over to a new system in the past.  Here is the question:  Would this give me the same results as using the "sync" feature (assuming I used the same path info in the sync parameters)?  Or, will there be differences between these two scenarios?

Also, what happens if I delete or re-rip songs on the original system and then re-sync the libraries?  Will the song file on the target be deleted or re-transferred in these situations?  A "sync" would imply this, but I'm unclear on this from what I've read so far.

Thanks again,

Larry

[John Gateley]

Hi Larry,

I use my laptop because it fits conveniently on top of my stereo, plus I don't actually have a windows desktop at home. You do not need
to run two instances on your laptop.

I think the main difference in the two sync scenarios is ease. Using Library Sync is really easy compared to copying by hand. I can't really think of any other difference.

If you add content to your home library and resync from your travel library, it will add the new content to the travel library.

If you delete a track from your home library and then sync, it will not delete it from the travel library. This is something we are working on.

If you re-rip, it's a similar scenario. Deleting the original won't happen on the travel library, so you'll actually end up with two copies in the travel library: the original track (which was deleted on the home library) and the new rip.

j

[robydago]

john,
just out of curiosity: if one can survive with filtering what to sync only by file\folder location and not being able to convert files, I think that automatic file sync using the XP\Vista embedded offline sync feature should do the work, don't you agree?

[John Gateley]

I don't know - I haven't used the Windows offline sync.

However, the Library Sync does at least two things the offline sync won't be able to:
1) Convert files
2) Update the library paths automatically.

j

[robydago]

However, the Library Sync does at least two things the offline sync won't be able to:
1) Convert files
2) Update the library paths automatically.

1 - yep, you're right
2 - actually you don't need it: the path to the files don't change when you access them online or offline

but naturally you'll always be able to add new features\options to Library Sync.

[lalittle]

If you delete a track from your home library and then sync, it will not delete it from the travel library. This is something we are working on.

If you re-rip, it's a similar scenario. Deleting the original won't happen on the travel library, so you'll actually end up with two copies in the travel library: the original track (which was deleted on the home library) and the new rip.

I see -- so it's a bit different than what I think of as a "sync" in the traditional sense since the target folder is technically not the same as the source folder (i.e. some files on the target remain even after they're deleted on the source.)  I'm glad to hear that you're working on the "deleting" aspect of this, because in my case, without the auto-delete capability, I'll end up with quite a few "extra" files in the media folder on my target system due to all the changes and re-rips I'm doing these days.

That said, while this is being worked on, will the following scenario work:  Let's say I use a syncing program to sync the media folder on my source system to the media folder on my target system, giving me an identical copy of the media files folder on the target.  What will happen if I then run the MC Sync feature?  Given that ALL the files are currently on the source system (in the correct folders), will the MC Sync simply update the library on the target system?  In other words, since all the files are already present, does this mean that MC won't copy anything over?  I was thinking that by using the other program just for the "file copying/deleting" process, I would end up with an identical library on the target system WITHOUT the extra media files (since deleted files WOULD be deleted on the target drive.)  Would this work, or are there other considerations here?

It sounds like this is shaping up to be a VERY handy feature for people wanting to use laptops for "portable players."

Thanks,

Larry

[John Gateley]

Hi Larry - your hypothesis may or may not be true. The problem is that if the file is already there, Media Center is "smart" and decides it does not need to do all of the update library steps (in particular, it does not update the tags in the file if conversion was used). It may update the library, I don't know. Matt?

j

[lalittle]

Hi Larry - your hypothesis may or may not be true. The problem is that if the file is already there, Media Center is "smart" and decides it does not need to do all of the update library steps (in particular, it does not update the tags in the file if conversion was used). It may update the library, I don't know. Matt?

j

I was thinking there might be a catch to doing it that way.

Maybe it's best if I just continue to use my current "manual" method (described above) for the time being, and wait for MC's sync feature to include the "deletion" capability.  Do you happen to know if the deletion capability is something that might be incorporated relatively soon -- i.e. is this relatively high up on the to-do list, or is it more of a "some-time-down-the-road" situation?  I can see where the "conversion" aspect of this feature makes a "full" sync a bit tricky (since converted files are already different), but I'm not sure how complicated this might be..

It seems like the ability to "truly" sync the two drives -- including the deletion of deleted files or over-writing of changed ones -- is the only thing "missing" from the MC sync feature, but I think this capability is necessary to fully implement the "sync to laptop" idea.  I'm looking forward to seeing this feature develope.

Thanks,

Larry

[jmone]

Does Sync also copy the Tumbnails directory for Video Files?
Thanks
Nathan

[NickM]

A bolt of lightning…

Library sync is ( at the moment ) unwieldy.  And the function of Handheld Cache is relatively inflexible.  Both could be merged to provide a consolidated functionality that would appeal to more users.

Let’s  call this a “Local Music Store”; it’s not a library ( as a library doesn’t contain music files ) and it should have a transparency to synchronisation.

The Local Music Store could take the entire collection or a part, depending on the size allocation.

The present one-instance, followed by another and synching and converting etc, is a very convoluted way of achieving the end result.

The playlists, schemes, views – the entire library schematic should apply to the Local Music Store if the external music source is unavailable…

[gummbah]

Is it possible to copy only one or few songs with this feature?
Looks like you can only sync your whole library, but that is not what I want (not enough space on the client).

[John Gateley]

You can use conversion to reduce the size needed.

Or use handheld sync to only copy selected playlists to the client.

j

[hit_ny]

For some reason i missed this thread, but i have wondered many a time about the exact scenario that i think is being described above. That you have a laptop, and listen with MC on the road and when you get back, want to sync whatever stats back to the main library.

I expect you would be able to select files on some smartlist criteria or maybe even just a few playlists worth of music, press a button and the laptop has all required.

So its possible to sync in both directions,
- from source to target initially
- from target to source wrt to play stats.

Have i missed anything here ?

[AoXoMoXoA]

So this cannot be used to sync just the library database without copying the files?

I was hoping that is could be used such as when more than one PC accesses the same network drives, so they all can use a matching library.  
Then I can do all the updates to the library (tagging, imports, etc) and at the end of the day sync them all so they "see" the revisions.

Is there, or will there be, something like this at some point?

[hit_ny]

This is certainly desirable as well in the scenario i described above.

to sync (library to library) without necesarily transferring files over.

[lalittle]

This is certainly desirable as well in the scenario i described above.

to sync (library to library) without necesarily transferring files over.

Note also that since the MC sync feature does not yet delete files on the target that have since been deleted on the source, it isn't really a true "sync" yet.  According to the post from John above:

If you delete a track from your home library and then sync, it will not delete it from the travel library. This is something we are working on.

If you re-rip, it's a similar scenario. Deleting the original won't happen on the travel library, so you'll actually end up with two copies in the travel library: the original track (which was deleted on the home library) and the new rip.

In other words, it "adds" files to the target, but it does not yet delete anything, so you don't actually end up with a truly "synchronized" situation.

This feature is still pretty new, so it's to be expected that certain aspects of it are not yet implemented.   I'm really looking forward to seeing this feature develop since the ability to sync a laptop from within MC (instead of doing the multi-step "manual" process) will be fantastic for laptop users.

Larry

[Robo983]

How does the "synced" library compare to a situation where you manually copy over media files, and manually restore the library on the new system?  For example, let's say I copy my media folders (containing all my media) over from the source to the target so that these folders are identical on both systems.  I then "restore" the library on the first system to the library on the second system, then do a "find and replace" on the paths of everything in the library so that the drive letter in the paths is correct on the target.  This gives me a duplicate library on a second system -- it's how I've copied my library over to a new system in the past.  Here is the question:  Would this give me the same results as using the "sync" feature (assuming I used the same path info in the sync parameters)?  Or, will there be differences between these two scenarios?

I tried this feature and it seems that to sync the libraries MC has to do the coping of the files. I too have identical copies of my libraries on two PC and am not concerned with the addition or deletion of files as I can use my SyncBack to manage that.

lalittle, I do not understand the need to do a Find and Replace if your target pc has an exact copy? Is that still necessary if the drive letters and paths are identical on both source and target?

Couldn't the path "C:\Documents and Settings\User\Application Data\J River\Media Center 12\Library" be synced just like the media files to keep the source and target MC libraries in sync? Seems any changes on either source or target would change the date of the file and sync the newer one to the older one. This would be more automatic than a backup and restore but will MC choke on this because the PC names are different? Of course MC could not be running on either.

I prefer to do this in MC but if it can not do a scan of the two systems and do a real sync of only the differences, it is just too painfull to copy 50GB of media over a 50MB ethernet pipe. I do not not care that MC really does the copy and deleting but all my Library tags that do not get stored in the files I need to be consistent across my home network.

[lalittle]

lalittle, I do not understand the need to do a Find and Replace if your target pc has an exact copy? Is that still necessary if the drive letters and paths are identical on both source and target?

Their not identical -- that's one of the issues.  If the two systems use different paths (due to different numbers/sizes of drives, for example), you need to change the path on the target system so that the restored library on this system is pointing to the correct files.  The easiest way I know of to do this is to run "Find and Replace" on the entire library, changing only the path.

NOTE that you need to make sure Auto-import is temporarily off so it doesn't just erase all the library entries, which will all appear to be "broken" in MC.  (I "think" that they may have changed something recently that prevents this from happening when large groups of files are "missing," but I can't remember for sure.)

Couldn't the path "C:\Documents and Settings\User\Application Data\J River\Media Center 12\Library" be synced just like the media files to keep the source and target MC libraries in sync?

I'm not sure whether or not it's really safe to just copy all those files directly to another system, but once again, if the paths to the actual files are not identical, it won't work. 

I prefer to do this in MC but if it can not do a scan of the two systems and do a real sync of only the differences, it is just too painfull to copy 50GB of media over a 50MB ethernet pipe. I do not not care that MC really does the copy and deleting but all my Library tags that do not get stored in the files I need to be consistent across my home network.

That's why I was hoping for true "sync" capabilities from WITHIN MC, where MC would scan the two libraries AND two groups of files, copy over the new or changed source files to the target (leaving the unchanged ones alone), delete the files from the target that were no longer on the source, and update the library on the target.  The result would be a library on the target drive that was identical to the source drive, and all the files would be in the right place.  Effectively, it would be the same process as syncing to an iPod, only you'd sync to another Media Center computer -- i.e. think of the second, "target" system as a "handheld."

Larry

[Alex B]

Couldn't the path "C:\Documents and Settings\User\Application Data\J River\Media Center 12\Library" be synced just like the media files to keep the source and target MC libraries in sync? Seems any changes on either source or target would change the date of the file and sync the newer one to the older one. This would be more automatic than a backup and restore but will MC choke on this because the PC names are different? Of course MC could not be running on either.

This is fine if you do it from one PC to another. You can't create a mix of two libraries. You must decide which PC is the source and duplicate everything on the target PC.

The PC name is not checked at any stage when a library is loaded or used. Just make sure that SyncBack creates identical media file folder paths.

Also, it doesn't matter if the user name and thus the default library location on the PCs happens to be different. MC doesn't care about the location of the library files after a library is loaded. Only the media files must be in identical locations.

You can also add the thumbnail folder to the file duplication process if you want to avoid rebuilding the thumbnails after each sync. (MC uses a cache system for album art. You can find also the thumbnail folder under C:\Documents and Settings\[User]\Application Data\J River\Media Center 12\... )

C:\Documents and Settings\[User]\Application Data\J River\Media Center 12\Library

I have never liked the default Windows path structures. Personally, I always try to use the shortest possible paths. My library files are in C:\MC12lib\ and for example my main audio storage location is the very root of an X: drive. (I use the rule: X:\[Album Artist (auto)]\[Album]\[Disc #] - [track #] - [Name])

I don't have a physical X: drive or partition,  but I map a shared base folder with that drive letter on each PC on our home LAN. In this way I can use any folder as a drive X: and use an identical MC library on each PC. That folder can be mapped over LAN or it can be on a local HD as well.

When I am travelling the same library works on my laptop. I just map a shared folder on a big external USB drive as X:.

(This is a bit simplified version of my actual system. I have also the virtual drives Y: and Z: and I use locally the subst command instead of mapping shared folders and I have added some additional storage locations under the same virtual drive letters with NTFS junctions, but that stuff is not needed for making the X: drive system to work.)

[hit_ny]

This feature is still pretty new, so it's to be expected that certain aspects of it are not yet implemented.   I'm really looking forward to seeing this feature develop since the ability to sync a laptop from within MC (instead of doing the multi-step "manual" process) will be fantastic for laptop users.

Has there been any new devlopments since we last discussed this ?

dont recall anything in the build threads

It's still not possible to do just a library data sync, say from the travel pc to the home pc.

[JimH]

It's still not possible to do just a library data sync, say from the travel pc to the home pc.

I don't think we've done anything in a while, but that should be possible to do.  Details?

[hit_ny]

As mentioned here

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43126.msg294397#msg294397

[Robo983]

I have implemented my theory of syncing the MC library folder and it works very nicely. I stil think it would be better for MC to do it. I make all my library changes at the desktop and run Theater view on the target so I am not really ever changing anything over there except maybe building playlist...which I forgot to see if that would get transferred back to the desk top if the playlist file was newer but I think it has to work.
 
Is there a list of what each of the files do in the library? When I do a sync I see files tranfering from the target that uses Theater view that look like setting for views. I do not change views on that pc only run theater view. I never notice any changes in my standard view after the sync.

Also, I do tranfer the thumbnails but wasn't sure if that would cause me problems but get an error that a file is locked once in a while. I also do not sync the Cache folders. Should I be doing that?

I like the idea of mapping a drive letter to a folder. I have been lucky to have systems I can have set up identical drive letters. That may not always be the case and I do detest long file paths. I haven't played with it enough to know when I make the chose for where the library is stored. I would prbably like it in my Music Folder that could get included in that backup. I backup my Docs and Settings though so I do not loose my library settings.

[Robo983]

I lost my entire library last night. I do not now if sync'ing the libraries caused it but seems logical. It seemed to be working fine as I sync'd several times over the weekend and had no problems. Of course I got over confident and didn't make backups before syncing.

I tried to build a play list and as I started dragging media over it began dissappearing from my library. I tried to play serveral items and a completely different item started playing. I did an import of the folders and couldn't get the media to show up again, like it wasn't even there.

For now I'll stick with Library Server until the sync starts working or I get brave enough to try it again with logging on to see if I can find out what went wrong. I looked at the backup zip and it seems I am syncing the correct files that would be done on a restore so not sure what went hay wire.

Build 12.0.329
WinXP
No Addins
Library Size < 9K items

[John Gateley]

Do you mean the database or the actual media files?

j

[Alex B]

I lost my entire library last night. I do not now if sync'ing the libraries caused it but seems logical. It seemed to be working fine as I sync'd several times over the weekend and had no problems. Of course I got over confident and didn't make backups before syncing.

I tried to build a play list and as I started dragging media over it began dissappearing from my library. I tried to play serveral items and a completely different item started playing...

This sounds like you have managed to create a mixture of jmd files from two different libraries. I said that it is a one-way road.

In my experience it works fine if you do the following: Close both MC instances > Replicate the entire library folder on the destination PC. The safest way to do this is to first delete the library folder contents on the destination PC and after that copy the library files from the source PC. If you use a backup application to do that you must make sure that it is configured correctly.

If you are unsure about what you are doing you can always use MC's back up tool for creating a library backup file and restore that file on another PC.

You should have a quite recent automatic backup file in this location: C:\Documents and Settings\[your user name]\Application Data\J River\Media Center 12\Library Backups\

Edit

Did you have the Auto-importer active? Depending on the chosen options it may remove library files if the corresponding media files are not available.

I keep the Auto-Importer normally disabled and use it only manually for checking a dedicated import location on my primary MC server PC.

[Robo983]

My media was fine and intact with all the tags so it wasn't too bad to recreate the library but I did loose my play lists. It was just the data base. My auto backup was prior to lots of changes I had made before I sync'd. It wouldn't have mattered anyway because I am not sure which sync I had done that corrupted the DB.

I was trying to make it a two way road instead of one way by "syncing" not doing a one way backup. The main reason was to get any new play list I created on the HTPC back over to the desktp. I never do any tagging or Library Maintence on the HTPC. I thought I might start doing some ratings stuff I might want to go two ways but for now it is just the play lists. If I can't sync the play lists I may just plan to use library server anyway and create everything on the desktop. I hadn't used server much yet assuming that the media loading would be slow as I have experienced with other apps. MC must do a better job of caching or something because I haven't noticed any annoying latency yet.