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Author Topic: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding  (Read 5140 times)

richard.e.morton

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mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« on: August 26, 2007, 08:14:06 am »

Hi,

I cant find an mpeg4 audio encoder for jriver... nothing obvious on the encoder page, Lame is m3a/mp3... am i missing something?

Thanks

Rich
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JimH

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2007, 01:50:30 pm »

MC won't do MP4 audio encoding.
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richard.e.morton

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2007, 01:51:59 pm »

Thanks Jim...

is there any plans to add this?

Rich
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lepa

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2007, 02:56:17 pm »

You can always use external encoder. Get one for free for example from Nero's website. It's a command line mpeg4 encoder so it can easily be used together with MC.
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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2007, 03:10:55 pm »

Doubtful. 
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bbrip

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2007, 04:17:56 pm »

You could use dbpoweramp for conversion into m4a.

The Problem is that the format is not fully supported in MC12 and unfortunatly wont be for a long shot if understand the JRiver guys correctly...

I actually would love to convert stuff form APE into the lossless m4a option (ALAC) but I dont get internal coverart shown up in MC12 which makes it a no-go for now.

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JimH

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2007, 05:50:10 pm »

The Problem is that the format is not fully supported in MC12 and unfortunatly wont be for a long shot if understand the JRiver guys correctly...
Not exactly.   You can play M4A files in MC if you have Quicktime installed.  MC loads the QT engine.
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 10:11:38 am »

Not exactly.   You can play M4A files in MC if you have Quicktime installed.  MC loads the QT engine.

Or any one of the other available DirectShow filters that will handle MP4 files (such as Haali and FFDSHOW, Nero's decoders, or a wide variety of other options).  Remember, M4A is really just a MP4 with a different file suffix.  There is no technical difference between a MP4 file and a M4A file (Apple just invented a new file extension to denote MP4 files containing only audio).  Most of the time they are just AAC encoded audio in a MP4 wrapper (though they could just as easily be MP3 encoded audio in a MP4 wrapper).

What I'm not clear on is what you're asking for...

Do you want MC to handle encoding to AAC and then wrapping it in a MP4?  If so... Why?  Is there some reason the AAC file wrapper isn't good enough for you?  Apple used the MP4 wrapper because of their DRM, but certainly you aren't adding DRM to the files, so I'm confused over why you would want this feature.  Or, instead, are you asking for access to the Apple Lossless Audio Codec format (ALAC)?  If so, again, I'm not clear on why you want this feature.  MC already supports 3 lossless file formats (APE and WAV natively, and FLAC via Scot's plugins).  Could you explain why you'd need Apple Lossless encoding support?

Perhaps you didn't realize that M4A is not an audio encoding technology, but only a file wrapper format.  Read this for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4a#.MP4_versus_.M4A_file_extensions
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richard.e.morton

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 10:18:34 am »

I guess I am looking for a good lossy encoder (lossless is for storage today, too big), that has wide support. ogg is what I have been using, but I get fed up with transcoding - not nice :-(

I thought mpeg was a whole standard including multiple encoders, so I thought this was the solution as it seems to be better supported than most non-mp3 non-proprietary types.

Thoughts?

Rich

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bbrip

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2007, 10:35:20 am »

If so, again, I'm not clear on why you want this feature.  MC already supports 3 lossless file formats (APE and WAV natively, and FLAC via Scot's plugins).  Could you explain why you'd need Apple Lossless encoding support?

You are right glynor, but WaV just takes up too much space and APE and FLAC do not have proper hardware support. ALAC would enable me to transfer the files straight to my 80gb iPod without going thru any further lossy conversions.

On ALAC support via Quicktime, ffdshow etc., I understood this would still not show internal coverart in MC12, but maybe I pciked this up incorrectly?

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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2007, 10:58:58 am »

MP4 (and M4A) are NOT encoding technologies.  MPEG-4 Part 12 (which is what the M4A file type is actually called technically) is a specification for a file wrapper.  If you don't know what the heck a file wrapper is, then read this: http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DirectShow_Playback_Guide#Filter_Types (particularly the second paragraph).

The term MPEG is actually just a group of engineers who define standards for digital video (Motion Picture Experts Group), who work as part of the International Organization for Standardization (ISO/IEC).  Over the years, MPEG has defined a number of standards for both audio and video encoding and for file formats.  The MPEG standards are all split into a number of different "parts" which define different parts of the puzzle.  For example: MPEG-2 is often referred to as the "encoding format" of the video on a DVD.  However, this isn't technically correct, as the AAC audio format is also part of the MPEG-2 standard (which is an "advanced" version of MP3, which is just MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3).  MPEG-2 Part 1 defines the two different container formats for MPEG video (transport and program stream), MPEG-2 Part 2 defines the video encoding and compression technique we all know from DVDs, and MPEG-2 Part 3 is the audio section of the standard (which allows for multi-channel encoding and backwards compatibility with MPEG-1 standards).  In fact, AAC is actually also known as MPEG-2 Part 7!

The MP4 file type is a container format defined by the MPEG-4 Part 14 standard.  It defines a way to represent audio and video data on disk, and a way to include metadata tags about that data.  It does NOT define the way in which that audio or video data is compressed or encoded (though it does specify allowable types).  A M4A file is a MP4 file.  They are one and the same.  You can have lots of different types of M4A/MP4 files, just like you can have lots of different types of AVI files (or like there can be lots of different things inside a ZIP file).

There are other parts to the MPEG-4 standard, including:
  • MPEG-4 Part 2 which specifies the Advanced Simple Profile video encoding technique you probably know as DivX or XviD (or Quicktime's MPEG-4 file format)
  • MPEG-4 Part 10 which specifies a "better" video encoding technique you might have heard called H264 or AVC
  • MPEG-4 Part 3 which specifies extensions to the AAC audio encoding techniques originally specified in the MPEG-2 standard (it provides the High Efficiency and Scalable Sample Rate extensions among others)
  • MPEG-4 Part 8 which specifies a method to deliver MPEG-4 video content across IP networks
  • MPEG-4 Part 17 which specifies a format for timed subtitles

and on and on.

So, saying supporting M4A "encoding format" doesn't really make any sense.  M4A is a container format.  You can have a M4A file with MP3 formatted data inside, or with AAC formatted media inside (most are), or with Apple Lossless audio, or with any number of different encoding types.  In fact, since the file extension M4A isn't really part of the standard, you could just as easily have a M4A file with video data inside of it in XviD format!
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richard.e.morton

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 11:03:33 am »

ok, thanks!

so what are thoughts are aac quality v's ogg and similarly for hardware (PMP / uPnP) support?

Rich
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2007, 11:06:51 am »

You are right glynor, but WaV just takes up too much space and APE and FLAC do not have proper hardware support. ALAC would enable me to transfer the files straight to my 80gb iPod without going thru any further lossy conversions.

On ALAC support via Quicktime, ffdshow etc., I understood this would still not show internal coverart in MC12, but maybe I pciked this up incorrectly?

I'm not sure if MC can handle cover art inside a MP4 audio file properly when played via DirectShow (it can't via Quicktime but that's a Quicktime limitation I think).  I can test it out later.

Asking for ALAC encoding support is a different question than asking for M4A support, and that was my only point.  The iPod compatibility argument might be a valid one (it doesn't matter to me personally), but they might feel that they already support 3 lossless formats and that if you want a 4th then figure out how to write a plugin.  I don't know!

Either way... It's important to ask for what you "really" want, or you won't end up getting it!   ;D
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2007, 01:22:20 pm »

Thought I'd add... I just tested it out and MC12 certainly handles displaying and importing M4A tags, including cover art, just fine.  With the extension of M4A (and the M4A box unchecked in DirectShow Playback Settings), Quicktime handles playback and the cover art works.  With the extension MP4 (and the relevant box checked), then Haali and FFDSHOW handle playback and the cover art still works.

Now, MC does not support tagging these files natively.  I would like to see this (and MKV) added, for sure!!  However, if you properly tag the files elsewhere, MC handles them just fine.
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2007, 01:41:45 pm »

so what are thoughts are aac quality v's ogg and similarly for hardware (PMP / uPnP) support?

Read here:

HA AAC FAQ: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=AAC_FAQ
HA AAC Wiki Page: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Advanced_Audio_Coding
HA Vorbis Wiki Page: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Vorbis
HA Recommended Ogg Vorbis Page: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Recommended_Ogg_Vorbis

Keep in mind, if you use the MC built-in Vorbis encoder, it won't be the Aoyumi "enhanced" Vorbis encoder, so you'd have to compare to earlier Vorbis listening tests.  I don't know which Vorbis encoder MC12 includes, but I'd guess it would be 1.01 or pre.  Either way, for head-to-head comparisons, check here:

HA Listening Tests Multiformat Tests: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Listening_Tests#Multiformat_Tests

Also, keep in mind that most of these tests are focused on encoding at low bitrates.  That's because at high bitrates, both AAC and Vorbis are essentially transparent unless special source files designed to "trip up" the encoders are used.  If you always encode using "extreme" or "big file" settings, than it likely doesn't matter what encoder you use (even LAME).  The differences show when you try to squeeze those files down to small sizes!
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bbrip

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2007, 01:45:27 pm »

Glynor, thanks for  all your help. I have just tried again as well and UNCHECKED m4a extension in Directshow playback uptions.

However, I still do not get cover art displayed in MC12 in a ALAC (Apple Lossless) encoded m4a file.  The coverart does show up in ITunes, so it is definitly there....

Am I doing something wrong? Any other ideas?

Cheers
bbrip
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2007, 01:55:47 pm »

I don't have any ALAC files to test with (mine were AAC encoded and the tags were added with AtomicParsley).  Let me see if I can make one!
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2007, 02:23:35 pm »

Okay... Yep, you're right.

MC does NOT support embedded artwork tags in MP4 files.  My previous test was flawed.  Apparently MC has some new auto-artwork-importing techniques I wasn't aware of, and it messed up my previous tests.  I had a JPEG of the album artwork in the same directory as the test files when I imported them, though it wasn't named "properly" so I didn't think MC would grab and use it.  Apparently, if the import directory contains a JPEG (and maybe only one JPEG) it will import and use that file regardless of the file name.

So... That is certainly an area where it'd be nice to see improvement.  Support for:

  • Tagging MP4 files, including writing to both the "real" MP4 tags and the iTunes/Quicktime "Atom" tags
  • Reading/Writing MP4 Artwork tags as are used by iTunes and AtomicParsley (MC already does read many other tags from these files, just not Artwork).
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Alex B

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2007, 02:29:46 pm »

... it won't be the Aoyumi "enhanced" Vorbis encoder, so you'd have to compare to earlier Vorbis listening tests.  I don't know which Vorbis encoder MC12 includes, but I'd guess it would be 1.01 or pre.

It has been the aoTuV release 1 version since February: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=39164.msg266602#msg266602

I requested it and explained in the beta board why Aoyumi's tweaked version would be better.

After that Ayumi has released a new beta version (beta 5), but in my experience the changes are minimal.
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2007, 02:34:39 pm »

Cool.  Thanks Alex.  I just assumed it was the old, bad Vorbis encoder.  Nice to see they're at least somewhat up-to-date.

I don't know that HA has actually moved to "accept" the beta 5 version yet.  Most of the documentation I saw when just looking that stuff up referred to beta 4 and said beta 5 was still undergoing evaluation (though the wiki could be out of date).
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bbrip

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2007, 02:42:37 pm »


So... That is certainly an area where it'd be nice to see improvement.  Support for:

  • Tagging MP4 files, including writing to both the "real" MP4 tags and the iTunes/Quicktime "Atom" tags
  • Reading/Writing MP4 Artwork tags as are used by iTunes and AtomicParsley (MC already does read many other tags from these files, just not Artwork).
Thanks Glynor. We're on the same page here  :D
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Alex B

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2007, 03:02:03 pm »

Cool.  Thanks Alex.  I just assumed it was the old, bad Vorbis encoder.  Nice to see they're at least somewhat up-to-date.

I don't know that HA has actually moved to "accept" the beta 5 version yet.  Most of the documentation I saw when just looking that stuff up referred to beta 4 and said beta 5 was still undergoing evaluation (though the wiki could be out of date).

Some impatient guys at HA changed the recommendation to b5 even though b5 has not been widely tested and not properly compared with R1. (Beta 5 is recommended here: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index.php?title=Vorbis)

Aoyumi worked with his encoder about three years before renaming b4.51 as R1 and "officially" releasing it. He has not been very active at HA since he published the b5 version.

I tried b5 in an ABX test and couldn't find any difference to the R1 version. Both versions had identical problems at about 64 kbps bitrate (at this quality level the effect of the latest tweaks could have been audible).

However, it is always posible to replace the oggenc.exe file in the Plugins directory with a newer encoder version.
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Alex B

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2007, 03:38:03 pm »

BTW, I replied this only a few days ago:

Currently MC has limited m4a/mp4 tag reading support. It can read a few basic tags (at least: Artist, Album, Comment, Track Number, Genre, Composer) and not write any. AFAIK, embedded cover art is not supported.

If you have installed QuickTime, MC uses it for decoding m4a/ALAC. Some important features like Replay Gain, Internal volume, DSP, file converter and visualizations are not available with QT decoding.

It is possible to install DSP-Worx ALAC DirectShow filter. If the DirectShow chain is properly configured it should be able to decode ALAC files (it works for me with FDDShow & Haali splitter). This makes possible to use many of the features that are not available with QT, but it does not add support for embedded cover art.

However, even with DirectShow decoding ALAC does not behave as well as the internally decoded formats. For example, importing, analyzing and starting playback are slower than usual.

If you want to show cover art with ALAC files you could save the cover art images in the audio file folders. Mp3tag can mass extract embedded cover images to the file folders. You can find more info about this feature here: http://www.mp3tag.de/en/help/options_format.html and in Mp3tag's user forums: http://www.anytag.de/forums/


I wonder if an AAC/MP4 decoder and tagger plugin could be developed similarly like the FLAC decoder. If it were a third party plugin then JRiver would not need to deal with possible license fees. AFAIK, open source libraries are available. Any volunteers?

AAC/MP4 encoding is already possible with the command line encoder. I have posted setup instructions for the free Nero command line encoder here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=34823.msg237555#msg237555
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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2007, 02:54:50 am »

I asked for that some time ago, the only one who replied was scthom. He would like to develop a plugin, the problem is that he would have to pay high fees. The only way round that fees would be to onlya release the source code like the lame developers - but nobody want to take the risk.

tn1
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2007, 09:37:34 am »

I asked for that some time ago, the only one who replied was scthom. He would like to develop a plugin, the problem is that he would have to pay high fees. The only way round that fees would be to onlya release the source code like the lame developers - but nobody want to take the risk.

Fees to who?  MP4 and AAC are open formats.  Anyone can write encoders and decoders, and there are already open source implementations.

Or did you mean ALAC?  That might require high fees, if it was even possible!
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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2007, 02:57:44 pm »

No - scthom visited this page for checking out the license info.

look at this thread:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=38391.0

it discribes that the technology itself is NOT free.

But I wish it would be.

tn1
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Alex B

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2007, 05:19:01 am »

The situation is not clear. As I said, a lot of freely available source libraries and also complete programs are available and the patent holders are most likely not going to harass the individual developers that use these components and release their work without making profit.

Commercial companies have to play by the book and actually no one seems to know exactly which is the correct book. It is possible that a commercial company makes a deal with one party and after a while another party shows up claiming patent infringement.
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glynor

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2007, 08:05:00 am »

Exactly... I hadn't considered patent coverage, because patents are so.... bunk (for lack of a better term).

I do know that there are some disputes over the validity of the MPEG-4 Licensing Committee offering the "broad" patent license for all of the audio technologies in MPEG-4 (the license from VIA).  For example, AT&T has been making waves that MPEG-4 infringes on some of it's patents as well.  Heck, Apple has patents on the UI design of iTunes that, read a certain way, MC is almost certain to infringe (who knows if Jim has licensed anything).  That's why software patents are a VERY BAD IDEATM.  You don't know if you've done anything "wrong" unless you spend tons of money researching it (which exposes you to potential "willful" infringement), and even then, it seems to depend entirely on what Judge you happen to end up in front of!

Luckily, the recent Supreme Court decisions have put a serious dent in many of these frivolous patents.  It is entirely possible that the MPEG-4 Audio patents could fail the "obviousness" test the court recently upheld (the Apple UI patents I mentioned above almost certainly would).

I would say this... A much easier (and safer) way would be to just avoid the entire issue, and build a wrapper for Nero's AAC encoder (which does seem to edge out FAAC in most quality comparisons, if only by a smidge).  If you don't distribute or include the actual encoding libraries, but make the users download and copy them to the proper location themselves (ala most freeware video encoders that handle AAC encoding) you should be in the clear building a plugin.

My plan (if I had the time or skills) would be to build a plugin for MC that allows the nero libraries to be used via a simple interface that fits in to the existing MC "system" (just like the FLAC encoding plugin) that USES (but doesn't include) the nero AAC encoder.  It could even make it simple to install by checking for the existence of the proper DLL files when you load it, and if they're missing, pop-up a message telling you how to get them and where to put them.
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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2007, 02:04:18 pm »

gylnor , exactly that is/was my dream all the time. Nero is only behind apple aac when one considers the quality.
So Nero would be the best alternative.

tn1
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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2007, 05:04:11 pm »

It is possible that a commercial company makes a deal with one party and after a while another party shows up claiming patent infringement.

This is happening RIGHT NOW with Microsoft and MP3.  The parties that developed MP3 split ways.  MS licensed the format from one party, now the other party is suing (long after the fact).  Fortunately MS appears to have won.  The problem is compounded by the fact that some companies are buying small/defunct companies with unenforced patents just on the hopes that they can get money from lawsuits involving these patents.
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Alex B

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2007, 05:44:07 pm »

This is happening RIGHT NOW with Microsoft and MP3.  The parties that developed MP3 split ways.  MS licensed the format from one party, now the other party is suing (long after the fact).  Fortunately MS appears to have won.  The problem is compounded by the fact that some companies are buying small/defunct companies with unenforced patents just on the hopes that they can get money from lawsuits involving these patents.

The funny thing in this case is that Microsoft bought rights to include Fraunhofer's MP3 code in Windows & WMP from Thomson Multimedia. MS didn't develop their own code that would have supposedly used ATT's patented technology.

It is not difficult to guess why Alcatel-Lucent (the current owner of these ATT's patents) didn't sue the much smaller Thomson Multimedia for selling software products that use Alcatel-Lucent's patented technology without permisson.

http://www.betanews.com/article/15_Billion_MP3_Fine_Against_Microsoft_Struck_Down/1186501361
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rickw

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #31 on: September 09, 2007, 09:50:29 pm »

I'm having a problem with m4a. I have a tune that a friend sent me in m4a. MC plays it but it won't let me burn it onto a CD.  It has box  that states "failed because my computer needs Directshow to decode" It doesn't make sense because as I said it plays the tune but won't let me burn it.  Help!
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rickw

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Re: mpeg 4 audio / m4a encoding
« Reply #32 on: September 10, 2007, 10:32:08 pm »

Hi,

I cant find an mpeg4 audio encoder for jriver... nothing obvious on the encoder page, Lame is m3a/mp3... am i missing something?

Thanks

Rich
I just haven't been able to figure out how to post-so I've taken this approach--help............I have an issue--I have downloaded --off my email -- a tune in m4a format. I can play the tune in MC, but MC won't let me record it to a cd nor allow me to convert it to another format such as mp3. Any suggestions?? I have a Nero suite that came with my samsung cd/dvd player and I was able to play and record it to disc. Still, I'd prefer to have that option with MC. I can be emailed directly at fonics2000@yahoo.com --Thank you
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