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[JimH]

I wrote this e-mail to Tor (Mastiff) this morning:

Tor,
I was nosing around your site today looking for help for another user and came across your description of ZoomPlayer:

Extensive NetRemote integration and lots of other nice functions. And it lets me use FFDShow and all the custom filters I like and gives me extreme control over aspect ratios, which is nice with a CRT projector. And it lets me use renderless exclusive mode, so I can use VMR9, which looks better than overlay, without tearing.

I think you can do all of that with MC12 now, too.  Is there anything we're still missing?

Please reply on Interact if you prefer.

And thanks for the nice things you said about MC12.  Stop and see us in Minneapolis next time you're passing through.

Thanks,

Jim

[JimH]

He wrote back, so I replied.  I thought it could be useful for general discussion, so I asked his permission to post it here and he kindly agreed.

At 08:43 AM 6/17/2007, Mastiff wrote:

Hi, Jim!
Parts of my site hasn't been upgraded for a while, but I think you
have covered most of the bases on MC12 now. Of course I haven't tried
it that much with video, since old habits die hard, and I belive I was
using Zoom Player for video before I even came into Media Jukebox,
which turned into MC. And it would mean changing my whole HT
automation setup, which is a lot of programming. So I will probably be
using ZP for at least HT video playback for the forseable future.

 
Hi Mastiff,
I certainly understand that.  But you know about how curiosity killed the cat, right?

Thank you very much for the details below.  I'll comment on some.  Maybe Matt or Yaobing (who's done a lot of both our video and our TV work) may comment, too.
 

 
To the differences: If I'm correct, MC still doesn't support several
custom aspect ratios that can be called on with automation.
Or is that
in there now?
 

I think so, if I understand you correctly.  Build 242 added this, but search for aspect in Alex B's log here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=38834.0
 

 Last time I looked I think it only supported one custom
and a choice between the usual suspects (strech and so on). I need
different custom AR's for my CRT projector.

As for playback of file types I guess the Direct Show setup means that
it's exactly like Zoom Player. That's a pure direct show player, if
I'm not mistaken. But does MC support VMR9 renderless exclusive
playback? I see that you can select VMR9, but I don't see anywhere to
select the subtypes (windowed, windowless, renderless and renderless
exclusive). I need the exclusive type, if not my disply has tearing
like crazy. And overlay doesn't look as good as VMR9.

I'll defer to Matt or Yaobing on this.  If not, perhaps we can add it.

On NetRemote integration I'm not sure if MC supports changing stuff
like subtitles and sound tracks with feedback of what I'm changing to,
which the Zoom driver does.

We've added some on-screen display in the latest builds and if we don't do that now, we'll take a look at adding it.

That's the main differences I can think of right now, there may be
more. But I agree fully in that MC is a much more capable video beast
now than what it was when I wrote that on the page.

Thanks.  We'd like it to be the best at video, so keep prodding us.

And belive me, I haven't said anything that I don't mean! :-) If I'm
ever i your neck of the woods I'll call on you, be sure!

Great!  We'll buy the Schlitz.

[MrHaugen]

I think so, if I understand you correctly.  Build 242 added this, but search for aspect in Alex B's log here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=38834.0

Yes. The aspect ratios are there. Plenty of them. But that's also about it. At least in build 259.

First problem I encountered: There is not VMR9 renderless exclusive playback possible; as Mastiff also points out. I'm highly dependent of this.

A much bigger problem is this: When I try to select FFDShow RAW video filter or any of the other FFDShow decoder options I get the following error:

An error occurred preparing to play dvd video
The video decoder '..................' could not be used for dvd playback
Please select a different dvd decoder in dvd options

I have tried ffdshow version:
- ffdshow-20040801a_preview_SSE2.exe
- ffdshow-20050328.exe
- ffdshow-rev1316-20070623_xxl.exe

None of them work. This is even before I have configured anything in ffdshow it self, and it goes for all ot the ffdshow options under DVD configuration.
It seems to me that this have not been tested. I know that's probably not true, but unless I'm missing a major point here, there are still work to do.

I have been following Mastiffs HTPC guide for a long time and the video difference is amazing. Can't live without it, but I want to be able to us it with MC. If I can give you a pointer, try out the following components: DScaler 5006, AC3 Filter 0.70b, FFDShow 20040801a_preview_SSE2 together with Zoom Player and experience the possibilities, and how it all can work. They're rather old component's but still works. At least with ZP.
Though the guide are written in Norwegian I think you can easily follow the step by step instructions just by looking at the pictures and read the English settings description in the text.
This page would be a good start: http://www.hardware.no/guider/multimedia/htpc_trinn_for_trinn_-_del_7/15836/6

At page 11 he's describing how to enable post processing on divx and the like. I think that this is also an absolute must. It is here the postprocessing are really needed.

In Zoom Player there are also the possibility to set the Output color space to YV12 (wich I need), YUY2, YYU2 and lot's of others. I belive that the ffdshow setting would crash if MC have another output color space than defined in ffdshow. Not an expert in output color spaces, so I might be wrong.

I really hope you could try to adress this problems. Would make my MC experience complete.

- Carl

[gappie]

im also using zoomplayer. the reason is that i can change and choose chapters and subtitles easily with my remote. something that is impossible with mc 12. i really like the way mc video is going. seeing those two features in the new osd would be really sweet and the day ill go back to mc for watching videos.

[JimH]

im also using zoomplayer. the reason is that i can change and choose chapters and subtitles easily with my remote. something that is impossible with mc 12. i really like the way mc video is going. seeing those two features in the new osd would be really sweet and the day ill go back to mc for watching videos.

I thought that the new OSD options gave you that.  Remind us and we'll get it.

[gappie]

I thought that the new OSD options gave you that.  Remind us and we'll get it.

Thanks! i will. 

[MrHaugen]

Jim, Matt or Yaobing: Any more explanation on why I'm having the current problems? Especialy with the ffdshow raw mode.
It made a rather ugly stop in my MC video testing and setup.

[JimH]

Jim, Matt or Yaobing: Any more explanation on why I'm having the current problems? Especialy with the ffdshow raw mode.
It made a rather ugly stop in my MC video testing and setup.

Please start a new thread with details.

[gappie]

I thought that the new OSD options gave you that.  Remind us and we'll get it.

i thought.. well about the chapters and the new osd.. just hope it has not fallen of the 'list'.

[raym]

I thought that the new OSD options gave you that.  Remind us and we'll get it.

It does! and it's very nice..

[JONCAT]

Just noticed the added FFDSHOW for post processing in the DVD options. I just tried comparing the Dscaler mpeg vs. the Nvida Purevideo decoder with some light ffdshow processing. Both look really good to me.

However, when using the Dscaler codec I must have Blur & NR enabled (Denoise3D) or MC crashes.

VMR renderless would be very appreciated.

DC

[gappie]

It does! and it's very nice..

well... not on my system, or not for my files (mostly mkv).

[raym]

well... not on my system, or not for my files (mostly mkv).

Yeah, ok. Sorry... I meant it works for DVD.

[Osho]

About aspect ratios, I think MC12 has improved greatly over previous MC and even earlier versions of MC12. There are still things missing.

1. No ability to define custom aspect ratios. Some movies require some weird aspect ratio settings (e.g. stretching only horizontally and not vertically). None of the built-in aspect ratios work. And, I don't believe there is a way to define a custom aspect ratio in MC12 which says stretch horizontally by 115% and vertically by 90% (and name such custom aspect ratios).

2. No ability to remember the association of aspect ratios with the DVD/video files. If I selected a specific aspect ratio for a particular DVD/video file; MC12 should store it in library and automatically use it every time (just like it currently does for the playing position).

Other players (ZoomPlayer, TheaterTek, ATI's DVD Player etc. etc.) do these much better IMHO.

thanks,
Osho

[Osho]

About VMR9: would some kind soul please explain what is "VMR9 renderless exclusive playback" and why is it desirable over Overlay?

thanks,
Osho

[Osho]

Yeah, ok. Sorry... I meant it works for DVD.

This is another key weak point in the MC12 video playback. Some options and capabilities are only available for video types that are handled natively by MC12. If the playback is with DirectShow filter - some capabilities are missed. This shouldn't be the case. To the user, it should be transparent what is the playback method.

thanks,
Osho

[Yaobing]

This is another key weak point in the MC12 video playback. Some options and capabilities are only available for video types that are handled natively by MC12. If the playback is with DirectShow filter - some capabilities are missed. This shouldn't be the case. To the user, it should be transparent what is the playback method.

thanks,
Osho

MC does not handle any video "natively". DirectShow is the way to play video. Other options are Quicktime engine for Quicktime types, RealPlayer Engine for Real types, and Window Media Player Engine. These offer far fewer options than DirectShow.

With respect to the specific capabilities mentioned above (subtitle and audio track switching for video) we are still working on it.

[glynor]

Any love for chapter support in MKV, too?  (With the understanding that "we're working on it and it could be a while" of course.)

[Yaobing]

Any love for chapter support in MKV, too?  (With the understanding that "we're working on it and it could be a while" of course.)

Yes.

[glynor]

Fantastico. 

[JONCAT]

VMR modes:

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms788090.aspx

DC

[bbrip]

Once Chapter support is covered in MC12, then you guys are at peer with Zoomplayer and I would finally move video playback to MC12 - butz this is one key missing feature that should be covered shortly - I hope 

[gappie]

Once Chapter support is covered in MC12, then you guys are at peer with Zoomplayer and I would finally move video playback to MC12 - butz this is one key missing feature that should be covered shortly - I hope 

yes.... i cant wait to make to move back to mc12. thanks a lot.

[gappie]

 

[JimH]

Both chapters and subtitles are available on the OSD.  Try the up, down, then left and right arrows.

[gappie]

Both chapters and subtitles are available on the OSD.  Try the up, down, then left and right arrows.

nope, im sorry... not for mkv files. or am i missing something.

[JimH]

If MC uses WMP or QT to play the files, the OSD may not be available.  Try playing other file types.

[gappie]

If MC uses WMP or QT to play the files, the OSD may not be available.  Try playing other file types.

no wmp or QT are used for playing back these files. haali and mpv.
i just tried to post a screenshot of the filters used, but there seems to be something wrong with pix01.
so.. 'try playing other file types' is not really an option for me. using an other player is though. 

[JimH]

If you are in full screen mode, and you press the up or down arrow, you don't get an OSD?

[gappie]

If you are in full screen mode, and you press the up or down arrow, you don't get an OSD?

i get an osd, with brightness and volume etc. but not with chapters or subtitles. i get those ofcourse when i rightclick on the haali icon. but not in the osd.

[gappie]

would it help if i try to make a small mkv file with some chapters in it.. guess that i can do that.., even subtitles would be something i can manage. 

[JimH]

Sounds like we'd have to do some work on implementing support for haali.

Possible.  Is there a public outcry?

[gappie]

Sounds like we'd have to do some work on implementing support for haali.

Possible.  Is there a public outcry?

do i have to organize a lobby. 
reading the posts above there is support from glynor and bbrip for chapters in mkv/haali, and i know, you know how much worth their support is.

thanks.

[ThoBar]

The haali support sounds like a great idea given the requirement for chapter support. It is also good to see that MC is tailoring itself toward the most common format support programs (whether they be splitter, codec, or whatever). The mainstream proggies (ffdshow, haali, etc) have a lot of features that MC can really benefit from if it can directly manipulate these other products. I understand and support the generic abilites of MC's filter system, and hope that doesnt change, however for the most part, I think a lot of users would appreciate more indepth support of the mainstream filters from directly within MC (esp. from Theater View).

My 2c. (I hope I got the terminology mostly correct, was typed in a hurry - time for the AFL grand final, need to go drink )

[darichman]

It's got my vote, if that's worth anything

[leezer3]

Sounds like we'd have to do some work on implementing support for haali.

Possible.  Is there a public outcry?

Please 
I'd also appreciate the ability to select the default audio and subtitle language from tags if you implement this; Currently with FFDShow/ Haali, you can set systemwide defaults, but not for specific sets of files.
I normally want English audio with no subs, but occasionally I will want either to enable subs in addition to this, or set it to Japanese audio with English subs. Primary example here is Crest of the Stars; Uses portions of it's own language, so needs to have the right subs set enabled manually every time, but there are other culprits, usually those which are the victims of horrendous dubs

Cheers

-Leezer-

[glynor]

It's got my vote, if that's worth anything

Me too!

[robydago]

Me too!

Me too!