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[prod]

Why is it so difficult to get my Xvid AVIs playing in MC as well as they play in Nero Showtime?

I just don't understand how these products can just play them out-of-the-box where MC requires me to hack around in the codec settings. Even though I have decent quality in MC, I have to use a Legacy Renderer which disables Aero meaning all my DPI font sizing goes out the window, making a right mess of the display.

Is it just a case of messing around in the playback settings with all the different combinations until it works, or has anyone got a way to do this that works well? I use the Vista Codec Pack as well as Nero 7 codecs, but so far haven't got a combo going that works for me.

I've been told before that nVidia drivers are rubbish with VMR9, but what is Showtime doing that MC isn't?

[Jean-Max]

Why is it so difficult to get my Xvid AVIs playing in MC

No problem after installing the right codec:
http://www.xvidmovies.com/codec/

After install, when setup : uncheck the Divx decoding if you have previously insllalled the Divx 6.x codec..

[prod]

Thanks for the suggestion, but installing that (and of course telling MC to use it) made no difference. Same low quality playback when using VMR9.

Apologies to J River - this same problem occurs in Showtime in full-screen mode. It has to be graphics drivers ... think I'll just avoid Xvid in future, and nVidia.

[Jean-Max]

Thanks for the suggestion, but installing that (and of course telling MC to use it) made no difference. Same low quality playback when using VMR9.

Hello,

Have you installed MC on a Vista PC ?
If YES, you can try the new video render type, Vista specific, called "Enhanced Video Renderer"

You find EVR as last choice, in the Video renderers list, when, during a MC video playback, you right click / filters / renderer /

My test of EVR on my 2 Vista MC PC's (Desktop PC with PIV 2.8, 2g ram, Nvidia 6600gt agp 128 and Vista Laptop with Core2Duo, 2g ram, Nvidia 8400)
=> Good results  less CPU use, better results than VMR9  for all video formats (and Xvid)

Otherwize, on these 2 MC Vista PC, Xvid videos are well decoded by FFdshow , installed by CCCP..

On my third  MC PC (but on XP), the best codec for Xvid videos was not Ffdshow, but the true Xvid codec as I told you on my previous post

Last note:

If you have an Nvidia card, have in mind to setup it to Multimedia use , not to Games use !
For this, you have to change the initial Nvidia card  setup :
Change  from initial "Best Quality" to "Best Performance" :
=> This setup stops all the Nvidia enhancements useful only in 3D games (as Anisotropic etc..) :
(no use of these enhancements at all in an HTPC for multimedia !!)

Last but not least, try to find inside each video codec setup, the DXVA acceleration and hardware acceleration : they use the Nvidia Hardware PureVideo engine of the Nvidia graphic card (or ATI avivo on ATI cards)

[JimH]

Apologies to J River - this same problem occurs in Showtime in full-screen mode. It has to be graphics drivers ... think I'll just avoid Xvid in future, and nVidia.

We don't often get an apology.  Thanks.  Apology accepted.

[JimH]

prod,
I stumbled across this today and thought of you:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=922773

[Jean-Max]

Citation de: prod sur Octobre 14, 2007, 10:42:35 pm
Apologies to J River - this same problem occurs in Showtime in full-screen mode. It has to be graphics drivers ... think I'll just avoid Xvid in future, and nVidia.
We don't often get an apology.  Thanks.  Apology accepted.

By personal experience, I can confirm that in most of cases, the Media center software is not the cause on a bad video playback :
The main cause is most often the video codec, or the Graphic card driver, or a too slow Motherboard CPU  !

Exemple 1: the Nvidia graphic drivers are not well finalized for Vista (even the last one 163.69 of 18sep2007)
Example 2: the new Mpeg-2 codec for PowerDVD7, adapted for Vista, give bad decoding on Vista PC if this one has not a Core 2 duo and if the Nvidia GC is less than a 8000 series..

[glynor]

I know nothing about Vista, but for XviD decoding, the best filter by far is FFDSHOW, which can handle any MPEG-4 ASP (and most AVC) content.  FFDSHOW works quite well for handling XviD in MC on Windows XP, and I would guess Vista too.

Have you tried CCCP?

Also, to be clear, XviD is NOT MPEG-2.  I'm not even sure PowerDVD's filters can handle it.  XviD is an open source implementation of the MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Profile compression scheme (similar to DivX, 3vix, Nero Digital, and Apple's MPEG-4 compressor).  It is widely considered to be the best quality and highest performance MPEG-4 ASP codec out there.  It really isn't THAT CPU intensive... I have no issues playing back Standard Def XviD compressed content on my Pentium 3 1.0GHz machine.

[prod]

Thanks everyone for your replies ... I've got it working great now, using a combination of your suggestions. 

Jean-Max; brilliant suggestion to check whether I was using Best Quality or Best Performance. Changing to Best Performance has made a huge difference - now EVR works! Before, I got all sorts of flashy weirdness going on with the picture.

JimH and glynor; thanks for the info, I've switched to CCCP and fiddled with FFDShow... everything looks as good as I've ever seen now and all without screwing up my display!

Cheers!

[Jean-Max]

Jean-Max; brilliant suggestion to check whether I was using Best Quality or Best Performance. Changing to Best Performance has made a huge difference - now EVR works! Before, I got all sorts of flashy weirdness going on with the picture.

Happy for your results

Don't forget to check each setup inside Nvidia Driver "Best performance" choice :
To have more better results (dropped frames or small desync in Video render, etc..), you can deselect some more choices wich are unusefully stayed "on"  inside  "Best performance" choice

About Vista EVR: On not powerful Vista PC's, I have seen that VMR7 is a better choice than EVR :
Better fluididity in heavy 1080p Xvid videos

On a powerful Vista PC, I stay on EVR for Xvid and all the other Video formats
(note : for Mov / Hdmov format, I cannot choice the render mode inside QT alternative ..)

On XP PC, I use VMR9 for powerful ones, VMR7 for non powerful ones

Note : inside J River MC , I have seen that Video overlay (Legacy Renderer) often doesn't give good results..

I've switched to CCCP and fiddled with FFDShow... everything looks as good as I've ever seen now and all without screwing up my display!

Yes ! On Vista, FFdshow is a very good choice for most of video formats
...but for Mpeg-2, Gabest Mpeg-2 decoder (MPV decoder) is truly choosen by CCCP instead of FFdshow..

Best regards !

[Jean-Max]

XviD is NOT MPEG-2.  I'm not even sure PowerDVD's filters can handle it. 
...
 I have no issues playing back Standard Def XviD compressed content on my Pentium 3 1.0GHz machine.

PVDV7 cannot decode Xvid, (it has only Mpeg-2, H264 and audio codecs)

As you say, CCCP is a good choice for most video formats :

It's Seems the better choice on Vista PC

But, on XP PC, installing one codec by format seems to me a good choice,  because Mpeg-2, H264 and WMV decoders are using the Hardware capabilities of the Nvidia Graphic cards (or ATI)
(Ffdshow don't use this hardw. acceleration)

Note : On new Core2duo's PC : no matter: : the CPU power is enouth, no need of a good hardw. acceleration from the graphic card..

[glynor]

because Mpeg-2, H264 and WMV decoders are using the Hardware capabilities of the Nvidia Graphic cards (or ATI)
(Ffdshow don't use this hardw. acceleration)

Hardware decode acceleration of MPEG-2 is of dubious importance (even a P2 400 MHz CPU can handle MPEG-2 Standard Def content on its own, and any P4 or Athlon 64 class CPU can handle HD decoding).  Decode acceleration for H264 and WMV can be very important for HD video decoding (even with some of the lower-end Core2 and Athlon X2 CPUs), but it is only really helpful on a very limited range of recent video cards.

Essentially, right now only these cards have "worthwhile" H264/WMV acceleration support:

• AMD X1000 Series cards: decode acceleration in these is very limited (especially in the X1800/X1600 series cards), but can be enough to allow a slower CPU (such as a P4 or non-X2 Athlon64) to handle full 1080p decoding of H264 without dropping frames.
• AMD HD 2900XT: complicated.  Similar to X1900 acceleration support.
• AMD HD 2000 Series cards: full hardware H264, VC-1, and MPEG-2 acceleration support (generally considered the best possible acceleration, with the best possible quality).
• Nvidia 7 Series GPUs: acceleration is limited similar to the AMD X1000 series (slightly better than AMDs in some cases, worse in others).  Quality is generally judged to be lower than with AMD AVIVO drivers (but issues only appear in rare circumstances -- especially with Anime and other non-standard pulldown discs).
• Nvidia 8800 GPU (G80): very similar to 7 series support.
• Nvidia 8600/8500 Series GPUs (G84/G86): full H264 acceleration.  Reduced acceleration for MPEG-2 and VC-1.  Very good quality, virtually indistinguishable from AMD HD 2000 card quality except in rare (and somewhat contrived) circumstances.

[Jean-Max]

...
now EVR works!

As you, I choosen EVR on my Vista Laptop for Video renders :
Best results (Med frequency frames, Stability etc..)
 
BUT ..., I noted this:

Under Vista, if we choose specific Vista EVR mode as Video render instead of VMR9, we are no more able to choose "Use Screen Grap for Thumbnail", when Right click during an J River MC HD video play..

=> Is-it a bug ?
=> Is-it impossible to program because EVR ?
=> Can-it be updated/corriged by MC boys ?

Thanks

nb: To create thumbnail : return to VMR9, use screen grab, and return to EVR

[Jean-Max]

Hardware decode acceleration of MPEG-2 is of dubious importance
..
.  Decode acceleration for H264 and WMV can be very important for HD video decoding (even with some of the lower-end Core2 and Athlon X2 CPUs), but it is only really helpful on a very limited range of recent video cards.

Thanks for your perfectly clear post

On my previous desktop HTPC (XP SP2, PIV 3.2c@3.5, 2 g ram, AGP ..) I tested the following AGP Nvidia graphic cards :
AGP4X 6600 GT 128, AGP8X 7800 GS 256, and the upper AGP8X Nvidia GC found at this time: 7600 GT 256

I tested Mpeg-2, WMV and H264 decoding with 3 different HD videos downloaded from the net

I used PVDV7 deluxe codecs and compared with the last Nvidia Purevideo Codec

On each codec, I set "ON" the Nvidia hardware acceleration
and I compared the result with Nvidia hardw acceler "OFF"

In the Nvidia (last) XP driver of the PC, I set all for "HTPC only" use (Max performance setup, no 3D enhancements etc..)

The codecs setup were the same (Bob deinterlacing, VMR9 etc..)

The results :

- The 3 HD video playing formats (Mpeg-2, WMV and H264)  had a signifiant good benefit on  the 3 Graphic cards with the hardware acceleration activated

- The "best results" were with the 7600 GT (remember: higest AGP model):
that's why this CG model was the last installed on my previous (AGP) HTPC
nb: I called "best result": Less CPU % utilization + Framerate nearer to the optimum following the video file (25, or 30 fps) + less lost frames + less desync, etc..)

- On MY system, PVDV7 codecs gave better results than Nvidia PureVideo codec
(it was surprising for me, on.. Nvidia cards.!)

- The Hardware acceleration was very useful for my previous HTPC because it as not powerful

Now, as I said before, it's not so important on a more powerful PC :

The results are perfect on my new Vista Laptop HTPC (Core2duo, Nvidia 8400..), but...
... I cannot use Hardware acceleration because...
... None of te codecs which come with CCP codec can activate this hdw. acceleration !!
(MPV mpeg2-codec, FFDshow video codec..)

... and my tests with the new Vista PVDV7 codecs which can activate this acceleration, are not good at all

That' was my 2 cents

[glynor]

Thanks for the detailed test results, Jean-Max!

That is about what I suspected.  CPU usage with the 7000 series NVidia cards (and 8800GTX), and the AMD X1000 Series (and the HD 2900) series cards should be down on the order of 20-30% with supported codecs.  Whereas total CPU usage runs between 20-25% on the newer "full" decode support hardware (non-high-end HD 2000 cards and 8000 series cards, though Nvidia is H264-only), which is a huge difference.

That means you go from just being able to support 1080p playback with lower-end CPUs, to being able to support 1080p playback while you have background tasks running with lower-end CPUs.

[glynor]

For the record, the boy wonder had a nice write up on his site at the beginning of the summer that compared decode performance on a bunch of these cards: http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3047

It's a little dated, as newer drivers from AMD improved their decode quality on the HD 2600, but the performance analysis is still pretty good.