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[modelmaker]

I need a utillity to add chapters to my digitized VHS tapes before burning them to dvd and saving them to HD, preferably freeware or at least with  free full functioning trial.

[glynor]

What format (container file type and video compression type) do you want them to be in?

What format are they in now (or are they still on VHS)?

[modelmaker]

This video conversion and storage is all new to me. I've been playing with mpeg 1 & 2 and AVI. I want to use whatever is most efficient  to save these tapes with equal quality and without wasting archive space. Some will be burned to DVD, but all will be stored on hard drives to be played through MC.

The tapes are 90% concerts, some prerecorded, some recorded from TV. All tapes extra high grade or better, HiFi, but they are definitely not dvd quality.

One of the goals I have is to mix up audio and video clips in playlists. I have a feeling that someone is going to tell me I will have to cut up the videos into separte tracks to do this, as marking a video with chapters won't allow me to this, so I might have to keep 2 copies of each video.

So, whatever you can suggest to point me in the right direction would be great.

[glynor]

I can definitely help you with this effort.

A couple of questions though... What hardware do you have to encode the videos from tape (a make/model would be great)?

I would say.... If you want to mix and match on-the-fly with playlists in MC, you're going to have to go with separate clips.  MC doesn't handle chapters at all right now, and I'd say we're quite far from anything you seem to be looking for (where they can be treated almost like CUE files as separate tracks).  This isn't just an MC limitation... It is just how most video applications are going to work.

Assuming you HAVE hardware and that your hardware supports a MPEG-2 native encoder (or that you don't and you'll buy one that does) I'd look at Womble Video Wizard for editing the video (it can probably capture for you too though I've never used it for this).  It works well and is easy to use.  I wouldn't probably keep them in MPEG-2 format (not for hard drive storage anyway -- it is still too big) but I'd convert them to either XviD AVIs or X264 MKVs.  The benefit of recording direct to MPEG-2 (and editing in that format) is that going to DVD requires no re-encoding or the accompanying quality degredation and time sink.  You can just mux it out to DVD with an authoring application and call it a day!

For saving to hard drive for use with MC, I'd look seriously at using the X264 codec in a MKV (or MP4 if you prefer) container.  This is going to give you the best possible quality for the compression.

The trouble is, even though VHS may seem "lower quality" so then the compression used could be worse, this actually compounds the issue because you're talking about encoding analog noise and converting it to digital.  Taking a bad signal and making it worse, in other words.  The newer codecs (such as X264) are going to be much better at dealing with a noisy analog source, than some of the older simpler codecs.  The tradeoff is, as always, time and compatibility.  X264 video isn't really compatible with many hardware players, if you care about this.  I think you can actually get an Archos video player to handle X264 MP4s with an extra plugin, and if you are VERY careful with the encoding process I think you can make MP4 X264 videos that will work with an iPod but I'm not sure.

MKVs aren't really compatible with any hardware.  They do have one big benefit though... Much wider codec support, including (the heavyweight) AC3 compatibility.  MP4s don't support AC3, which means no direct no-reconversion rips from DVD.  This won't really apply to your VHS encodes, but it does stink.  MKVs also have much better subtitle and chaptering support, and all kinds of better features.  If you only need to support computer-based playback, this is a great way to go.  Check the comparison here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_container_formats

XviD AVIs are going to be much more compatible, but you'll need to use a fair bit larger file size to achieve good results, and X264 really does just do a better job with certain content (which may include your VHS).  Here's a rough little "good starting target size guide" (this isn't based on much more than experience and personal preference -- I'm no x264 or XviD encoding master):

XviD (2 pass) with MP3 @ ~160kbps VBR audio (very good quality): 550-600 MB / hour
XviD (2 pass) with MP3 @ ~128kbps VBR audio (good quality): 330-380MB / hour (but for 1/2 hour I'd still go with a bit larger and 220 MB or so)

X264 (2 pass better quality high profile) with AAC @ Q0.45 (excellent quality): 450-550MB / hour
X264 (2 pass better quality high profile) with AAC @ Q0.40 (very good quality): 270-350MB / hour

The two programs I'd probably recommend the most for the encoding are still:

XviD AVI: AutoGK
X264, WMV, or XviD (variety of containers): AutoMKV

AutoMKV takes a bit more legwork to get set up (it doesn't have an installer, and you need a few auxiliary applications installed -- mostly AVISynth).  I also  use AutoMKV with the Nero AAC Encoder.  Just follow the instructions to download the DLL and then put it in the indicated directory.

Another option that might work well for you would be something like the Plextor ConvertX PX-TV402U.  This can record directly to MPEG-4 ASP and DivX AVI files.  The quality isn't anywhere near as good as the two-pass encoding you can do after the fact, but if you have a lot to do, the quality is pretty good (I have one so I could post a clip if you need).  Editing it might be a pain.  I have the Mac version, and it actually comes with a nice simple recording application, PVR, and editor wizard bundled in.  I don't know what the Windows version has.

[modelmaker]

I would say.... If you want to mix and match on-the-fly with playlists in MC, you're going to have to go with separate clips.  MC doesn't handle chapters at all right now, and I'd say we're quite far from anything you seem to be looking for (where they can be treated almost like CUE files as separate tracks).  This isn't just an MC limitation... It is just how most video applications are going to work.

I suspected this was the case, so anything I intend to use with playlists, I will have to edit into clips and and anything that'll be watched as a "movie" will have chapters added to aid the search features in both MC and on DVDs.

Fortunately, I just replaced my 2 internal HDs with a 500g, so to start the video archiving, I have 2- 200g HDs. I was using 1gig/hr as an estimated time for video. I did do one video with mpg 2 set at highest & 720x480 and ended up with video file of 7gigs, a bit toooo big, but it sure looked good. I would be happy with 2-3gigs per 2 hr  tape.

As far as hardware goes, temporarilly I have a hand-me-down ATI Radeon X-1650 (no video input), so I had to pick  up a TV/Video capture card. It's a TVR SAA7130TV, the card is made by Phillips and the software is Korean. It is capable of converting the VHS to mpg 1, 2 & 4 and AVI. The mpg 1 & 2 are the only ones that have any further settings such as speed, quality,bitrate, framerate and size. The device/software also won't allow any other program to use it. So it will have to do for now.

The rest:
Media Center Registered 12.0.351 -- C:\Program Files\J River\Media Center 12\

Microsoft Windows XP 5.1 Service Pack 2 (Build 2600)
AMD Unknown 2199 MHz MMX / Memory: Total - 1047 MB, Free - 565 MB

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2900.2180 / ComCtl32.dll: 5.82.2900 / Shlwapi.dll: 6.0.2900 / Shell32.dll: 6.0.2900 / wnaspi32.dll: N/A
 
Burning /  Drive Z: SONY     DVD RW DRU-840A    Addr: 1:0:0  Speed:40  MaxSpeed:40  BurnProof:Yes


What I'm after is to retain the VHS "quality" for PB thru MC to my TV and buning DVDs as "permanent backups". Memory is not really an issue, I have the 400gigs to start with and it's only getting cheaper, although i wouuld like to get a 2 hr program down to a bit less than 7 gigs!

So a question, Should I record to HD with all the highest settings, make a DVD, then convert using one of the codecs you mentioned for storage on the HD?

Also, should I choose the 640x480 size for TV playback? I'm assuming that the smaller sizes would have to be resized during playback.

I'm going to go ahead and dl the womble wizard and check it out. Jim will probably move this thread when he checks in as it is not directly MC related.

You've really been a big help. I spent the last few years converting a few thousand LPs and now it's time to start the VHS tapes, (about 800 hrs, incl. all 100+ hrs of Woodstock '94 & '99). I'm going to do some more reading, so future questions will hopefully be intelligent and more informed!


Thanks, Jay.

[rjm]

I agree with everything that Glynor said but I would like to offer another approach that might be simpler if you wish to avoid some of the nasty complexities of video capture, editing, and compression.

Go to Costco and buy a combo VHS tape/DVD-R recorder. These are quite inexpensive and allow you to copy a VHS tape to a DVD disc without a computer or any technical knowledge. I have found the quality of the resulting DVD to be as good as the original VHS tape (which is not surprising since VHS quality is generally poor). Note that you can do simple edits on these machines by pausing the DVD recording, fast forwarding the tape, and resuming recording. When complete you have a disc that will play in any DVD player.

If you wish to go beyond this, purchase a copy of Adobe Premiere Elements. It is reasonably priced since it is targeted at the home computer consumer, and is by far, the best non-professional video editing software available today.

You then copy the DVD disc you produced above to your hard drive and edit the video using Premiere Elements. You can do anything you can possibly imagine including adding titles, effects, music, and still photos. When done editing you burn your creation to another DVD disc which again will play in any DVD player.

If you wish to keep all of your video permanently on your hard drive, then you should go the next step and compress the video.

There are many tools and approaches to video compression. What Glynor suggests is indeed the best approach. But if you want something that is simple and works reasonably well with little or no technical knowledge, I suggest you try DivX Converter which comes with the pro version of DivX (again quite inexpensive).

Roughly what you do is export your video clips using Premiere Elements to the standard format used by DVDs (mpeg2). Then drag these clips onto DivX Converter. After a few hours your video will be compressed to the DivX format in an ".AVI" container. DivX is very similar to XviD and will play on both your computer and most modern DVD players.

As a final step import your AVI files into Media Center and assign the necessary tags to allow you to organize and find your video.

[darichman]

A good read Thanks!
How do you guys go about deinterlacing interlaced content?

I've experimented with MediaCoder and AVS Video Tools a bit, but never really found a balance between quality and space I was happy with... I might give MKV a go...

Do any of the video editing programs support the matroska container?

[glynor]

How do you guys go about deinterlacing interlaced content?

Do any of the video editing programs support the matroska container?

AutoMKV automatically detects and de-interlaces content.  If it's auto detection system fails, you can select the de-interlace method manually, and it even has options to deal with Anime and other weird-pulldown video.  AutoGK also does, though it offers a bit fewer options by default (there is a secret hidden "advanced" menu but it is hard to access).

For the other question, no.  Nothing really supports MKV.  However, you certainly DO NOT want to edit highly-compressed MPEG-4 (ASP or AVC) video!!  The recompression needed every time you edit would kill your quality.  MPEG-2 is bad enough.

Most video editing applications, do not edit in even MPEG-2 natively.  The vast majority of them (especially in the consumer space) are going to work using the DV codec.  For example, Adobe Premiere Elements referenced above, which is a very nice consumer video editing package, works in DV.  You can ingest other formats, but when you place those assets on a timeline (edit them at all basically) they are going to be transcoded to DV.  DV is an okay format for some purposes (it is used by most standard-def MiniDV camcorders) but it has some big problems with video destined for DVD.  To explain this in detail, you have to understand how color is encoded in video.  I can explain this if you want, but suffice to say that transcoding video to DV and then to MPEG-2 for DVD results in a loss of fully 1/2 of the possible color resolution in the source video.  This takes already-bad VHS content and makes it worse.  If the goal is MPEG-2 for DVD, and you aren't going to do any "heavy-lifting" editing (so you might trim the beginning and end and remove some commercials or whatever, but not "edit for content" over multiple edit sessions) I'd strongly recommend you stay in MPEG-2 throughout the chain.

For that, you're best bet is likely the Womble editor I mentioned above.  There are other options... Pegasys (the TMPGenc people) also make one that's pretty nice, and there are others, but MPEG-2 native editing is rare in the consumer space still.  In the future as HDV cameras get more popular, this may change (HDV is MPEG-2 compressed) but for now that's where we are.

What you don't want to do with MPEG-2 sources is edit them over and over, in ways that require re-rendering or re-compression.  With the Womble editor, it only recompresses the video if you add effects like fades and overlays and whatnot (changing the content of the video).  If you just trim the video with some simple cuts (clip out parts or maybe re-arrange a bit with no fades or effects), it can do that without recompressing.  Otherwise, you'll always want to do the edits "in one fell swoop".  In other words... Don't do a little, export it, then open up the export and do a little more, export it, etc.  If you add effects that require recompression, each "save" this way will substantially degrade the quality.  Most of the editors take this into account and "save" to a simple file that tells the editor what to do when you are finally done and just use the source file until then, and doing that is fine.

I'll post some more in a bit...

[darichman]

Thanks Glynor... your advice is very helpful.

At this stage, I'll probably be looking at archiving MPEG-2 files somewhere so if I want to do minor editing somewhere along the line they're there.... but use MPEG 4 in the matroska container for all my general playback (in MC etc)

[glynor]

Yeah... I'd probably do this.

1. Capture to MPEG-2 and edit as desired using a "native" MPEG-2 editor.  Capture at essentially the highest quality your hardware supports (6.0Mbps will let you put 2 hours on a standard DVD-R disc).
2. Burn this off to DVD and store safely away.  You'll also need a DVD Authoring App for this.  If you end up going with the Womble Editor, you could just get their DVD version.  I've never used that part of it (I use Apple's DVD Studio Pro) but it is there.
3. Take the MPEG-2 files you captured, re-edit them if needed to make them into smaller "cuts", and then encode those to X264 in a MKV (using AutoMKV) container for hard disk storage and use in MC.  The only alternative might be to encode them to x264 in a MP4 container with an iPod compatible profile, if you think you might every want to support iPod playback.

If you have any questions about using AutoMKV, just ask (though they do heavily monitor that thread over at Doom9 so that would be a good place to ask too).