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[jroyale]

My issue here is that you say it is the best form of support but then go on to say that you answer posts based on a totally subjective system which means that not all posts will be answered.  If you had phone support and called I wouldn't be too pleased if you said "Sorry, we don't feel like answering that question".  You make it encumbent on the client to post in a manner which you like when in fact it should be encumbant on your company to answer all posts if this is the form of tech support you have chosen.

[modelmaker]

My issue here is that you say it is the best form of support but then go on to say that you answer posts based on a totally subjective system which means that not all posts will be answered.  If you had phone support and called I wouldn't be too pleased if you said "Sorry, we don't feel like answering that question".  You make it encumbent on the client to post in a manner which you like when in fact it should be encumbant on your company to answer all posts if this is the form of tech support you have chosen.

I think that was said with tongue in cheek, however I think it would be helpfull if even unanswerable questions were acknowledged somehow.

[RacheRock]

My issue here is that you say it is the best form of support but then go on to say that you answer posts based on a totally subjective system which means that not all posts will be answered.  If you had phone support and called I wouldn't be too pleased if you said "Sorry, we don't feel like answering that question".  You make it encumbent on the client to post in a manner which you like when in fact it should be encumbant on your company to answer all posts if this is the form of tech support you have chosen.

I think that was said with tongue in cheek, however I think it would be helpfull if even unanswerable questions were acknowledged somehow.

I'm really sorry to say that I couldn't agree more with both comments.
On one instants,I've recently posted the same question twice, but have just been ignored. I'm starting to wonder if it's worth my while being year, and wether it's a waste MY time in offering what I personally think is constructive contributions towards MC.

I understand that many suggestions and requests are not always going to be included in future versions, but if someone like me takes the time and shows enough interest in MC, they should be acknowledged.

[glynor]

I would tend to agree if you were paying for support.... But for $40 you're really not.  Consider Windows... With Vista (which costs $220 for the retail Home Premium Version) you get 90-days of free support (phone, web chat, or email) after which it costs $59.00 per request.  (And, BTW, you can't compare the pricing for OEM or Upgrade versions of Vista because these come with no free support.)  Not only that, but Microsoft excludes whole swaths of questions from eligibility from "standard support".  I've heard that if a question is significantly "isolated" or "complicated" they will require you to pay for "Advanced Support".

Advanced issues include problems that are associated with software and hardware development, network connectivity, server-based technologies, and business-critical systems. Issues can also include problems that are associated with configuration and deployment of business workstations and servers.

Advanced Support is available for $259.00 USD during business hours. After-hours support is available for $515.00 USD and provides support only for business-critical issues. Business-critical issues are defined as situations that involve a system, a network, a server, or a critical program down situation that severely affects customer production or profitability. These are high-impact issues where production, operations, or development are proceeding but could be severely affected within several days.

Also, considering economies of scale, it is quite likely that JRiver would need to charge substantially more for support requests than Microsoft does for Vista.

So... I'd say, would you prefer this type of model?  Where you need to pay for support if you want any answer from the JRiver staff at all (and the forum would be unmonitored)??  I'd certainly say no!

That said.... If you want to pay me $90 per incident, I'll give you my email and phone number.   

[skylarplane]

Well I have to say on a great positive note, John Gately gave me a tremendous amount of his time helping me with a MC problem until it was resolved.

My only complaint is that I would like to see JRiver set up some online video
of how all the options work in MC.  Right now its just a place to put my songs
and cover art and there isn't much more I know how to do.

Skylar

[Jonahsdad]

I don't need a lot of support.  I do feel disrespected when I am ignored. 

How's about someone keep a little notepad document on their desktop with a few choice phrases to cut & paste (or maybe one of you programming types could write a macro or something).  "That question has been addressed elsewhere.  Please search the forums for your answer."  "Please check the Wiki.  Thank you for using MC."  "We value your business, but I don't understand your question.  Could you please rephrase it?"  "Interesting idea.  we'll consider it for a future version."

Written once, these types of responses would show courtesy and respect for those who have paid you money.  Being nice to your customers is good for business.

[MusicHawk]

>> You make it encumbent on the client to post in a manner which you like

Which is quite difficult, even for bug reports, requests for clarification of poorly-documented aspects, and UI feedback. Over the years (and recently) I've reported several issues with MC that have not been addressed, nor disproven, or even rejected as "live with it" -- just ignored. Because....?

Fortunately, fellow users often try to help, and sometimes have the perfect answer. But some product issues can't be addressed by users, other than to confirm that it's a legit question. Those of us who have been using MC for years (I started with MJ7) might be used to it. But what is the impression on a prospective customer who prowls this forum to evaluate the product and the company?

The typical scenario, quite visible in this forum, might be: User tries to do something, following UI or wizard or Help and/or Wiki info. It doesn't work as expected. User experiments, and maybe gets it to work sort-of, or not. User posts a message explaining all this. Maybe the product has a documentation error. Maybe there's a bug. Maybe the user is just stupid. But when MC doesn't respond, it suggests an attitude that greatly undermines the impressive effort of the product's developers.

To MC's credit, the forum is rarely censored to hide the complaints. But the need for complaints also degrades the product's merits, doesn't it?

Saying that the product price doesn't include support is like saying this is a hobby, not a business. Taking money requires taking responsibility too: document the product thoroughly, or responsibly answer all legit questions ad-hoc. Otherwise, how can customers be satisfied that they got what they paid for -- which is the ability to do what the product promises, nothing more, nothing less -- whatever the price?

I think MC is under-priced for what it potentially provides, if only the documentation and support were stronger.

A solution could be to focus on and beef up the wiki. Lots of fabulous advice and explanation is posted in the forum but absent from the wiki. Posting it there, ONCE, could make it a lot easier to reduce individual support. And when responding to requests for help, point to the wiki where the complete answer resides, OR use the question to realize what's missing and add it to the wiki.

[JimH]

MC touches a lot of aspects of digital media.  It's impossible for JRiver to answer every question. 

We ran a poll the last time someone complained about support.  It asked the following question:

If you've used our support, how would you compare results to other software products in the same price range?

75% said the support was "a little better" or "much better".

Poll results

Glynor's comments on Microsoft support prices show the true cost of support. 

Would you be willing to pay $50 per incident?  If so, we could probably start a support department to listen to your questions and answer every one of them.

[Alex B]

Perhaps Bob could create a "forum script" that would bump any thread with zero replies when it falls to the page number two or three.

It could create a standard reply like:

Unfortunately no one has replied yet. I hope you will get replies after this bump.

cheers,
the forum robot

 

Seriously, I just checked the page two on this board. Seems like there are only two topics with zero answers that would need to be replied. Perhaps the admins could check the page two and three about daily and post at least some kind of a short standard reply as requested earlier.

(I'll try to help when I have time and when I can, but, for example, I don't have answers to the questions asked in the mentioned two posts.)

[richard.e.morton]

I am pleased and amazed by this thread being pinned to the top of this board.

I have never seen a software company be so unbiased to good debate even debate that has the potential to be negative. I for one am overall happy with the support on this forum although it is frustrating when a question goes unanswered. When that happens I am unsure that is because it's a stupid question, no-one knows or everyones missed the question...

Rich

[cosmicfx]

I am pleased and amazed by this thread being pinned to the top of this board.

I have never seen a software company be so unbiased to good debate even debate that has the potential to be negative. I for one am overall happy with the support on this forum although it is frustrating when a question goes unanswered. When that happens I am unsure that is because it's a stupid question, no-one knows or everyones missed the question...
Rich

I would agree with what Rich (as well as with what a few others had to say) above. Especially what I made in bold type.

It leaves a person feeling unsure. Some standard cut and paste answers would make a big difference. And I'm sure it won't take alot of time, considering the few posts which have not been answered.

Thanks to MC for a great product.

[cosmicfx]

Perhaps Bob could create a "forum script" that would bump any thread with zero replies when it falls to the page number two or three.

It could create a standard reply like:

 

Seriously, I just checked the page two on this board. Seems like there are only two topics with zero answers that would need to be replied. Perhaps the admins could check the page two and three about daily and post at least some kind of a short standard reply as requested earlier.

(I'll try to help when I have time and when I can, but, for example, I don't have answers to the questions asked in the mentioned two posts.)

I've been thinking about his, and I thought I'd just mention that this from Alex B, could maybe also be a good idea??

[park]

I think that things are fine as they are now. There is an active community. There is a forum and a constantly updated wiki. As long as the developers accept and react to the ideas of the more senior, knowledgeable forum members (like alexb, marko, glynor etc.), those members will have a reason to hang out here, and naturally contribute to the community.

MC is so vast now, and used in so many situations, and extended by so much third party software, that anything short of community style support would (in my mind) be a wasted effort anyway.

I do agree that some videos are in order. I swear that that is the one area I'd like to help with myself (I work in video production) if I werent so lazy (though this 5 year old 1ghz vaio laptop would struggle to do decent video screen captures, in my defence). I'm getting a nice shiny mac pro on the next hardware refresh so, time allowing, I'll make a couple of "MC Intro/ Workflow" videos.

[glynor]

I'm getting a nice shiny mac pro on the next hardware refresh so

You'll love it.

I love mine.   

[jgreen]

I'm one of those that voted the support as much better than the competition.  Just focusing on the level of support, I can't think of ANY software operation that provides better, without charging a LOT for it.

And yet, AFAICT, jriver doesn't have a dedicated support staff--these are the developers (along with the Figurehead) answering your questions.  I would grant you, some sort of AI program that generically answered every support request with a kind note and a 20-digit queue number would be nice (I'm kidding), but these guys prefer to put their programming efforts into increased functionality for the software product.

I'm dismayed that jriver is getting pummeled so much on the support issue.  I think a series of how-to videos MIGHT help this.  I love the video idea (especially if Park and other users get busy producing them), but I'm skeptical that that will be enough to placate those that feel "disrespected" because an AI program didn't email them back.  Ultimately, I think that happiness is something you either bring with you in life, or not. 

So I would just say the the jriver crew:  Keep up the great work, keep strong, we really appreciate your efforts!   

[cosmicfx]

As long as the developers accept and react to the ideas of the more senior, knowledgeable forum members (like alexb, marko, glynor etc.), those members will have a reason to hang out here, and naturally contribute to the community

Wow Park! That sonds just a bit snobbish doesn't it?
Are you saying that because I am a new member, that my opinion, concerns and suggestions shouldn't be addressed as equally important by MC? As long as only the "senior" membes are taken care of, then that's ok?

I hope that ISN'T the policy of MC's forum, as I read a very welcoming intro to the forum.

I personally am extremely happy with the support I am getting so far.
But I'm sure MC doesn't fear the natural opinions by any person whom would like to voice any complaints or concerns.

Thanks, cosmic

[cosmicfx]

Just a possible a suggestion from a "new" member.

What about having a totally separate independant forum ( no part of MC12 at all, but under the top "General" header, for any possible concerns ... and maybe also a forum specifically for "Suggestions" from users. And the rule is placed on that forum that MC will respond, but at no set date, only when it has a chance.

I saw this in another product forum, where the "Technical" and the "Suggestions" are in sparate forums.

Just a thought if it might make things easier ... or not.

Thanks, cosmic

[JimH]

I don't think Park meant it in a snobbish way.  At least I didn't detect anything like that.

It is true that there are more than a few members here who know a heck of a lot and spend considerable time sharing it.

It's also true that when they make a suggestion, we tend to give it careful consideration.

But everyone has a voice here, and new users sometimes bring something special when they come.

[glynor]

Wow Park! That sonds just a bit snobbish doesn't it?
Are you saying that because I am a new member, that my opinion, concerns and suggestions shouldn't be addressed as equally important by MC? As long as only the "senior" membes are taken care of, then that's ok?

I hope that ISN'T the policy of MC's forum, as I read a very welcoming intro to the forum.

I don't think that's how Park meant it either, and it certainly not any "policy" here at all.

I'd also say that your contributions in particular, cosmic, have been great.  It's good to have new users like you!

[Mr ChriZ]

I work for a very tiny company.  They employed me to do development work
but sadly it hasn't worked out that way.

I spend to much of my day sitting on the phone resolving issues from
customers for the system we sell.

Customers pay around £3000 ($6000ish) a year for me to sit on the
end of a phone (And to be fare to travel out to them
when it really goes wrong), and sort stuff out.

I'm sure Jim would love to setup a similar service
but I doubt many people would pay it

I'm trying to code myself out of the job, but it's not working so well!

[KingSparta]

I sent a e-mail to HP support, never got a reply and waited a week

I sent another e-mail to HP support, never got a reply and waited another week

I ordered the new drivers on CD, and in a few days the CD showed up

a week later they sent me a E-mail asking me to fill out a survey

I filled out the survey, and the next day I got a phone call

so last Friday I was on the phone for about 3 hours with HP Tech support

going thru the script of installing an uninstalling, using there uninstall cleaning program, and going thru the registry.

we never got this HP program working.

So the moral of this short story is this forum support is what we all can make of it, taking the good with the bad, helping others, and making it work.

[JimH]

So the moral of this short story is this forum support is what we all can make of it, taking the good with the bad, helping others, and making it work.

Nicely said.

[cosmicfx]

So the moral of this short story is this forum support is what we all can make of it, taking the good with the bad, helping others, and making it work.

Cool!