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Author Topic: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??  (Read 2867 times)

cwilliams222

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Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« on: November 26, 2007, 02:14:18 pm »

I did some searching of this board and really couldn't find what I was looking for.  I think the answer to this question will be very much along the lines of, "it is up to your personal/individual tastes," but I figure I will ask it anyway:

I've really to this point done very little with the Genre field of all my audio files (relatively small library at this point of about 4,000 songs).  I thought it was about time to get this field in order, to make it easier to classify my songs, do some smart lists that make sense, and use the "Radio" feature to its fullest.

Problem is, once I started to look at my library, I saw that right now I have 87 Genre's and coming up with a Genre scheme that made sense just wasn't going to happen very easily or quickly. 

So, I ask those of you out in Media Center "land," can you give me some examples of how you setup your audio file's Genre field?

Using plain old Rock, Pop, Country, Reggae, etc. doesn't seem to be the "Best" way to go, as that just leaves a few very large buckets that really won't do a good job of grouping songs, but going the other direction with 87 Genre's may not be it as well.

So, your thoughts, opinions, and examples of how you setup your library is greatly appreciated......

thanks
 
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glynor

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2007, 02:36:00 pm »

I think it comes down to personal preference, as you guessed.... I can only answer what I do.

I have semi-broad categories in the [Genre] tag.  These are limited strictly (by me, manually) to a manageable list:

Code: [Select]
Alternative
Ambient
Bluegrass
Blues
Celtic
Classic Rock
Classical
Comedy
Country
Disco
Drum and Bass
Electronic
Experimental
Folk
Hair Rock
Hard Rock
House
Indie
Jazz
New (for unclassified stuff I'm still working on)
Oldies
Other (for stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else)
Pop
Progressive
Psychedelic Rock
Punk
Reggae
Rock
Trance
Urban
World

Then, I have a user-created field called SubGenre which I use to further subclassify them.  So, for example, of my Reggae files I might have (and do):

Code: [Select]
Dancehall
Dub
Rocksteady

Whereas under Psychedelic Rock, I might have:

Code: [Select]
Art Rock
Acid Rock
Jam
Psychedelic Pop

When one particular SubGenre gets very big to the point where it dominates the rest of the Genre (or just becomes unwieldy) then I'll "elevate" that SubGenre to full-fledged Genre status.  If you look at my full Genre list, you can see where this happened in a few places.

Bluegrass was once a SubGenre filed under Country.  But, I have a lot of Bluegrass stuff so it eventually got it's own Genre.  Same goes for Trance, House, Ambient, and Drum and Bass which all evolved out of Electronic (the other stuff, like Industrial and Electronic Pop, not big enough to get their own top-level Genre are still there under Electronic).  Celtic and World eventually got separated from Folk.  So on and so forth.

I happen to use a list-style (keyword-like) SubGenre tag for mine, so something can be filed under two or more SubGenres.  I'm actually thinking about abandoning this method for a more regimented Genre-like arrangement for ease of navigation and tagging purposes though.  Also, a whole bunch of my files have no SubGenre at all.  Many do, but it is definitely at a lower priority than other things when I'm doing tagging.

For classification... I mostly just wing it.  I do sometimes look at where they are classified in Wikipedia (which lists it in the sidebar for most artists) and on Amazon or AMG.
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cwilliams222

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2007, 02:41:24 pm »

Glynor - 2 things:

1.  thanks for sharing your scheme and how you have implemented it.  Very helpful.

2.  What is "ambient" music for you?  Just curious, couldn't really figure that one out



Everyone else - would love to hear your thoughts or your actual genre scheme. 

thanks
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glynor

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2007, 02:44:32 pm »

I forgot to mention... To make my life and navigation more sane, I also have a very strict rule about classifying artists under more than one different Genre.  Essentially the rule goes like this:

Rule 1. Make every effort to classify all work by a particular artist confined to one Genre, even if this doesn't fit on a song-by-song or album-by-album basis.  If desired, use SubGenres to further subclassify a particular artist's different veins of work.

Rule 2. Abandon Rule 1 if, and only if, an artist goes through two or more (preferably only two) distinct and discreet phases where the work is substantially different and the dividing line is relatively clear.  An example is The Beatles.  I have their early work classified as Pop (they aren't quite in my definition of oldies, which is more for 50's era crooner, big-band stuff, elvis-era, and motown early-soul stuff), and starting with Rubber Soul they get moved into Psychedelic Rock.  The line at Rubber Soul is somewhat arbitrary, but firm, and makes some semblance of sense (at least in my head).
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glynor

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2007, 02:52:10 pm »

2.  What is "ambient" music for you?  Just curious, couldn't really figure that one out

Bunch of stuff, but mostly stuff they'd play on Echoes on NPR.  Here's some artists...

Code: [Select]
African Head Charge
Afro Celt Sound System (which might get moved to Trance one of these days)
Agelique Kidjo
Aphex Twin (another split example -- most of his stuff is Drum and Bass but a few particular albums get Ambient)
Banco de Gaia
Boards of Canada
Delerium
Enya
Golden Claw Musics
Miasma
Michael Stearns
Spacetime Continuum
woob
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KingSparta

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2007, 07:12:02 pm »

Quote
"Standard" for Genre??

I think most New genres, are dumb, and a waste of time

I think it is best to keep to the standard genre listing, for most people the non standard ones are meaningless
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MusicHawk

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2007, 08:34:55 pm »

I have a large library (50K+ songs and growing). I use Genre as broad categorization and for situations (iPod) where it's the only categorization available. Just a few major Genres similar to how CDs might be organized in a retail store: Rock, Pop, Country, R&B, Folk, Jazz, Showtunes, Classical, Easy Listening, etc.

But my main goal is to build smartlists for all types of situations, and for that I use my real system, keywords -- dozens of them. For me this is the most powerful library feature of MC -- the main reason I use it. Almost every song gets multiple keywords because the song can be considered from various perspectives.

What keywords to use? Think about how you'd like to RETRIEVE the song later, and give it the keywords that will let you grab it. In other words, what's your reason for building a database of your music?

My keywords define music types, but also moods, and eras. So I have keywords such as "1960s", "1980s", etc, and also "dinner" (music), "piano", "guitar", "surf", "summer", "tropical" (my wife's favorite), plus "rock", "jazz", "folk", "reggae", "tv", "movies", "disco" -- whatever seems to be a useful way to locate it and similar music later. It doesn't matter that the keywords are not all of one semantic, because their only purpose is to allow selection for smartlists. For a party the other night where conversation was more important than loud music, I selected everything with keyword "dinner" and got lots of complements on the wonderful background music.

Keywords can also handle special cases. In my library, all Beatles songs have "beatles" as a keyword, applied to every song that the Beatles performed, but also to other performances of songs the Beatles wrote. All songs from the many Motown performers (record company, not town) have keyword "motown".

I also use two other fields to provide the smartlist control I need: Performance for me is "v" vocal, "i" instrumental, "t" talk. Tempo is "b" ballad, "m" medium, "u" up-tempo/lively.

Because I was a radio station programmer, I use several other fields that might not be useful to anyone else, including Recording (Stereo, Mono, Rechanneled), Year, Chart Position. I use Rating to identify each song's "desirability to hear".

My final "trick" is really a workaround, necessary to handle so many songs (and again replicating radio station cataloging): I use Artist for lastname, firstname. Then I use views organized by Artist. I put the normal form of the artist name, whatever it might be, in Album Artist, so I don't lose the information.

The key to any database design is, focus on what you want to do later, when there's too much of it to plod through manually. Work backwards from your goal(s) and you'll see how you need to structure the data to get what you want.

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cwilliams222

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2007, 07:20:31 am »

I think most New genres, are dumb, and a waste of time

I think it is best to keep to the standard genre listing, for most people the non standard ones are meaningless


What would be your "standard genre listing?" (or the one you are referring to)
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cwilliams222

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2007, 07:23:20 am »

I have a large library (50K+ songs and growing). I use Genre as broad categorization and for situations (iPod) where it's the only categorization available. Just a few major Genres similar to how CDs might be organized in a retail store: Rock, Pop, Country, R&B, Folk, Jazz, Showtunes, Classical, Easy Listening, etc.

But my main goal is to build smartlists for all types of situations, and for that I use my real system, keywords -- dozens of them. For me this is the most powerful library feature of MC -- the main reason I use it. Almost every song gets multiple keywords because the song can be considered from various perspectives.

What keywords to use? Think about how you'd like to RETRIEVE the song later, and give it the keywords that will let you grab it. In other words, what's your reason for building a database of your music?

My keywords define music types, but also moods, and eras. So I have keywords such as "1960s", "1980s", etc, and also "dinner" (music), "piano", "guitar", "surf", "summer", "tropical" (my wife's favorite), plus "rock", "jazz", "folk", "reggae", "tv", "movies", "disco" -- whatever seems to be a useful way to locate it and similar music later. It doesn't matter that the keywords are not all of one semantic, because their only purpose is to allow selection for smartlists. For a party the other night where conversation was more important than loud music, I selected everything with keyword "dinner" and got lots of complements on the wonderful background music.

[snipped out some of the middle]

The key to any database design is, focus on what you want to do later, when there's too much of it to plod through manually. Work backwards from your goal(s) and you'll see how you need to structure the data to get what you want.

Great help here.  lots to think about.  Your post points me to really needing to think this through before starting, which is one reason I've put it off till now.  I'm just not 100% sure how much effort I want to put into my categorizations (whether it is just Genre, or other fields as well), and I really only want to do it once.



Anyone else out there - would also love ot hear other thoughts and suggestions on how to best use Genre to categorize your music library

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John Gateley

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2007, 08:02:12 am »

First - I've got a feeling, no matter what you choose, you'll do it more than once  :-\
It will take some trying before you find out what you like.

I've used a separate field with 5 values: Good, Bad, Young Punk, Old Fogey and blank.
I use a smartlist to choose a mix: lots of good, no bad, some young punk, a little old fogey, and lots of blank (uncategorized).
This worked great, but now that I am in a multi-person household, I have to rethink and come up with a way to do this for everyone.

j

cwilliams222

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2007, 09:32:51 am »

Any other thoughts or suggestions on this?

I've started going through my library and my clean-up so far has reduced the number of genre's to 47.  Still some junk in there, but I'm getting there.

Just what I've done so far has made me realize that I will most likely have to go through this whole process again really soon as I'm not really 100% happy with the classifications I've "picked."  Having some hard times putting certain artists into certain categories, since I was trying to not have a ton of different Genres, wanting to keep it somewhat manageable. 

For example, wasn't sure where to put The Beach Boys.  In the limited set of Genres I am trying to use (and I am up to 18 or 19), they just don't fit in anywhere.  I wouldn't want to put them in "Rock," they just don't seem to fit there, but "Oldies" just doesn't seem right either.  I haven't even gotten to my Beatles tracks yet, and I know that will be difficult as well.

Again, I think this will end up forcing me to go back and further define my Genres (or possibly doing something similar to what Glynor and MusicHawk did and have multiple fields/sub-genres to further classify my music), but first I need to get through this.

So, as I started off this post - any other thoughts or suggestions on using Genres to classify your music collections?  What are some tips you came across as you did your library, or what "scheme" did you use for Genres on your library?

thanks
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KingSparta

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2007, 11:05:05 am »

Quote
What would be your "standard genre listing?" (or the one you are referring to)

Not my list, but the original id3v1.1 genre list, that had a basic 79 genres in it, Nullsoft extended the original list to like 128 genres.

people felt it was too restrictive, and now we have a mess.

if you wish to know more about the ID3 Tagging

http://www.id3.org/
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cwilliams222

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2007, 11:29:00 am »

Not my list, but the original id3v1.1 genre list, that had a basic 79 genres in it, Nullsoft extended the original list to like 128 genres.

people felt it was too restrictive, and now we have a mess.

if you wish to know more about the ID3 Tagging

http://www.id3.org/

thanks - at the site now looking through it all.  Not sure I would want to try and "implement" 79 (or even worse, 128) at this time, but it is good to know there is a standard out there.
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KingSparta

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2007, 11:56:03 am »

Quote
good to know there is a standard out there.

Was, Sort of a standard

I just don't see a need for 9,807,270,4307,320 Genres

At some point it is pointless.

note that MrHaugen has or had a project to do something with Mood And Style

So if you used A Standard Set Of Genre, You Can Narrow Down The Music By Mood And Style etc... that maybe better than using Genre Alone.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=42293.0

If you have ever looked at CDDB's CD ID Controls you would see they have Primary Genres, And SubGenres. and that is another method people use.
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JONCAT

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2007, 02:49:01 pm »

SubGenre, which I have named Style, gets tiresome to stay on top of, but I do use it.

I have listed some of the sub-genres:

Genre:
Blues (Blues Rock, Boogie Woogie, Chicago, Electric Blues, Delta Blues, Harp Blues, Piano, etc.)
Classical (choral, Classical guitar, contemporary, film score, opera, orchestral, symphonic, vocal)
Electronica
Gospel (could probably go under Blues or Rhythm & Blues)
Musicals
New Age (could probably go under classical or alternative actually)
Rap
Theme Songs (Movie themes, TV Themes)
Pop
Oral Audio (audiobooks, lectures, interviews, etc.)
Rock (Rock & Roll, Metal, Heavy Metal, New Wave, Early Rock & Roll, etc.)
Jamaican (Ska & Blue Beat, Rock Steady, Reggae, Jamaican DJ, Dancehall & Rub-A-Dub, Dub & Instrumental, Grounation, Calypso)
Latin (Bossa Nova, Samba, etc.)
Jazz (Bop, Cool, Post Bop, Avante Garde, New Orleans etc.)
World
Rhythm & Blues (Neo-Soul, Soul, Funk, Motown, Zydeco, Crescent City, Jump Blues etc.)
Alternative
Folk
Country

so that's 17 if I change New Age & Gospel...works for me...keywords are great but that stuff takes some time; best to do when ripping not later....it piles up.
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gummbah

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2007, 03:03:49 am »

I have only very recently started using the genre tag and decided on a very simple and limeted number of genres that works well for me:

- Alternative rock (modern, alternative rock)
- Hard rock (everything that's too hard for mainstream)
- Soft rock (Poprock, slow rock, etc)
- Old rock (oldies, coming from the 70s and before and a some from the 80s)
- Electronic (everything from house to triphop, techno, etc)
- Classical (pretty straightforward I guess)
- Hip hop (including R&B)
- Pop (madonna like stuff)
- Various (e.g. for top100 discs etc.)
- World (inc reggea etc)

Cheers
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cwilliams222

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2007, 06:49:04 am »

just wanted to say thanks to both Doctor Cilantro and gummbah for sharing their thoughts.

I am leaning to using Genres and subgenres at some point, not now, as I just don't have the time to go through them all (not that I will get more time in the future and I know it will be more difficult then as my collection will be even larger).

Last night I finished going through my existing collection and putting them all in one of my genres.  I do not remember the number of genres I ended up with (I'm not where my library is today), but I can post my final genre collection in case anyone cares. 

As I said in an earlier post, I am already not terribly happy with how I've been using Genre, I think mine are a little to broad in some cases which has made me put some groups in genres I am not sure they belong in.  I will eventually address this, but for now, just want to enjoy my music.

Again, thanks to everyone.
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JONCAT

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2007, 08:28:07 am »

Genre is broad, as to try to tighten it up, you basically realize your transmuting the Genres into Subgenres. It's a no win situation really but I'm curious if the Radio feature can use subgenre, I don't know a lot about the new feature yet.

DC
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cwilliams222

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2007, 08:38:10 am »

Genre is broad, as to try to tighten it up, you basically realize your transmuting the Genres into Subgenres. It's a no win situation really but I'm curious if the Radio feature can use subgenre, I don't know a lot about the new feature yet.

DC

Good point on the radio.  If it could use that, it would make the radio more useful, and make it more worthwhile to use something like subgenre.

I agree about the "transmuting" into subgenres.  For some reason I'm just resisiting it at this time as too much work to undertake...just being a wuss I guess.
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JONCAT

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Re: Audio file tagging question - "Standard" for Genre??
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2007, 08:51:16 am »

Everybody does it different, every album is different, does an album really always fit into one genre?

And the contents of your collection will ultimate dictate how you main genres work out e.g. look how different my Jamaican scheme is - because I collect old 45s, OOP LPs, etc.

Just keep Genre broad, the hard work comes with sub-genre which almost feels like a waste of time; it's a lot of work to tag when I'd rather listen. Keywords seem to be a good solution because then you aren't bound to the actual material - you can just use "mellow" but maybe combine that with Genre and it is much more efficient.

A lot of my Latin stuff is groovy Bossa Nova but there are some loud alternative albums in there, so Genre choice of Latin ain't always workin' for a mellow vibe.

Shuffle vs. ablum cover search for something good to play is about all I can really do most of the time...

DC
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