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[bspachman]

As a part of my restoration of my media server setup (see elsewhere on this board for the story of the loss of 1.5TB of music), I've upgraded my HTPC hardware and OS to Vista.

So far, MC12 is performing like a champ with all of my normal files (APE, APL, MP3, WMA, M4A, M4P), but my edge cases of ac3 and PCM-DTS files are failing.

Under Windows 2000, I used a M-Audio Delta DiO 24/96 sound card, which had ASIO capabilities. MC was able to exploit those abilities to output DTS and DD bitstreams to my receiver for decoding.

Now, under Vista, I'm using the onboard optical SPDIF output on the Motherboard, but am having no luck getting anything but digital static. Here are the specs as I know them:

OS: Vista
Processor: 2.66GHz Core2 Duo
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-G33M-S2H
Onboard audio: Realtek ALC889A codec (High Definition Audio)
Audio drivers: (Most Current from Realtek - R177)
Receiver: Denon AVR-3802
Media Center 12.0.318
CCCP Codec Pack: version from 2007-07-22

In the Vista Sound Control Panel options for the digital output, testing DD and DTS gives positive results. I hear the test sound bouncing around the speakers and the receiver registers the appropriate DolbyDigital or DTS signal.

If I mess around with the options for ffdshow (included with CCCP), I can get my multi-channel ac3 files to play, but they are downmixed to 2-channel sound. DTS-encoded WAV files are a non-starter.

I tried installing the ASIO4All driver and changing MC's playback options to ASIO, but that killed all sound entirely.

I'm certainly no expert in the Windows audio chain, so any guesses, advice, or outright solutions will be greatly appreciated!

Best,
Brad

[jmone]

I've had a range of audio outputs (including the Realtek) under Vista and they all worked pushing out DTS/DD to my reciever for decoding.  I'm not at home to check the exact settings but make sure:
1) FFDSHOW has the DD/DTS settings to use S/PDIF not a decoder
2) From memory you can select one of two different S/PDIF modes (data & audio??) in the driver, you may have the wrong one if you are hearing the actual bit stream (sounds like morse code on crack)!

Nathan

[Jean-Max]

1) FFDSHOW has the DD/DTS settings to use S/PDIF not a decoder

Hello,

On my new Vaio Vista laptop ( FZ11Z) there is no physical toslink coax or opt audio output :
the numeric audio is output only inside the HDMI signal

This laptop, using J River MC, is HDMI connected to an Gefen 6x2 HDMI switch
This HDMI switch  has an toslink opt. audio output

Problem :
With MC, I have only stereo numeric audio, instead of Dolby, DTS or DD (present in original audio signal)

-> Is-it a special setup in FFDSHOW audio decoder, inside MC, to have DD etc.. inside HDMI output ?


Thanks for any help

Best regards from France

[jmone]

My current HTPC setup uses HDMI for both sound and video just fine.  You still set FFD to S/PDIF and in the HDMI/Sound card driver set sound to be output over HDMI.
Thanks
Nathan

[bspachman]

Okay, I've spent a couple more days experimenting and googling, and have gotten precisely nowhere...

The consensus seems to be that Vista and the new Intel HD Audio driver system are much better about providing bit-perfect playback & pass-through functions. However, I'm not having any luck. Being primarily a Macintosh user, I hope I'm over looking something basic. I believe there are 3-4 places to get things setup correctly. Can anyone check me?
--------------------
1) MC12: In the Options>Playback section. I have my "output mode" set to DirectSound and my "output mode settings" set to the "Primary Sound Driver" and "Default Channels".

I believe this is the only area that needs to be configured within MC. Outside of MC, I have the following:
--------------------
2) Windows Sound Control Panel: In the playback tab, both the "Speakers" and "Realtek Digital Output" show to be "working"

Selecting the "Realtek Digital Output" and going to the properties pages reveals the following...

2a) General Tab: Jack information shows "LR Rear Panel Optical Jack" & Device Usage "Enabled"

2b) Supported Formats: All boxes for "Encoded Formats" are checked. Highlighting "DTS Audio" or "Dolby Digital" and clicking the test button plays little bell tones on my speakers and the receiver shows "DTS" or "Dolby Digital" as appropriate! This appears to be a good thing! (All boxes for "Sample Rates" are also checked.)

2c) Levels: There is only a 'mute' button on this page.

2d) Enhancements: I have "Disable all sound effects" checked

2e) Advanced: The 'default format' is listed as "2 channel, 16 bit, 44100Hz (CD quality)" and the little bell tones play after clicking the test button. Both "Exclusive Mode" checkboxes are selected.
--------------------------
3) Realtek HD Audio Manager: I think this is GUI for the specific driver options...

3a) "Digital Output" 'Sound Effects' tab-- Main volume is set to the maximum and the pan is centered. No environmental effects are chosen, and 'loudness equalization' is unchecked.

3b) DTS: Connect tab--no options are available to select

3c) Default Format tab--Similar to above, listed as "16 bit, 44100Hz (CD quality)". The checkbox on this tab for "SPDIF-In to SPDIF-Out pass through mode" is UNchecked.

There are similar configuration pages for "Speakers", "Digital Input", and "Microphone", but I haven't played with those pages since I don't have any of those devices connected.
----------------------------------
4) ffdshow & the CCCP codec pack:

I left this for last because although I tried the suggestions above to either disable or SPDIF the settings on the codec page for DTS and AC3, those suggestions didn't work.

I decided to simplify matters and uninstall the entire pack. After a reboot, nothing changed (except that my m4a files are now played with QuickTime)
---------------------------------

So.....any further ideas? What's frustrating is that movies played with TheaterTek's DVD player seem to pass through perfectly.... I'm not sure what's going on with the music.

Best,
Brad

P.S. Yay! 500th Post!

[Wile E. One]

I think this article has been posted before.... http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html ... and to be honest, I'm not sure if it will help... but I thought it was good reading nonetheless.

[jmone]

I checked my setup and all I had to do was:
1) Leave the Realtek stuff as it was (never changed a thing)
2) In Vista Sound Mgr (from the sys tray) select Output device and make the "HDMI Device" as default and then double click on it, go into the properties and check the DTS and DD tabs
3) In FFD make sure DD / DTS are set to S/PDIF.

I even get 96/24 DTS output!

Thanks
Nathan

[bspachman]

Update:

Still not working in MC, but things are working with ZoomPlayer...so it must be possible....

I still have ffdshow installed, but currently have AC3 and DTS 'Disabled'

I installed AC3filter and activated its version of SPDIF passthrough.

The version of ZoomPlayer included with the CCCP codec pack now plays my DTS WAV files and my DD ac3 files.

MC still gives only digital static....

Now that I know it can be done, what else can I be looking at?

brad

[JimH]

Can you find out what DirectShow filters zoomplayer is using?  If so, you can try changing your settings in MC.

[bspachman]

I'm not very familiar with Zoomplayer, but was able to poke around enough to find it's filter properties menu. There is an option there to show the graph information for the file it is playing. Here are the results:

WAV files containing 44.1kHz DTS-CD & 48kHz DTS audio
File>Wave Parser>Zoom Player Audio Filter>AC3 Filter>Default DirectSound Device

AC3 files containing 48kHz AC3 (Dolby Digital) audio
File>AC3 Parser Filter>AC3 Filter>Zoom Player Audio Filter>Default DirectSound Device

I have checked my MC setup, and it is currently DirectSound.

If I go into the DirectShow playback settings, select AC3 as the filetype and check the AC3 Parser Filter and AC3 Filter, I still get nothing but digital static.

What would be my next step to investigate?
brad

[bspachman]

<bump>

[bspachman]

As far as I can tell, I have Windows set up correctly & I have my DirectShow filters setup correctly, since ZoomPlayer can play both ac3 files and 44.1 PCM-wrapped DTS files properly.

Going into MC's DirectShow setup for filetype AC3 and choosing the AC3 Parser Filter and the AC3 Filter does not improve my situation--still digital static.

I have no idea how to tweak MC so that it sends the audiostream to the correct filters....

Does anyone else?
brad

[Alex B]

WAV files containing 44.1kHz DTS-CD & 48kHz DTS audio
File>Wave Parser>Zoom Player Audio Filter>AC3 Filter>Default DirectSound Device

By default, the wav audio container format is decoded to PCM stream by MC's internal decoder. The installed DirectShow filters are not involved with this.

I don't have Vista on any of our PC's, but DTS wav playback should work similarly like with XP:

wav file > MC > bit perfect SW transport > soundcard > SPDIF > DTS receiver

Naturally all adjustments to the audio stream must be disabled in MC.

AFAIK, normally on XP the only way to achive this is to use ASIO (which bypasses the Windows kernel mixer) and a non-resampling sound card (like many of the "better" M-Audio, Terratec, EMU etc models).

I don't know if bit-perfect audio playback is possible with the new "Vista audio engine".

[jmone]

Hi Brad,
I'm not sure how to help - I've had all sound formats working perfectly "out of the box" using Vista on both a S/PDIF and HDMI setup.....Let me know what setting you would like me to check.
Thanks
Nathan

[bspachman]

Nathan,

Thanks for the offer...can we start with MC itself? The fact that I'm playing back AC3 files and PCM-wrapped DTS files with ZoomPlayer seems to indicate to me that the Windows/Realtek side of things is setup correctly, but I will try not to assume.

For MC's Options:
Startup--Both 'Optimize Volume for best Quality' and 'Set Volume to:' are UNchecked.

Playback--
Audio: Output mode: Direct Sound
Do not play silence: UNchecked
Switch tracks: Gapless
Seek: Smooth (fast)
Stop: Immediate

DSP & Output format: Everything unchecked (no DSP or Output effects enabled)

Output mode settings:
Output - Primary Sound Driver & Default Channels
Buffering - .75 seconds

In the Video section of the Playback options are the Direct Show Playback Settings:
'Use WMP engine' - UNchecked
'Aspect Ratio' - Source Aspect Ratio
'Audio Renderer' - 03. Default DirectSound Device
'Crop Edges' - UNchecked
'Use WMV Acceleration' - UNchecked

- All filetypes are selected in the DirectShow filters side of the options.
- All filetypes have their default filters set (in my case 'JRiver Bitrate Monitor Filter'--since I'm using one of the beta builds)

I don't know of any other MC settings that could be contributing to my problems--although I've stared at the options screen so much that I'm sure I'm blanking out on something

Thanks!
Brad

[jmone]

Hi Brad,
Tried these but it made no difference to me - my muxed MPEG/DTS files just played.  Can you post up one of these files and I'll see how it goes on my system?
Thanks
Nathan

[bspachman]

Okay, I've managed to upload a couple of test files to my google webpage. Don't judge the layout--I just use it for storage (and for moments like these)

For an AC3 file, check out: http://bspachman.googlepages.com/18-PlayoffMedley.ac3
For a DTS-WAV, check out: http://bspachman.googlepages.com/08-GnikNus.wav.zip

Thanks for checking....
Brad

[jmone]

Thanks - Got them 

Bad news, is i'm off to the Airport - away for work for a couple of days, but I can tellyou Playoff played find but Gnic was static on my NON HDMI PC (with just PC Speakers).  I will look when I get back!

Nathan

[bspachman]

Hmmmm....

Thanks for checking! I still can't get anything but static with either file. I'll be interested to investigate your DirectShow settings for AC3 files when you return...

In the meantime, does Yaobing have any filter advice for me?

brad

[bspachman]

I hate to keep bumping this up to the top, but I'm sure this issue will only become more prevalent as more folks adopt Vista...

Another thing I tried tonight was UNinstalling the Realtek audio drivers and just using the Intel HD Audio Class driver that comes with Vista. No improvement. Everything seems to work exactly the same.

Since then, I've done a bunch more research on the AVS forums and found a great (long) thread about audio processing in Vista:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=713073

The posts that seemed particularly informative were: #113, #132, #136, and #165.

In a nutshell, it seems that there is a new API (WASAPI) that will allow an application to put the sound hardware in 'Exclusive Mode'.

Is there any merit to implementing this in MC?
Brad

[jmone]

I'll be back at home tonight and will try to have a proper play with the files....but it is my anniversary so I may have better things to do 

[jmone]

FYI on the DTS-WAV file some info of use may be in the following thread http://ac3filter.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=304 , where it states "Had the same problem with PCM 48KHz output from HTPC (DTS-CD) in Vista. AC3filter couldn't engage DD encoder.Downgrading Realtek HD driver to ver. 1.63 fixed the problem  "

Edit - I also tried using WAV2DTS.EXE from http://hypercubemx.free.fr/html/dts_wav_filter.html but had no luck on the created DTS files (would not play in anyting I had installed & crashed showtime).  They also have a filter for DTS/WAV files but I got an error trying to register it in Vista.

Edit 2 - I've now had a quick try of both files on my HTPC using the Realtek Chip & S/PDIF and it was static on both.  The other PC uses the Sigmatel chipset decoding to Speakers directly and the AC3 file plays fine (the only filter selected is the JRiver Bitrate Monitor filter).  Both are Vista 32-Bit Ultimate.   So I'm "guessing" that the issues is going to be with support for the formats by the sound card / driver / filter more than the OS or MC12....

[jmone]

OK - I also got the AC3 file to play fine on my HTPC with the Reltek setup, but only from Showtime.  The filters used were the Nero File Source (Async), Nero Splitter, nero Audio Decoder 2, Nero Sound Processer, Default Direct Sound.   I've found on my muxed MPEG/DTS files that just adding the Nero Splitter works well so I tried that for the AV3 extension under Video filters but that did not help in MC so some q's for the JR people on if the filter selections under video apply (I note there is no way to right click and see what filters are being used when playing these audio files).

Thanks
Nathan

[bspachman]

Good testing!

The only other thing I discovered is that WMP11 is able to play the DD-encoded 5.1channel AC3 files as well as the PCM-wrapped DTS WAVs.

I'm not sure what other players I have on my system--but now I've got both ZoomPlayer and WMP11 working....although neither of them hold a candle in other respects to MC!

Still running with just the inbox Intel HD Audio drivers over SPDIF....

brad

[jmone]

Did you have to add a wav/dts filter?

[bspachman]

AFAIK, the only DS filters installed on my system are:

CCCP Pack (mostly Haali Media Splitter and ffdshow)
AC3 Filter
Whatever gets installed by default by Nero7
Default Vista filters....

I believe the one that is most important here is the AC3 Filter. It has options I've enabled for SPDIF pass-through, and looking at the filter chain for these surround-sound files using ZoomPlayer shows that AC3Filter seems to be the primary one used.

However, assigning it as the DS filter in MC doesn't seem to resolve my problem--unless I'm going about it wrong....

brad

[Alex B]

As I said before, the wave file does not go through the DirectShow filter chain because MC has its own wave decoder. MC is capable of bit perfect PCM playback so it is up to the OS level drivers and the sound card to provide unaltered SPDIF output.

Alternatively, the DTS wave files can be wrapped in Matroska containers for forcing them go through the DS filter chain.

As a test, I wrapped your sample files in Matroska containers with mkvmerge GUI. The files work work fine on XP. Would you mind trying them on Vista? I uploaded the files here: http://rapidshare.com/files/63354983/mkv.zip

The file extensions were first .mka, but because I wanted to access the DS filter list I changed the extensions to .mkv so that MC handles the files as video.

[jmone]

They both played flawlessly on both my Vista systems - one with rendering to two ch Speakers, the other outputing S/PDIF to an AV Receiver that decoded them as 5.1 DD and DTS respectivly.

[bspachman]

Alex,

Your Matroska-wrapped files played as expected on my Vista machine as well--Dolby Digital (5.1) on one and DTS on the other.

Looking at the filter chain shows:
<File>--Video monitor filter--audio monitor filter--color space converter--ac3filter--vmr9--default directsound device

The video/audio monitor filters and the color space converter were greyed out. In my mind, and because of my experiments with ZoomPlayer and WMP11, clearly the important filter is AC3Filter.

What can I do to make AC3 files use the filter I want? Picking AC3Filter in the DirectShow filter setup doesn't seem to work....

Also, knowing that MC can do bit-perfect, how can <url=http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11974201#post11974201>this</url> information help us? Can MC connect to a SPDIF pin?

What continues to frustrate me is that these clearly inferior programs are capable of something that feels like MC should be capable of...

brad

[Alex B]

bsbachman,

I really don't know if Vista is different from XP. On XP I can use ASIO driver for bypassing the kernel mixer and the direct SPDIF output is bit perfect. When I play DTS wave files an external DTS decoder works without problems. I have a Terratec sound card which uses the Envy24 chip.

I wonder what source and tools was used for creating the 48 kHz DTS wave file? Normally people get DTS wave files only by ripping 44.1 kHz DTS Audio CDs aka "5.1 Music Discs".

BTW, did you try the MKVmerge program? It is easy to use and as you probably noticed its attachment feature can be used for embedding cover art.



Yaobing,

As requested in the other thread, could you add a filter selection option for DirectShow audio files too?

You can experiment with with bsbachman's AC3 file and my Matroska "mka" samples (you can change the extension back to mka).

Also, I wonder why the wav option is included in the DS file type selection list if it does not disable the internal decoding and use DS instead.

However, since wav is normally used for standard PCM audio files I think it would be better to use some other container like Matroska for DTS audio files (if the intention is to play them through DS).

[bspachman]

Now that my iPod problems are (mostly) sorted out, I'm back on this kick again...

Can one of the DirectShow geniuses explain why when I select "AC3 Filter" as my preferred DS filter for AC3 files that it does not activate? I can't seem to find out which filter is even being used to play the AC3 files. Will the log files help?

I keep trying to force my DTS WAV files and AC3 files to go through AC3Filter, but no setup I try seems to work...

brad

[Alex B]

Bump

Yaobing,

As requested in the other thread, could you add a filter selection option for DirectShow audio files too?

You can experiment with with bsbachman's AC3 file and my Matroska "mka" samples (you can change the extension back to mka).

Also, I wonder why the wav option is included in the DS file type selection list if it does not disable the internal decoding and use DS instead.

However, since wav is normally used for standard PCM audio files I think it would be better to use some other container like Matroska for DTS audio files (if the intention is to play them through DS).

[Alex B]

Bump

[bspachman]

Alex, thanks for keeping an eye on this issue. I keep trying with new builds, but I'm still a little baffled....

I understand the (perhaps expected) behavior for WAV files to ignore the DS settings....

I don't understand why my files with AC3 extensions don't seem to honor the DS settings. If I define AC3 files to use the "AC3 filter" (see HERE), I still get nothing but digital noise from MC.

I think I understand what is 'supposed' to happen, but I don't know enough to troubleshoot why MC is not using my preferred DS filter...

brad

[JimH]

Brad,
Did you try the Winamp plug-in?  MC should be able to use it.  It just has to be in the plug-in directory.

Jim

[ThoBar]

Brad,
Did you try the Winamp plug-in?  MC should be able to use it.  It just has to be in the plug-in directory.

Jim

I found this too flaky to use when I tried it... it did work, but kept karking it.

[Alex B]

Bump

Yaobing,

As requested in the other thread, could you add a filter selection option for DirectShow audio files too?

You can experiment with with bsbachman's AC3 file and my Matroska "mka" samples (you can change the extension back to mka).

Also, I wonder why the wav option is included in the DS file type selection list if it does not disable the internal decoding and use DS instead.

However, since wav is normally used for standard PCM audio files I think it would be better to use some other container like Matroska for DTS audio files (if the intention is to play them through DS).

[Alex B]

Bump

Yaobing,

As requested in the other thread, could you add a filter selection option for DirectShow audio files too?

You can experiment with with bsbachman's AC3 file and my Matroska "mka" samples (you can change the extension back to mka).

Also, I wonder why the wav option is included in the DS file type selection list if it does not disable the internal decoding and use DS instead.

However, since wav is normally used for standard PCM audio files I think it would be better to use some other container like Matroska for DTS audio files (if the intention is to play them through DS).

[Yaobing]

Yes sir! I will add it.