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[enigman]

I've been trying for the past 4 days to get my new iPod classic working with media center.  So far it has been nothing but frustration - after the latest attempt it looks like I'm going to have to start completely from scratch   

I initially had a bunch of problems syncing my whole library to the iPod - the upload process would crash about halfway through, and it looked like MC wasn't saving the cache progress (my library is 90% FLAC).  OK, I say, I'll build the cache first, then try to transfer everything.

Building the cache separately also was a major headache, with one corrupt file bogging down the whole process.  But it finished "successfully" in the end.

I say "successfully", because when I went to transfer songs to the iPod, MC still had to convert (reconvert?) about 20-30% of the songs in my library.

I came back to the machine to find the sync appeared to have completed.  Yay!  Except that once I eject the iPod it reports zero songs.  Doh!  What's worse, MEDIA CENTER DELETED THE ENTIRE CACHE.  Yup, all 45GB worth of shiny new MP3 files.  Gone.  Gotta start the whole thing over.

Right now I'm trying to sync about 50 albums at a time.  This is an annoying manual process, and I'm still not sure if it's going to work.

I totally understand the difficulty in getting a device like the iPod to work with MC, especially given that Apple (we hate our customers) tried to lock everything down.  Bugs and hiccups will occur, I know that. 

HOWEVER, I see two major design flaws in how MC handles the iPod.

1.  Why would MC delete the handheld cache?  MC should be able to link multiple files to the same record in the database, something I initially suggested over 3 years ago:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=18852.msg130614#msg130614

Alternatively, MC could add in support for Matroska and have multiple file types embedded that way, something I suggested here:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=31857.msg231240#msg231240

Perhaps these features could be part of MC 13?  With a growing trend towards media being used on multiple (and often incompatible) devices, the ability to store media in multiple formats for multiple uses is pretty important.  One thing is clear, the current cache system is at best a hack.  There's absolutely no reason that an app should delete nearly 50GB worth of perfectly good data.  In addition, from everything that I've read, the cache doesn't handle tag updates at all - reconvert the entire audio file just to change a few bytes of metadata?

2.  The iPod sync needs some sort of checkpoint process.  If the sync process is unreliable (which it appears to be, as I've seen from other posts), there really needs to be an option to "lock in" progress as the sync is taking place.  MC should batch process files to the iPod in smaller chunks - say 1-5 GB - transfer files and then update the library.  Smaller transfers appear to be more reliable than doing the whole thing at once, and if something goes wrong, at least most of the progress can be saved rather than the current situation where I have an iPod with 40 GB worth of files on it that aren't usable because MC never got around to the database update stage.

[JimH]

What build are you using?  Please copy your system info from MC Help and paste it here.

I notice that you mentioned a corrupt FLAC file.  This may have been causing the crash.  Make sure you're using the latest version of MC and you're not installing any special FLAC plug-ins -- these are now included.

[enigman]

I'm using build 404.  I think the corrupt FLAC file may have been the cause of some of the earlier headaches with manually building the cache - see my earlier post here:

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=44607.0

However, I don't think that's the issue now.  It seemed to be erroring out during the actual transfer of the files and not during the encoding (although it was strange that it still wanted to reencode a number of the files) - I've got the full log file this time if that would help to isolate the problem.

The biggest weakness that I see is that MC is deleting the cache.  I ran a few tests, and it seems to be deleting the *entire* cache once the iPod sync completes - whether the sync was successful or not, and regardless of whether the files in the cache were actually part of that actual sync - MC just wipes out the entire thing.  Is this a bug or a feature?  It seems to defeat the entire purpose of having a cache in the first place, especially given that we are a multi-device household (2 iPods, 2 flash-based non iPods), and I want to keep the cache around for future syncs.  Right now I think I'm going to have to store a backup of the cache in a separate directory so I can manually restore it after MC blows it away each time.

If this could be fixed, then it wouldn't matter as much if the iPod sync occasionally failed, since the most time consuming process is the encoding (at least on my machine).  Ideally the iPod sync should be more robust, but the cache is the biggest concern.  Any plans to improve how this is handled in MC 13?

Thanks, and sorry for the frustration.

[JimH]

No problem.  Thanks.  Check the options you have set under Tools/Options/Handhelds/Conversion/Conversion Cache.

Disk space?

[enigman]

The box is unchecked and set to 0 MB.

Finally got a successful sync to the iPod using the following workaround:

 - Library Tools > Convert format (reduced the time by finding an old folder of MP3 files on my hard drive from some previous conversion effort and manually selected the new ones to encode)
 - Create New Library, import converted MP3s
 - Library Tools > Rename files from properties (to match structure of cache)
 - Copy encoded MP3 files to cache directory
 - Switch back to original library
 - Sync handheld, which pulls from "fake" cache that I manually copied.

I'd recommend trying this for anyone who is having sync issues - it greatly reduces the time the iPod is syncing (less than two hours in my case for about 8k songs @ 192kbps) since it is only transferring files and not pausing to encode.

Once again, however, MC kills all the files in the cache directory as soon as it is done syncing.  Thankfully this time I have a backup...

[DarkPenguin]

I'm not seeing this.

I have "enable caching of converted files" checked.  I have a cache directory set.  I have the default [artist]\[album] rule set.  I have "Use a separate cache for each handheld" unchecked.  "Limit cache size to: 0MBs" is unchecked.

If you try this with a small number of files what does it do?

[JimH]

Do you have enough disk space?

[enigman]

Got plenty of disk space - about 30GB above and beyond what I need for the cache.  The cache works fine when I transfer, but for some reason gets killed whenever the sync completes.

I ran a test earlier and just manually transferred a single album to the iPod.  Again, MC wiped out the entire cache after the transfer completed.  It seems to be blowing away the entire cache as soon as a sync completes, regardless of whether the cache is 100 MB or 45,000 MB.

[JimH]

I wonder if we're missing a piece of information.

Is the library you're converting from local?  Or is it on a USB drive or network drive or are you using Library Server?

Anything else unusual?

[DarkPenguin]

Got plenty of disk space - about 30GB above and beyond what I need for the cache.  The cache works fine when I transfer, but for some reason gets killed whenever the sync completes.

I ran a test earlier and just manually transferred a single album to the iPod.  Again, MC wiped out the entire cache after the transfer completed.  It seems to be blowing away the entire cache as soon as a sync completes, regardless of whether the cache is 100 MB or 45,000 MB.

What are your cache settings?

[ScottCocoaBeach]

I also have a FLAC library - what I do is create playlists of songs - I do mine by years - then I synch a list - check the ipod and then run the next one.  Rebooting inbetween is a good idea.  Just do your synchs by playlist until you get everything loaded and don't try to do the whole libary at once.

Also - stay out of itunes - I hope there is a solution at some point but for me synching anything from itunes blows everything up and I have to re-initialize and restart.

good luck.

[Osho]

In addition, from everything that I've read, the cache doesn't handle tag updates at all - reconvert the entire audio file just to change a few bytes of metadata?

2.  The iPod sync needs some sort of checkpoint process.  If the sync process is unreliable (which it appears to be, as I've seen from other posts), there really needs to be an option to "lock in" progress as the sync is taking place.  MC should batch process files to the iPod in smaller chunks - say 1-5 GB - transfer files and then update the library.  Smaller transfers appear to be more reliable than doing the whole thing at once, and if something goes wrong, at least most of the progress can be saved rather than the current situation where I have an iPod with 40 GB worth of files on it that aren't usable because MC never got around to the database update stage.

I agree with both these points. Current way of not updating tags in cache is pretty naive IMHO.

I also agree with you on #2. I currently have 160GB iPod which is filled with 140GB of music files. I have had to reinitialize iPod several times in last few weeks just because MC12 crashed in the middle of a sync. Then there are many GB of data on the iPod that just don't appear anywhere in MC12.

Osho

[enigman]

Everything about my install should be fairly plain jane - library is on a local disk, plenty of space, I think my cache settings are basically normal.  I've got screen shots of my cache settings just in case I'm doing something really stupid - want me to email them to you?

Thanks again!

[JimH]

I've got screen shots of my cache settings just in case I'm doing something really stupid - want me to email them to you?

Just post as text here.  Thanks.

[DarkPenguin]

Or put them up on Pix01 using Share to Web.

[enigman]

OK, here goes (hopefully I'm not missing something obvious).  I've got a log file too if that would help figure out why it's killing the cache.

Since starting from a fully (manually) built cache, I haven't had any issues with the iPod sync, other than the cache being deleted each time.

Auto-eject: None
Auto-sync on connect: NO
Delete from handheld any files not in sync list: NO
Enable album artwork support if possible: YES
Get play stats from handheld on connect: YES

Conversion:
Simultaneous conversions: 2
  Audio:
Mode: convert unsupported formats
Encoder: MP3 encoder
Cover Art: No change
  Image:
No conversion
  Video:
No conversion

Converted Files Cache
Enable caching of converted files: YES
Cache Directory: E:\Music Cache\  (note, standard music is stored under E:\Music, Library is on C: - both are local internal drives)
Directory Rule: \[Album]\
Use a separate cache for each handheld: NO
Limit cache Size to: 0MB: NO

[DarkPenguin]

Send it to t o m AT jriver D0T com

[enigman]

Well, I just tried the latest build, and the blowing up the cache problem appears to have fixed itself 

Thanks!