Topic: WASAPI output in Vista and above (Read 35377 times)

KingDoughnut · « **on:** September 29, 2008, 07:30:12 pm »

[Edit by JimH -- WASAPI support was added to MC13 at about build 100. It provides bit-perfect output to a sound device, and is the equivalent of ASIO on XP. Please see the Audiophile Info topic on our wiki (link above) for more.]

With more and more people moving to Vista and using their computers to play real high resolution audio from good HighFi gear there are only 2 ways to get digital out to a DAC.....ASIO and Kernel streaming. But with WASAPI neither are needed, it sounds great and it works....that is with other players that support it....Foobar and XMplayer come to mind. Is there any plans for WASAPI to be available for JRiver??

Matt · « **Reply #1 on:** September 30, 2008, 05:31:11 pm »

ASIO has been our preferred method for delivering a bit-perfect stream.

However, the WASAPI system looks pretty simple so we might consider adding support in Media Center 13. Could you explain a little more about why you think it's better than ASIO?

Thanks.

Frobozz · « **Reply #2 on:** September 30, 2008, 08:08:25 pm »

I'd like to see WASAPI support as well. Not all audio interfaces have good ASIO drivers (consumer based interfaces in particular) or work well when using ASIO4ALL. Even my M-Audio FW410 professional audio interface has occasional glitches when using ASIO even though I've tweaked the buffer settings.

I haven't tried WASAPI yet (I'd have to try it with Foobar). But if it has the possibility of having better device support and reliable performance then it would be worthwhile and give people a reason to upgrade to MC13.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #3 on:** September 30, 2008, 08:35:17 pm »

Quote from: Matt on September 30, 2008, 05:31:11 pm

ASIO has been our preferred method for delivering a bit-perfect stream.

However, the WASAPI system looks pretty simple so we might consider adding support in Media Center 13. Could you explain a little more about why you think it's better than ASIO?

Thanks.

I understand ASIO has been the preferred method, but this was before WASAPI even existed. WASAPI was created specifically for Windows as a method to get bit perfect data out via bypassing any internal mixers....ie no drivers to worry about etc.

I can't say that its better because that in itself is subjective in terms of listening...and I am not a code or computer expert so I can't speak to the technical merits of ASIO vs. WASAPI. But, having compared WASAPI to ASIO using pretty good equipment....professional DAC by Lavry Engineering, professional monitors by Dynaudio and top notch balanced IC's I can say subjectively that WASAPI offers very good sound that is comparable or if not better than most ASIO drivers.

Most people use ASIO4ALL, which is not true ASIO but a wrapper. Other than that we have soundcards with ASIO drivers and/or USB interfaces with ASIO drivers 99.9% of soundcards will never sound as good as a good DAC and the choices for USB out devices going to DAC's are very limited...M-Audio Transit, HagmanUSB, CryoParts PopPulse would be your most common hardware methods. Hagman and the PopPulse both use windows drivers which are inferior and the Transit uses a Beta driver. Still in any case we have to go through drivers, WASAPI means no drivers, bit perfect audio digital out.

Well, thats my case....only thing other than that I can ad is.....Please.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #4 on:** September 30, 2008, 08:41:16 pm »

Quote from: Frobozz on September 30, 2008, 08:08:25 pm

I'd like to see WASAPI support as well. Not all audio interfaces have good ASIO drivers (consumer based interfaces in particular) or work well when using ASIO4ALL. Even my M-Audio FW410 professional audio interface has occasional glitches when using ASIO even though I've tweaked the buffer settings.

I haven't tried WASAPI yet (I'd have to try it with Foobar). But if it has the possibility of having better device support and reliable performance then it would be worthwhile and give people a reason to upgrade to MC13.

If you try WASAPI make sure you send your signal out via SPDIF, it does not work going out on top of ASIO. It should be direct digital out, you may want to adjust your buffer as well.

Frobozz · « **Reply #5 on:** October 01, 2008, 02:05:36 am »

Quote from: KingDoughnut on September 30, 2008, 08:41:16 pm

If you try WASAPI make sure you send your signal out via SPDIF, it does not work going out on top of ASIO. It should be direct digital out, you may want to adjust your buffer as well.

I have it working, as far as I can tell, with my M-Audio FW410. I don't have an external DAC to be able to make use of the SPDIF out so I'm using the internal DAC of the FW410. It seems to be working. I don't have the tools to be able to verify bit perfectness though.

The FW410 has a WDM driver as well as an ASIO driver. I assume it's using the WDM driver to make the WASAPI output work.

Sound is good based on casual listening and I haven't heard any dropouts, clicks, or pops. I even reduced the buffer sizes and it's still all good. The exclusive mode is also working. System sounds and other sounds are all muted while Foobar is playing. Close Foobar and the system sounds work again.

If this is WASAPI, I like it.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #6 on:** October 01, 2008, 07:09:09 am »

FYI, The industry [professional recording] is slowly beginning to use WASAPI.....Cakewalk now has WASAPI support for its SONAR products. I'm sure others will follow.

Matt · « **Reply #7 on:** October 01, 2008, 03:00:53 pm »

WASAPI support will be available in Media Center 13 preview #3.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #8 on:** October 01, 2008, 03:16:02 pm »

Thank You!

JimH · « **Reply #9 on:** October 07, 2008, 11:04:31 am »

It's here:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=48562.0

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #10 on:** October 08, 2008, 10:14:02 am »

Thanks again.....It sounds GREAT.

I do have a technical question though. I use a USB device to send my signal to a DAC. I usually use ASIO to send music to my DAC, when I use WASAPI does that mean I am no longer using ASIO? The device is the M-Audio Transit, I'm asking because I don't know if the driver for the device is an ASIO driver or just a driver to make the device function.

Matt · « **Reply #11 on:** October 08, 2008, 10:18:56 am »

Quote from: KingDoughnut on October 08, 2008, 10:14:02 am

when I use WASAPI does that mean I am no longer using ASIO

Yes. WASAPI and ASIO are different methods for talking to the sound card.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #12 on:** October 08, 2008, 11:28:22 am »

Quote from: Matt on October 08, 2008, 10:18:56 am

Yes. WASAPI and ASIO are different methods for talking to the sound card.

Ahhhhh, Ok I thought as much...

Well it sounds great, maybe because WASAPI is native to Windows.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2008, 03:34:54 pm »

As we know, SOME programs and features don't aways work flawlessy. This is one of those because I am getting static while I use WASAPI...how would be glad to Beta test this problem to narrow down the cause. Use certain files, give all OS parameters, etc. I want it to work perfectly and am willing to help in any way I can to make that happen

Matt · « **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2008, 04:06:50 pm »

Please describe the sound in a bit more detail.

Static over the top of the music would be a hardware issue. Check your volumes and DSPs if the S/N ratio is bad.

neFAST · « **Reply #15 on:** October 08, 2008, 04:30:07 pm »

Excuse my dumb question. But will WASAPI work with every single soundcards?

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #16 on:** October 08, 2008, 05:06:45 pm »

Quote from: Matt on October 08, 2008, 04:06:50 pm

Please describe the sound in a bit more detail.

Static over the top of the music would be a hardware issue. Check your volumes and DSPs if the S/N ratio is bad.

I would say that the static takes the places of the music in the sense that it has the same beat, pitch etc. Its almost like its a timing issue, because it phases in and out...usually with cpu usage. I can provide any other details you like to see if you can reproduce. In fact I will try to record the sound.

Upon further testing it seems that the static comes in at about the 3min mark...as if due to some sort of propagation. Could this be a buffer related issue?

-or-

Could this be due to the fact that the signal is being sent to a USB device? I say this because when I use this on a laptop via optical out there are no problems.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #17 on:** October 10, 2008, 09:03:27 am »

Quote from: neFAST on October 08, 2008, 04:30:07 pm

Excuse my dumb question. But will WASAPI work with every single soundcards?

It should work as long as you have Vista. XP does not use WASAPI.

mrcorbo · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2008, 07:33:12 pm »

I recently upgraded to one of the new ATI video cards that has the ability to output multichannel PCM HDMI audio at up to 192kHz to a connected receiver. In order to take advantage of this I have my PC set up to output 6 channels @192kHz. An unfortunate side effect of this is that when playing back media with 2 channel audio the PC still sends all 6 channels to the receiver (with the remaining 4 channels silent) and i am unable to use DPLII, DTS:Neo and the like on my receiver to upmix the audio to 5.1.

The exception to this is when using foobar with the WASAPI plugin. This is able to take exclusive control of the audio device and set it to 2 channels @ 44kHz output.

I was hoping that the WASAPI output in MC13 would work similarly, but when I try to play a file it complains that the "mixing format of my hardware doesn't support the current output format" (which is set to source bitrate, depth and number of channels) and prompts me to set the output format to 6 channels @ 192kHz.

Is this working as intended or is the plan to make the WASAPI output work similarly to how it works in foobar?

Thanks.

Matt · « **Reply #19 on:** October 14, 2008, 11:44:09 am »

We didn't add exclusive playback mode to the WASAPI plugin, but will consider doing so if there's a demand.

Another approach would be to let MC's DSP Studio upmix to 5.1 sound.

mrcorbo · « **Reply #20 on:** October 14, 2008, 01:25:54 pm »

Understood, thank you for the response.

I think this feature would be well received by the HTPC community who have bought these cards (and others with similar functionality) to enable full-resolution BR audio playback. I know in my case having this capability would make MC my primary media playback application where as now it's been mostly relegated to tagging/library maintenance duties. As far as I am aware, this would also make MC unique among video playback applications.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #21 on:** October 14, 2008, 02:21:48 pm »

Quote from: Matt on October 14, 2008, 11:44:09 am

We didn't add exclusive playback mode to the WASAPI plugin, but will consider doing so if there's a demand.

Another approach would be to let MC's DSP Studio upmix to 5.1 sound.

I think WASAPI without exclusive mode support reduces its usefulness. WASAPI like ASIO has the benefit to bypass Windows internal mixers....but WASAPI will only do this in exclusive mode.

Matt · « **Reply #22 on:** October 14, 2008, 04:36:22 pm »

Next preview will add an option to use exclusive playback mode for WASAPI. We'll enable it by default.

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #23 on:** October 14, 2008, 04:46:44 pm »

Quote from: Matt on October 14, 2008, 04:36:22 pm

Next preview will add an option to use exclusive playback mode for WASAPI. We'll enable it by default.

Thanks Matt!

mrcorbo · « **Reply #24 on:** October 14, 2008, 09:31:01 pm »

That's great news. Thanks!

MrHaugen · « **Reply #25 on:** October 15, 2008, 06:48:39 am »

I got a HDA Xplosion 7.1 card that does upmix stereo sources to 5.1 and 7.1 to optical output. I could only find Creative and HDA cards with this support.

This WASAPI support will allow more cards to use this function? Upmixing for all music and video sources?
It's also a good thing for people who have super high end recievers/amps and pre amps? To avoid any potentialy bad processing from windows or it's apps or decoders?

KingDoughnut · « **Reply #26 on:** October 17, 2008, 10:07:34 am »

Quote from: MrHaugen on October 15, 2008, 06:48:39 am

I got a HDA Xplosion 7.1 card that does upmix stereo sources to 5.1 and 7.1 output from an optical input. I could only find Creative and HDA cards with this support.

This WASAPI support will allow more cards to use this function? Upmixing for all music and video sources?
It's also a good thing for people who have super high end recievers/amps and pre amps? To avoid any potentialy bad processing from windows or it's apps or decoders?

Would a sound card or other hardware audio device need to specifically have WASAPI support much like cards etc. have ASIO support?

I have read about people having issues with WASAPI having static and I also have had issues with WASAPI and static while playing music. I have tried to isolate the cause but have only been able to isolate it to cpu usage [spikes], where as if I would open a program or try to surf while using WASAPI and the cpu would spike, then static would appear.

This only happens when WASAPI is used with spdif out, I have never tried it with internal speakers or analog out.

mrcorbo · « **Reply #27 on:** October 23, 2008, 07:12:26 pm »

I got a chance to test the new exclusive mode and I'm happy to report that it is working as I hoped it would. I tried playing back various types of audio with both internal and DirectShow playback and each time my receiver was locked in at the number of channels and bitrate of the source.

The only issue I encountered (and reported in the bug thread) was when stopping playback the last buffered audio will, if the buffer is small enough, continue to play in a loop. Raising the buffer size to 1 sec seems to prevent the looping, though a sound will still play after you stop playback.

This is a great feature! Thanks for implementing it.

Now I'm off to go bug you for another....

Mr ChriZ · « **Reply #28 on:** October 26, 2008, 07:31:50 am »

Not a big issue to me as I'm only playing but when using WASAPI, and it seems to mute other sound.
In particular playing Youtube videos for example no sound comes out until I stop the currently playing track.
Is this just how it works?

hooli · « **Reply #29 on:** October 26, 2008, 07:48:36 am »

I noticed that also.

Alex B · « **Reply #30 on:** October 26, 2008, 07:54:36 am »

Quote from: Mr ChriZ on October 26, 2008, 07:31:50 am

Not a big issue to me as I'm only playing but when using WASAPI, and it seems to mute other sound.
In particular playing Youtube videos for example no sound comes out until I stop the currently playing track.
Is this just how it works?

I'd say that's how it works.

I don't have Vista here, but from what I have read I assume the exlusive WASAPI mode is literally exclusive, similarly like ASIO. When ASIO is used on XP it provides a direct path to the sound device and reservers it completely. No other audio signals can get through.

Frobozz · « **Reply #31 on:** October 27, 2008, 01:19:17 pm »

That is the way that exclusive mode WASAPI works. Exclusive mode means that inputs from other sources (programs) are muted. Only the sounds from MC will play.

Might make sense to put "WASAPI exclusive mode" in the UI so people will know that people will know that WASAPI is taking exclusive use of the audio interface.

mrcorbo · « **Reply #32 on:** October 28, 2008, 11:34:48 pm »

Quote from: Frobozz on October 27, 2008, 01:19:17 pm

Might make sense to put "WASAPI exclusive mode" in the UI so people will know that people will know that WASAPI is taking exclusive use of the audio interface.

Exclusive mode is actually an option selectable by a checkbox under Output mode settings. It's checked by default, though.

Frobozz · « **Reply #33 on:** October 29, 2008, 08:19:54 am »

Quote from: mrcorbo on October 28, 2008, 11:34:48 pm

Exclusive mode is actually an option selectable by a checkbox under Output mode settings. It's checked by default, though.

Cool. I had not yet tried the latest build. The previous build just had a selection for WASAPI with no option for selecting exclusive mode.

bspachman · « **Reply #34 on:** October 29, 2008, 09:01:29 pm »

Anyone having problems with other software while using WASAPI in exclusive mode?

I am specifically having issues with Rogue Amoeba's Airfoil program, which streams audio from applications to Apple's Airport Express 802.11 base stations. Things worked fine with MC12...

I configured Airfoil to launch MC13, but as soon as I press the 'play' button in MC13, Airfoil crashes. The funny thing is that MC continues to play to the remote speakers--it just doesn't play on the local computer.

I have a support ticket in with Rogue Amoeba, but don't know enough about WASAPI to know if that is part of the problem...

brad

Frobozz · « **Reply #35 on:** October 30, 2008, 11:12:48 am »

Quote from: bspachman on October 29, 2008, 09:01:29 pm

Anyone having problems with other software while using WASAPI in exclusive mode

For troubleshooting I'd give Foobar2000 a try with the WASAPI support plugin and see if you get the same behavior.

jmone · « **Reply #36 on:** October 31, 2008, 10:24:59 pm »

Thanks for the addition this works perfectly for my Audio files on Vista Ultimate 32-Bit SP-1 with HDMI LPCM output to an AVR!

Any chance this Audio Renderer option will be made available for DirectShow playback (eg Video / TV)?

Nathan

jmone · « **Reply #37 on:** November 01, 2008, 03:11:03 pm »

There is a thread on AVS suggesting that there is a DS WASAPI renderer but I can not find it......is it true?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14986868&posted=1#post14986868

JimH · « **Reply #38 on:** February 02, 2009, 01:11:58 pm »

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Author Topic: WASAPI output in Vista and above (Read 35377 times)

KingDoughnut

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KingDoughnut

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KingDoughnut

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