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[jmone]

OK - I know that many will argue that the dvr-ms format is "proprietary" but really the JRiver format is even more so.  Most DTV progs let you select your format for recording DTV to either dvr-ms or mpeg from which they can be manipulated by heaps of 3rd party tools.  I had no problems editing and even sharing a TV recording prior to MC13 but what on earth is the JRiver format and how can one edit / and play outside of MC?  Please convine me this is not a backward step!

Yours in scepticism
Nathan

[Matt]

OK - I know that many will argue that the dvr-ms format is "proprietary" but really the JRiver format is even more so.  Most DTV progs let you select your format for recording DTV to either dvr-ms or mpeg from which they can be manipulated by heaps of 3rd party tools.  I had no problems editing and even sharing a TV recording prior to MC13 but what on earth is the JRiver format and how can one edit / and play outside of MC?  Please convine me this is not a backward step!

Yours in scepticism
Nathan

We are merging recording and time-shifting.  This way, you can keep part of what you've been watching or watch what you're recording.

The dvr-ms format has limitations that are problematic, like only doing MPEG-2 (so it won't work for analog).  It's also a closed system, so cross-platform and extensibility are tough.

The JRiver format should be playable in other applications since we provide Directshow filters.

We may make a container format (like dvr-ms) to pool multiple files into a single container, but we're not certain it's necessary.  Personally I don't really care if it stores the files using roman numerals as long as it works nicely.

We're happy to discuss this if you disagree.

[jmone]

I absolutely agree (and have argued for ages) that there be one stream that is used for both TS and Recording..…but I’m not sold on using home grown formats option as:

1) What’s wrong with the existing available CODECS (or does the world really need another CODEC to do the same thing).  The other TV Software vendors seem to make do with ts / dvr-ms / mpeg as isn’t DVB in MPEG anyway (& ? ? ? for AVI – I don’t use it but I’ve seen mpeg and avi flavours out there).

2) How do you distribute a recording? (or Mother-in-law wants me to “tape” a show).  Don’t laugh, my cousin was being interviewed on TV (Aust Rocket Scientist working on Mars Phoenix Project) and she wanted me to “tape” it so she could watch it on her Standalone DVD Players…..I said “No Can Do” so she contacted the TV Station and they sent her a nice standard DVD - dead simple with DVR-MS or MPG

3) How do I edit my recordings?  OK I’ve recorded a Music Video Prog and now want to extract and save as individual recordings the Music Video clips I like – dead simple with DVR-MS or MPG

4) Application Compatibility and Format Longevity.  Who knows what platforms we will be using in the next few years but I bet that I’ll be able to play my DVR-MS or MPG files but not so the home grown format ones.

5) Transcoding Degradation.   I really dislike transcoding where you don’t have to – the DTV stream is only going to look and sound worse trascoding to another format regarless of how “good” the process is.

My 2cents worth – I agree that combining the TS (was JRiver format) and Recoding (was DVR-MS) was the way to go but I think that one of the MPG flavours should have been used.
Nathan

[JimH]

For now, this is the direction we're headed.  Reasons? 

The mpg license folks aren't much fun.  Patents are landmines.  The codec is ours.  It's faster.  We can whack it into little pieces and stream them -- this works well with caching services like Akamai and Level 3.

Eventually, we can probably add DVD writing or conversion to a format of your choosing. 

[jmone]

For now, this is the direction we're headed.  Reasons? 

The mpg license folks aren't much fun.  Patents are landmines.  The codec is ours.  It's faster.  We can whack it into little pieces and stream them -- this works well with caching services like Akamai and Level 3.

Eventually, we can probably add DVD writing or conversion to a format of your choosing. 

Sure and "Beta" was better too yet the popular one won....So for "now" a JRiver ---> MPEG file converter option would be good even if it was a standalone prog that could be used on the few streams that need to be coverted for what ever reason.  Is there already one or a third party one?

Thanks
Nathan

[JimH]

ffmpeg is the basis of most converters.  MC will download it if you don't have it.  This happens when you try to put unsupported video files on a PSP or iPod.  MC gets ffmpeg and uses it to convert video.

I'm not sure whether it works with TV files yet.

This even works with my RAZR and should work with other cell phones.

[jmone]

Mmm I've got ffmpeg if needed but I notice that when playing these DVB T Recoding files they use the MS MPEG Filter to playback on my HTPC....so I'm guessing that to push the file out to a MPG container you don't need to transcode but just a remuxer to join/mux the J River files into the correct container - is this correct?  (if so then you can remove my 5) Transcoding Degradation argument earlier).

Thanks
Nathan

[ThoBar]

We may make a container format (like dvr-ms) to pool multiple files into a single container, but we're not certain it's necessary.  Personally I don't really care if it stores the files using roman numerals as long as it works nicely.

Is this suggestion similar to the capabilites of the Matroska container? If so, why not use that? My understanding is it's designed to be as flexible as possible, allowing multiple files, streaming etc. The container also seems to be gaining momentum (slowly but surely). Just a thought.

Also, given you're going down the road of a new format - especially if you're thinking cross-platform, is it worth releasing the codec into the wild? i.e. open-source it.  While I understand the reasons for not open-sourcing MC, I'm not so so about restricting access to the codec. After all, if its a good codec, the more ubiquitous it becomes the better - and you're sure to find it starts popping up on all sorts of platforms

[Matt]

Just to clear up any confusion, this isn't about a video codec.  For digital TV, we save already encoded data to disk.  We're only describing the container format -- dvr-ms vs JRiver.

[jmone]

Just to clear up any confusion, this isn't about a video codec.  For digital TV, we save already encoded data to disk.  We're only describing the container format -- dvr-ms vs JRiver.

Thanks - so is it possible to remux to MPG (comming, workaournd, way etc) once you've finished with the live stream (Timeshift requirments I guess) as I don't see the need to keep the saved file in JRiver format over MPG?

Nathan

[Yaobing]

Thanks - so is it possible to remux to MPG (comming, workaournd, way etc) once you've finished with the live stream (Timeshift requirments I guess) as I don't see the need to keep the saved file in JRiver format over MPG?

Nathan

We will definitely provide a conversion tool for you to remux it to dvr-ms after recording and time-shifting session is over. It may even be possible to remux to mpg if we can find a usable MPEG-2 multiplexer on your computer.

Have to take it back. Remuxing to dvr-ms can only be done in real-time. So it would not be a good solution.

[jmone]

Thanks Yaobing - problem solved (MPG preferably then DVR-MS for me).  It would also be good if it was a TV check box option so MC just did it as a back ground task (eg: "Save TV Recordings as MPG/DVR-MS)....if not asking too much!

[park]

I'm interested in why you didnt go with mkv too. Seems like it would have been a great way to kill 2 birds with one stone: beef up the integration of mkv's features with MC  (remuxing, editing tags inside the files, etc. all inside of MC), and be not have to start from scratch on your own container format.

[jmone]

Hi,

Sorry to bring this one up (and if I'm the only one I'll go away) but I am still struggling to convert / edit the DVB-T content in the JRiver Container.  I asked on the main board http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=51213.0 what apps I could use to edit then mux these files out to MPG but no luck so far from the few I've tried.

Any suggestions on:
1) Edit/Remuxing App that works with JRiver containers
2) "Conversion Tool" to remux (as Yaobing originally thought would work)

Thanks
Nathan

[Yaobing]

Hi,

Sorry to bring this one up (and if I'm the only one I'll go away) but I am still struggling to convert / edit the DVB-T content in the JRiver Container.  I asked on the main board http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=51213.0 what apps I could use to edit then mux these files out to MPG but no luck so far from the few I've tried.

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Any suggestions on:
1) Edit/Remuxing App that works with JRiver containers

Unfortunately, most editing tools do not use DirectShow, or do not recognize jtv/jts files out of their own stupidity 

2) "Conversion Tool" to remux (as Yaobing originally thought would work)

I am still thinking about this, but I have other things to do, so it will be slow.

[jmone]

Sorry for the delay in replying.

Unfortunately, most editing tools do not use DirectShow, or do not recognize jtv/jts files out of their own stupidity 

I am still thinking about this, but I have other things to do, so it will be slow.

Thanks Yaobing, do you know of ANY DirectShow editing tools (I'll happily try a few)?

[Yaobing]

Thanks Yaobing, do you know of ANY DirectShow editing tools (I'll happily try a few)?

I have not found one.

[jmone]

An oldie by a goodie for me - any futher on being able to re-mux JTV into another container - mpg / TS....

[mojave]

Is there a way to save just a portion of a recording. I have over 300 GB of the 2010 Winter Olympics. I have about 8 GB of the highlights saved from the 2006 Winter Olympics. I would like to do the same with the 2010 Olympics. My kids like to go back and watch some of their favorite sports and my wife likes the figure skating gala.

[jmone]

Unfortunatly until we can mux into another container you are not able to edit this footage

[Yaobing]

An unexpected result from testing mp4 playback using Haali -

The latest Haali Media splitter from Haali Media Splitter site comes with a little program called DS Mux.  It can be used to mux jtv TV recordings into mkv files.  I did a quick test of a short recording.  The resulting file works fine with the following filters:

Haali Media Splitter
MPC - MPEG-2 Video Decoder (Gabest)

It would not work if Microsoft DTV-DVD Video Decoder is loaded (which happens on Windows 7 if you do not select any filters).  Video decoding slows to a crawl.

[jmone]

Thanks Yaobing!  Looking forward to testing when back in town...

[jmone]

Look promising.  Run the prog, selected the JTV file and it muxed into an MKV container.  File plays BUT if I do any seek then I lose Video, even a resume will not work, I have to to start at the begining each time - very odd.

[Yaobing]

Look promising.  Run the prog, selected the JTV file and it muxed into an MKV container.  File plays BUT if I do any seek then I lose Video, even a resume will not work, I have to to start at the begining each time - very odd.

Do you use Haali Media Splitter or something else?

It looks like the files created by this program is compatible with Haali Media Splitter only.  Hope they will improve it.

[jmone]

Yup Haali Splitter and Renderer with FFDSHOW in the middle.  I'll play with different combos at some point but it seems to lose Video output from the Splitter when a seek is performed.  I was wondering if it was related to the what JTV chops it up...

[jmone]

Summary of Issue: JR introduced a proprietary container format called JTV for storing of the Video and Audio streams captured from TV Tuner Cards about 18months ago with MC14.  While there are some technical benefits the issue is as JTV is a non-industry standard file type the only "compatible" software appears to be MC itself limiting their use to within MC only.

Requirement:  All I want to do is use MC to record my TV recordings to a single file so I can edit, store, burn to disc etc, so I need either:
1) An internal MC option to either record to an Industry Standard container (like MPG) instead of JTV,
2) an internal MC option to remux the compliant Video and Audio Streams from the JTV container to an Industry Standard container (like MPG), or
3) a 3rd party tool that will do the above.

Tried so far:  Any suggestions would be great as so far I've tried:
1) Hoping, pleading, demanding, and begging for a "record to MPG/TS" or the "remux option" in MC -  
2) Finding a direct show editor that supports the JTV container -  
3) Finding a remuxer that will convert JTV to anything standard.   (Note: latest testing with the Haali DS Mux shows it will mux of the ALL the JTV files as individual segments in the single MKV container.  The resultant MKV file will play but you can not seek or you lose Video output though sound is fine.  Then tried demuxing this files to the MPEG and AC3 streams but the video is garbage, wrong dimensions, framerates and is scrambled.  Then tried many of the transcoding progs on this MKV file to another format but either they fail or produce garbage at the other end)
4) ...even tried MC's own video transcoder in the Handheld segment on the JTV file and it just errors out  
5) ...also I only get a "corrupted data" on the PS3 if I try to stream a TV Recoding over DLNA  

Thanks
Nathan

[rpalmer68]

I'm with Nathan on this one.

I like to edit out the adds in recordings of things I want to keep, this is impossible with the MC recording format, I can't edit the recording or burn it to disc for use outside MC.

I haven't even tried to stream the recordings to a DLNA or non-MC decice, but can imagine in the future I will be needing to.

I'm sure there are excellet and compelling technical reasos for doing what you are doing for timeshifting use, but I do question the use of this format for recordings.

Richard

[Daydream]

This is one of the big reasons I chose to jump ship (spend twice as much on something that works like I want it; money was never the issue). Paradigm in action: I own the software I buy, it doesn't own me. All this it's of no big technical help (except saying that like jmone, I tried everything and nothing worked), but it just outlines the far extremes issues like these have pushed me to.

As far as I'm concerned this is a battle lost. By everybody. If tomorrow a new format is implemented, it's too late, I moved on. If time has any value for anybody listening up there, I have no more time to wait on you.

[raym]

Of the small set of video conversion tools I have at my disposal, none of them seem to load these files. I think a conversion tool built into MC would be the most appropriate solution. Like others, I need to be able to edit programs, save them as a single file and occassionally, burn them to DVD.

Thanks.

[jmone]

This is one of the big reasons I chose to jump ship (spend twice as much on something that works like I want it; money was never the issue). Paradigm in action: I own the software I buy, it doesn't own me. All this it's of no big technical help (except saying that like jmone, I tried everything and nothing worked), but it just outlines the far extremes issues like these have pushed me to.

It's funny - it was MC12's DTV development and the terrific interaction with Yaobing that saw me join the MC fold...but it was the other features that kept me.  With the introduction of the JTV format, I like you and several (many??, most??) other TV users have drifted to other non MC solutions for TV....

As far as I'm concerned this is a battle lost. By everybody. If tomorrow a new format is implemented, it's too late, I moved on. If time has any value for anybody listening up there, I have no more time to wait on you.

I hope you are wrong!  I'll keep annoying Jim and the JR crew on this one as it just does to fit with JRiver's mission for MC is "any media, any time, any place":
1) Technical (This should appeal to Matt et al) as it just makes good solid logical sense to support or interchange with std formats (and I hate poor thinking on stuff like this).  Imagine the "success" of MC if we all had to rip our Music into some MC only proprite format and could not convert it back, or use it on anyother device, stream it, burn it thereby leaving it "stuck"in MC forever...and how is TV records any different?
2) Marketing (This should appeal to Jim) I'd want to keep as many of my users in my own eco system as possible and away from competing products.  One potential argument from JR is that there is not enough users who care and while I don't proclaim to know the TV usage patterns across all MC users but certainly, like yourself there seems to be a preference for those doing allot of TV recording to use something else....

The great thing is that JR reads and responds...sometime not what I want but anyway, we have some influence on the product unlike most SW Vendors!

Thanks
Nathan

[Robo983]

Any word on this? I am not a fan of DVR-MS. I had that w/meedio and had many problems trying to get Upnp devices to ff/rw or to get audio working but some of it was the way the Meedio guys had implemented it.

I curently use BTV4 for tv recording. I launch it from MC w/MC minimized while I use BTV. I now have a problem that webplay/webremote initiates MC to maximize and take focus. Theater veiw has to be exited to get back to BTV, selecting it from theater view menu puts MC in a open close loop.

So I thought I would convert over to MC for DVR but I need to be able to watch my recorded shows on my WD TV Live and my XBOX XBMC Devices.

BTV uses their own format for recording but at the converts to mpg. I assume they do it for time shifting reasons too.

A common format for me is required before I could consider using MC as my DVR now that XMLTV appears to be free.

[glynor]

Check the build log of the current build 15.0.35 at the top of this board.  Item #1.  It is beta and brand new, so it is a bit messy, but they're certainly working on it.

[RoderickGI]

Would you like VideoReDo to open JRiver JTV files directly?

Would you like to trim and edit your TV recordings made in JTV and TS format?

If so, get over to this thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=92571.0 and do something about it!