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[JONCAT]

I'm trying to figure out if MC13 allows a view scheme, which is a collection of certain files according to particular attributes, to cycle through multiple views. At this time, it appears MC13 dictates that the user select one type of view (i.e. Thumbnails, Grouping & Panes, etc.) for the view, setup copies of each view scheme for each desired layout/view, or switch manually with multiple mouse clicks. The MC13 implementation seems counter to the very concept of a view scheme, so I'm guessing I must be wrong about the perceived difficulty in switching through various views within a view scheme.

A quick look at MC12 & 13 differences below:





DC

[JimH]

Try Customize View, where you can change it and save it.  You can also load views there.

[JONCAT]

Thanks. I'll try that.

dC

[JONCAT]

I see how that works. I thought maybe the Add Library View would be what I was looking for but it's not either. I almost thought that was it, it's like the Firefox Showcase addon but it doesn't apply to opening current tabs or views.

Would be neat to have in MC for tabs or even view scheme layouts. It would be some work, but might be very useful. Cooliris made it into MC13 when it was discussed here. Those addons are some real food for thought sometimes.

MC13 seems nice but I can't really yet fathom the big change with the limited access to views via the drop down for each view scheme; it's simply a deal-breaker for me as I use the function constantly with all my tabs.

DC

[JONCAT]

If I create 3-4 "views" for each view scheme to allow viewing of Tiles by each field used (i.e. Genre, Style, Artist, Album), I have to switch to a completely different view scheme via a tab or use the tree.

[mlagase]

How about adding some icons to the toolbar by right clicking the bottom or top toolbar, selecting customize toolbar, and adding different styles such as List Style:Details, List Style:Album Thumbnails, List Style:Thumbnails, etc?

I just found this out recently and works well for me switching through different views quicker.

Hope this helps

[JONCAT]

I don't comprehend why Tiles have been completely segregated from Panes. This means I need 100 view schemes in MC13 to re-create my MC12 system with 20 schemes, and adds unneeded complexity with switching to another scheme just to view it differently.

Pane view (1), Tiles = 5 for each scheme so I can switch between Genre, Style, Custom Artist, Album.....100 schemes as opposed to 20.

If I understand what the new way of thinking is asking for, I am now required to manual re-create (5) MC13 view schemes for each MC12 view scheme (Pane, Tile=Artist, Tile=Album, Tile=Genre, Tile=Style).

DC

[JONCAT]

Has this problem been rectified yet?

DC

[rick.ca]

If I create 3-4 "views" for each view scheme to allow viewing of Tiles by each field used (i.e. Genre, Style, Artist, Album), I have to switch to a completely different view scheme via a tab or use the tree.

I don't get it. I use Panes (Genre, Artist, Album, Year, Rating) to quickly select what I'm interested in viewing. The results can be viewed as album thumbnails or details. Are you saying you want to see a thumbnail representing each value for whatever field you choose? Then what do you do with it? Why not just select items in panes, and view the resulting albums. The selection can be quickly modified, or items selected for playing. I don't see how you can do that as effectively if you're always viewing by a particular attribute.

I understand why you don't want to use 100 schemes. But I also can't fathom 20, or even 5. I feel like I'm missing out on something. Please help. Maybe I'd be more fulfilled using two schemes instead of one.

[JONCAT]

Rick,

I haven't used MC13 for a while so maybe they "fixed" it.

Can you tell me, based on the screenshots above, if MC13 allows the drop down menu for any view scheme, to quickly switch between Genre>Style>Artist>Album>(file list)  etc.?

As you can see, the initial versions of MC13 were much different from MC12 in this regard in that one would need a separate view scheme to represent each of the above noted fields for ONE view scheme because one could switch between fields with the menu anymore.

20 view schemes may sound like a lot, but what they cover really helps to organize my collection, rather than use playlists, which I use only for "mixes".

Maybe I'll post what I use in a screenshot.

DC

[park]

It hasnt been fixed yet.

I'm hoping that improvements to Theater view will eventually make their way to library views too. Since both are supposed to be easy and painless ways to "browse" your library, rather than tag and organize, they both ahve a lot in common. The only difference I see is that library view is deisgned to be used with a mouse, whilst Theater view is designed for a remote.

[JONCAT]

If it hasn't been fixed I can't bring myself to purchase MC13 as much as I'd like to support JRiver with their new offering.

If it hasn't been fixed, then I would need around 100 view schemes and many more mouse clicks to do what I do in MC12 with 20 schemes.

Oh well....MC12 is working okay for now.

DC

[park]

For what it's worth I'm getting by ok. I didnt think I would. I made special panes based views just for the tagging, and I use library views for browsing. It works especially well for movies. The only thing that frustrates me sometimes is when I want to switch between grouped list and album thumbnails, in the bottom files list.

[rick.ca]

Can you tell me, based on the screenshots above, if MC13 allows the drop down menu for any view scheme, to quickly switch between Genre>Style>Artist>Album>(file list)  etc.?

Far more effective than drop-down menus, it provides panes. And they can be displayed as drop-down panes. Sort of the ultimate in interactive, multi-level, multi-function drop-down menus. I don't recall exactly how this is different from MC12, but maybe the behaviour you're missing has simply been displaced by something better.

But I still think you must be using views I haven't considered and don't understand. Perhaps a screenshot, along with an explanation of how you use it, would be helpful.

20 view schemes may sound like a lot, but what they cover really helps to organize my collection, rather than use playlists, which I use only for "mixes".

But maybe not. This is exactly why I use panes—to display in seconds anything like "blues rock albums from the 1960's with tracks rated 5-stars." I don't use playlists at all.

[JONCAT]

Panes are great, and the drop down panes are great too; they were added to MC12 not to long ago.

If you look at the screenshots at the start of this thread, you should see that MC13 does not allow you to switch, in seconds, to anothe raspect of your scheme; namely, you can't switch from Albums to Genre when using Tiles. I use Tiles to re-create the feel of looking at my albums and being able to choose a unique Scheme and then switch between whatever fields have been chosen for display of that scheme. Mainly, this would be Genre>Style>Custom Artist>Album>File list on double-click.

So while I could switch to another scheme to go from Custom Artist to Albums, besides being in my opinion more cumbersome, I would have to manually create a view scheme for each Tile view (Genre, Style, Custom Artist, etc.) i.e. 100 schemes for 20 (which I could probably cut down to 15).

I'll post some screenshots this week, but if you till have MC12 installed, it's quite different from MC13 and the difference is obvious. You can't just go plug n play from MC12>13 that's for sure. You have to spend a day configuring view schemes and then use an inferior system (imho).

best,
DC

[datdude]

I agree on this as well.  I just went with MC 13 though anyhow because of the other new features.

[rick.ca]

Mainly, this would be Genre>Style>Custom Artist>Album>File list on double-click.

I'm still trying to imagine what you're describing. Might it be something like the "nested views" described following? (Bear in mind I don't recall exactly how MC12 works—I'm just going by what you've said here.)

"Genre view" shows thumbnails representing each genre in the collection. Double-click on one, and it changes to a different "Type view," and shows thumbnails for each style in that genre. And so on, down to tracks on a particular album. While this facilitates drilling-down, you can still select any view from the drop-down menu. Any view could be different than a simple thumbnail view. The "Style view," for example, might show all albums grouped by artist, instead of just styles. If you had a style selected in "Style view" and switched to "Album view," it would show all albums of that style (again, optionally grouped by artist).

[park]

He means that before, you would have a list of categories (genre, artist etc.) and you would be able to choose which one to start your browsing from. Now, that list has disappeared from the main interface, so you have to start from the "top" category listed inside "customize view".

I always thought that the list of categories was buried away too deeply in the menu anyway. I wanted the list to be out on the interface, maybe at the top of the list in a horizontal row, or in the view header bar. Now it is totally gone, I am living without it, but as Doctor Cilantro says, it does mean that you have to make more views.

Rick.ca, you are right about how to use the "view" menu on a thumbnail to choose which order to view your categories, but since there isnt an "All" thumbnail (ala Theater view), we can't choose which category to start at.

[rick.ca]

So this is not about nested views, it's just about where to start browsing from? I thought the point was each one of those "starting categories" could have a different view associated with it. If this is just about navigation, surely pane view is vastly superior. You can have how ever many panes you want, select any one of them first, and then select additional categories in any order.

I suppose I'm going to have to see a screenshot before I understand how you might be using these views.

[park]

See the screenshot at the top of this thread. Notice how in the top picture, you can choose "Artist" or "Album" from the menu (not the best example admittedly, but you can have setup whichever categories you like to be there), and start browsing from either. You can also choose to view the same viewscheme as panes. You can change between these views at any time, with just 2 clicks.

Actually, back when MC12 was still beta I was always arguing that 2 clicks was too much and the feature was too hidden away. I wanted the list of categories to be at the top of the list and always available, so that choosing where to start your broswing would be a one click deal.

[rick.ca]

you can choose "Artist" or "Album" from the menu

That was clear from the first message. But I have no way of knowing what those terms mean in this context. What do you see when you choose "Artist." How is it different from "Album." Why would you choose to start with one rather than the other? What happens when you switch—does the same selection "stick," or do you have to start over? How is the selection narrowed using these views?

[marko]

I've been watching this thread, 'humming and hawing' over whether to reply.
I also whole heartedly agree with the sentiments being expressed. The view header menu in v12 was one of its most useful browsing features. So much flexibility packed into such a small space and I really do miss it... being able to flit between pane and library browser views with a couple of clicks was so very handy, while now, we need to configure each view seperately in the tree.

We can't achieve a similar browsing experience with v13, it's a completely different experience altogether. So, as I'm not about to create a gazillion permutations of any given view scheme in the tree, I definitely feel that in this respect, MC13 has taken a step backwards. v13 isn't bad, it's just more limited than v12 (remember, we're only discussing library browsing here) and so new tactics need to be learned.

I just shrugged my shoulders and got on with it as I've got a pretty strong feeling that this one's not about to revert. You need to use v13 for a few weeks, adjusting and creating views as the need arises, and while that process is frustrating, you should find that as time goes by, you do less and less adjusting and creation.

Tell you though, I'd take the v12 view header options back in an instant because, even though I've pretty much done with adjusting and creating, compared to v12, I still feel I'm left short.

-marko.

rick, you posted while I was typing, does this help... ?
in v12, the view header menu would allow us to start off in, say, a pane view with an artist pane and an album pane.
Now, from the view header menu, you could jump directly to 'albums' which would load what in v13 would be called "Top > View As > album thumbnails"
To get the same in v13, you need to create a pane view, an album thumbnails view for albums and an album thumbnail view for artists.
You then need to switch between them by travelling over to the tree and selecting the new view layout.

In this example, selecting the 'artist' thumbnails would allow you to click through on any artist and see just that artist's albums, or, if you preferred, you could select the 'album' thumbnails and see a list of all available albums from all artists.
The beauty of the v12 system was that each 'view' could have independent thumbnail sizes and independent thumbnail text, and I'm also pretty sure (how quickly memory fades these days) that each could also have independent sorting rules applied too.
I'm telling you, v12 library browsing really was the mutts nuts!!

-marko.

[rick.ca]

Thanks, Marko. Yes, that helps. I might have even had a picture of it in my mind—until I got to "mutts nuts." (Don't worry, I googled that, and I'm okay now.)

I still have trouble seeing anything being as effective as panes for selecting any particular subset of a collection for viewing. But you seem to be saying this is something that would work with panes as well. I do see the benefit of having more control over how the results are displayed—particularly how they are grouped and sorted. In MC13, the choices seem to be limited if panes are used. It would be nice to have Group by on the drop-down menu along with Sort inside groups by. And perhaps Group by this could be added to the context menus of tile column headers and panes.

[JONCAT]

Hey, I like the Xmas playing now skin.....snowy.

I'll post some detailed screenshots of my setup when my son takes a nap ("we're" home sick with today).

DC

[JONCAT]

Tell you though, I'd take the v12 view header options back in an instant because, even though I've pretty much done with adjusting and creating, compared to v12, I still feel I'm left short.

A few pics: http://www.pix01.com/gallery/ED13D42F-DA5E-448D-87D4-EEE39DF2743B/menus/

Granted "Jamaican" is a genre in Music scheme so I don't really need the Jamaican Archive, but I have about 15K songs of the Genre and it's nice to have a specific scheme to "work" with.

dc

[Matt]

In build 90 and later: (coming next week)
NEW: It is possible to change more view settings like the "View By" in the view header menu.

[rick.ca]

A few pics

Thanks. A few questions:

When you click on a thumbnail, in "genre view" for example, what happens? Does it show artists using the same tile settings, or does it switch to "artist view"?

This illustrates how you can drill-down, changing views as you go, but what about going in the opposite direction? If you were viewing one artist's albums, how would you expand the selection to include albums of all artists in the genre?

The last screenshot shows a drop-down pane details view. Can the pane be incorporated into the other three views? I presume not, which is why you're displaying an alphabet (can't in MC13 either).

In build 90 and later: (coming next week)
NEW: It is possible to change more view settings like the "View By" in the view header menu.

It will be interesting to see how this changes things.

BTW, in playing around with non-pane thumbnail views, I see that when I hover on a thumbnail, links to each of the lower categories in my view scheme are provided. So I can, for example, jump from a genre thumbnail to a view of all albums in that genre (i.e., bypassing artist). At any level, the "file" link opens the bottom pane to show details. Breadcrumbs facilitate backtracking. Is this not very similar to what you want? The tile format remains fixed, but being able to use a link rather than the header menu is a plus.

I'll vote for adding thumbnail options to categories (i.e., so they change according to the category being displayed), if that helps.

[rick.ca]

It would be nice to have Group by on the drop-down menu along with Sort inside groups by.

Added to release 90. Wow! Somebody must be listening.

[JONCAT]

In build 90 and later: (coming next week)
NEW: It is possible to change more view settings like the "View By" in the view header menu.

Yep, pretty cool. Color me upgraded (possibly ; )

I've got a million things going on here so my head is a little skiddish....I think if one uses the links on the Tiles, the all Tiles would have to be highlight to "shift" to a view corresponding to a new Tile view.

For example, in Genre, the link would only show the Tiles of Artists or Albums in that genre (in effect the links are the same as drilling down); you'll notice my Album Tile scheme is setup to display all albums sorted by Description (A=single artist B= multi - this allows my to put multi at the bottom of the view) then by Artist so I can browse my albums but order by artist (without multi "getting in the way" at the top).

This next point will probably need to be clarified further: I always wished there was a way to drill down to a location and switch via the menu but not have MC reset the view. Meaning, sometimes you just want to "stay where you are" and view the data in Tiles when you were just in Panes (doesn't apply to all incarnations of browsing in Tiles but it would be useful).

DC

[rick.ca]

I think if one uses the links on the Tiles, the all Tiles would have to be highlight to "shift" to a view corresponding to a new Tile view.

Yes, if you want exactly the same selection in a different view. I didn't mean to suggest the thumbnail links would be a substitute for changing categories via the header menu—just that they are there as a more flexible means of "navigation."

I always wished there was a way to drill down to a location and switch via the menu but not have MC reset the view.

That makes perfect sense—you want it both ways. Come to think of it, you would think the developers would understand this by now. If there are two ways to do something, we want to be able to do it both ways. If there are many ways to do something, we want to be able to do it all ways. Just make sure it remains perfectly clear and intuitive!

[JONCAT]

Well I'm onboard after the change. It's pretty good, not exactly like MC12 but I guess a decent compromise.

MC13 has other things going for it too.

What I miss however is the unique settings for each Tile view; in MC12 I could have no text under Album Tiles and then have text under Custom Artist Tiles. With MC13, the Tile views are integrated in a way to make this impossible.

It's a different view so technically the user should be able to control the text for each view that  is to appear under a Tile.

Overall, I'm digging MC13 now.

DC

[JONCAT]

Sorting applies to each scheme across view styles. This makes no sense, I'm sorry.

I'm forced to create unique view schemes again. The user defines the view based on the scheme and categories they apply to that scheme. That sorting applies to all views of a scheme doesn't follow suit with the logic.

MC12 allowed customization of the view as a uniquely setup way of viewing files. I can't use the same sorting for Albums that I use for Artists.

Back to MC12, man this is frustrating!

DC

[)p(]

Back to MC12, man this is frustrating!

DC

I feel with you. I think part comes from that mc gives you so much control that it feels really frustrating when you can not implement what you have in mind in the details of setting up your views like you want.

peter

[JONCAT]

Well, in this case, I feel there is a gap in the logic and while this was a step forward, sorting should be view specific like MC12.

Let's assume a user uses one scheme, as MC13 seems to dictate, and wants to view it a number of ways, then sorting is an integral part how the view is constructed which should not have to be set every time a view is brought up.

My Album Tile view uses a special tag field to delineate multi-artist albums from single-artist albums. The effect of this is a Tile view of albums sorted by artist which re-creates the look of my CD storage books. The special field is needed because MC by default (unless you sort Z-A) puts multi-artist albums at the top, which looks sloppy.

Mc13 breaks my view in that the sorting that applies to my chosen view need not and can not apply to my other views as it breaks them.

If Mc gives the user control with sorting, it needs to be applied properly and not apply system wide (all views), that is simply not cogent.

DC

[Listener]

Well, in this case, I feel there is a gap in the logic and while this was a step forward, sorting should be view specific like MC12.

Let's assume a user uses one scheme, as MC13 seems to dictate, and wants to view it a number of ways, then sorting is an integral part how the view is constructed which should not have to be set every time a view is brought up.

My Album Tile view uses a special tag field to delineate multi-artist albums from single-artist albums. The effect of this is a Tile view of albums sorted by artist which re-creates the look of my CD storage books. The special field is needed because MC by default (unless you sort Z-A) puts multi-artist albums at the top, which looks sloppy.

Mc13 breaks my view in that the sorting that applies to my chosen view need not and can not apply to my other views as it breaks them.

If Mc gives the user control with sorting, it needs to be applied properly and not apply system wide (all views), that is simply not cogent.

DC

I strongly agree.

Bill

[JONCAT]

For now I have created an extra scheme but the sorting issue remains.

It would also be nice if the menu "tracked" the user's sorting choices by adding them to the menu like the list count option for the right click menu.

I do like the "View By" that was added...not perfect but nice. And I notice that View shows all sub-schemes in the currently browsed view scheme...kind of like the Favorites icon given quick access to various locations.

DC