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[glynor]

I think that what you were hitting on was the reason why many audio-centric people HERE don't necessarily feel the need for the "always visible" breadcrumb info, which is because the type of people posting to this forum are likely to be the type of people who are intimately familiar with their audio collection.

We don't disagree... I was just trying to explain how you can get confused to those who might feel that those people who do are just "not with it".  I agree with you completely.

I'm not sure about this one -- it's hard to tell if there are any "gotchas" without trying it.  It also appears that this might require more navigation keystrokes than what I suggested earlier, which was to make the second line non-highlightable whenever it was in "breadcrumb info" mode.

This suggestion would be "keystroke-count neutral" for all normal navigation.  It would require identical keystrokes in count and type to the existing system.  That's because I'm suggesting that the secondary roller be what the focus jumps to when you hit the left arrow to jump up, rather than the existing behavior which sends you to the top roller.

The only additional keystroke that would ever be required would be to use one of the controls under "Play All".  This would simply require one extra up arrow keystroke, to get the focus up to the top roller.

I agree that it might be hard to evaluate without just trying it.  Much like I didn't really "get" the idea of what this new system was going to be like without trying it, I don't know that you can be absolutely sure about this idea without trying it.

The reason I'm not a huge fan of your idea is twofold.  One in that it breaks the whole concept of the secondary roller being a useful navigational tool, and makes the other secondary rollers less intuitive that they can be used actively.  In other words, my wife's question would be: "Why can I use all of these and highlight them, but not this one random roller? How do I get to it?"  She wouldn't understand that there was no need to get there, it would just "feel" broken, even though it wasn't.  Plus, using it in mouse-mode currently allows you to click on the different "links" in the secondary roller, and I particularly like someone's idea above that you could use the right-arrow on the breadcrumb roller to quickly skip past certain categories (effectively a shortcut for choosing the category and then selecting "all").

[glynor]

I agree that the "Play All" button currently seems mis-named, but I think this could be solved by either renaming "Play All" to "Controls," or just adding a forth button.  There comes a point where eliminating buttons makes things MORE complicated, not less.  Having too FEW buttons often requires extra complexity in order to get achieve the control you need.  There is a happy medium between a "clean" interface and effective, efficient "functionality."

The reason they don't want to rename Play All is because selecting it and hitting Enter (without going to the secondary roller) DOES SOMETHING.  Naming it "Controls" would obviously mangle this functionality and force you to use the secondary roller.  Now, some would argue that since Controls would just be a "folder" for the secondary roller, that it could automatically select Play All from the secondary roller and enter would still work.  True, but that isn't as intuitive as just selecting Play All and hitting Enter.

That's why I think we need the Play All button (with it's associated sub-roller menu) to stay around, but we need a separate place to store the controls that aren't related to that function at all.  If all navigation functions move to the Breadcrumbs roller, then the current "Back" button is unneeded (or could be moved to the secondary roller).

[Matt]

The reason they don't want to rename Play All is because selecting it and hitting Enter (without going to the secondary roller) DOES SOMETHING.  Naming it "Controls" would obviously mangle this functionality and force you to use the secondary roller.  Now, some would argue that since Controls would just be a "folder" for the secondary roller, that it could automatically select Play All from the secondary roller and enter would still work.  True, but that isn't as intuitive as just selecting Play All and hitting Enter.

Exactly.  I quite like how "Play All" is sitting at the top and only a click away.

Adding another root roller item to the right like "Controls" wouldn't bother me, but we're also trying hard to fight the temptation to pile more junk on the screen.

[lalittle]

This suggestion would be "keystroke-count neutral" for all normal navigation.  It would require identical keystrokes in count and type to the existing system.  That's because I'm suggesting that the secondary roller be what the focus jumps to when you hit the left arrow to jump up, rather than the existing behavior which sends you to the top roller.

The only additional keystroke that would ever be required would be to use one of the controls under "Play All".  This would simply require one extra up arrow keystroke, to get the focus up to the top roller.

Once on the top bar, there would also be an extra "down" keystroke needed to get past the breadcrumb roller to the list, but as we've both noted, it's difficult to really tell how well things will work without trying it.

it breaks the whole concept of the secondary roller being a useful navigational tool,

It will always be a useful navigational tool for the information it shows, but the thinking was that if it didn't bring any extra navigational capabilities to the table, it isn't useful to make it highlightable.  If the top bar can be used for "back" navigation, then highlighting the breadcrumb path is reduncant.

and makes the other secondary rollers less intuitive that they can be used actively.  In other words, my wife's question would be: "Why can I use all of these and highlight them, but not this one random roller? How do I get to it?"  She wouldn't understand that there was no need to get there, it would just "feel" broken, even though it wasn't.

You may be correct, but I'm not sure if this would be the case.  It might feel odd as you say, or it might feel totally normal to just let the breadcrumb bar be info-only when navigating.  If the navigation worked intuitively, it might not occur to people to even "try" to get to that line.  I honestly don't know how it would feel at this point.

Plus, using it in mouse-mode currently allows you to click on the different "links" in the secondary roller

This is something that I hadn't considered.  You're correct, a navigable breadcrumb path does give mouse users a shortcut.

I particularly like someone's idea above that you could use the right-arrow on the breadcrumb roller to quickly skip past certain categories (effectively a shortcut for choosing the category and then selecting "all").

I don't follow this.  Are you sure you're referring to a "breadcrumb path" and not a "menu"?  Keep in mind that the second line is used for both.

My opinion at this point is this:
1) IF the breadcrumb path is highlightable and used for navigation, it doesn't seem to make sense to ALSO allow this functionality with the top line.
2) IF the top line contains the "back" capability as it currently does, then I think this navigation paradigm should be committed to and the breadcrumb path made non-highlightable.
3) The breadcrumb path should either not be hidden, or there should be an option to keep it visible.  It's just too useful to hide it.

Thanks again for the feedback,

Larry

[lalittle]

Exactly.  I quite like how "Play All" is sitting at the top and only a click away.

I can see this, and now that I know how it works I'm fine with it, but I'm thinking about new users.  When I first started using this new paradigm, I couldn't find some of the controls that ended up being under "Play All."  It just didn't occur to me that this was a "menu."

Adding another root roller item to the right like "Controls" wouldn't bother me, but we're also trying hard to fight the temptation to pile more junk on the screen.

I can understand your concern -- you have to balance form with function.  That said, it's really frustrating when important functionality is given up in favor of form.

Also, as I mentioned above, there is a point where usage gets MORE complicated due to too few controls.

Is there perhaps a way we could assign what function was used as the default item for this button?  Personally, I'll rarely use "Play All" from the top bar -- I prefer to just drill into the song list and select "Play All" from the pop-up menu.  It would therefore be much more useful to "me" it if this button was "Playing Now" by default.  Just like you like having easier access to "Play All," I would like having easier access to "Playing Now" (which is currently a pain to get to.)  Forcing this button to be "Play All" is targeting the interface at only a specific sub-group of people.  To me it's a hindrance.

Thanks,

Larry

[Griff]

Exactly.  I quite like how "Play All" is sitting at the top and only a click away.

Adding another root roller item to the right like "Controls" wouldn't bother me, but we're also trying hard to fight the temptation to pile more junk on the screen.

Sorry, I dont like it, but Im a add person.

But, some food for thought:

Why not change "Play all" to "Controls", Now when you select something in the sec. roller bar (Play ALL,Add All, Playing Now and ect.)

"Controls" now changes to the "Item" you selected and youre again only one click away.

?

[raym]

I like the idea someone had (Glynor?) where "Play All" becomes the last used command.

Am I the only one that thinks "Playing Now" really needs to be abailable at the top, gloablly? I think it's burried way too deep.

Thanks.

[rpalmer68]

Am I the only one that thinks "Playing Now" really needs to be abailable at the top, gloablly? I think it's burried way too deep.

I don't use it enough to worry myself, but can see the reason why you might like it easily available.
Up until now I've really only used the theater view menus for video as music was via Netremote, but as this changes I may need Playing Now more.



Richard

[glynor]

I like the idea someone had (Glynor?) where "Play All" becomes the last used command.

I like this idea too, but I felt like you couldn't do this if you don't move the other non-related controls out from under there.  It's already confusing enough where to find these, but then if the name is "constantly changing" (from the perspective of a novice)?

If the only things "under the button" were items that would be used as the button (through the "sticky remembering" method), then it could be very useful.  I'd like to see it have the same "more" idems that we have in the old-style menus and then remember them as the new default too, so that I could use "Add (as Next to Play)" which I use often for on-the-fly playlist building.  But those options should be the only choices in the secondary roller under the Play All button.

But, I also am not thrilled about adding a new, fourth button to the top roller, so I was hoping to find a solution that would allow for all of those concerns, and the others above.  Flipping navigation entirely to the Breadcrumbs seemed to make sense and solve many of those issues nicely.

Once on the top bar, there would also be an extra "down" keystroke needed to get past the breadcrumb roller to the list, but as we've both noted, it's difficult to really tell how well things will work without trying it.

There wouldn't be any extra down-arrow push.  That's one of the points as it would solve what you were asking for above.  The extra down arrow already exists but this would solve it.  In any case where you are just navigating back a tier in the view hierarchy, it would involve one fewer down-arrow keypresses to get back to the file/category listing:

Currently:
0. Arrow over to left side of screen (if in Thumbnail mode), this is variable and not needed in Lineup or List mode so not counted.
1. Press Left Arrow takes you to Top Roller
2. Left Arrow again takes you back one "tier" in the Breadcrumbs.
3. Down once takes you to the Breadcrubs Roller.
4. Down again takes you back to the File/Categories list.

Proposed:
0. Arrow over to left side of screen (if in Thumbnail mode).
1. Press Left Arrow takes you to Breadcrumbs roller.
2. Left Arrow again takes you back one "tier" in the Breadcrumbs.
3. Down arrow once takes you back to the File/Categories list.

Plus, this way you get these added bonuses:
1) ability to re-purpose the button in the top roller used for the back button for the stuff discussed above, allowing a "sticky" Play All button.
2) The ability to do this instead: In step 2 of the "proposed steps" above, you could hit Right-Arrow instead of Left-Arrow and have it quickly drill down through the View as if you are manually going to the Category list below and choosing "All".

Am I the only one that thinks "Playing Now" really needs to be abailable at the top, gloablly? I think it's burried way too deep.

I hardly ever go to Playing Now in Theater View (I generally use Display View if anything at all).  However, this could certainly be one of the "top" choices in the proposed new "Controls" button in the Top Roller, which would certainly make it a bit less buried and easier/faster to get to.

[glynor]

In fact, one other thing you could do would be this:

0. Arrow over to left side of screen (if in Thumbnail mode).
1. Press Left Arrow takes you to Breadcrumbs roller.
2. Up Arrow once takes you to the Top Roller, and selects the "Media Type" button (the center one).  The Secondary Roller changes from the Breadcrumbs Roller to the View Roller (showing the same roller you see when you initially open the Video view, for example).
3. Down arrow once takes you to the Views Roller, allowing you to switch to a different view, no matter where you happen to be currently inside your View hierarchy.

This would actually solve another minor problem.  It would let you switch from "TV Shows View" to "Movies View" immediately, even if you had navigated "deep in" to a view (inside a Series and inside a Season at the file listing, for example), without having to navigate all the way back to the "root" of the Video views.  Likewise, you could switch in Audio from "Genre View" to "Ratings View" very quickly, even if you had navigated down the Genre/Artist/Album chain.

When I want to switch views, I no longer care about "where" I happen to be in the current view, I just want to get out of it.  It is a waste of time to have to "left arrow" back over and over to get back to the root of the "Video" or "Audio" view.  Plus, I often over-shoot and end up back at the root view.

This method would tie the "Video" button in the top-roller to some real actual function (it would "hide" the breadcrumbs and open the Video Views Roller).  This matches the behavior of "Play All" (it hides the Breadcrumbs and shows the Play All Roller).  And it saves a LOT of keypresses needed to switch from one view to another within the same Media Type.

So, the View Roller would be "attached" to the media type button.  The Root view would only be different in that it would hide all the other rollers and stuff until you "opened" a particular media type.  But it would make sense that you'd go back to the Media Type button to choose a different view.

PS.  I'm certainly not opposed to trying to poke holes in this idea.  I've given it some thought, but there are probably consequences I'm not thinking of.  So please give it a shot!  Matt's concern over touch screens initially tripped me up until I tried navigating Theater View a bit with the mouse.  Clicking directly on the breadcrumbs, rather than on a back button really makes more sense for touch/mouse users anyway.  The biggest issue was getting back to the root of a Media Type view to pick a different view.  With this, though, about the only extra thing you'd need would be a "home" button, which could be added to the Top Roller easily with a house icon (perhaps only optionally visible).

[lalittle]

There wouldn't be any extra down-arrow push.

There actually would be in certain situations.  For example:

- You've navigated to the top roller (for whatever reason) from a genre/artist list and you want to go back down to the list.
- You press "down" once, which takes you to the breadcrumb roller.
- You press "down" a second time, which takes you to the list.

If the breadcrumb roller was not highlightable:

- You've navigated to the top roller (for whatever reason) from a genre/artist list and you want to go back down to the list.
- You press "down" once, and you're back on the list.

Two "downs" vs one.  Not a deal breaker, but a difference none-the-less.

I'm not claiming that one paradigm is necessarily better overall -- I'm simply pointing out that they both offer certain advantages, and that the "best" paradigm for any given user will depend on each individual's navigation style.  I'm also not saying that what you're advocating wouldn't be better than the current paradigm.  The truth is that I'm honestly not sure which idea would work best even for my own needs.  It's just too hard to accurately tell without trying it.

On a side note, we all (including me) need to remain mindful of the fact that small difference in the way one navigates -- using lists instead of thumbs, or desiring easy access to "Playing Now" rather than "Play All" -- can completely change one's perception of how well the navigation works.  It's easy to dismiss someone else's requests just because "their" ideas don't apply to the "our" navigation style.  Remember that something that seems utterly trivial to one person may be a central issue to someone else.  This is not directed at anybody in particular (particularly not you, glynor) -- I just wanted to mention it in order to keep a level playing field of ideas here.

Larry

[lalittle]

Glynor -- in the paradigm that you've been advocating, is the breadcrumb list always visible (other than when this spot is used for a menu)?  If so, I think that it has the highest chance of being the best "overall" paradigm for different types of navigation.  I don't see any obvious "holes" in it at this point, so this paradigm would get my vote for the next thing to try since I do see the potential for some problems with the idea that I was suggesting earlier.

We need to "feel" it in action in order to see if it works as well as it seems like it should.

Larry

[MrHaugen]

I like the idea someone had (Glynor?) where "Play All" becomes the last used command.

Am I the only one that thinks "Playing Now" really needs to be abailable at the top, gloablly? I think it's burried way too deep.

Thanks.

I'm using playing now a lot my self. In fact it's the only thing I would use on that roller on regular basis. So a way of having this button remember the last used thing would be the best imo (if not, please consider having a own Playing Now button there anyway). I'm also all for the idea of having one extra button wich can make it all more logicaly grouped.

[gappie]

i like how it looks now... three choices... but i would preferr the breadcrumb to stay visible also...

but there is something unlogical in what is shown in the upper roller

when i go to audio it says audio
when i choose artist as a view it still says audio
now when i choose one artist like miles davis it says miles davis
now when i choose an album, it gets the name of that album...

should it not say which view you are in now. it jumps one layer of browsing

 
gab

[glynor]

There actually would be in certain situations.  For example:

- You've navigated to the top roller (for whatever reason) from a genre/artist list and you want to go back down to the list.
- You press "down" once, which takes you to the breadcrumb roller.
- You press "down" a second time, which takes you to the list.

See, that's where I was confused by your statement before.  That isn't an "extra" keypress because it already applies.  You're comparing your hypothetical to my hypothetical, rather than to the current system.

gab, I completely agree.  There are three buttons on the top roller, and one of them doesn't do anything at all (the media type button).  And then the Breadcrumbs roller doesn't have any functionality either... It's a lot of wasted screen real estate, which makes me feel like there must be a more efficient and "cleaner" way to set it up, if only slightly.

I'll say again...

I still think this is miles above where Theater View was only two weeks ago.  The initial idea for setting up this style of Rollers was a stroke of genius.  I gave LOTS of thought to how to set it up way back when and never came up with anything anywhere near as good as this.  I'm just trying to improve it on the margins to take it from "very good" to "perfect".

[glynor]

Glynor -- in the paradigm that you've been advocating, is the breadcrumb list always visible (other than when this spot is used for a menu)?  If so, I think that it has the highest chance of being the best "overall" paradigm for different types of navigation. 

Yes.

[Dutch Peter]

Just checked the new Theater View. Very nice.
I was wondering ...
In the playing now there is always something dsiplayed. It could be cover art, MC playing ping pong of pictures, etc, etc.
I have tried to disable it. Just to have nothing blocking the nice Theater View look that is hidden beyond this...
Is there a way to do this???

[raym]

in the paradigm that you've been advocating, is the breadcrumb list always visible (other than when this spot is used for a menu)?  If so, I think that it has the highest chance of being the best "overall" paradigm for different types of navigation.

I may get slammed for this, but I think Matt said a few days ago that the breadcrumbs don't really add that much value and I kinda agree. Personally, my views are never more than 3 or 4 levels deep so I don't tend to get "lost" in the flow. I endorse the "view name" in the header idea coz I think it's neccessary to know which view you're currently browsing but other than that.... I'd rather not "clog" the screen up with breadcrumbs.

You're aware that you can easily add the breadcrumbs trail by doing a simple edit to the skin's xml? Refer jmone's changes in another post. I think this is where this kind of cutomisation belongs so that everyone can have things the way they want (where it makes sense).

Just my opinion and I'm not trying to change anyone's ideals  .

[glynor]

You're aware that you can easily add the breadcrumbs trail by doing a simple edit to the skin's xml? Refer jmone's changes in another post. I think this is where this kind of cutomisation belongs so that everyone can have things the way they want (where it makes sense).

I tend to agree, if the navigation is kept as is (which I wouldn't necessarily advocate).  However, I think an argument could be made that you could just as easily make an "Obsidian Clean" skin which would hide the breadcrumbs.  I'd say that "novice" users (those who are less likely to have the know-how to modify a skin, or download and install someone else's custom skin) are the same people who are more likely to get lost in navigation.

As I said "above", I don't typically get lost either, since my views are also only generally 2-3 levels deep.  However, in a short period of time, I've literally watched my wife (who, it should be said, is no dummy when it comes to computer use -- she does live with me and my server rooms at home, after all) and a few friends get confused quite quickly in views only 2 categories deep.

Assuming that the breadcrumbs are not changed to "add more to the equation" (by being used for navigation instead of just information)... The question, as Larry so succinctly put it above, is NOT over the capability to hide or show it, but over what the best configuration for the default skin that will be used by 99% of the novice users.

[raym]

However, I think an argument could be made that you could just as easily make an "Obsidian Clean" skin which would hide the breadcrumbs.

I don't dispute this but as it stands right now, given where the breadcrumbs reside, these cannot be hidden in the xml config without hiding *BOTH* rollers - rendering the system somewhat useless. I could be wrong on this though.

[lalittle]

I may get slammed for this, but I think Matt said a few days ago that the breadcrumbs don't really add that much value and I kinda agree. Personally, my views are never more than 3 or 4 levels deep so I don't tend to get "lost" in the flow. I endorse the "view name" in the header idea coz I think it's neccessary to know which view you're currently browsing but other than that.... I'd rather not "clog" the screen up with breadcrumbs.

I understand that since "you" don't use the breadcrumb path, they don't add much value, much like the "Play All" choice on the top bar adds zero value to me (I just don't use it.)  Anything that one person doesn't use will seem like it's "not adding much," which is why we have to actively concentrate on keeping an open mind toward other people's navigation styles and needs.  This line is probably present 50% of the time due to the fact that it reappears every time you navigate to the top or second roller lines, so I just don't agree that hiding it will help prevent "clogging up the screen."  In other words, it's often present anyway, so how much does it really gain to hide it for only a portion of the time?

Add to this the fact that hiding it really does have a noticeable effect on my navigating.  I know it may seem like a small thing on paper, but the extra thought it takes to think about where I am, not to mention the extra navigation it takes actually reveal this line, is actually pretty annoying.  I like to be able to casually navigate without concentrating on my genre/artist structure.  The presence of the breadcrumb line gives me this capability, while the absence of it takes this away.  The question therefore becomes:  Who is impacted more in this situation?  Does hiding this info for "some" of the time really have that much of an impact on the "cleanliness" of the Theater View screen, so much that it outweighs the performance/usage impact it has on people who DO use this info?  Note the comments we've seen about how the absence of this info resulted in some confusion, so I'm not alone in this regard.  Remember that we're all MUCH more familiar with MC and media list navigation in general, so it's easy to forget just how confusing these things can be to others.

You're aware that you can easily add the breadcrumbs trail by doing a simple edit to the skin's xml? Refer jmone's changes in another post. I think this is where this kind of cutomisation belongs so that everyone can have things the way they want (where it makes sense).

It's really not "easy" to the average person, but that aside, the question here is more about what will work best to the "normal" MC user, who is not going to have any concept of editing XML files, and who will likely have a much higher tendency to get "lost," as in Glynor's examples.

Thanks for your feedback,

Larry

[glynor]

I've spent about an hour this morning trying to make a modification to the Obsidian skin to enable always showing the Navigation (Location) roller with absolutely no luck.

I'm able to add a second Location text display if I want, but that's not what I want.  I want the EXISTING navigation roller to not hide.  I suspect that this capability is NOT present with current code.

Matt, could you confirm/deny?  If so, can this be made something defined in the skin?  Is there any good Theater View skinning resource that has been updated at all?

[MrHaugen]

It's really not "easy" to the average person, but that aside, the question here is more about what will work best to the "normal" MC user, who is not going to have any concept of editing XML files, and who will likely have a much higher tendency to get "lost," as in Glynor's examples.

They'd also be much less likely to actually get lost in their rather sparse media collection (sorry if I'm stepping on someones toes here).
I just don't see it. All "normal" users with so many views they don't remember which they are in, or which of the many categories/levels they are in.

Sure there are those who uses our MC, but hopefully there are, or will be, more "normal" that uses this app for them self. Not just family and friends of us MC worshippers

[glynor]

They'd also be much less likely to actually get lost in their rather sparse media collection (sorry if I'm stepping on someones toes here).

Just because someone is a computer neophyte doesn't mean they are a media neophyte.  I know PLENTY of people who have much, much, much larger music and video libraries than I do, but who have trouble with computers.

And I was never talking about having many views.  I was talking about getting lost inside the default views (my "Genre" example above).  Either way, I think the decision has been made.  I just hope we can have the ability to turn it on permanently for those who want it.  Despite the implications above, this is NOT currently true.  There isn't a way (that I can figure out) to do this from within the skin.

[MrHaugen]

Just because someone is a computer neophyte doesn't mean they are a media neophyte.  I know PLENTY of people who have much, much, much larger music and video libraries than I do, but who have trouble with computers.

Yea. You're right about that. I don't know many my self, but I'm sure there are plenty. Never the less I belive there are a lot more people that have a sparse collection, and hopefully they'll also be attracted to MC.

13.0.93 (12/17/2008)
12. Changed: Added a new Theater View top roller item "More" that's independent from the play commands.
13. Changed: The play roller in Theater View remembers the last used playback command (resets on program restart).

Mostly good changes in the latest build. There is two I have a few problems with though.
- The More roller is a good addition imo, but why does it contain play commands like next, play/pause when I expected to find it under the play (all) menu.

- The more roller does NOT remember the last item pressed, but the Play all rolled does. This is a problem for two reasons.
1. When the Play all roller just contains Play all, shuffle all and add all I don't see much of a point in those things being remembered. It expect that people that uses this commands mostly uses Play all. So the remembering for this roller is mostly useless I belive.
2. I've gotten the impression that most people here (looking at the posts) want either Play all or Playing now to be remembered. The More roller don't remember. People with just enter and arrow key remotes might also use Playing now, Next or Play/pause a lot. So why does not this one remember instead? Play all is allready at the top roller.

[glynor]

- The more roller does NOT remember the last item pressed, but the Play all rolled does. This is a problem for two reasons.
1. When the Play all roller just contains Play all, shuffle all and add all I don't see much of a point in those things being remembered. It expect that people that uses this commands mostly uses Play all. So the remembering for this roller is mostly useless I belive.

Read above.  Lots of people want this exact functionality.  Add and Shuffle All will both be useful to me.  However, I'd really prefer to see at least a few more of the other Play commands (especially the single-file "Adds") included under the Play All command.

[lalittle]

They'd also be much less likely to actually get lost in their rather sparse media collection (sorry if I'm stepping on someones toes here).
I just don't see it. All "normal" users with so many views they don't remember which they are in, or which of the many categories/levels they are in.

Sure there are those who uses our MC, but hopefully there are, or will be, more "normal" that uses this app for them self. Not just family and friends of us MC worshippers

I'm actually talking about the straight genre/artist/album view.  People like me are effected by this idea for two reasons:

First, it's because we sometimes get "lost" as you said.  We can't necessarily remember what genre a given artist is in once we're on that artist's albums (is it "Jazz" or "Blues" or perhaps even "Christmas"), or if we drilled into an "All" category, or the menu is currently set with something other than "genre" for the top level.  The time it takes to quickly glance at the breadcrumb is much quicker and easier than navigating to the top to make the breadcrumb path appear and then navigate back down.  Without the breadcrumbs, the process becomes really clumsy to me.

Second, it's sometimes not about the idea that we can't "figure out" which view we're in if we stop and think about it -- we can typically look at the list and deduce our position from what we see.  The problem, once again, is that this is psychologically so "heavy."  It takes "effort" that is not needed if the breadcrumbs are already visible.

I think that some people are prehaps not fully appreciating the idea that a seemingly small amount of extra work can really be "felt" by some of us, and it's frustrating when we're essentially told that the issue we're having is not really a problem.  Just because something does not effect you personally it does not mean that it isn't a valid issue to someone else.

Larry

[MrHaugen]

Read above.  Lots of people want this exact functionality.  Add and Shuffle All will both be useful to me.  However, I'd really prefer to see at least a few more of the other Play commands (especially the single-file "Adds") included under the Play All command.

Read carefully page 1 to 2 in the last days, and searched page 3 for shuffle and Add all. Hardly anyone mentioning they really need this two things remembered.
What I'm trying to say is that Play Now was allways at the top before, and it's probably the most used function of the 3 mentioned. A remember function would be more suited for the More roller as it have more commands like Playing Now, Play/Pause, skip etc, that people might use more often. I'm not saying that the remember function should be removed from the Play All roller. Just that it might be more usefull on the More roller, with the commands that's placed there.

By the way, how is single file actions on the rolles usefull? It would be a lot more buttons/commands. The only thing needed to do is to go down one level and use the All commands, would it not?

[MrHaugen]

I think that some people are just not understanding the idea that a seemingly small amount of extra work can really be "felt" by some of us, and it's frustrating when we're essentially told that the issue we're having is not really a problem.  Just because something does not effect you personally it does not mean that it isn't a valid issue to someone else.

I see you're point. I don't use genre in TV my self. That's probably why I'm having a problem seeing this. I've reconsidered and I'll admit that it would not mind me one way or another. I can see both points. I just hope there is a way to turn it on or off. Either in the skin or in the options.

[lalittle]

I see you're point. I don't use genre in TV my self. That's probably why I'm having a problem seeing this. I've reconsidered and I'll admit that it would not mind me one way or another. I can see both points. I just hope there is a way to turn it on or off. Either in the skript or in the options.

Thanks for the feedback.  I think that you hit upon the reason that some people don't really take this issue too seriously -- if you don't use the breadcrumbs in your style of navigatin, you won't really "feel" how useful this info can be to others.

I'm also holding out hope for the ability to turn it on or off, hopefully as an "option" rather than having to hack the file.

Larry

[gappie]

Thanks for the feedback.  I think that you hit upon the reason that some people don't really take this issue too seriously -- if you don't use the breadcrumbs in your style of navigatin, you won't really "feel" how useful this info can be to others.

I'm also holding out hope for the ability to turn it on or off, hopefully as an "option" rather than having to hack the file.

Larry

yes, you are right there. not only would it be nice to have the breadcrumbs there all the time. would make browsing easier. but estheticaly it would also improve thv. now there is this big empty line..

 
gab

[lalittle]

estheticaly it would also improve Theater View. now there is this big empty line.

An empty line that "sometimes" has breadcrumb info on it and sometimes does not.  My fear is that this itself will confuse people who aren't so familiar with the paradigm, i.e. "where did that info go that showed me my current position?"

Thanks for the feedback,

Larry

[MrHaugen]

estheticaly it would also improve Theater View. now there is this big empty line..

I think that is just one think we have to agree to disagree on that one Either way, I hope that you can make it possible to turn the line allways on or off unless selected, in the skin. Or better yet, as an option.

[park]

I just want to chime in again and say that I totally agree with Larry. Breadcrumbs are absolutely useless unless they are always visible. Further, they are kind of a waste of potential too if they arent used as the navigation interface. Not only can they be used for going backwards and forwards, but they can also do it in the most user intuitive way (you can always see where you are giong back to).

Again, I'd also like to suggest that the breadcrumbs contain (slightly greyed out is fine) all the categories in a view. As you make choices in the list these category names would change to become "breadcrumbs" showing you what you chose. Here is an example:

I enter my "Movies" view. I can see the following in the breadcrumbs roller:
Genres    Keywords    Albums

As I make choices and filter into the list the breadcrumbs come to look like this:
Kung Fu    Shaw Bros movies    Albums


With the above example, anybody could open MC on my computer at any time and bowse my movies and and not be totally overwhelmed by all the lists that get thrown at them. All the info they need to see what they are doing is right up there for them to see.

[park]

Also, if we had breadcumbs to navigate by, then we could remove "back" from the top roller and replace it with "Home" whcih would be really handy for jumping back to the top screen.

[glynor]

Also, if we had breadcumbs to navigate by, then we could remove "back" from the top roller and replace it with "Home" whcih would be really handy for jumping back to the top screen.

Read above... I considered all the results of this in great detail.