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[tunetyme]

Things we're still asking for:

* Completely automatic perfect beat-matching transitions and switch tracks anytime without losing the beat.
* A way to see track status in an inactive zone (specifically time left on a playing track)
* User settable cue in and out points for each track in the library [iTunes has this feature]
* Support for USB Midi DJ controllers [this would need more definition]
* Per track transitions in a playlist [silence, crossfade, etc.]
* Add key determination (G, Bb, etc.) to audio analysis
* Configurable crossfade types, with pictures so we know what the fade looks like

For me key determination is the top priority as a part of the audio analysis.
It might be helpful to be able to adjust the gain in the playlist.
I really like the idea of being able to store the transition in a playlist.  Do you envision this to apply when you burn a CD as well?

Tunetyme

[keither]

I'm not burning CDs, and I really only need the track-by transitions in Playing Now - but I figure once it's in playing now, it's part of the database and should be more valuable to other people who are creating playlists ahead of time.

I would guess that having the ability to burn those tracked transitions would be a separate feature.

[JimH]

Thanks for the report (and the purchase). 

[tunetyme]

Keither:

Have you ever put together a great playlist at a club that is truely and inspiration?  Wouldn't it be nice to be able to hear it again in the car or at the office?  That's why I would love to be able to create CD's with the transitions stored in the playlists.  I understand as a DJ, you do things based on the mood and feedback that you get from the crowd.  For me, a great playlist that captures the right mood is worth its weight in gold.  That is the primary reason that I have loaded all my music on my PC.  I want to be able to create playlists or CD's that I can listen to in other environments.  One example is, what I call, rainy day jazz that is 5 hours of great music for a Sunday afternoon or of course a rainy day.  Everyone who has heard the playlist loves its’ smooth transitions and how it completely captures the mood with its' fluctuating intensity just like the rain.

This is why key determination would be so helpful for me to develop playlists and being able to store the transition in the playlist itself along with adjustments in gain would be ideal.  That way I don't have to alter the original information stored from the CD. 

[keither]

The developer in me wants to ask this question:

How do you burn a CD with transitions that aren't "gapless" or "silence"?  Where do you put the track divider when you're crossfading between two tracks?

I think there's an argument that you could "render" the playlist to a single long audio file.

Would having tracks on the CD be important?

[mojave]

I just tested something to see if it would work for recording crossfades. I used Tools > Advanced Tools > Record Sound. Under the Recorder Options, I set my recording device to "What You Hear." This is available depending on your soundcard drivers. I then recorded the last part of one song and the crossfade into the next. It worked great. If I wanted to do a whole CD, I would setup my playlist, start the recorder, play the playlist. When finished, I would make a Cue file with the actual track lengths of each song. Then I would use the Cue file to split up the files into tracks. I would then burn the CD (you might be able to burn from a Cue file, but I haven't tried it).

[tunetyme]

I don't think it is required to have individual tracks on a CD.  This is a situation where you are listening to the playlist and since every song is great with great transitions who would want to skip a track.  It isn't about a list of songs but how it makes your audience feel and do as you play that sequence of songs.

As I see it for you and other DJ's, you could put together one of your great sets and be able to use it as a marketing tool.  You could demonstrate different styles for different kinds of situations from a club to a wedding and everything in between.  The CD is still the common denominator.  Everybody has a player

[keither]

If you don't care about tracking it out, why not use a diskwriter plugin (I know that Winamp has it, but haven't bothered to look at MC) and just play your setlist from start to finish?  Then you'd have a .wav file you could burn (either from MC or Nero or whatever).

[tunetyme]

If you don't care about tracking it out, why not use a diskwriter plugin (I know that Winamp has it, but haven't bothered to look at MC) and just play your setlist from start to finish? 

I'll check that out.  Does anyone know if this can be done in MC?

[keither]

I just tested something to see if it would work for recording crossfades. I used Tools > Advanced Tools > Record Sound. Under the Recorder Options, I set my recording device to "What You Hear." This is available depending on your soundcard drivers. I then recorded the last part of one song and the crossfade into the next. It worked great. If I wanted to do a whole CD, I would setup my playlist, start the recorder, play the playlist. When finished, I would make a Cue file with the actual track lengths of each song. Then I would use the Cue file to split up the files into tracks. I would then burn the CD (you might be able to burn from a Cue file, but I haven't tried it).

This seems to be a likely option, Tunetyme.

[Alex B]

If you don't care about tracking it out, why not use a diskwriter plugin (I know that Winamp has it, but haven't bothered to look at MC)

In MC, Playback Options > Output Mode: Disk Writer

It has been there at least since MJ8. It has an option to create separate track files and it preserves all set DSP and or cross-fade effects. It creates the wave files as fast as the PC can process them (it is a lot faster than real-time). MC's burner can burn the resulting files without adding any silent gaps.

[keither]

This implies, then, that if we did alter a playlist to have per track transitions and cue in/out, then we'd immediately get the ability to diskwrite it out and burn it.  There ya go, Tunetyme - a feature you wanted is already there!

[tunetyme]

I will be using it this weekend!!!

[suzieg]

Keither,
Thank you so much for starting this thread.  I second your list of requests, especially the cue in and cue out times.  Administrators, I haven't seen a response to the cue in/cue out request.  Is this possible, likely, in process?

Can anyone point me to a thread on how to preview with headphones without changing zones?  I am about to dive into that.

Thanks,
Suzie

[laerm]

i looked at this thread about a month ago (as they say, it pertains to my interests), and was surprised nobody mentioned how poorly MC determines track BPMs. then when i looked at it just now, i was really surprised nobody brought it up. surely i can't be the only one who's seen this?

now i recognise that automagically determining a BPM isn't the easiest, and MC is right about half of the time (within a few BPM of actual). 25% of the time, it's on a ratio of the actual BPM. usually it's about 66% of the actual, or 125%, or 166%, or 50%, or something. those i was willing to call ok, figuring that they'd have complex rhythms. i took a look at the tracks in my collection that are somewhat, though, and they're not at all complex. i thought they would be drum'n'bass or jazz or something, but a lot are regular tracks or even something super-simple like techno.

anyways, the other 25% of the time, it's just plan wrong, and there's no identifiable pattern to it.

usually what i do is, after importing, i re-analyse the BPMs using a program called "mixmeister bpm analyzer". that program is hardly ever wrong, and if it is, it's within 1 BPM of the correct number.

so, i recognise this is probably not very high on the j. river priority list, but i am curious if anyone else has problems with inaccurate BPMs in the collection, and if j. river would consider taking a look at their algorithms for analysing this. (i wouldn't think of suggesting they copy what the mixmeister program does, but it is right 99% of the time...)

thanks!
micah

[tunetyme]

Yes, I have the same problem with BPM.  I suggest that you start a new thread to address the bug.

[keither]

Can anyone point me to a thread on how to preview with headphones without changing zones?  I am about to dive into that.

Here's how I do it - I actually use my main zone as the "background zone" and then preview on the "foreground zone".  The most action that goes on is the preview zone, while the output zone tends to just be sitting there playing tracks.

You can send tracks from one zone to another by using the right-click menu / Send To / Play (Zone Name)... / Add

So, I'll be sitting there playing my tracks to my headphones in the Preview zone, and when I find a song I'd like to add to the main mix, I use the right click menu.  (After the first time you do this, the buried command sticks to the top of your right-click menu.)

Make sense?

[keither]

Things we've gotten:

* VST Plugin Support
* Repeat Mode : Stop After Each File [Single mode on CD players]
* The ability to have each zone's playing now as a separate view in split views

Things we're still asking for:

* Completely automatic perfect beat-matching transitions and switch tracks anytime without losing the beat.
* A way to see track status in an inactive zone (specifically time left on a playing track)
* User settable cue in and out points for each track in the library [iTunes has this feature]
* Support for USB Midi DJ controllers [this would need more definition]
* Per track transitions in a playlist [silence, crossfade, etc.]
* Add key determination (G, Bb, etc.) to audio analysis
* Configurable crossfade types, with pictures so we know what the fade looks like
* Improved BMP analysis / functionality

[laerm]

* Add key determination (G, Bb, etc.) to audio analysis
* Improved BMP analysis / functionality

whew, good luck getting the key analysis. neither traktor nor live do that, and if they don't, then i think MC is going to be hard pressed to pull it off.

as i said, though, i think better BPM analysis is very doable (based on what other software packages can do).

micah

[keither]

Mostly, I'm trying to just aggregate requests.  I don't feel it's my place to filter or sort, since I'm not on the dev team.  If we hear from the dev team that a feature is off the agenda, then I'll strike it from the list. 

[tunetyme]

For those who are not familiar with key analysis here is a good link that provides some good info about what it is and how it is used:
http://www.mixedinkey.com/Homepage.aspx
This is not the only provider.

As for other DJ software this software will work with them (Traktor, Mixmeister, etc.) 

I agree that we need to have all the basics working flawlessly before tackling something new.  BPM is certainly fixable, in its' current state it isn't a reliable tool.  I still haven't figured out how to use "Intensity" or what it was designed to tell me about the song.

I looked at a lot of the DJ software before I bought MC.  While they have some features that I would love to have when it comes to building and mixing playlists I find that they have other serious flaws such as lack of compatibility to formats other than MP3 & WAV.  The databases are weak at best and have little or no flexibility to build in your own info into the database.  With all that said, I still have to maintain 2 players and databases (MC & dbpoweramp) so I can get some of my data out and use it it in other applications. (I can't get Word, Excel, or Access to import the HTML export from MC.) 

Personally, I think that if JRiver worked with the above and some others like IZotope there could be some revenue sharing benefit for JRiver and perhaps a discount for us too.

[mobyfrag]

Great link tunetyme!
Thank you dude

[laerm]

For those who are not familiar with key analysis here is a good link that provides some good info about what it is and how it is used:
http://www.mixedinkey.com/Homepage.aspx

hunh, i didn't know about this. interesting. i wonder how it works...? but hey, it has pete tong's endorsement, so good enough for me!

I agree that we need to have all the basics working flawlessly before tackling something new.  BPM is certainly fixable, in its' current state it isn't a reliable tool.  I still haven't figured out how to use "Intensity" or what it was designed to tell me about the song.

i have no idea what intensity is for. i would love to know. as best as i can figure, it has something to do with RMS level.

micah

[Araj]

Just found this thread (thanks keither!)
+1 for key analysis. This would be a big plus for me. I use MixedInKey but find it tedious because there's no automation in there - plus you need an internet connection so it's useless live or on the go.

[keither]

Hey Matt,

With trial versions of MC14 available, can you comment on whether any of our feature requests are on the roadmap?  I know you said that being able to sequence plugins was not likely to make it into MC13.  Will it make MC14?  What about our other features?

Many thanks.  I hope to see continued improvement and will gladly go on and pay the upgrade price for MC14 today if there will be continued support for us.

Thanks!

-Keith

[Tanguero]

A suggestion for the view implementation, based on the fact that we can now have two Playing Nows (which I really like):

Introduce a mixed horizontal/vertical view split with one top view and two bottom views side by side. The top view could then be used for the library or playlists, bottom left for "Playing Now - Headphones" and the bottom right view for "Playing Now - Speakers".

That would give a good overview as well as easy drag-and-drop additions to Playing Now - with less risk of dropping tracks at the wrong Playing Now.

[keither]

Hey Matt,

With trial versions of MC14 available, can you comment on whether any of our feature requests are on the roadmap?  I know you said that being able to sequence plugins was not likely to make it into MC13.  Will it make MC14?  What about our other features?

Many thanks.  I hope to see continued improvement and will gladly go on and pay the upgrade price for MC14 today if there will be continued support for us.

Thanks!

-Keith

Just checking back in and bumping the topic.

Thanks!

[hit_ny]

Was wondering whether there was any interest in easi(er) pitch and tempo control.

At the moment you need to go into the DSP Studio dialog to do any adjustments.

I was thinking if there was a way to send a message to either increment/decrement either, then skins in the future could feature a button to do the job.

Much faster to adjust both parameters in this way

[keither]

Just checking back in and bumping the topic.

Thanks!

[StFeder]

Was wondering whether there was any interest in easi(er) pitch and tempo control.

+1 for tempo control! Pitch control isn't so important, is it?

[laerm]

+1 for tempo control! Pitch control isn't so important, is it?

let's take a step back here. adding things like tempo control puts MC down the road to being a piece of software for djing, and there are already several pieces of software that do this (some of which do it very well). in my mind, adding something like this would "dilute the brand" of MC. if the development team knew djing, they'd either have already added this feature or done a piece of software for djing. i think this would be leading them down a path where they aren't experts.

am i making any sense?

micah

[hit_ny]

No, you are not making much sense 

The function requested would mostly be used with a skin that was aware of this capability. It involves no GUI rework whatsover or any other changes ie its a trivial addition as the functionality already exists.

Anyway..its up to the ppl that DJ to decide.

+1 for tempo control! Pitch control isn't so important, is it?

I guess

[laerm]

The function requested would mostly be used with a skin that was aware of this capability. It involves no GUI rework whatsover or any other changes ie its a trivial addition.

good point, i hadn't considered that only certain skins would take advantage of that. on the other hand, if MC's BPM analysis is so poor, i doubt that they'd be able to add beat-accurate time-stretching/-compression.

sorry if it sounds harsh, just calling it the way it is. MC does one thing great, and i worry if they decide to add something else, done poorly, what we have now will degrade. it can't be everything to everyone.

of course, if they do decide to add some of these features and manage to do it well, i'll gladly eat all of my words.

micah

[keither]

Why couldn't the responsibility of ensuring the bpm for the track is correct be left to the user?  If the adjusted bpm were just based on the percentage pitch/tempo change and the bpm field, then there wouldn't be anything really to worry about, would there?

[laerm]

Why couldn't the responsibility of ensuring the bpm for the track is correct be left to the user?  If the adjusted bpm were just based on the percentage pitch/tempo change and the bpm field, then there wouldn't be anything really to worry about, would there?

yes, sure, but MC's analysis of a track's BPM now is off most of the time. if the user has to determine the BPM on their own and then input it, well, that kind of defeats the point of having djing software.

micah

[keither]

Heh.  I guess that as a swing dance DJ, my motivation was never to get MC to beat-match.  I'm just looking for features to make previewing and playing of tracks in a live setting easier.  MC's library is second to none, but for jazz and blues tracks there's not a bpm counter out there that can get them right.

[laerm]

Heh.  I guess that as a swing dance DJ, my motivation was never to get MC to beat-match.  I'm just looking for features to make previewing and playing of tracks in a live setting easier.  MC's library is second to none, but for jazz and blues tracks there's not a bpm counter out there that can get them right.

well, you're all set then.

micah

[keither]

Hahaha.  I've got 5 or 6 things I'd like to see still.

[hit_ny]

Why couldn't the responsibility of ensuring the bpm for the track is correct be left to the user?  If the adjusted bpm were just based on the percentage pitch/tempo change and the bpm field, then there wouldn't be anything really to worry about, would there?

Thats what i was suggesting, many times you only want to bump the speed up or down say 5% of the tempo.

This has absolutely nothing to with BPM analysis, its what you woud do on pre-listening. I dont think its clear to some that this is already there, its just more cumbersome to get to than a click.

Player->Playback Options->DSP Options->Tempo & Pitch

See the tempo slider in there

[JimH]

Hahaha.  I've got 5 or 6 things I'd like to see still.

How about posting your top 5, in order of importance?  We might do a couple in the next month.

[tunetyme]

For me, my top two are both audio analysis tools:

getting the BPM right, this is a very useful tool when selecting songs if it is accurate

Add key determination (G, Bb, etc.) to audio analysis, when used with the Camelot mixing wheel you can mix songs that are in harmony as well as tempo (BPM).   This really takes you to the next level.

Tunetyme

[keither]

Let's see - in order of importance:

1.  Plug-in ordering in the DSP section
2.  Settings memory for VST plugins
3.  Some way to view the current track status of a zone from it's playing now view
4.  Cue in/out points per track (iTunes has this)

Those are my big ones.

Here's another interesting thought - is there some way to visually indicate in the program which fields in the database can be stored in a file's tags and which ones are only stored in the database?

[Matt]

Coming build build 55 and later (available in about a week):

NEW: DSP Studio supports ordering of effects. (drag items in list to reorder)
NEW: VST DSP plug-ins remember the program and program settings between runs of the program.

[Matt]

getting the BPM right, this is a very useful tool when selecting songs if it is accurate

Perhaps you could post five popular songs that you think BPM is getting wrong?

Thanks.

[Matt]

4.  Cue in/out points per track (iTunes has this)

We'll make 'Playback Range' user editable in a coming build.

You can put values like:

Times:
0:00-3:15
0:00.23-3:15.78

Milliseconds:
0-195000.243

The decimal allows accuracy right down to the sample if you need it.  This system is already used for CUE files, so it's well tested and well supported.

Someday we might wrap it with a fancy user interface, but this should at leave give you the functionality.

[bunglemebaby]

Add key determination (G, Bb, etc.) to audio analysis, when used with the Camelot mixing wheel you can mix songs that are in harmony as well as tempo (BPM).   This really takes you to the next level.

Personally, I think it would be more prudent to simply support importing this data from other sources. In general, the audio analysis of MC is pretty basic, which is reasonable considering the general market. There are other programs out there that spend all of their time developing algorithms to do things like key determination and as such should do a much better job than MC at it. If MC can simply support importing data from other tools that specialize in audio analysis, I'd be a happy camper.
That said, I've had a fair amount of luck importing data into customized fields, so if you've already got another tool for analyzing audio and know what tag fields it stores that data in you can probably have this data in MC as is.

[hit_ny]

We'll make 'Playback Range' user editable in a coming build.

You can put values like:

Times:
0:00-3:15
0:00.23-3:15.78

Milliseconds:
0-195000.243

This is nice but does anyone think there would be a need to override playback range at any time ?

As once its set then it will always play that way, unless reset.

Here's how to query which tracks have playback range set ?

-playbackrange=[]

[Alex B]

The playback range values will be stored in the database.

It might be a good idea to use a separate library for DJ'ing so that the stored ranges would not disrupt regular playback.

[keither]

We'll make 'Playback Range' user editable in a coming build.

That's perfect.  I had always wondered why that field wasn't editable.  

Perhaps an advanced checkbox option in playback could disable it?  Also, is there any way to write out (at a minimum) the 'start' point into the tags in a way that Traktor can read it?  Traktor saves cue points in the tags, and it'd be great if I could drag a file from MC into Traktor and have it cued up to where I set the start point in MC.

[tunetyme]

Add key determination (G, Bb, etc.) to audio analysis, when used with the Camelot mixing wheel you can mix songs that are in harmony as well as tempo (BPM).   This really takes you to the next level.

Personally, I think it would be more prudent to simply support importing this data from other sources. In general, the audio analysis of MC is pretty basic, which is reasonable considering the general market. There are other programs out there that spend all of their time developing algorithms to do things like key determination and as such should do a much better job than MC at it. If MC can simply support importing data from other tools that specialize in audio analysis, I'd be a happy camper.
That said, I've had a fair amount of luck importing data into customized fields, so if you've already got another tool for analyzing audio and know what tag fields it stores that data in you can probably have this data in MC as is.

bunglemebaby

I hear you.  There is more to mixing harmonically than just storing the information in a database.  Take some time and look at http://www.mixshare.com/ "Rapid Evolution" or RE.  It is free.  What you will notice is that not only does it determine and store the key but it also highlights all the potential songs that will mix harmonically.  I have over 18,000 songs.  I need tools that will speed up the process of selecting songs and making playlists.  I can select a style and narrow down the field of choices very quickly.  My objective is to get the benefit of my entire database of songs not just the ones that I have rated 4 or 5 stars.  Even the 2 star songs have a place in different mixes.  They can sound great when they have the right song preceding them.  For the average listener they want to hear their favorites and they play them over and over.  I strive to broaden my music appreciation by building lists that include 2 and 3 star rated songs. 

What RE does is identifies songs with compatible keys.  They highlight the compatible song with different highlighting to help you choose the next song that will blend both harmonically and tempo (BPM).  If you just want to play your favorites then this isn't for you.  But if you want to create a certain ambiance for a dinner party and then lead into some dance music or some nice background music for conversation then this will help you do it.  It is great to be able to create days of music to play in the background while you work.  When it is mixed harmonically each song blends into the next with no apparent transition. 

A really skilled DJ can take a crowd and move them from each extreme of emotions.  I love having a playlist that takes me down from a day in the office and then sets the mood for a nice quiet dinner with my wife and then...

There is another good site http://www.harmonic-mixing.com/ that will help you understand the benefits of harmonic mixing.

As for MC, it is a great software for managing all your media.  It has a solid database and is very capable of handling a lot of things that I will never use it for.  I am interested in music and I would like to have one software package that does music exceptionally well.  The whole idea of putting my music on my PC is so I can get it out in a pleasing sequence for me and my friends.  Over the last few years, MC has been focused on adding new features to everything except the music portion of the program.  There are many new developments that are creating competition for MC and our desiring that MC keeps up with the times is the objective.

As for importing and exporting the database and integrating it with other information, I would certainly welcome the ability to do that.  I still can't read my exported HTML format from MC.  I have requested that we be able to export it to a flat file or better yet be able to select the fields and sequence so I could import it to Excel or Access.  That is a seperate issue.

Tunetyme