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[Chili-Jam]

I have had one issue in Theaterview on my HTPC: browsing could get completely stuck and i had to wait for say 15 sec to change views.
Finally i found what caused this. There is the option to select your graphic card perfomance (can't look at MC at the moment so don't know the exact menu items).
I was able to test all versions of anti-aliasing BUT as soon as i switched the "sync-option" on
navigation got stuck.

I understand it may have nothing to do with your problems but then it's only a small click to switch synch framerate off and maybe it helps.

Good luck.

[rpalmer68]

Can we stay a second more with your MPG files? What's the source for them? DVD rips, broadcasts, home made, something else? What are the filters used when you play one of these files? I'm aiming not only for the Cyberlink Video decoder but also what is the splitter filter used. If you use a mixed combination certain filters may work together but not very well, resulting in unnecessary long time to parse the files and decode them properly.

I have tried to replicate your described behavior but couldn't really. Maybe there is a penalty when files are indexed/thumbnails are created but that's only if I lock an arrow key and force the program to scroll at max speed for no good use. It's light years away from the slowness you describe. Something's not OK. I have seen this behavior with MC struggling to create thumbnails for certain files (with CPU % shot to hell) but that was only when the DirectShow decoding chain wasn't the best. That's why I'd like to know what are all filters used on your side for MPG.

As a rule of thumb I'd use filters from the same source - all Microsoft, all Cyberlink (and unrelated to your problem I have zero confidence in these ones) or, my fav choice, the filters from MPC-Home Cinema (all of them, file source, splitters, decoders, etc). But that's just me.

I've not done anythig with the filesource or splitter as I really wouldn't know what to use, I'm using the cyberlink filter and VMR7 renderer as this gives the smootest playabck for me.  Having said that I'm not fussed what I end up using as long as the results are good.

The files are recordings from DVB-T broadcasts in either SD (the majority) or HD (although still .mpg files so no REAL HD I guess).

Here's the graph playing back a file,

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'Video Renderer'
        CLSID: {B87BEB7B-8D29-423F-AE4D-6582C10175AC}
        Host: C:\WINDOWS\system32\quartz.dll
        Input Pin 'VMR Input0'
            Connected to pin 'Video Out' of filter 'CyberLink Video/SP Decoder (PDVD7)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {1B81BE0C-A0C7-11D3-B984-00C04F2E73C5}, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'VMR Input1'

    Filter 'ReClock Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {9DC15360-914C-46B8-B9DF-BFE67FD36C6A}
        Host: C:\Program Files\ReClock\ReClock.dll
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'AC3Filter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'CyberLink Video/SP Decoder (PDVD7)'
        CLSID: {8ACD52ED-9C2D-4008-9129-DCE955D86065}
        Host: C:\Program Files\CyberLink\PowerDVD\VideoFilter\CLVsd.ax
        Input Pin 'Video In'
            Connected to pin 'Video' of filter 'MPEG-2 Demultiplexer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Video Out'
            Connected to pin 'VMR Input0' of filter 'Video Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {1B81BE0C-A0C7-11D3-B984-00C04F2E73C5}, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'SubPicture In'
        Output Pin '~Closed Caption Out'

    Filter 'AC3Filter'
        CLSID: {A753A1EC-973E-4718-AF8E-A3F554D45C44}
        Host: C:\Program Files\AC3Filter\ac3filter.ax
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Mpeg-1' of filter 'MPEG-2 Demultiplexer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_AUDIO, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ReClock Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'MPEG-2 Demultiplexer'
        CLSID: {AFB6C280-2C41-11D3-8A60-0000F81E0E4A}
        Host: C:\WINDOWS\system32\mpg2splt.ax
        Input Pin 'MPEG-2 Stream'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'T:\general\(2009-08-27 19-55) Catalyst ABC1.mpg'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Stream  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_PROGRAM, Format type TIME_FORMAT_NONE
        Output Pin 'Mpeg-1'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'AC3Filter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_AUDIO, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'Video In' of filter 'CyberLink Video/SP Decoder (PDVD7)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO

    Filter 'T:\general\(2009-08-27 19-55) Catalyst ABC1.mpg'
        CLSID: {E436EBB5-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}
        Host: C:\WINDOWS\system32\quartz.dll
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'MPEG-2 Stream' of filter 'MPEG-2 Demultiplexer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Stream  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_PROGRAM, Format type TIME_FORMAT_NONE
I'm all ears on any suggestions!

Cheers
Richard

[rpalmer68]

Richard, I know we have similar setups but my htpcs are dual cores only. I too see what you describe but very rarely and no where near as severe as you describe.

As a work-around, you could disable auto import and script a job to import files only when mc is idle.  I have some ideas on this if you're interested.

 I could do that, but would prefer not to unless I can't find another solution.

Can you remind me what filters/splitters etc you're running for your webscheduler recording playback?  Oh but you're using dvr-ms files still arent you?   For some reason I cant use them because they will only play back on the PC they are recorded on, they just stutter terribly if I try to play then on any other PC... never have worked out why!

Sigh... audio playback was so simple

Cheers
Richard

[Matt]

I could do that, but would prefer not to unless I can't find another solution.

Can you remind me what filters/splitters etc you're running for your webscheduler recording playback?  Oh but you're using dvr-ms files still arent you?   For some reason I cant use them because they will only play back on the PC they are recorded on, they just stutter terribly if I try to play then on any other PC... never have worked out why!

Sigh... audio playback was so simple

Cheers
Richard

We run JRWorker.exe, which analyzes or thumbnails videos, as a separate program with the lowest process priority.  The system should never give it cycles when playback, which is a higher priority, needs the cycles.

However, it seems like there's still some resource that JRWorker and playback conflict over.  Perhaps it's GPU related instead of CPU related, or physical memory related?

We see a couple options:
1) Better make JRWorker.exe work at a very low priority -- but I'm not sure if there's anymore we can do
OR
2) Disable auto-import work during Display View playback

Thoughts?

[Matt]

Just another little note.

Version 14 of Media Center imports two files at a time instead of one.  This means two JRWorker.exe processes if two videos are importing.

Thumbnailing uses a more advanced quota system to decide how many concurrent processes to spin up.  It normally works out to two thumbnails at a time for video.  However, auto-import will only ever do one at a time since it's designed to be a background task.

I wonder if the amount of parallelism in the import engine should scale based on whether it's a user-requested (foreground) or auto-import (background) task?  Of course, if thread and process priorities work, you shouldn't really have to be afraid of extra threads.

[glynor]

2) Disable auto-import work during Display View playback

Thoughts?

Yes.  On both really, if #1 is possible, but mostly #2.  And Thumbnailing too.

In my case, I don't think it really is so much the Auto-Import that is slowing things down as the Thumbnailing.  I suspect the problem is that the Filters used to decode the videos don't always respect the thread priority of JRWorker.exe, or at least don't play nicely with multiple instances of each other running, particularly in "startup" (or perhaps it is simple disk throughput or something).

One easy to replicate example I can think of is this:

1. Set Media Player Classic to allow multiple instances started from file.  View --> Options.  Then Choose Player in the tree on the left, and change Open options to "Open a new player for each media file played".
2. Open a high-quality file in MPC.  Preferably one that uses Haali and FFDSHOW to decode.  Something like a x264 MKV would be perfect.  Let it play for a few seconds.
3. Then open a few more other (similar) files in second, third, and fourth copies of MPC.

If you do this, at least on all of my systems, the video playback in the first copy of MPC will "pause" for a second or two while the new instance is loading.  Once they are loaded, then everything "springs" back to life and they can play concurrently.  This happens to me even if I'm loading the multiple files off of different physical disks, though it does seem to be slightly worse if they are all on the same disk (which makes some sense as the drive head seeks to find the new spot).

I think this is a bit of a microcosm of what we are seeing in MC when it is launching multiple thumbnail worker threads.  Once they are launched, they could "play" fine.  The problem is that they don't really "play" they just render a frame and then quit and launch a new thread, and I think it is sending the Windows scheduler into a tizzy.  Even if they all have low priority, this constant loading and unloading of filter resources (not to mention disk head seeking) is bound to draw some substantial resources.

That's all fine, so long as you aren't doing something that has zero tolerance for latency, like full-screen video playback does.

[Daydream]

One easy to replicate example I can think of is this:

1. Set Media Player Classic to allow multiple instances started from file.  View --> Options.  Then Choose Player in the tree on the left, and change Open options to "Open a new player for each media file played".
2. Open a high-quality file in MPC.  Preferably one that uses Haali and FFDSHOW to decode.  Something like a x264 MKV would be perfect.  Let it play for a few seconds.
3. Then open a few more other (similar) files in second, third, and fourth copies of MPC.

May I point that the OP talked about MPG files. With MPG files I can run a test like above (of course without Haali and ffdshow) and nothing fails, stutters or stumble (in MPC). The first file keeps on playing fluently as the rest open and play. Overall this discussion may prove that parallelism is somewhat taxing but that may become noticeable just because a not-optimal DirectShow decoder chain is being used, so a certain lag gets multiplied.

I mean looking at the above filter graph, the splitter is from MS, the audio decoder/renderer is a combination of AC3 Filter and Reclock, the video decoder is from Cyberlink... I'm not saying that it shouldn't work but would it work fast, in parallel? Hmmm...

[rpalmer68]

May I point that the OP talked about MPG files. With MPG files I can run a test like above (of course without Haali and ffdshow) and nothing fails, stutters or stumble (in MPC). The first file keeps on playing fluently as the rest open and play. Overall this discussion may prove that parallelism is somewhat taxing but that may become noticeable just because a not-optimal DirectShow decoder chain is being used, so a certain lag gets multiplied.

I mean looking at the above filter graph, the splitter is from MS, the audio decoder/renderer is a combination of AC3 Filter and Reclock, the video decoder is from Cyberlink... I'm not saying that it shouldn't work but would it work fast, in parallel? Hmmm...

So can you suggest a DirestShow chain I can test/try as an alternative that you think might render better performance results?

R

[rpalmer68]

Thanks everybody, some interesting thoughts/points being raised here.

I will just mention a couple of things.


1) Initial Auto-import on MC Load
When I first launch MC14 and start browsing in theater view it can take several seconds for MC to action my key presses.  So I can press UP and then wait 3 or 4 seconds until the cursor actually moves, then it will take a few more seconds until the next key press is actioned.  This goes on for several (6 or more) minutes (importing 50 files or so).
During this time there are usually 4 JWorker.exe threads running, and they float between 5 and 23% utilization each.
This is obviously while auto-import is importing the 50 or so .mpg TV recordings I have on the local D: drive.
I can improve things by disabling the thumbnailing during the import, then things import and perform a lot better, BUT when browsing my views in theater View I get very stuttery movement while MC builds the thumbnails for each view I go into.

2) Stuttering during plaback
I'll get a couple of seconds of BAD stutter when a new file (.mpg) is imported in the background during video playback.  Audio/video will get out of sync for several seconds after this and then it all settles down and plays normally again.
It doesn't matter if I'm using the same or different filters for the playback.  For example, the graph below can be in use for video playkack and when a .mlg file is imported (using my previous graph posted) I'll still get the big stutter.

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'Video Renderer'
        CLSID: {B87BEB7B-8D29-423F-AE4D-6582C10175AC}
        Host: C:\WINDOWS\system32\quartz.dll
        Input Pin 'VMR Input0'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YUY2, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'VMR Input1'

    Filter 'ReClock Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {9DC15360-914C-46B8-B9DF-BFE67FD36C6A}
        Host: C:\Program Files\ReClock\ReClock.dll
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
        CLSID: {04FE9017-F873-410E-871E-AB91661A4EF7}
        Host: C:\Program Files\Combined Community Codec Pack\Filters\FFDShow\ffdshow.ax
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Stream 00' of filter 'AVI Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {44495658-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'VMR Input0' of filter 'Video Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YUY2, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'In Text'

    Filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder'
        CLSID: {0F40E1E5-4F79-4988-B1A9-CC98794E6B55}
        Host: C:\Program Files\Combined Community Codec Pack\Filters\FFDShow\ffdshow.ax
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ReClock Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Stream 01' of filter 'AVI Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {00000055-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'AVI Splitter'
        CLSID: {1B544C20-FD0B-11CE-8C63-00AA0044B51E}
        Host: C:\WINDOWS\system32\quartz.dll
        Output Pin 'Stream 00'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {44495658-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo
        Output Pin 'Stream 01'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Audio Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {00000055-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Input Pin 'input pin'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'X:\Video\TV Series\Frasier\Season 2\S02E01 - Slow Tango in South Seattle.avi'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Stream  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_Avi, Format type TIME_FORMAT_NONE

    Filter 'X:\Video\TV Series\Frasier\Season 2\S02E01 - Slow Tango in South Seattle.avi'
        CLSID: {E436EBB5-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}
        Host: C:\WINDOWS\system32\quartz.dll
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'input pin' of filter 'AVI Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Stream  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_Avi, Format type TIME_FORMAT_NONE

So stopping background importing etc during playback would solve #2, but it obviously won't resolve #1 which basically makes MC unusable for 5 or 6 minutes after its initially loaded, and often when people are wanting to use it.

Maybe Glynor is right, it may be a windows scheduling/queuing issue (along with filters etc I'm sure), I really don't know, or maybe MC does need to limit the number of threads back to just one file being imported at a time... not sure.


Matt, when MC imports does it build just the video side of the graph to determing  details and create thumbnails or does it build the audio side too?  Would this make any difference?  Just thinking it would at least remove the audio filters etc out of the equation...


Cheers
Richard

[Alex B]

   Filter 'ReClock Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {9DC15360-914C-46B8-B9DF-BFE67FD36C6A}
        Host: C:\Program Files\ReClock\ReClock.dll
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'AC3Filter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

ReClock might well be causing the problem (or making it more severe) if it really gets loaded always when JRWorker accesses a video file. ReClock always analyses the file format when playback starts and depending on the result it can change the frame rate and start audio resampler. This causes additional resource usage and delay.

ReClock is a nice filter for playback (essential for some users), but it is useless for thumbnailing. You can set JRWorker as "never load" in ReClock's options if you have not already done that.

[rpalmer68]

ReClock is a nice filter for playback (essential for some users), but it is useless for thumbnailing. You can set JRWorker as "never load" in ReClock's options if you have not already done that.

Thanks Alex,
I find reclock invaluable over here in PAL land as I'm always having to deal with different video frame rates when watching non-PAL sources and I use it to switch my monitor refresh rate to match the video source as well.

I have set Jworker.exe to "Never Load" in the reclock options, but if JWorker is loading it itself then maybe you're right... hence the question on if the audio part of the graph is or needs to be loaded for impoirt/thumbnailing.

I'll try taking reclock out sometime today to see if it makes any difference...
 
Cheers
Richard

[Daydream]

So can you suggest a DirestShow chain I can test/try as an alternative that you think might render better performance results?

R

If you're willing let's try this:
- get the MPC-HC standalone filters from here (MPC-Standalone Filters.1.3.1249.0.(x86).zip) - keeping it simple, 32bit versions
- open the zip somewhere and register (only): mpadecfilter.ax, mpcvideodec.ax, mpeg2decfilter.ax, mpegsplitter.ax (registering is done with regsvr32 x:\[path to filter]\[filter file] from Run..., from a commandline window, etc)
- set up MC to use only  them since you already have other filters. That would be the MS source filter (sorry can't recall with what name exactly is coming up, it's the quartz.dll file), OpenSource MPEG splitter as the splitter filter, Gabest Audio decoder as the audio decoder, OpenSource MPEG2Dec Filter for playing MPEG, MPEG-2 and whatever else MC lists in that category. No Reclock, nothing else. JRiver bitrate monitor can stay, that's fine.
- Make sure the files play and there are no x filters to do the same job, daisy chained (i.e. if you see Gabest Audio decoder AND Ac3Filter showing up together it's not good, go in Ac3Filter and disable its use for everything from its own control panel, System tab). We wanna make sure the playback it's working with minimum filters. Will check for subtleties later.
- Index some more stuff with make thumbnails on. See if there is any difference.

If there is a difference than the decoding chain is the problem (or possible something else we haven't accounted for). If there is no difference I guess we can concentrate our attention to parallelism, although personally I don't see anything wrong with it (but my indexing and thumb-nailing technique might differ significantly from other users).

[jmone]

OK - I tested as well - I normally have Auto Import Off, so I turned it on and within 1 Minute got a "MC has Stopped Working" error in Win7-64 Bit Ultimate on an i7 Box (see attached log).  I turned on and off the Auto Import, added and removed items in a test folder and saw big halts in MC with Task Mgr saying "Not Responding" for up to 10-sec at a time but the more tested the less frequent these periods became.  It seems to me to be more related to the JRAnalyser than JRWorker (if they are different that is!) and I especially notice this when going into "Drives and Devices" - something is being loaded / checked that halts all other things.  In my final test of watching a DVB-T CH, Auto Importing a bunch of MPG files, navigating around MC, watching Thumbs build in the Recently Imported list...it all worked perfectly.

[JimH]

Don't you both live in Australia?  And raym?

[rpalmer68]

Don't you both live in Australia?  And raym?

Correct.

[rpalmer68]

If you're willing let's try this:
- get the MPC-HC standalone filters from here (MPC-Standalone Filters.1.3.1249.0.(x86).zip) - keeping it simple, 32bit versions
- open the zip somewhere and register (only): mpadecfilter.ax, mpcvideodec.ax, mpeg2decfilter.ax, mpegsplitter.ax (registering is done with regsvr32 x:\[path to filter]\[filter file] from Run..., from a commandline window, etc)
- set up MC to use only  them since you already have other filters. That would be the MS source filter (sorry can't recall with what name exactly is coming up, it's the quartz.dll file), OpenSource MPEG splitter as the splitter filter, Gabest Audio decoder as the audio decoder, OpenSource MPEG2Dec Filter for playing MPEG, MPEG-2 and whatever else MC lists in that category. No Reclock, nothing else. JRiver bitrate monitor can stay, that's fine.
- Make sure the files play and there are no x filters to do the same job, daisy chained (i.e. if you see Gabest Audio decoder AND Ac3Filter showing up together it's not good, go in Ac3Filter and disable its use for everything from its own control panel, System tab). We wanna make sure the playback it's working with minimum filters. Will check for subtleties later.
- Index some more stuff with make thumbnails on. See if there is any difference.

If there is a difference than the decoding chain is the problem (or possible something else we haven't accounted for). If there is no difference I guess we can concentrate our attention to parallelism, although personally I don't see anything wrong with it (but my indexing and thumb-nailing technique might differ significantly from other users).

Have tried to follow your directions, registered the filters OK but am not sure if I have the correct ones selected for mpg playback in MC as the names are a little confusing.

When I try to playback a recorded mpeg file MC crashes with an application error, in module quartz.dll, so something isn't right!

When you get a change can you tell me the correct names to have ticked/selected please?
What should I have as the "Source Filter" and what should be ticked under Other Filters.  Also which renderer should I use on XP?

Cheers
Richard

[Daydream]

When you get a change can you tell me the correct names to have ticked/selected please?

Here you go:



Made a change in the suggestions, use the source filter from MPC also (no MS-stuff quartz.dll; mpegsplitter.ax does both functions, source and splitter). For the renderer EVR if you have .Net Framework 3.0 installed or VMR9 if you don't. See in the second pic how the filter list should look when you play an MPG file.

[rpalmer68]

Here you go:


Made a change in the suggestions, use the source filter from MPC also (no MS-stuff quartz.dll; mpegsplitter.ax does both functions, source and splitter). For the renderer EVR if you have .Net Framework 3.0 installed or VMR9 if you don't. See in the second pic how the filter list should look when you play an MPG file.

Thanks!

Have setup mpg playback exactly the same, except EVR gave me a black screen with audio, VMR7 the same and then crashed, VMR9 seems to play back OK.  Strange as I do have .NEt 3.0 and 3.5 installed, anyway the test is fine as long as one renderer works at this stage.

So I have played back some files OK so have then proceeded to do a test.

I closed MC and opened it again, this will cause all my mpg files to be impoirted again by auto-import.

Navigating in Theater view is still VERY sluggish while the import is happening, with 4 jworker.exex processes running and CPU between 20 and 75%.
What is very interesting is that once I manage to navigate to an mpg file and play it, CPU drops back to 8% and the jworker.exe processes vanish.
As soon as I stop playback cpu goes back up and JWorker.exes come back and the PC gets sluggish again.

This doesn't happen with my original filters (even without reclock), the jworker.exe processes keep running during playback..... it's like everything stops for playback with the MPC filters...

Anyway, not sure what this tells us, and I'll have to do some recordings while watching somethig to see if I still get stuttering during playback  but it's interesting....


[EDIT] As an experiment I tried to play back an avi file (currently using ffdshow filters) while the import was running (with MPC filters still enabled).  Video playback was all stuttery and unwatchable, CPU stayed high and JWorker.exe processes were still running.

Will report back when I test some more...

Cheers
Richard

[rpalmer68]

I just had two big stutters while watching an .mpg recorded file and two recordings that recently finished were imported, so we still don't have a solution....


Oh dear, I've just noticed that the source filter (MPC_Mpeg Source) isn't loading and the graph is still using "File Source (Async)" and the Mpeg_2 Demultiplexer.  Looking in the logs the MPC one isnt even being tried, quartz.dll is loading first....  Hmm.  The filter is registered (just did it again to be safe) and it is selected in MC... any ideas?

The other MPC filters are loading ok.

log file attached.

Richard.

[glynor]

Hmmm.... I'm definitely not seeing problems that severe.  While I see issues, it is generally to a far smaller degree (and, like I said, has been dramatically better since I went with CoreAVC).  Generally my issues are isolated to high def videos with x264 encoding and high-ish bitrates.

I suspect that Jim might be right.  You sound like you have some filter issues.  Have you worked through these tips?

http://www.cccp-project.net/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Guide

Before going in and playing with a bunch of individually applied and installed filters, I'd get the system in a "known good" configuration, to eliminate other problems as a possibility.  If you get your filters all set up through CCCP, with no "tweaks" or "individually installed" filters, then you'll have a good starting point.  Rip the "guts" of your DirectShow playback filters out, and start over fresh (including removing anything like Nero filters, PowerDVD filters, and all the rest).  If that solves things then you know it was something you did manually or some software you added.

If not, then we need to look elsewhere...

I'd also be interested to see a graph of your results in HD Tach for both your system drive and your media drive, assuming they're not the same drive.  I'm wondering if you aren't having some sort of Hard Drive throughput issue.  Try grabbing HD Tach and run the Long Test on your drives: http://www.simplisoftware.com/Public/index.php?request=HdTach

This is an Intel Q6600 (or something like that) machine, right?  On a P45 chipset, if I'm not mistaken.  Perhaps a un/re-install of your Chipset Drivers and Intel Storage drivers might make a difference.

[Daydream]

Richard, it looks like there is problem with the merit of certain filters on your system. For whatever reason some (unwanted) filters are kicking in even if you chose otherwise. There are filter managers that can change the merits but that's a rather annoying/advanced way of dealing with the problems.

If you install CCCP (like Glynor suggests, and most of the people over here swear by that package) that may set the merits right. One note though: if you just click away thought the installing steps of CCCP package and don't change anything you might end up with to much stuff (including audio decoding) assigned to ffdshow which is something I wouldn't chose.

[glynor]

If you install CCCP (like Glynor suggests, and most of the people over here swear by that package) that may set the merits right. One note though: if you just click away thought the installing steps of CCCP package and don't change anything you might end up with to much stuff (including audio decoding) assigned to ffdshow which is something I wouldn't chose.

I'm not saying keep it like that forever.  I'm just saying get there to eliminate other things as potential issues.  Then step through new installs and tweaks (for quality) ONE AT A TIME, testing all the way.

Systematic, my friend.  Systematic.

[rpalmer68]

Thanks gents, I do have CCCP installed and have re-installed it only a couple of days ago.

What software should I use to try to change the merit of things to force the MCP source filter to be used?

Seems strange, I would have thought that if I specify it in the MC settings, MC would at leat try to use it, or am I missreading the log files?

R

[jmone]

Richard, what prog are you using to record with and is it on the same PC and the one you are using for playback?

[jmone]

Thanks gents, I do have CCCP installed and have re-installed it only a couple of days ago.

What software should I use to try to change the merit of things to force the MCP source filter to be used?

Seems strange, I would have thought that if I specify it in the MC settings, MC would at leat try to use it, or am I missreading the log files?

R

I used to use http://www.videohelp.com/tools/RadLight_Filter_Manager to muck around with changing merits in XP but MC should do it for you.  I hate to say it but I've really had a Much Better time with DirectShow when I moved to Vista (and now to Win7).....do you have the ability to try a Win7 (I think you can still get a "free" Win7-RC key from MS...)

[rpalmer68]

Richard, what prog are you using to record with and is it on the same PC and the one you are using for playback?

I'm using Webscheduler and yes it is on the same PC, although it hasn't been a problem until recently, and running auto-import without webscheduler recording still slows the PC right down.

[jmone]

Richard - I've have a look at some of your logs and just another idea (if you have not already tested) is to take the Network out of the equation - have you tested to see if you get the stutter when playback / thumnailing / library etc is all off the local C: Drive isntead of over the network (I had stutter issues that I thought was bandwidth related but it was caused by a cheap switch I'd recently added (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=53728.0 )).

Thanks
Nathan

[JimH]

A disk in PIO mode could also cause problems. 

Here's what Microsoft says:

For repeated DMA errors. Windows XP will turn off DMA mode for a device after encountering certain errors during data transfer operations. If more that six DMA transfer timeouts occur, Windows will turn off DMA and use only PIO mode on that device.

http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/storage/IDE-DMA.mspx

This was one of the worst ideas ever devised by Microsoft.  It caused me a lot of trouble a few years ago.

[rpalmer68]

Richard - I've have a look at some of your logs and just another idea (if you have not already tested) is to take the Network out of the equation - have you tested to see if you get the stutter when playback / thumnailing / library etc is all off the local C: Drive isntead of over the network (I had stutter issues that I thought was bandwidth related but it was caused by a cheap switch I'd recently added (http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=53728.0 )).

Thanks
Nathan

My T: drive is in fact my local D: drive just mapped to T: so all machines use the same drive letter stored in the library.

[rpalmer68]

I have changed the merit of the Filesource (async) filter to Do NOT USE, and increased the MPC filter to a higher merit yet the filesource filter is still being loaded in MC instead of the one specified in the MC settings.


R

[jmone]

*sigh* why can't things just work as they should!

It's the "fun" of HTPC (makes you want to just buy a HW player some times.....)

I just run another test of AutoImporting a bunch of MPG files with Resource Monitor going (see below) and.... it played nice again.  I normally get 3 or 4 JRWorker threads going on my i7 Win7-64 PC and while they seem to take a long time (eg up to 10sec for some files ...which is probably also filter related to build a thumb) none of these threads ever exceed around 5% of CPU each.  My Disc IO / Memory etc was also fine.  If there is anything else you want me to check....

[Alex B]

My T: drive is in fact my local D: drive just mapped to T: so all machines use the same drive letter stored in the library.

As a test, you could disconnect the mapped T: drive and use the SUBST command instead.

For instance, if the shared folder that you have mapped is D:\Media run a command prompt and write

SUBST T: D:\Media

If that helps anything you can create a .bat file that contains the same command line and put it in the startup folder.

I have run some tests and found that a locally mapped "network" drive connection is slower than SUBST (which does not differ from standard disk access), though the difference is quite small.

[jmone]

Richard - do you get the problems if you uncheck Tools --> Options --> Tree & View --> Thumbnails --> Create thumbnails for videos ?

This should stop thumbs from being built during Auto Import (but you would then have to Build missing thumbnails manually at some other time).

[jmone]

As a test, you could disconnect the mapped T: drive and use the SUBST command instead.

For instance, if the shared folder that you have mapped is D:\Media run a command prompt and write

SUBST T: D:\Media

If that helps anything you can create a .bat file that contains the same command line and put it in the startup folder.

I have run some tests and found that a locally mapped "network" drive connection is slower than SUBST (which does not differ from standard disk access), though the difference is quite small.

Or...just change the Drive Letter (in Disk Manger) to be T:

[glynor]

Or...just change the Drive Letter (in Disk Manger) to be T:

That's the real answer, unless you need it to be both T and D for some wacky reason.

Do the disk throughput test.  This all seems like a filter problem, but it could be a disk throughput issue too.  Running HD Tach will only take a few minutes, and it will answer the question.

And, I didn't mean just install CCCP.  I meant work through the CCCP troubleshooter to ensure that you have ONLY CCCP on there, and then systematically add anything additional that you need.  The troubleshooter has a bunch of important steps and the Insurgent app will help you identify issues and conflicting filters.

I have changed the merit of the Filesource (async) filter to Do NOT USE, and increased the MPC filter to a higher merit yet the filesource filter is still being loaded in MC instead of the one specified in the MC settings.

Even if you set it to DO NOT USE, it will still fail back to it if the render graph fails at the higher Merit scores.  Whatever you are choosing as your default is NOT WORKING.  It quite likely is NOT that the render graph is "defaulting" to the Filesource filter.

Test the render graph manually using G-Spot or GraphEdit.

[Yaobing]

Sorry I have not said anything during last few days.  I now have to do some catching up reading these posts.

Regarding audio filters during thumbnailing, we build the graph initially letting DirectShow render all streams, including audio, then we remove the audio branch.  Therefore audio filters should not be a problem, at least not during actually process of grabbing an image.  But if an audio filter gives us trouble even during the process of building the DirectShow graph, we have to re-consider how we do it.

Matt has made some changes which will appear in a future build.  I hope they will alleviate the problem:

8. Changed: Adding files to the library will run one-at-a-time during a background import, and only two-at-a-time during a manual import.
9. Optimized: Auto-import builds thumbnails two-at-a-time when run manually.
10. Changed: Auto-import will no longer respond to external file system changes while playing in Display View, but instead wait to reconcile changes until exiting Display View.

[JimH]

8. Changed: Adding files to the library will run one-at-a-time during a background import, and only two-at-a-time during a manual import.
9. Optimized: Auto-import builds thumbnails two-at-a-time when run manually.
10. Changed: Auto-import will no longer respond to external file system changes while playing in Display View, but instead wait to reconcile changes until exiting Display View.

For the sake of clarity, I think these may help or even eliminate the symptoms, but I also believe there is an underlying problem with the hardware/software combination rpalmer is using.

It would be nice to get to the bottom of the problem.

[rpalmer68]

For the sake of clarity, I think these may help or even eliminate the symptoms, but I also believe there is an underlying problem with the hardware/software combination rpalmer is using.

It would be nice to get to the bottom of the problem.

Thanks Yaobing, Matt and Jim

I'll await these changes and report back on how things improve...

In the meantime I'll try to debug my filters, as yes I agree Jim I'd like to get to the bottom of it too

Cheers
Richard

[JimH]

Thanks Yaobing, Matt and Jim

I'll await these changes and report back on how things improve...

In the meantime I'll try to debug my filters, as yes I agree Jim I'd like to get to the bottom of it too

Please don't forget the drive possibilties above.  PIO mode could explain everything.  Maybe you know that and have elimitated it as a possible cause.  glynor's drive test would probably catch that and other problems.

[rpalmer68]

Please don't forget the drive possibilties above.  PIO mode could explain everything.  Maybe you know that and have elimitated it as a possible cause.  glynor's drive test would probably catch that and other problems.

The drive is an SATA drive not an IDE but yes I will run the HD test to check.

Cheers

[JimH]

I believe SATA drives can also have the PIO problem.  It's Windows deciding to whack the drive for being bad.

[rpalmer68]

I believe SATA drives can also have the PIO problem.  It's Windows deciding to whack the drive for being bad.

Here's the results from the HD Tach.

Will take a lot longer to troubleshoot the filters as I have the in-laws here this week... so better not spend the whole week under the bonnet so to speak

Richard

[Alex B]

Or...just change the Drive Letter (in Disk Manger) to be T:

That's the real answer, unless you need it to be both T and D for some wacky reason.

The SUBST command is fine to use. I have never had problems with it.

A virtual drive letter makes possible to access a shared folder from any PC on the LAN through the same path.

When a folder path is SUBSTituted locally on the PC that holds the media files file access doesn't happen through the network subsystem and is as fast as standard disk access.

On client PCs the same shared folder can be mapped with the same letter so that a copy of the same main library can be used. In addition, the new feature that makes possible to play library server files directly if they are found from the file path can be used.

I have normally three SUBST commands in a .bat file that I have in the startup folder, for instance:

SUBST X: D:\music
SUBST Y: E:\video_images
SUBST Z: F:\new_stuff

My main library has been imported from the virtual X:, Y: and Z: drives for years even though the physical location has varied a lot.

I also have similar base folders and a subset of the media files on an external 1 TB USB drive. When I use it outside home with a laptop I can create the same drive letters easily with SUBST and once again use the same library (naturally the files that are not included are then offline, but otherwise the library works without any tweaking).