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Author Topic: Media categories and organisation  (Read 9956 times)

darichman

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Media categories and organisation
« on: August 04, 2009, 11:07:09 am »

Please excuse me for what will probably be a fairly broad discourse about organisation in MC... I think there have been some really great developments in the program in MC14, and like many users here I want to see the program continue to grow, and reach as wide a user base as possible. I also think the software could benefit from a bit of time spent towards keeping things tighter from an organisational standpoint...

Some general notes on organisation
MC outperforms many data/asset management systems when it comes to organisation. This stems in a very big way from 1) the user's unlimited ability to create custom fields and 2) the ability to create views which make use of these fields in a variety of ways.

This flexibility is perhaps one of MC's greatest and most rewarding strengths - but requires substantial investment of time and effort to master. Visitors are often impressed with MC when I show it off, so much so that I have managed to persuade at least a dozen over the years to purchase the software. I've noticed a pattern emerging, however - they almost invariably ask me why 'their' media center looks nothing like mine, and many lose interest when I begin talking about setting up views and fields and ultimately go back to using windows media player. Or iTunes. The initial interest isn't sustained when users discover that effort is required to reach a point where you have useful and functional views. A reasonable conclusion to draw from this is that development should aim to minimise this effort.

I can definitely appreciate that many users, probably most who frequent this board in fact, will tinker away with MC until they get their views just right. The silent many who never visit online forums will still be using the schemes and default fields from their vanilla install several months ago... I think we need to do some more work on improving the default organisational framework of the program. I'm sure all of us here, particularly on the beta board, have invested considerable time and thought into how we organise things, and could come up with something really great as a starting point. The aim is to develop a system or standard of organisation without undermining a user's ability to customise to their individual needs. Any talk of standards is inherently contentious, but maybe we can work towards a starting point from which users can build as their collection and knowledge of the program grow.

Now's where you're probably thinking "We asked users to propose fields and view schemes towards the end of MC 13's development cycle!" I remember back then having nothing really useful to contribute, and did think that a bit odd at the the time. But my library is customised beyond recognition from the default setup. I almost have more custom fields than default fields, use view schemes based entirely on these fields and have restructured my tree to the extent I don't even touch the default audio, image and video views anymore.

Personally, I think we have outgrown the current implementation for [Media Type] and [Media Sub Type] as primary discriminators for organisation. I may be presumptive in using 'we' here, so please jump in with thoughts and opinions on this. The media collection of the average computer user is growing in size and diversity. Not only are we collecting more and more content, but the range of content is expanding as well. I think we need something to really tie like media types together a bit more definitively. As I see it, this involves two parts:

1. Defining appropriate media categories
2. Making use of these media categories in a useful and consistent way throughout the program

Nether of these should ever restrict the user (just as adding default views never stopped us from creating our own) but I think a little bit of consistency might help us find more direction when it comes to setting up views for individual media types.

Defining appropriate media categories
[Media Type] is a necessary and useful way to tell the difference between different types of media on a audio/video/image basis. I do think it is overemphasised as far as functionally separating media within the library is concerned, however. I think this role is better suited to a field which more accurately describes the type of media we're dealing with. "Video" or "Image" covers such a broad range of media types it's not funny, so a view scheme which makes sense for one type of "Video" might not be appropriate for another type of "Video"

I think [Media Sub Type] needs should be the focus. It needs a bit of work, however...
1. A more extensive list of standard/built-in values
2. Users should be able to add subtypes if they wish
3. The field should be used more actively throughout the program to create differential views relevant to individual media subtypes - a default view for series if [Media Sub Type]=Series etc

These are the current 'allowed' values for [Media Subtype]
  Audiobook
  Home Video
  Karaoke
  Movie
  Music Video
  Podcast
  Radio
  Remix
  Single
  TV Show

Does this seem like a bit of a random list to anyone else? It's certainly not all-inclusive... how do I tag a music track from an album? Theatre? Documents? Comedy/live performances? There's not even a mention of any categories for images. And, perhaps most importantly, it's not editable. This discourages using MC for media types which don't fit nicely into these assorted labels and almost mandates a custom field to achieve the purpose... and this is where it makes it difficult for users to share views - we all have different fields by which we separate/categorise our media. Suffice to say, I don't use [Media Sub Type]. It might be useful, however, if some users who do make use of it describe their experiences?

Would anyone be interested in coming up with some useful categories that cover all the major media types people might deal with? I'll begin with a derivative of the system I use and maybe others can comment or suggest their own? Naturally everyone has different tastes, opinions and media collections, so this is by no means definitive... it might even be too detailed, but maybe by discussion we can reach a good balance?

(Headings are root entries in the tree, bulleted items are entries in a custom [Type] field)

Music
  • Studio Album
  • Posthumous Album
  • Single
  • Compilation
  • EP
  • LP
  • Concert/Live Recording
  • Unreleased/Miscellaneous
  • Music Video
  • Classical Album
  • Soundtrack
Moving Pictures
  • Film
  • Television
  • Theatre
  • Documentary
  • Anime
  • Sport
  • Game Media
  • Stand-Up/Live Performance
Art/Images
  • Classic Art
  • Digital Art
  • Photography/Stock Images
  • Clip Art
  • Coverart
Print
  • Novels
  • Short Stories
  • Non-Fiction
  • Articles
  • Poetry
  • Comics/Graphic Novels
  • Manga
  • Art Books
  • Maps
  • Calendars
  • Recipes
Personal
  • Photos
  • Home Videos
  • Letters
  • Certificates
  • Postcards
  • Memorabilia

Encouraging and making use of media categories throughout the program
As far as default views go, I don't think there's any view for simply showing a user 'just my TV shows" or "just my home videos", whether you have [Media Sub Type] filled out or not. All of the video groups will bring up a jumbled mess of every video in the library - movies, TV shows, home videos, music videos - with no real rhyme or reason to order. If I expand my 'Video' tree entry right now and click on any of the views in there, I see "Torchwood" right along with "the home videos of my cousin's baby daughter".

This is hugely disorientating and comes across as quite messy at first... the default theatre view video views are also a jumbled mess if you have a wide variety of video types. Of course we can fix these views up by adding filters and filling in the correct tags, but this sort of thing isn't immediately apparent to the new user, and that's at the root of the issue I think...

Perhaps some encouragement to make use of such a [Media Sub Type] field might be a good idea. If all media were tagged with [Media Sub Type] at a minimum, at least it would appear in the correct view to begin with (and we'd avoid the jumbled mess scenario mentioned above). A brief import wizard might even be the go - "What type of media is this?" ... user selects "TV show". This could be our first discriminating point as to how the program deals with the media. A default smartlist could show all the files which don't have [Media Sub Type] filled out, further encouraging the user to maintain good organisation.

So once we have some built-in media type fields, and once the user is encouraged to fill them in, it's an easy thing indeed to create some default views for use throughout the program. Standard view could be populated with more useful categories like "Home Videos" and "TV Shows" and "Movies" rather than the generic 'Video'. Theater view could have built in views for watching TV series or playing classical music. There's just more... order to it all.

It is very possible I'm alone in my feelings about all this - I do tend to go on sometimes - but I thought I'd share them in case others feel the same way.
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rjm

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2009, 03:28:52 pm »

This is a worthwhile topic to discuss.

I started a similar thread in 2007 http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=43731.0 but it failed to gain any traction.

I subsequently spent a lot of time designing a custom system that works very well for me. My key requirements were:
- simple (minimize number of custom fields and tagging effort)
- comprehensive (able to handle all media types)
- scalable (heavy use of hierarchical nested fields to make very large libraries manageable)
- uniform (one view able to navigate everything in consistent manner)

After much experimentation I concluded that the minimum number of custom tags to achieve the above was 2: Type and Topic

Type
   Book+
      Audiobook
      Blog
      Book
      Documentary
      Lecture
      Magazine
      Podcast
      SheetMusic
      Speech
      TrainingVideo
   Comedy
      Audio
      Comic
      Video
   Family
      Photo
      Video
   Magic
      Book
      Video
   Map
   Movie+
      Movie
      TV
   Music
      Single Artist
      Various Artitsts
   RadioPlay
   Stock+
      StockAudio
      StockImage
      StockVideo


Here is the first level of hierarchy for Topic. It's a lot of effort for me to type all the details but will consider doing so if requested.

Topic
   Category
   Family
   Genre
   Location
   Subject
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leezer3

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2009, 04:02:58 pm »

The biggest issue is that everyone has different ideas about what's important to them. For that matter, I have various separate sets of subgenres (Basically your subtype) depending on whether I'm dealing with Music, Audiobooks, Film, TV or Anime and several other subgenre sets for more personal media.
As an example, Mecha is a pretty major theme in anime, but isn't found to any major extent outside this type of stuff. Admittedly, I could simply lump my whole set into a single Subgenre field, but I find a distinct set for each media type is much more easy to manage.

A default selection would be good for the inexperienced user, but anyone with excessively sized libraries (I'm talking 20,000 plus files basically), or power users are simply going to find something like this limiting, especially if something of this nature is implemented in a hardcoded format :)

-Leezer-
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MrC

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2009, 05:38:13 pm »

It is probably safe to say that almost every hierarchical organization like this breaks down under its own scrutiny.  This is because "things" have properties, and not strict parent-child relationships.  In your own example, can one not have at once Art that is both Classic and Stock?

A more flexible system requires the ability to add properties to a thing, and then allows grouping/sorting on those things.  Then, defaults can be set, and users can customize to taste.

But you started down a path which I hoped you would flush out more... the ability to more easily create views.  One example, for improvement.  Would it not be nice to be able to more directly manipulate any view, by say, dragging fields into various areas (eg. pane categories), move the panes around to the top/bottom/left, move a field to a Group By box (ex. Excel's pivot charts, or Outlook's Group By), etc. all showing live data results on the fly instead of having to go in and out of the options dialog?  Wouldn't it be great if View As pictorially showed what the view would look like?

There are so many possibilities...
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MusicHawk

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2009, 08:26:13 pm »

I've also tossed this topic out there a few times, but perhaps it is of interest only to a few people in the forum. Maybe the "normal" users are not here, or not participating in discussions, yet maybe they represent the masses that might buy MC.

There are ways MC could be a tad friendlier by matching up with what consumers already know. For categorization, just look at a music store (physical or online), a book store, etc. They mostly all use the same categories, familiar to most consumers. If MC had the same categories, normal users would understand what they mean, and the rest of us could continue to use our custom taxonomies.

Another debatable aspect is the "media center" UI because it's mostly an audio UI. This is understandable given the products evolution, and OK for my needs. But what would a newbie make of it? I put all our photos in MC and my family is baffled. They find it easier to use Vista's Windows Explorer (ugh), which also struggles to present different types of files. I wonder if MC be accepted as a "media center" when most of the UI elements are clearly for a "music jukebox"?

Separating files into trees/views based on media type is not enough. Except for music, many menu options, right-clicks, controls, etc, are either meaningless or confusing when used for video and especially for images. Even the default views and playlists are inappropriate or just plain odd for non-music/audio. MC takes a stab at being helpful, with certain fields invoked for certain media types (Artist and Tempo for music, Caption and Location for images, etc). This is undoubtedly difficult to implement, so I appreciate that it happens. But is it enough?

For discussion: How common is the need to mix media types in one application? Other than working with cover art, is there really a common need to dive into a mix of audio, images and video?  (See ** below for more on cover art.)

If "all media soup" is not the norm for most users, a possible solution would be for MC to have different UI components (menu items, buttons, views...) for each of the three major media types -- audio (aka music, talk, sound), images (aka still pictures), video (aka moving pictures). MC could have a simple startup menu where the user chooses the media type to work with. Or MC could install three icons that start the program with a flag indicating which mode/UI to use. Starting MC for a particular media type would load the default library associated with it. In effect, the user could treat MC as three different apps.

Back to the categorization/taxonomy discussion, I can post my list, but I'm taking a different approach. I use a separate library for each major media: Audio/Music, Images, Video. That's the first cut, and implicit in the file types, so no need to further identify files this way. This further illustrates the UI challenge. My Images-only library still has buttons and views for Audio and Video.

Within each media-specific library, I try to use standard fields (Name, Title, etc) when possible. For instance I use Genre because it's a standard field, but it's only slightly helpful, because lots of music is cross-genre or multi-genre, and even images and video can fit multiple genres, as another poster mentioned.

I also have custom fields appropriate to a library's media type, for data values that I need to separately sort by, control at the column level, and/or show in a Track Info display. This especially is important in music management/playback (I used to program radio stations so some of my needs arise from how they organize music, such as chart position, mono/stereo, etc). I need multi-value fields for some things, so add those alongside MC's single-value standard fields. For instance, I use an Artists field in addition to the standard Artist field, and a Composers field ("s" on the end of my custom fields means multi-value).

Therefore, my main MC power tool, important beyond almost everything else, is the multi-value Keywords field. Because ultimately I want to select files for views and smartlists, I list the key things I need to identify as values in the Keywords field. Then I can select/filter via expressions. It's not classic database design but it works very well.

(** Cover art contributes to the confusion because these images are not treated as such in the library. I've seen users click on the top Images link and wonder, reasonably, where are all the images they added to tracks. Cover art mysteriously is shown when viewing albums and tracks but otherwise is invisible to those not able or willing to dig into the plumbing. It is difficult to explain that there are images and there are Images, since even the tag/field that identifies a track's cover art is named "Image File". Of course, cover art that is stored as files (rather than embedded) can be loaded into an Images library, handy to see what's there but also risky, since an image's name or location could be changed, breaking the connection from the associated audio/video file. While the audio/video file knows what cover art image it uses, the image file doesn't know to which audio/video file it belongs -- possibly many).

MC is really an amazing tool for those who dive in enough to understand and use the power. But that might be a deep dive. So I hope this and similar discussions are at least a little bit helpful to MC's architects.

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Managing my media with JRiver since Media Jukebox 8 (maybe earlier), currently use Media Center for Audio/Music and Photos/Videos.
My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.

MrHaugen

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2009, 04:00:01 am »

I've almost read everything, and my eyes hurt  :o

I do agree with most of this. Something should be done to set a standard of Categories/tags for most normal use scenarios. And if it's not enough for the users, let them add and customize it. Media Type and Media Subtype would be the most obvious things to work on I guess. Media Subtype today is worthless, and requires people to add custom fields.

I do not however like the idea of mixing music, video and images under different categories (I can't even imagine having music videos under music :)). That's for advanced uses. It's at least not something that is normal behavior in any media center app that I have seen. I believe that's where the customization comes in.
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fitbrit

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2009, 12:40:59 pm »

I've been using MC for about 20 months now. I've suggested features which have been incorporated, I'm on the Beta team, but only now am I beginning to use View Schemes and *shudder* starting to customise them. Up until now I was making use of smartlists, but as my media collection has grown the number of smartlists has too.

Most people above have been saying, "Let's have this or that standard, but let users have freedom to change things." Well, we have that freedom now, but the problem is that executing that freedom could be easier to get into, with better documentation, wizards etc. The first post had it spot on when it was mentioned that it takes effort to customise. I agree we should minimise how much effort that is, but in my experience that is achieved by making things easier to get started.
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rick.ca

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2009, 02:23:18 pm »

I agree that customization can be difficult and requires effort. There are limits to what can be done to make is easier (i.e., there is some inherent "difficulty"—usually having to do with the necessity to make choices), but it's possible to remove things that get in the way. The Media Subtype field is a good illustration of the issue. The way it is now seems to be based on the idea choices and flexibility make things more complicated, so being fixed and not configurable will make things easier. If the program were properly documented, I could read about why this is the way it is and then make a rational choice as to what to do. That would probably be to ignore it and create my own custom equivalent(s). But as it is, it just raises a bunch of annoying questions: Is there a reason why I can't add my own subtype? Is some critical program function dependant on these being fixed? If I ignore this and create my own custom field, will I lose some functionality or create some unforeseen problem? Just having these questions is a serious impediment to configuring the program to it's best use. I'm still not sure, but from my experience and what others are saying here, it would seem the restrictions put on the Media Subtype field are unnecessary and counterproductive.
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fitbrit

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2009, 02:37:02 pm »

Rick.ca, I definitely agree with you on the media subtype thing. Right now, wayyyy too much of my video media is classified as TV show, simply because it's not a movie nor a music video. I'd like to have flexibility here so that I can have an IMAX film subtype etc.
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rick.ca

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2009, 03:46:34 pm »

I'd like to have flexibility here so that I can have an IMAX film subtype etc.

Just to make another point... what subtypes there should be is wayyyy too personal for there to be any suggestion any particular one "belongs" in my configuration. For example, it doesn't matter how logical it is for "IMAX" to be included in some "standard" subtype scheme. If my collection only includes a few of them and/or I don't care about that attribute, it clearly does not belong in my scheme. And this is not a matter of inconsequential preference. If I plan to include "IMAX," then I have to find a way to ensure all IMAX files are categorized this way. If I don't, then it's existence invites error (e.g., I classify a video as IMAX because that's what it is, but I forget other IMAX videos are not so classified).

I appreciate others sharing their classification schemes—it helps me design my own. I question, however, the usefulness of attempting to include these in a default configuration. Perhaps the best default is one which is clearly just an illustration of how things might be organized. Maybe it can be something that satisfies a user who doesn't really care. Otherwise, it should serve as an invitation to modify the configuration as required. A new user's experience should be along the lines of, "That's nice. Now I'll just delete those unneeded subtypes and add this one, and it will be perfect. It's also wonderful knowing I can change this at any time without breaking anything."

The same idea applies to the default fields provided. For example, considerable effort went into adding a set of standard video fields. This might be small convenience to some, but at the cost of creating the impression this was necessary to accommodate video media. This makes it even less apparent we can add whatever custom fields are necessary, and these function exactly the same way as standard fields (i.e., AFAIK, this was not done to accommodate any internal functions of the program). In my situation, I quickly found this was a significant inconvenience. More than half the fields provided were not of the type I required for the video information I needed to import. And, of course, I'm unable to change the type or delete these fields. I have to create custom fields with different names, and then take care to use those and not the useless standard ones.
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MusicHawk

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2009, 05:09:28 pm »

Based on the assumption that MC out-of-the-box should have some default tag pick lists, views, etc -- so newbies can "just do it" -- I noted that there are fairly standard categories used by those who sell music, and those who sell video, especially the major players. My assumption was that most people can understand these categories/terms so instead of being confused/overwhelmed, they'd feel comfortable if MC used them too.

I'm still think it's a good suggestion, but not as good as yesterday. I was just noodling around Discogs.com, which aspires to be a user-built discography of all music. I found a ton of music that is bizarrely, totally miscategorized. For instance, in the 50s-60s Ray Conniff was the ultimate producer of easy listening albums; yet Discogs labels his music "jazz". If he played jazz the Boston Symphony plays hip-hop.

In Discogs.com my favorite album by The Ramsey Lewis Trio, recorded about a year before he "went pop" with "The In Crowd", is "Bach To The Blues". Ramsey Lewis provides very nice blues/jazz piano take-offs on a variety of classical melodies (by Bach and others). Discogs.com labels it "Hard Bop", an established jazz term that in no-way applies to this album or a single song on it. (Alas, this album has never been released on CD, nor for download, so I treasure my vinyl copy and rip of it.)

OK, so some bad user data... but it suggests that the meaning of "standard" category/genre terms aren't grasped by one and all. Unfortunately.

But on the bright side, Discogs.com is good for a few laughs.
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My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.

rick.ca

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2009, 06:02:59 pm »

Quote
Based on the assumption that MC out-of-the-box should have some default tag pick lists, views, etc

I think that's a good idea too, but it needs to be presented as a suggestion, not an unchangeable standard. If it's prepared with care, even something not everyone would agree on can very useful for most users. For example, a simplified scheme for music genres and styles could be based on categories popular existing schemes (e.g., Discogs, AllMusic, music sellers) mainly agree on. Categories and subcategories should be specific enough there is little doubt what belongs in them, and there should always be a place to put items that don't otherwise fit. Most users can then embrace that scheme, knowing they can split or combine categories to suit their needs.

So, yes, you still have the problem of bad data from Discogs, but MC is flexible enough you can change "Hard Bop" to "Other", or your own custom "Blues/jazz-classical-melody-piano-take-off." ;)
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MrC

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2009, 06:16:23 pm »

[ slightly offtopic, but fun nonetheless ]

All this speaking of AllMusic reminds me of the fun times my wife and I have had, with me trying to describe to her the seemingly endless sub-genres/styles of music, reading through the often detailed descriptions, and then sampling the representative tracks.  She's convinced there's no difference between any of them - there is either HER music, or everything else!

But there's nothing like some good, ol' easy listen "Illbient", classic "Third Wave Ska Revival", obvious "Emo", or a home-town favorite "Vallenato".

Come'on J River - lets get those genres populated! :-)
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JimH

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2009, 06:18:12 pm »

OK, we'll switch media sub-type in the next build to:

  His
  Hers

It would definitely work here.  It's a nice, clean approach.  Thanks for the suggestion.
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rick.ca

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2009, 08:11:42 pm »

Brilliant, Jim. But what guy in his right mind would be foolish enough to try to decide which media is "his" and which is "hers." There is a much more complicated, and therefore safer way to do this sort of thing. Consider what I've done with my movies: I added a search list category called "Audience." The first item is "Men" which includes rules to like genre is any [genres that generally only men appreciate] and genre is not any [genres that generally men can't stand]. Another pair of rules for "tones." The result is a very good "testosterone movie" filter. Reversing all the "is any" and "is not any" yields another list item I call "Sissies." Do the same thing for "Chick Flicks" (never mind what I call the opposite of that).

I did this as a lark, but it's scary how "right" the results seem. And if a girl friend doesn't like a "chick flick," I can credibly blame the program and give her your email address. ;D
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MrC

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2009, 08:32:33 pm »

But what guy in his right mind would be foolish enough to try to decide which media is "his" and which is "hers."

<snip>

...And if a girl friend doesn't like ..."
The guy who has drifted from "girl friend" to "wife" long ago yielded control to the one who must be obeyed. :-)

Quote from: rick.ca
Do the same thing for "Chick Flicks" (never mind what I call the opposite of that).
Chick-en Flicks?

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darichman

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2009, 11:47:32 pm »

Thanks for the discussion guys - it is great to hear about how others set things up and I often pick up things I hadn't even considered. For instance, the thought had never crossed my mind to nest category entries like rjm. I do wonder though, do you have any issues using them in expressions and filters?

This was all never meant to be about forcing a standard down people's throats - just to make the starting point more... useful. And also to better illustrate example views on first install and facilitate view sharing (at the moment this is made very difficult by the fact that we're all using different custom fields). Rick made a very good point about much of this not being clear from the get-go. If I don't use the default fields, are there areas of the program which require these to work properly? I do think we need some more built-in values, and some more default views (both standard and theatre) which make use of these values, but without limiting the user to a preset list. I definitely wouldn't want it 'hardcoded', for sure.

I can probably agree about not mixing media types (audio, video, images) too much... and you're right in that most other programs use this division too. In my library things are organised more from a 'media concept' point of view (where any media related to a movie, for example, is grouped based on that relationship) but I didn't want to emphasise that here, as I understand that this concept is a bit novel for a lot of other users.

But there's nothing like some good, ol' easy listen "Illbient", classic "Third Wave Ska Revival", obvious "Emo", or a home-town favorite "Vallenato".

As for the OT discussion - it's a tough balance indeed deciding on the right amount of 'detail'. I suck in information from every source I can get it. allmovie/IMDb for movies, allmovie/IMDb/TheTVDb for series, allmusic/wikipedia for popular music, cduniverse for classical, soundtrackcollector for soundtracks and VGMDb for game soundtracks. I'm still looking for a decent source for art. Sometimes I wonder if it'd be simpler to just stick with one or two basic fields and go to the beach a bit more often... But having lots of info enables you to do cool things with it, as Rick demonstrates quite well with his audience search (I'm sure that 'sissy' category gets plenty of use, mate ;))
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MrC

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2009, 11:58:08 pm »

Quote from: darichman
I can probably agree about not mixing media types (audio, video, images) too much...

I have a handful of CDs that came with music DVDs.  Are these audio? ... or video?  Both seem apropos to me, and it puts my head into an endless, baffled loop.  Turn off the TV, and its audio.  Turn it on.. video.  Almost like magic.
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darichman

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2009, 12:23:35 am »

I have a handful of CDs that came with music DVDs.  Are these audio? ... or video?  Both seem apropos to me, and it puts my head into an endless, baffled loop.  Turn off the TV, and its audio.  Turn it on.. video.  Almost like magic.

In my library... they'd be "music". Whether it is 'audio' or 'video' it doesn't matter - they can be used at any point to filter the results and limit to 'audio' files only or 'video files' only but tell you nothing about the content of the media. If you have tagged a video file as 'Music', then by absolute definition it is a Music Video, and never really needs tagging as such...

Whenever I come across something I'm not sure how to categorise, I ask myself the questions - 
"What was the creator setting out to do when they made this?" and
"What is the primary focus of this media?"
The answers to both would be 'music' (or maybe money ;D) for your example. The fact it is a video on a DVD merely reflects the method of delivery.
You could extend this concept as well to include sheet music (I do)... they are, after all, all grouped by the concept of 'Music'... but once again it all depends on your tastes.

*Note: I'm not advocating the above for default or standard use or anything - it's just the way I prefer to do things and I've found you can make some killer views this way - eg viewing all types of media related to a movie altogether... soundtracks, posters, screenplays, cast images, sheet music, trailers, special features can all be tagged "Film" and appear along with the movie. You can still filter by video at any point and watch your 'movies' in the traditional sense.
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rick.ca

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2009, 12:30:44 am »

If I don't use the default fields, are there areas of the program which require these to work properly?

Perhaps there should be two clearly discernible classes of standard fields. Mandatory fields would be those essential to normal program functions (e.g., file path, media type, last played, bookmark, etc.) These would be the only fields that cannot be deleted or have their type changed. Illustrative fields (I'm sure there's a better term) would together present a default data scheme for common media types. All of these would be fully configurable and could be deleted without consequence to normal program functions.
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rjm

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2009, 12:39:30 am »

I agree with darichman's last post.

In my case, I consider a "book+" as anything with information in it. That would include pdf books, mp3 audiobooks, xvid documentaries, dvd documentaries, mht blogs, mp3 podcasts, etc. etc..

By filtering my custom field Type to book+ and then using my custom field Topic to select the subject (for example Science\Physics) I can easily find anything in my collection. I can also use the standard Media Type field to filter down to Audio, Video, or Document as needed.
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darichman

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 12:54:19 am »

Does anyone remember the "Media Modes" icons from  ... MC11 or 12?

What if they returned, but worked as instant filters for Audio / Video / Image / Document  in any view scheme. They could be toggled independently and wouldn't change the tree like they used to, just filter what media type we are displaying. If the user forgets they have filters on and enter a view that would be empty with the filters on, a message could remind them or offer to "remove all filters"

That way [Media Type] is always available as a filter, wherever you are in the program, but isn't as highly emphasised as the first differentiating factor for organisation. The user doesn't need to 'commit' to a particular media type by being limited to a root/top level "Audio" or "Video" view... they could have more descriptive views built in (like mine or rjm's top level categories, and could filter the media type at will at any level...)

Just a thought.
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fitbrit

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2009, 12:55:14 am »

There are only two subtypes in any music collection: "Ours" before, and "Hers" after... the split.
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rjm

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2009, 01:04:29 am »

Does anyone remember the "Media Modes" icons from  ... MC11 or 12?

What if they returned, but worked as instant filters for Audio / Video / Image / Document  in any view scheme.

Great idea. I've been blowing off the aggrivating standard Audio/Image/Video views for a couple years now by hacking the language translation file and replacing them with useful views like "All", "Music", "Non-Fiction", "Family Photos & Videos", "Movies+", "Comedy", etc.  And I usually end up adding a pane into my custom views to filter on Media Type.

Your suggestion would tidy this up nicely.

[edit]
P.S. There are several problems with my hack. For example, when I go into Options\File Type I see "Family" instead of "Video". Or when I need to import an ifo I have to remember to drag it to Family. All of this is fine for me but fogettabot explaining this to my wife or kids.
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MrC

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 01:12:10 am »

Hmmm, curious.  I was thinking the idea of "multimedia" was the promise of blurring traditional media lines.  I wasn't thinking about the physical media, but the content.  There are some visually stunning pieces, that have wonderful soundtracks (Baraka).  The content is equally usable using either/both senses.

So, if I want to listen to the soundtrack, which is the DVD + movie, I wouldn't think to look under my Video collections.  Yet that is likely where I'd place it too.

When there are equally-weighted content streams, I'm not sure I could find a place in a bi-category taxonomy.

Pictures are historically 1d or 2d. Video was 3d, where the 3rd d is time instead of z.  Audio already includes time (to be useful).  Later, the audio media was included in the then multimedia of its day: talkies, which are n x (Pictures + Audio) x time.

So media seems to be a combination of our senses (currently only 2), dimensions, time.  And we seem to focus on either a single primary sense category (audio, picture), time (video), or the delivery mechanism (Document, Album, from the halcyon LP days), or as you say, author's intent.   One thinks of Aristotelian hylomorphism and ontology!  :-)

Imagine multimedia moving to, and including other senses... perhaps smell, touch or taste.  Would a food show where you could get the sense of taste from playback be Video or Gustator-io?  Or would an audio, video, olfactory pig-farm extravaganza be classified under Nose-io ?   Mmmm, sausages.   :-}
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hit_ny

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2009, 02:49:49 am »

But on the bright side, Discogs.com is good for a few laughs.

Discogs is THE place for anything electronic, very responsive to use & comprehensive. The styles on discogs are usually fairly close given my extended experience with it albeit not so developed with jazz. They do allow user corrections (unlike some others) so sign up and let em know.

I could easily say the very same you have about AMG & the way they categorise electronic, which is a real joke, try & squeeze maybe 50 differnt styles into the word electronica :)

Out of curiosity what style would you assign to that Ramsey Lewis album ?

Don't think anything he has done fits into hard-bop, that was more Art Blakey territory for the time.
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hit_ny

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2009, 03:07:55 am »

I think that's a good idea too, but it needs to be presented as a suggestion, not an unchangeable standard.

Thats what this whole thread boils down to isn't it :)

That we could use any term to describe whatever but are unable to do so.
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MusicHawk

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2009, 12:47:44 pm »

>> Whenever I come across something I'm not sure how to categorise, I ask myself the questions -
"What was the creator setting out to do when they made this?" and
"What is the primary focus of this media?"

Interesting comment which illustrates two fundamentally different ways to categorize (and two ways to spell categorise ;D).

Because I'm a radio station programmer, my focus is on MY use of the music track to serve MY audience, not to serve the original purpose, whatever it might be. Therefore, my categorization MUST have values that identify in the music in ways that let me organize and retrieve it later -- including ways I might not need or envision right now.

I have a few fields that store the original facts of the song/composer/artist/track/album, because if I have the info, why not enter it? But the original creator's purpose/focus doesn't matter to me except as historical perspective. My goal is to organize and PLAY music, so my major use of categorization is to support this.

I divide MC fields into three types:

Standard fields in MC, mostly that also are used by other media managers/players. Where useful I use them, such as Name, Artist, Genre, Tempo, Year, Album, Comments.

Custom multi-value fields that mostly parallel Standard fields but let me store and retrieve multiple values: Artists vs. Standard one-value field Artist, Composers vs. Standard one-value field Composer, etc.

Custom fields that provide key info I need to sort or select by that justifies its own field: Recording (Stereo/Mono/Rechanneled). Music Chart Position, and three fields to identify the source (CD, LP, 45, Tape, Download, TV, etc) plus original ID if applicable (UPC number, Album number or whatever) plus a date code to know when I ripped it.

Custom fields because I don't like MC's built-in behavior: Only one example, Rating. I avoid this field because of the bolted-in stars display which can be changed by a single click in a view/list, unlike other fields that first require entering edit mode. I put in too much work to have this value changed inadvertently, so I store my rating in a custom field. If MC (14?) someday provides control over the Rating field so it can be used as a normal numeric field, I'll switch back to it (this has been discussed several times in other threads).

I slightly customize a track's name to distinguish between different performances of the same song by the same artist, but I don't do this by changing the name itself. Right next to Name I have RecVer (recording version). It might contain VER1 or VER2 or TAKE3 or ALT-TAKE or LIVE-LONDON or LONG-VER or ALBUM or when a song was re-done at various times in an artist's career VER1958, VER1967, VER1992. Etc. Then via a Rename expression I combine this with Name to assure that each file has a unique name. I don't add my RecVer info to the end of the Name value because I use views by Name and I want to see every recording of a given song in one place, regardless of RecVer or Artist or anything else -- so all recordings of a song must have exactly the same Name.

But as I've said, the magic ingredient is MC's Keywords field because it is so versatile. For instance,

I could have a separate field for Decade (my library spans more than 100 years) but, while I enter the original recording year if known, I indicate the decade via Keyword values: 2000s, 1990, 1980s, etc.

I could have a field for primary musical instrument, but instead I have Keywords field values such as piano, guitar, trumpet, strings, brass, accordion, kazoo or whatever.

I identify certain special categories of music by having Keywords such as Beatles (to identify every song done by them OR their music by someone else) and Motown and Cars and Surf and Showtune and Movie and Live and whatever other term strikes me as "I'd like to find this and similar songs later".

I do the same with more Keywords to identify songs that fit special niches, such as Dinner, Lounge, Summer, Party, etc.

I also use Keywords to expand on Genre, though I considered adding a custom multi-value field Genres to do this (would be just as good). Genre gets the one term that most describes the track, but in Keywords I select other genre values as appropriate. Such as Rock, Pop, RB, Folk, EL (easy listening), BB (big band), Historic, Disco, etc -- trying to stick with common categories used by music stores/catalogs, but selecting multiple for some songs. Perhaps the most famous need for this is Ray Charles "I Can't Stop Loving You" because in 1962 it was on ALL the separate music charts, a unique (at the time) situation. So it has Keywords RB, Pop, Country, EL.

There's a bit more but you get the idea.

I know there are other fields that could do some of what I'm stuffing into Keywords, but again it seems faster to do this via Keywords because it lets me use any abitrary value I like, and I'm able to build the precise playlists I want by selecting on specific values. At times when I realize I didn't structure it correctly, MC gives me enough tools to move a value from Keywords to a separate field, or vice versa. Or to change a value across the entire library when I realize it isn't quite right.

The main dividing line between a separate field and a Keywords value is how I need to use it. A separate field is wonderful to build views grouped/sorted by the values in that field, isolated from (or perhaps cascaded with) other values. Where that attribute isn't needed, such as for smartlists, I use filters/expressions based on any combination of fields, including any arbitrary values from Keywords.

My point in detailing this is that MC power users (presumably most people using this forum) probably don't care about defaults. W can use the powerful architecture of MC to build almost any kind of custom system, so we are not the target of default category lists, views, playlists etc. -- we already tend to ignore or hack them. But MC would be a lot more warm and fuzzy to newbies and those who don't care to customize if it presented defaults similar to whatever else users already know -- maybe Amazon or Barnes & Noble music categories, for instance.


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MrC

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2009, 01:14:17 pm »

Excellent post which I believe hits the mark.

Custom multi-value fields that mostly parallel Standard fields but let me store and retrieve multiple values: Artists vs. Standard one-value field Artist, Composers vs. Standard one-value field Composer, etc.

I keep hoping this will no longer be necessary.  There are many users who would be happy to see support for multiple instances of the same tag (ARTIST).  This would eliminate your need to prepare a new field, duplicating values, and allow support for music tagged in MC on other devices/apps which do (correctly) support multiple instances of a tag (in speaking currently mostly towards FLAC).
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MusicHawk

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #29 on: August 08, 2009, 11:27:20 pm »

Per the comments about consistency helping users learn, use and like a product, I think MC makes confusing use of the term "Images".

First, MC's installation wizard presents a pretty box with three large graphics labeled AUDIO - PHOTOS - VIDEO. Cool. Except once the product is installed, there's nothing labeled PHOTOS anywhere. MC promises PHOTOS but provides IMAGES. Seems like NBD, except new and non-tech users get lost easily and confused even faster, and their only hope is to master some key terms and actions that provide comfort and stability. Why make them guess about synonyms?

Second, a photo is commonly understood to be a photograph, a still picture. Yet lots of other things can be or have images -- such as video and television. So why not call the photo library mode of MC Photos, the same as during installation? Because not all possible pictures are true photographs? That's a minor distinction compared with the less precise notion of Images. After all, a Video can be an image of a movie on film, or of a set of drawn images comprising a cartoon. A son can be the spitting image of his father, no camera required.

Third, MC uses the Image term for different entities and actions -- Image files in a main library, and separate Image File values aka Cover Art associated with Audio and Video files. And there's menu action Acquire Images that controls a scanner or a camera or links to online collections. But ultimately, what is being acquired is almost always a photo.

Of course, Microsoft and many others use the term (My) Pictures rather than Photos, adding a touch of confusion. But a Picture can be moving. Meanwhile, most people get that a photo is not a moving picture. Note that the most popular photo software is called Photoshop, not Pictureshop. (But also note that a nice, free Photoshop competitor is called Paint.NET, to toss in another term.)

Probably, in MC Photo would be a clearer term than Images as a main media type, just as stated in the installation wizard. Maybe Image should have a different meaning but never be used as a synonym for Photo.

Maybe Cover Art should always be called that, to distinguish from standalone Photos in the library.

Would it be too tough to change the word Image here and there in the code, so that attractive wizard graphic wouldn't have to be remade... and the difference between Photo and  cover art Image File and library Image and Acquire Image wouldn't have to be explained (as much). 

It'll drive you crazy to think too hard about these terms. And it's late Saturday night so why am I typing this? Because I've done a lot of user training/education and the factors that get in the way of understanding and confidence. I keep trying to introduce new users to MC, with limited acceptance. So I'm hoping that MC can become more intuitive and friendly for newbies by JR tweaking areas where confusion can arise.
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hit_ny

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2009, 05:09:56 am »

For discussion: How common is the need to mix media types in one application?

Not very often (excepting the generic file manager) because not many apps out there can do it. They mostly specialise in their respective fields and have their own specialised interfaces.

MC is an attempt at questioning the premise of not working with other media within the same app, trying to craft a media file manager that will allow one to do so.

Other than working with cover art, is there really a common need to dive into a mix of audio, images and video?

Tagging + maintenance whilst listening to music :)

If "all media soup" is not the norm for most users, a possible solution would be for MC to have different UI components (menu items, buttons, views...) for each of the three major media types -- audio (aka music, talk, sound), images (aka still pictures), video (aka moving pictures).

This goes back to having 3 different apps each with thier own idiosycratic interface. We did discuss this a cpl yrs back when JRiver decided to go from plays-it-all to does-it-all and the consensus was one could have a common interface no matter the media. An interface one was familar with.

MC could have a simple startup menu where the user chooses the media type to work with. Or MC could install three icons that start the program with a flag indicating which mode/UI to use. Starting MC for a particular media type would load the default library associated with it. In effect, the user could treat MC as three different apps.

Hard to find the point which pleases the most with this approach as its a zero-sum game :(

It took years to get the present interface to where it is. I suppose you could take out the irrelevant parts depending on the media in question but it could also cause some cognitive confusion.

The best that could be done is remove unrelated options from tool pop-ups but retain the overall look & feel.
 
(** Cover art contributes to the confusion because these images are not treated as such in the library. I've seen users click on the top Images link and wonder, reasonably, where are all the images they added to tracks. Cover art mysteriously is shown when viewing albums and tracks but otherwise is invisible to those not able or willing to dig into the plumbing. It is difficult to explain that there are images and there are Images, since even the tag/field that identifies a track's cover art is named "Image File". Of course, cover art that is stored as files (rather than embedded) can be loaded into an Images library, handy to see what's there but also risky, since an image's name or location could be changed, breaking the connection from the associated audio/video file. While the audio/video file knows what cover art image it uses, the image file doesn't know to which audio/video file it belongs -- possibly many).

Guess it works more by the order in which the assignment is made. You assign cover-art to music or video rather than the other way round.

Semantically speaking there is indeed a many:1 relationship between a media file & its associated cover art. No way to query to which media files an image file belongs to if at all. It is subordinate to the media file in this relationship :)

Quote from: MrC
But you started down a path which I hoped you would flush out more... the ability to more easily create views.  One example, for improvement.  Would it not be nice to be able to more directly manipulate any view, by say, dragging fields into various areas (eg. pane categories), move the panes around to the top/bottom/left, move a field to a Group By box (ex. Excel's pivot charts, or Outlook's Group By), etc. all showing live data results on the fly instead of having to go in and out of the options dialog?  Wouldn't it be great if View As pictorially showed what the view would look like?

One word against : Speed

They introduced this in V13 with edit viewscheme dialog and each time you moved things around there was a painful wait entirely proportional to how complex the view was. Course now the dialog was so big you could not even see what was behind it. Not everyone has a dual monitor setup.

Then just shuffling the order of fields in it meant an additional refresh and was thus completely unusable until the viewscheme was filtered to display just one item  >:(

Drag & drop is good for ppl new to the program to get something working quick. But after one gets more acquainted with the program, the options dialog was always just as precise and faster.

Course they removed that option so it makes it harder to modify existing view schemes now :(
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leezer3

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2009, 08:07:56 am »

Hmmm, curious.  I was thinking the idea of "multimedia" was the promise of blurring traditional media lines.  I wasn't thinking about the physical media, but the content.  There are some visually stunning pieces, that have wonderful soundtracks (Baraka).  The content is equally usable using either/both senses.

So, if I want to listen to the soundtrack, which is the DVD + movie, I wouldn't think to look under my Video collections.  Yet that is likely where I'd place it too.

I did that a long time ago  :)
I don't care whether the content of any given file is audio, video, image or data, rather where it fits into my viewschemes.

For discussion: How common is the need to mix media types in one application? Other than working with cover art, is there really a common need to dive into a mix of audio, images and video?  (See ** below for more on cover art.)
A lot more common than you would think :)
I've got a lot of videos which have associated hi-res photoshoots and other junk (Descriptions, commentaries, all sorts). The only logical place to view these is together in the same viewscheme.

Per the comments about consistency helping users learn, use and like a product, I think MC makes confusing use of the term "Images".

First, MC's installation wizard presents a pretty box with three large graphics labeled AUDIO - PHOTOS - VIDEO. Cool. Except once the product is installed, there's nothing labeled PHOTOS anywhere. MC promises PHOTOS but provides IMAGES. Seems like NBD, except new and non-tech users get lost easily and confused even faster, and their only hope is to master some key terms and actions that provide comfort and stability. Why make them guess about synonyms?

Second, a photo is commonly understood to be a photograph, a still picture. Yet lots of other things can be or have images -- such as video and television. So why not call the photo library mode of MC Photos, the same as during installation? Because not all possible pictures are true photographs? That's a minor distinction compared with the less precise notion of Images. After all, a Video can be an image of a movie on film, or of a set of drawn images comprising a cartoon. A son can be the spitting image of his father, no camera required.

Third, MC uses the Image term for different entities and actions -- Image files in a main library, and separate Image File values aka Cover Art associated with Audio and Video files. And there's menu action Acquire Images that controls a scanner or a camera or links to online collections. But ultimately, what is being acquired is almost always a photo.

Of course, Microsoft and many others use the term (My) Pictures rather than Photos, adding a touch of confusion. But a Picture can be moving. Meanwhile, most people get that a photo is not a moving picture. Note that the most popular photo software is called Photoshop, not Pictureshop. (But also note that a nice, free Photoshop competitor is called Paint.NET, to toss in another term.)

Probably, in MC Photo would be a clearer term than Images as a main media type, just as stated in the installation wizard. Maybe Image should have a different meaning but never be used as a synonym for Photo.

This all depends on where your images have come from IMHO. If you've taken them yourself, then photo is a reasonable description. For photos taken by other people, or images that aren't photos, then image is a much more reasonable description.

-Leezer-
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tcman41

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2009, 09:16:53 am »

OK, we'll switch media sub-type in the next build to:

  His
  Hers

It would definitely work here.  It's a nice, clean approach.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Well, some people have both parts, how could they manage their collection under this rule?  ::)

TC ;D ;D
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darichman

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2009, 06:15:50 am »

Per the comments about consistency helping users learn, use and like a product, I think MC makes confusing use of the term "Images".

This all depends on where your images have come from IMHO. If you've taken them yourself, then photo is a reasonable description. For photos taken by other people, or images that aren't photos, then image is a much more reasonable description.

I take something similar to leezer's approach - if it's a photo I took (or at least somebody I know took) then it's a photo. Even if it's scanned and not from a digital camera. I have these, along with home videos, in a section labeled "Personal" to separate them from commercial media. There are probably heaps more, but the other image descriptors I use are "Artwork", "Stock", "Coverart" and "Film" (for images associated with a movie, but which aren't coverart - cast photos, promo shots etc)

For discussion: How common is the need to mix media types in one application? Other than working with cover art, is there really a common need to dive into a mix of audio, images and video?  (See ** below for more on cover art.)

I think the trend seems to be
  Size*Diversity of Library → Abandonment of Audio/Image/Video Paradigm
  User experience            → Abandonment of Audio/Image/Video Paradigm

While I've said the Audio/Image/Video approach is a little too restrictive and overemphasised, it is something that a lot of users are familiar with, and should definitely remain in some form. As I said earlier, I think a return of the "media mode"-like icons to act as filters would be a great way to filter media type (Audio/Image/Video) on-the-fly, without needing to force the user to commit to a media type too early in their navigation. It would also mean we wouldn't need to create multiple views to facilitate different media types - we could simply toggle images "Off" and "On" for example once we're already in a view.

There are definite advantages to diversifying our main top-level categories (ie using categories like "Movies", "TV Shows", "Books", "Albums" etc rather than Audio/Image/Video as the first level discriminator)
1. It is more clear to the user which category they are assigning their media too ("Movie" is more descriptive than "video", "Photo" is more descriptive than "image")
2. Easier to create and handle views which span multiple media types (especially if "media-mode" icons returned as described above)
3. A good platform for creating views catering for more specific types of video, or more specific types of images, for example.
4. A good platform for sharing views, as more users will be using the same fields

Example 1
A media category could be "Film" and could appear in the tree
A field like [Movie] or [Title] could be used to tag the name of a film
Any media related in any way to film could be tagged as [Media Subtype]=Film and tagged with the appropriate movie name
This would include movies, trailers, posters, screenplays, images related to the movie, cast photos, the soundtrack - anything you would normally associate with the movie.
Clicking on the tree entry would list all media tagged as Film (ie a mixture of all the above). Clicking on a movie title in the pane (or thumbnail) would limit to a particular movie.
The user should now be seeing all the media they have related to the movie they have selected. They can then limit the media type to Video (to see the movie, trailers and special features), to audio (to hear the soundtrack) or to images (to see posters, movie images etc).
I know the setup sounds a bit complicated, and that's the point - if it was all there for the user from the get-go, you have something really powerful, and really useful. Whenever a user imports a file related to a movie, they tag as [Media Subtype]=Film and [Title]=Braveheart (for example) - and it will appear nicely in predefined default views built into the program.

Example 2
A media category could be "Music" and could appear in the tree
Any media related to music could be tagged as [Media Subtype]=Music
This would include the audio files themselves (naturally), as well as album coverart, log files, music videos etc.
Why the need to categorise audio files as "music"? To exclude audiobooks, speeches, comedy sketches etc
The tree item "Music" would show all music files.
The user may decide to leave "Image" and "Documents" off (to filter out coverart and extraction logs etc from their views)
Currently, it is often difficult to view additional files such as these without entering into the customise view dialog and changing the filters.
The user could switch to "Video only" to see music videos
If the user was just interested in audio music, then they'd just leave the audio icon on and never bother changing it - the point is they'd always have the option to do all of the above, and it's reasonably intuitive (just click on the Audio/Image/Video icons to display the media you're interested in)

It just seems to me this would be a great way to standardise our organisation a little bit (which helps put us all on the same page) without limiting us in any way (we can still create our views and add our own categories, just that we'll be using the same fields instead)

For this to work well, whatever field we end up using to categorise should be a list field, as some media files may belong to more than one media category (eg a movie soundtrack is "Film" and "Music" and so should appear in both)

In summary, if I could put forward some requests from this thread:
1. Consider an on-the-fly filter for Audio/Image/Video/Document from any view
2. Consider allowing us to agree on some top-level categories for use in the tree and throughout the program
3. These would be used in a field for categorisation, be it [Media Subtype] or a new field.
4. Make this field list-type (so a single file can appear in more than one category - there are many case examples of this)
5. Make this field completely editable so users can add additional categories if they wish (I may wish to organise my grasshopper collection, for example)

We don't ask for much, do we? ;)
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MusicHawk

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2009, 01:53:36 pm »

Good discussion, but I want to be clear on one of my main points: MC's customer base could expand if the product was friendlier to new/non-tech users.

One barrier is that MC has some inconsistent terminology that confuses new users and seems unnecessary.

During installation, the wizard brags that MC is to "Collect, Organize and Play" MUSIC, PHOTOS, VIDEO. That's what it says in large letters. (Not a word about Audio or Images.) So at one time JR decided those three actions and those three media types were important to users. Isn't this still true?

But within the program, where the user goes after installing it, those words are NOT USED. Instead, the UI presents three main media types: Audio, Images, Video. What happened to MUSIC and PHOTOS? They are not synonyms for Audio and Images, but subsets. OK, to a thinking person, no problem. But most new users don't want to think, they just want to DO.

Why be inconsistent? Why not use the mainstream terms that JR itself chose to describe MC's benefits?

For new users who almost entirely want to  "Collect, Organize and Play" MUSIC, PHOTOS, VIDEO -- according to JR (and according to the terms used in many other products) -- shouldn't the user interface make this obvious and simple?

Advanced users can grasp that Music can be any type of audio, and Photos can be any type of images, and Video can be, well, movies. My argument is that the UI should be labeled for "normal" users, so only the advanced users need to do the "harder" thinking.

For all users there's a separate challenge in getting cover art under control.
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Managing my media with JRiver since Media Jukebox 8 (maybe earlier), currently use Media Center for Audio/Music and Photos/Videos.
My career in media spans Radio, TV, Print, Photography, Music, Film, Online, Live, Advertising, as producer, director, writer, performer, editor, engineer, executive, owner. An exhausting but amazing ride.

JimH

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2009, 02:05:16 pm »

Musichawk,
Thanks for your good intentions, but this isn't going to change.  Life is full of inconsistencies  -- women's skirts, car seats, color, etc.  "Variety is not the spice of life.  It is the very stuff of it."

Audio is music, but it is also audiobooks, lectures, bird songs, funny sounds, etc.

Images include photos, paintings, logos and other graphics, even typography.

All kinds of video

It's our job to make the broad distinctions, yours to carve them up any way you wish.

Jim

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raym

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2009, 05:22:53 pm »

Quote
MC's customer base could expand if the product was friendlier to new/non-tech users.

I don't agree with statements like this. I don't think it would make any difference. This is not what's holding this product back from the masses. The thing is, I don't personally care either. The reason I chose mc over all the other similar apps available is because it isn't dumbed down and is well suited to the more advanced user. This is actually a key selling point in my opinion. 
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pbair

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2009, 04:31:00 am »

...Visitors are often impressed with MC when I show it off, so much so that I have managed to persuade at least a dozen over the years to purchase the software...
darichman,
Can you post some screen shots of some of the customized views you've set up?

patrick
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MrHaugen

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2009, 05:14:26 am »

I don't agree with statements like this. I don't think it would make any difference. This is not what's holding this product back from the masses. The thing is, I don't personally care either. The reason I chose mc over all the other similar apps available is because it isn't dumbed down and is well suited to the more advanced user. This is actually a key selling point in my opinion. 

I do not agree. One of the biggest problems of MC is the steep learing curve. That will put off some new customers. The best sides of MC is that it's highly costumizable. If we loose that, we also loose our primary customers today, and that is NOT a good thing either. It's a fine balance. You don't have to sacrifice much customizability to make the MC more intuitive though. If some work was put into making more Wizards, a better overall standard setup, or some choises that the users choose at the first start of Theater View for exemple, the entry level for new customers would be so much easier.
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darichman

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2009, 05:54:05 am »

darichman,
Can you post some screen shots of some of the customized views you've set up?

hmmm... here's a bunch of screens I took. I guess they show a spread of how one might choose to organise. It's just one way, naturally, and is always a work in progress. A quick look at tree on the left in the shots of standard view will give an idea of my broad level categories. The Audio/Video/Image ones haven't been touched.

What's important though is the filters behind the views - ie how MC knows which files to display for which views, the idea behind this thread.

Screens
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Afrosheen

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #40 on: August 18, 2009, 01:58:00 am »

how did you get the cover art view for the TV Shows and Films?

edit: is it possible to create sub-stacks, i.e. for seasons, with each stack having its own cover art?
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MrHaugen

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #41 on: August 18, 2009, 05:08:59 am »

hmmm... here's a bunch of screens I took.

That looks really nice! If just such Movie and Series display was the default... And not to mention automatic download of cover art and data at the same time. If even MC noobs were able to get such a setup, I think the the possible user base for MC14 would explode.
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pbair

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #42 on: August 18, 2009, 05:39:24 am »

hmmm... here's a bunch of screens I took. I guess they show a spread of how one might choose to organise. It's just one way, naturally, and is always a work in progress. A quick look at tree on the left in the shots of standard view will give an idea of my broad level categories. The Audio/Video/Image ones haven't been touched.

What's important though is the filters behind the views - ie how MC knows which files to display for which views, the idea behind this thread.

Screens

Very impressive!  Where can I get THAT plugin?  :)



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darichman

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2009, 12:52:46 am »

how did you get the cover art view for the TV Shows and Films?

Very impressive!  Where can I get THAT plugin?  :)

Not a plugin, just careful organisation and lots of custom fields.

1. Create a custom field (or fields) to specify what sort of media you're dealing with (Film, Television etc - ie. all the categories I mentioned in the first post). I use [Type 1] and [Type 2] for two levels of organisation. Depending on the size of your library you can probably get away with one field though ;)
2. Create a custom field to tag movie or show titles (or hijack a default field like album). I use [Movie]
3. Get coverart. Look at some of the plugins around or just download your own (I usually do) and assign. You need to decide with series whether you want to keep individual episode thumbnails, use series thumbnails, or use a single show thumbnail for all episodes. See here for more details.
4. The film view is fairly easy, as there is (usually) just one file per movie. Just create a view with a filter ("set rules for file display") of [Type]=Film (or whatever you're using) with no categories
5. For series, create a view with a filter of [Type]=Television. Add a category [Movie] (or whichever field you use for movie/series titles). You may wish to add a [Season] category if you want to have an additional level for navigating season.
6. You can swap between thumbnails, lists etc by clicking on 'Toggle List style' in theatre view.

Hope that helps. As I've mentioned, it would be great if all those steps weren't necessary and some of this were just built-in

edit: is it possible to create sub-stacks, i.e. for seasons, with each stack having its own cover art?

You can definitely create stacks to expand/collapse seasons, or you can use Season as a cetagory in theatre view, but you can't have different coverart at different levels
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MrHaugen

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2009, 02:05:56 am »

As I've mentioned, it would be great if all those steps weren't necessary and some of this were just built-in

Yes. Exactly. I hope something will be improved here over the next builds. Would help a lot of noe users get the same functionality that we have today.

One thing that we can not do though, is to get the count of watched not watched within a category (maby with some expressions, but I don't know how). If J River could introduce a field that counts this number, and a way for us to add Watched/Not watched in a Info Pane for all the categories we want below a certain category (series, movies etc), we would get the count for each series, season or genre. Then we would be well on our way of having the same functionality that other Video and Series centric media centers have today. Even though some of the organizing stuff ahve to be done manually at first.
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Afrosheen

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Re: Media categories and organisation
« Reply #45 on: September 04, 2009, 07:14:18 am »

Couldn't we add a new category of "plug-ins" where users download library views that will best fit their library of media files?
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