Topic: Tinkering and thinking about the Synapse again (Read 4513 times)

JimH · « **on:** September 14, 2009, 06:04:45 pm »

Matt and I spent a couple hours at my house today, just tweaking things to get TV playback right on my living room PC. I won't go into the boring details, but there were a lot of twists and turns and blind alleys. I felt like a rat in a maze, but it was Matt who was doing the hard work. He solved a problem that I couldn't.

The processes of updating drivers, updating the BIOS, selecting filters, setting them, messing with Windows sound settings, soundcard settings, etc. was just no fun.

The obvious question came up: "Why?" "Why does it have to be this way?" There is an answer, I think. It's that so many independant companies are involved, and the rules aren't always obvious.

My desire as a consumer would be to have a system that works across many kinds of hardware from many vendors. Drivers Update for the People.

It made me think that one of JRiver's next steps might be to specify the Synapse (our HTPC) and an automated method for updating its drivers and settings, so that things learned by the root could flow to the leaf nodes.

Just throwing out this idea for you to chew on.

datdude · « **Reply #1 on:** September 14, 2009, 06:29:48 pm »

Yes, I agree 100% here!!!!!!

In my opinion there are also things like dealing with pop-ups form updates or system messages from Windows. It took me forever to eliminate all of these things so that when I am in Theater View nothing interrupts me.

gappie · « **Reply #2 on:** September 14, 2009, 06:36:47 pm »

does it work on 240 volt?

Quote from: JimH on September 14, 2009, 06:04:45 pm

Matt and I spent a couple hours at my house today, just tweaking things to get TV playback right on my living room PC. I won't go into the boring details, but there were a lot of twists and turns and blind alleys. I felt like a rat in a maze, but it was Matt who was doing the hard work. He solved a problem that I couldn't.

The processes of updating drivers, updating the BIOS, selecting filters, setting them, messing with Windows sound settings, soundcard settings, etc. was just no fun.

no its terrible. and in my opinion, something that can not be asked from a consumer. especially when he only want to listen to some music, see his images and watch the videos. the thing i dont see is the many kinds of hardware inside the synapse. and do you think one of those boxes could please enough of the users. would it update my rme fireface drivers, my tranzport drivers etc. how about the different firewalls and virus scanners.

i would love to see a box that would just work. but do you really belive its doable.

gab

JimH · « **Reply #3 on:** September 14, 2009, 07:09:20 pm »

Quote from: gappie on September 14, 2009, 06:36:47 pm

i would love to see a box that would just work. but do you really belive its doable.

It is definitely doable technically. The problem is probably more of a user needs question. You just mentioned special needs, for example.

We did something like this about 15 years ago, when we were an ISP in Minneapolis for small businesses. The machine was Linux based. We tried to lock it down so owners couldn't wreck it, and that was too much to ask.

park · « **Reply #4 on:** September 14, 2009, 08:14:28 pm »

I would say that the most important thing for you guys to nail is the filter chain for video playback. If customizing your own hardware is one way to that goal then it is a good idea. If writing your own splitter/filter would achieve the same thing, then I would go with that.

Personally I would say that the latter is less work long term. If you start selling hardware, you constantly have to update it to be newer/faster/sexier etc. By now, if people buy a dell or a vaio, though it might be loaded with shi*t, it is pretty much guraranteed to run properly with all the right drivers etc.

The places that most of us trip up on when we start playing with JRiver MC is video playback, and sharing our media throughout the house. You could ease the playback pain if we didnt need to rely on external filter packs (or if you installed them for us transparently). You could ease the sharing pain, by suggesting a "workflow" for users. For example, you could make a WHS addin which would have the "main" MC loaded on it, and use your new library server improvements to have all the other users connect to it. At the moment there are many ways to share media through the house, but the user has to come up with them by themselves and then find out if MC works that way or not. I would be more aggressive in how you suggest we use the program. You wouldnt necessarily have to handcuff people into using one feature set, just use web pages in the software more to show users what is possible.

If you do decide to do hardware, dont market it as an HTPC, or a PC of any kind. Market it as a "Media Center" akin to the way Apple push their "Apple TV".

Magic_Randy · « **Reply #5 on:** September 14, 2009, 08:22:42 pm »

If you proceed with the Synapse solution, do you have any rough image of the price? That would probably be a big factor in how many units could be sold.

JimH · « **Reply #6 on:** September 14, 2009, 09:05:39 pm »

Quote from: park on September 14, 2009, 08:14:28 pm

By now, if people buy a dell or a vaio, though it might be loaded with shi*t, it is pretty much guraranteed to run properly with all the right drivers etc.

I bought a VAIO P a few months ago. It needed a DirectX update before Theater View would run.

JimH · « **Reply #7 on:** September 14, 2009, 09:07:10 pm »

Quote from: Magic_Randy on September 14, 2009, 08:22:42 pm

If you proceed with the Synapse solution, do you have any rough image of the price? That would probably be a big factor in how many units could be sold.

I think we could do one for $400, but doing one that I would like would need to retail around $600 or $700. Understand that this is a wild guess at this point.

MrHaugen · « **Reply #8 on:** September 17, 2009, 03:28:18 am »

I think Park mentioned the most important things here.

My concerns are:
- If you lock the system down to prevent the system to get unstable or off track in any way, you'll have costumers complaining and doing anything to go past the lock down.
- If you don't there will be to many variations to guarantee a up to date Media Center

You'll also have the problem of adding new hardware types as the time passes. Better CPU's, new motherboards to support them, bigger disks, faster RAM. And then you'll end up with several models who you still have to support.
MC could of course run on one type of computer for plenty of years, but to think that costumers do not want to use their machines for other things would be foolish.

A thought should also go towards what kind of recourses you have available. I would not be thrilled if 25% of the staff jumps on this project so the development of MC gets slower.

As Park mentioned, the biggest problem with MC today is the codecs and filters. Especially for video. Instead of providing a hardware solution I would consider building better automated setup with suggested filter and codec packs. This would solve most users normal tweaking needs. It would be very helpful for newbies.

There's a lot of people asking why this and that don't play. The answer is usually CCCP, and they're all happy again. Why not help the user with this when installing MC? Ask users if they want help with Video playback, and directly link them to a download page, or do it even more automatic like some of the other components that get's installed during MC setup.
A simple system with Video and Sound setup Wizards could help a lot of users with normal problems, and it could be easily disabled for the advanced users.

I do not believe that the driver problem will be the main concern in the future. Windows 7 proves that. There are hardly any drivers it does not detect, and they are updated pretty often too. Users get new drivers or updates through windows update. Hardware problem solved. I hope...

jmone · « **Reply #9 on:** September 17, 2009, 05:37:05 am »

Others have tried locking stuff down in both HW (all disc players) and SW (VLC, CodecPacks etc). The issue is the diversity of possible combinations required to support all the media types out there for:
- Source (file, streaming)
- Splitters (all the many many container formats)
- Navigation (DVD, Blu-ray, others)
- Chapters (couple of types)
- Subtitle (several types)
- Video Decoders (many many types)
- Audio Decoders (many many types)
- Video Renderer
- Audio Renderer

The problem I've always had is that there is ALWAYS a compromise of what combinations work well for the various media you have....so you end up mucking around with all the various settings. If this is what JR is aiming at then it would be the first to have a comprehensive set that addressed all of these above.

JimH · « **Reply #10 on:** September 17, 2009, 07:16:45 am »

raym,
I split your post here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=53925.0

It is important, I agree, but it deserves its own thread.

Jim

JimH · « **Reply #11 on:** September 17, 2009, 12:57:18 pm »

Here's a proposal.

Synapse 1.0 -- Low end -- a very small PC, aimed at low cost, music only. Mini-itx, Atom CPU, 512MB memory, 320GB disk, VGA or S-Video connection to a monitor. Under $450.

Synapse 2.0 -- Mid-range -- a micro-atx motherboard and case with Core Duo Intel, 2GB memory, 1TB drive, DVD drive. Under $700. Under 40 watts at idle.

Synapse 3.0 -- High end, 6GB, 2TB drive, Blu-ray drive, over $1000, custom configs possible.

hit_ny · « **Reply #12 on:** September 17, 2009, 02:20:34 pm »

Quote from: JimH on September 14, 2009, 06:04:45 pm

My desire as a consumer would be to have a system that works across many kinds of hardware from many vendors.

What if you applied that thought to the stage after MC ?

Quote

so that things learned by the root could flow to the leaf nodes

I'd like to interpret this as the stuff on the periphery

Tight(er) integration with portable players + tremote and other devices that can interact with MC. Not as much flowing to the leaf nodes but being better integrated with them.

Looking at the poll in the earlier thread, under 40% were interested and 30% were maybe, that could turn out to be 70 for or 60 against. Your odds here seem 50-50 as many ppl like to build thier own.

How do you make a business case with 50-50 ?

Then again its fair to say this is what the more tech-savvy ppl think and the less able could very well think otherwise, your idea to make it easier implies this is the kind of user you want to target.

Do you think you could tranparently handle all the permutations mentioned by jmone ?

..so that it all 'just works'.

The problem is evolution of these parameters in the future and being able to continually cater to them.

One point in favour is you will have a standard configuration build to cater for compared to the much larger mix of machines ppl use MC for currently. You would be pushing out any windows updates or drivers to the users than somebody else, becomes possible to tweak the system for performance and lock it down (virus wise) a little more.

If you pull it of you could have a turn-key solution at a fraction of the cost of a Kaleidscape system

leezer3 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 17, 2009, 05:28:52 pm »

First thought- You're way overspeccing on drives.
Anyone who's thinking of buying one of these is almost certainly already going to own MC on a 'main' box, where all their media is currently stored, and IMHO all you need is a max of 80gb or so to allow for TV recording.

Second- If you're looking at this seriously, you need some key features:
1. HDMI out. Most users are likely to want to connect to a TV.
2. A decent audio card- You can get OEM versions of some stuff (X-Fi for example, although I'd not reccomend their drivers) for pretty cheap, and I think this would help to attract the audiophile segment.
3. Gigabit network- Chucking round 1080p files needs bandwidth.

Cheers

-Leezer-

ThoBar · « **Reply #14 on:** September 17, 2009, 07:42:51 pm »

I'll take a synapse 3 please.

oh wait, darn just built my own, but yours looks significantly better.

I also agree with most of leezer's point apart from the drive size... I have found that the absolute minimum for TV recording is 300GB, preferably more. I like to watch/record a number of HD sporting events whose file sizes end up over 50GB quite regularly, which are stored until I get time to watch, and obviously other recordings happen on top of these.

JimH · « **Reply #15 on:** September 17, 2009, 07:50:20 pm »

Quote from: hit_ny on September 17, 2009, 02:20:34 pm

How do you make a business case with 50-50 ?

50-50 are excellent odds. We normally have a 2% chance or a .2% chance.

ThoBar · « **Reply #16 on:** September 18, 2009, 01:13:08 am »

Just a thought, packaging a pre-configured 'Tremote' capable touchscreen device as an option would be a really good idea too... IMO

[edit]

Also... I'd be willing to pay a bit more for a solution that includes the best of breed codecs (PureVideo, CoreAVC etc), especially if there is an option for online, behind the scenes updates (subscription based or higher initial price is ok by me).

MrHaugen · « **Reply #17 on:** September 18, 2009, 02:05:41 am »

Quote from: confishy on September 18, 2009, 01:13:08 am

Just a thought, packaging a pre-configured 'Tremote' capable touchscreen device as an option would be a really good idea too... IMO

[edit]

Also... I'd be willing to pay a bit more for a solution that includes the best of breed codecs (PureVideo, CoreAVC etc), especially if there is an option for online, behind the scenes updates (subscription based or higher initial proce is ok by me).

I thought about some of the same things my self. There is just so much variations and needs of users to make a standard HTPC, with all stuff being updated in the background and everything working as intended.

It might be easier to concentrate on the other parts of a true media system. Like Trimotes and simpler media Clients. Only problem we have is that you can't really have a MC server i the house, and then use the Trimote on the HTPC right?

A payed service with the best of the codecs packed together and updated online would be great. But again there might be a lot to consider when playing with codecs and filters...

JimH · « **Reply #18 on:** September 19, 2009, 06:41:53 pm »

Moved this out from another board. Any thoughts you have would be very welcome.

It was asked a few weeks ago what our mission was~~, and I said "any media, anywhere, anytime"~~.

Edit -- It's "any media, any time, any place".

The Synapse is part of that idea. The Media Center Remote is another part.

So is One Remote. So is Performer (our music service that also has music videos).

JimH · « **Reply #19 on:** September 20, 2009, 07:08:47 am »

Quote from: JimH on September 19, 2009, 06:41:53 pm

"any media, any time, any place".

This started a related thread.

fitbrit · « **Reply #20 on:** September 20, 2009, 10:24:55 am »

For the Synapse one, I'd implore you to use an nvidia ion board with a decent GPU built in. It'll play high definition h264 media without a hitch and has HDMI output from a small mini ITX format. It costs just a little more, but can have a dual core atom processor and is far more appropriate for home media playing.

skeeterfood · « **Reply #21 on:** September 21, 2009, 09:02:00 pm »

Quote from: fitbrit on September 20, 2009, 10:24:55 am

For the Synapse one, I'd implore you to use an nvidia ion board with a decent GPU built in. It'll play high definition h264 media without a hitch and has HDMI output from a small mini ITX format. It costs just a little more, but can have a dual core atom processor and is far more appropriate for home media playing.

But Hulu, YouTube, ... basically anything using Flash still don't work worth well on an Atom do they?

-John

fitbrit · « **Reply #22 on:** September 21, 2009, 10:25:30 pm »

Dunno about you, but I'd rather have something that doesn't handle hi def Flash media (yet?) than something that doesn't handle high def Flash media AND doesn't handle hi-def h264 VC-1 either.

newsposter · « **Reply #23 on:** September 21, 2009, 10:53:27 pm »

Before spec'ing the hardware the software stack needs to be defined FIRST.

Included in the "software stack" is how tightly the appliance is going to be locked down, backup/restore/recover procedures & software, etc, etc.

Things like MC, codecs, filters, drivers, etc are childs play compared to how the machines will behave in a restore/recover condition.

I'll bet that once the three software stacks/feature sets are fully defined, your hardware spec's will fall right into place.

johnnyboy · « **Reply #24 on:** September 22, 2009, 03:37:41 am »

Quote from: JimH on September 17, 2009, 12:57:18 pm

Here's a proposal.

Synapse ...

Maybe I'm just a small fish hanging around with the big boys and so out of my league but these all seem pretty expensive to me. I am seeing new desktops for sale that are pretty high spec and powerful on ebay for as little as £150.
Granted these are little cases so more expensive but they're quite a big chunk more.

How about a 4th option offered - a media server in a normal sized box with normal sized parts. People wouldn't put it under their TV but its the kind of box that us small fish could buy and hide in a cupboard or out of sight somewhere that would still give us a full, easy to use, media server for our pads. Media servers are HUGELY desireable even when not placed in plain sight.

INTERACT FORUM

Author Topic: Tinkering and thinking about the Synapse again (Read 4513 times)