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[glynor]

So.... I'm gonna ask for some help here, somewhat because I'm to lazy/busy to figure it out on my own.  However, I figure I help enough people from time to time that I can afford to call in some favors on this one.

I use MC for all of my long-term media management needs.  My entire substantial music, photos, and videos library is all managed-by and generally used through MC14.  However, the one other major media application that I've been using for years is BeyondTV for my "TiVO-like" functions.  Since moving my entire home network (sans the OSX machines) over to Windows 7, I've become increasingly displeased with the performance of BeyondTV in this role.  I've had a number of issues with it, which impact everyday use, and have been making me (and perhaps more importantly, my wife) annoyed with it on a daily basis.

So, I'm considering abandoning BeyondTV for an alternative.  I know that MC's Television support has advanced substantially over the past year or so since I last investigated the possibility of using it, but I'm really not sure where we stand on a few make-or-break features that I need for my setup.  So, I'm going to write up a list of a few features that I'm unsure if MC can handle... Can someone help me out by letting me know if MC can do these things, and if so, how it works?  Thanks!

1. Tuner and Hardware support.  I have three tuners currently, and I need to make sure they'll all work with MC.  I'm also very likely going to replace the oldest of these tuners with a new device shortly, so I need to check that one as well.  I might, if it comes out soon and works well, choose to replace this tuner instead with a Hauppauge CableCard tuner, depending on pricing, availability, and other factors.
          a. ATI Theater Pro 550 PCI Tuner (hardware MPEG-2) - this one will likely be replaced in a month or two
          b. ATI Theater Pro 650 PCI Tuner (hardware MPEG-2)
          c. Hauppauge HD-PVR, connected to my Motorola Digital Cable box via component and SPDIF coax.
          d. Replacement Card: Hauppauge WinTV-HVR 2250 Dual Tuner PCIe Combo card (dual, independent hardware MPEG-2).

2. External cable box control.  I have my Hauppauge HD-PVR connected to my Motorola Digital Cable box.  The Hauppauge HD-PVR includes a built-in IR Blaster, that I use to change channels on my cable box.  On BeyondTV, this function is all integrated.  During initial setup of the tuner you simply "teach" BTV each of the number keys (plus "enter") on your remote control for the cable box one at a time, set some other delay, repeat, and number padding settings, and then it handles all of the channel changing for you seamlessly.  Is MC capable of this?  Can I use two or three separate external tuners via additiona USB-UIRT blasters if I eventually purchase additional HD-PVR devices (and have them properly keep track of which device they're attached to and change the channels appropriately)?

3. Local Network Placeshifting  This is the feature that I need that I think is most likely to prevent me from using MC at this time.  All of the tuners listed above are attached to my server machine in the basement exclusively.  In fact, I don't even have cable TV coax run throughout my house.  It only runs into my server area in the basement.  The way I have it set up now is that one copy of BeyondTV is always running on my server machine in the basement.  It handles all recording and capture functions.  I rarely (if ever) actually WATCH TV down there, but it has all the hard drives and noisy fans and big, ugly equipment.  When I want to actually watch TV, I use BeyondTV Link on one of my other computers in the house (mostly my HTPC, but also the office PC and my laptop) to connect to this "server" and I'm able to watch and use BeyondTV just as if the tuners were all connected locally.  This includes BOTH watching pre-recorded content AND Live TV.  The full channel guide is available on any machine on the network where I install BeyondTV Link, and I can watch anything I want.  It even works across my wireless network (though not super-reliably, which is one of my issues with BTV currently).

I know that I'd probably be able to watch pre-recorded content on remote copies of MC (because I could connect to the server's library and they'd be in the library for me to watch them).  However, do I also have access to the program guide data and the ability to watch live TV seamlessly just as if the tuners were actually locally attached?

4. WAN Placeshifting.  The three things listed above are my only "dealbreakers" for using MC for this task.  However, one other function currently available in BeyondTV and much of it's competition is the ability to also placeshift pre-recorded content across the Internet.  I can actually just use a web browser and go to the webserver built into the BeyondTV server from anywhere in the world and browse all of my pre-recorded content and watch shows through a silverlight player component that it uses.  It is pretty slick, and it actually compresses the content to H264 on-the-fly to a bitrate appropriate for the connection you happen to be using at the time (it tests the speed of the connection before starting the stream).  Is this possible using MC in any way?  Like I said, this isn't a dealbreaker, because I actually use it fairly rarely in practice, but it is cool to be able to watch a show here or there while I'm traveling -- especially during the holidays and for business trips.  I can't watch live TV using this method (though I think SageTV can even do this), but that's not a big deal.

So, that's it.  All of the rest (integrated program guide, scheduling, and all of that) I'm reasonably sure has been brought up to speed over the past version or two of MC.  Any general description of how setting up this stuff, and how you set up the tuners as well, might be useful, but only if my three dealbreakers don't exclude MC for possible use.

Thanks in advance!

[JimH]

glynor,
You're going to have to try it to get a good feel for MC's TV now, but here are some quick answers.

1.  Those cards should work.

2.  External control -- a Media Center Remote can be taught to send commands to an IR blaster.  It would take a little time to program.

3.  You can watch recorded TV from one PC on another PC.  If you needed live TV, I'd add a simple USB TV stick in the second location.

4.  Nothing other than #3.

It would be great to see you beat on the TV because I know you'd find simple ways we could improve it.

Jim

[glynor]

3.  You can watch recorded TV from one PC on another PC.  If you needed live TV, I'd add a simple USB TV stick in the second location.

That's as I expected.  Unfortunately, that isn't really an option.  First off, I need to be able to watch (but still pause, ff, and rw) live HD video on my HDTV, which means access to my HD-PVR and cable box.  I don't want those in my living room anyway, and I really don't want all of the assorted hard drives required for the storage capacity I am accustomed to up in the living room (with their associated fans and noise).

And, besides, the way it works now, I can watch live TV on my laptop anywhere I want, even in the garage, with no wires at all.  This comes in surprisingly handy when we have people over.  About a month ago we all had a great time out by the fire-pit in the back yard talking and hanging out, even though there was some sort of major game on (I'm not a football guy, at least of the American variety, but a bunch of my friends are).  Just grabbed the laptop and we could sit by the fire and watch the game till the battery ran out on the laptop, which kept everyone happy.  Plus, I can also watch HDTV using the computer in my office (which has a couch-bed, so is good for guests too).

And, on top of it, like I mentioned... I don't even have cable coax run anywhere in my house but into the basement.  That was one of the benefits of putting everything down there.  I was able to pull the entire rats-nest of cables out of my living room, which made my wife very happy.

That's too bad, but like I said... It is as I expected.  I'll have to check out some other products.

One other thing though, since I'm curious...

2.  External control -- a Media Center Remote can be taught to send commands to an IR blaster.  It would take a little time to program.

What does this entail?  Since I already have a UIRT (IR Blaster), why would I need a Media Center remote?  I have my cable-box's remote, and I already have a RF remote for my HTPC (and on the other systems I use the easily accessible keyboard generally)...  I'm just wondering what it would entail.

The goal would be to have a program guide in MC, which lists all of the available channels.  If I choose a channel available on one of my regular tuners, it should just use one of them.  However, if I choose a channel only available on my external cable box (basically any channel above 120-ish), I'd need it to automatically change the channel on the cable box and start recording through the HD-PVR.

[glynor]

FWIW... All of those features work well in BeyondTV currently.  The main three issues I'm having are these:

1. It will sporadically freeze when you start video playback of something recorded by my HD-PVR, and you have to kill the process manually (which is a pain because the application is a full-screen, 3D app so you have to ctrl-alt-delete to get out of it).  This appears to be Windows 7 x64 specific (maybe Vista too), and specific to HD H264 recordings in TS containers.  I'm not sure if it is BTV or CoreAVC, but something is messing up.  MC does NOT exhibit this problem with those same exact recordings.

2. If I'm watching a previously-recorded show on my HTPC (using the "link" application), and the server starts a new recording down in the basement, the program will often freeze completely for 30-90 seconds and then suddenly wake back up and kick you to the very end of the current file.  This is annoying because it completely loses your "spot" in the video, and it is disruptive when you are watching, obviously.  I'm sure MC wouldn't have this issue either.

3. Watching HD video files over my Wireless-N network on my laptop can sometimes "stutter".  The problems don't appear to be related to throughput though.  I think what happens is that it isn't error correcting well.  It works fine most of the time, even with weak signals.  But occasionally, it will start stuttering and it won't stop until you completely quit out of the program.  It is as-if it gets one little bit of incorrect (or missing) data, but then can never recover until you completely quit out.  MC works fine watching the same exact files over my network.  Occasionally the video will freeze or "stutter" for a second or two if I get a really weak signal on the wireless, but it works fine the vast majority of the time, and even when those problems happen, it fixes itself quickly without needing to close the application.

Other than those issues, though... All of the stuff I listed above works perfectly in BTV.  It's just that I like the MC playback engine and UI SO much better, that I hoped it had advanced to the point where I could really think about using it to replace my entire setup (which would be better in a TON of ways).

I'm probably going to check out SageTV, which has the added benefit of being Mac compatible.

[JimH]

That's as I expected.  Unfortunately, that isn't really an option.  First off, I need to be able to watch (but still pause, ff, and rw) live HD video on my HDTV, which means access to my HD-PVR and cable box.

Locally, you can do that without accessing the cable box.  MC will pause, rewind, etc.

For a recording, that would work on a remote PC.

Since I already have a UIRT (IR Blaster), why would I need a Media Center remote?  I have my cable-box's remote, and I already have a RF remote for my HTPC (and on the other systems I use the easily accessible keyboard generally)..

That might work.  You'd know after 10 minutes of trying.  Our UIRT support is still there but not intuitive to get running now.  There was a thread about this recently.

[glynor]

Locally, you can do that without accessing the cable box.  MC will pause, rewind, etc.

I can't do that locally in HD is the problem.  To watch the HD channels of ESPN, NESN, HBO, and my local channels, they have to come through my digital cable box.  To get the signal out of my digital cable box and into my computer, it has to use the HD-PVR (at least until they really get us some cablecard options for tuners).

I'd say 99% of the time when I'm watching live TV, it is sports or HBO.  I don't really watch anything truly live, but I'll deal with only a 10-15 minute "buffer" for sports programs and HBO series, because I want to watch them right away as they're happening (but still be able to skip commercials and pause for bathroom breaks).  If I'm going to watch soccer or HBO or something, though... I want to watch it in HD.  Why else did I buy all this crap, you know?

Time Warner only has a handful of channels in QAM in the clear (unencrypted HD on the cable), and this is mostly PBS and one or two of the local stations.  Certainly not ESPN or HBO, or any of the other "tiered" HD channels.

[glynor]

Thanks for the answers, though!  I will try to check out the TV features of MC sometime soon using the machine in my basement.  Without that critical placeshifting feature, though, I can't use it as a whole-house solution.

[benn600]

The solution for the placeshifting you are describing is HDHomeRun which places television on your network as network resources with a pool of shared tuners.  I've been using them for several months now and have four available tuners to my systems.  If MC TV gets improved a fair amount more, I could easily see adding a couple more tuners because they would get used a lot more.

I must admit, though, that with network television available, I still want and have asked for the ability to have a central system actually queue up recordings.  This way, if I select to record Simpsons in the theater, the great room HTPC would show a record symbol next to Simpsons so I know it's going to get recorded.  Plus, the server would then do the recording, meaning I could power down the other systems without losing any recordings.

[jmone]

Couple of comments:

* HDHomeRun:  I too have moved to this solution.  It provides "on the network" BDA support for 2 Tuners per HDHomeRun - the result is that every PC on your network thinks it has the two tuners installed on their own box.  It has two ports, one Coax for the Aerial, and one 10BaseT to connect to the network.  Open up the needed ports and as a result, you can tune, record etc etc without any special stuffing around.  Very neat and simple solution which now also supports JR MC in it's configuration.
* TV Guide:  I'm DVB-T based, but (thanks to rpalmer68) I have my "Main" PC create the TV Guide and save it to a network share, then the "other" MC pcs load it as per the schedule function that exits.
* HD-PVA:  I too was thinking of getting one of these to grab content for the STB.....but no idea if MC can see this box directly....
* Placeshifting (external):  No real solution from JR on this BUT Bob is working on the UPnP server which with luck will have a Transcoding engine that will be the first of a few needed building blocks for generic access (note: one (ongoing) issue is that JR still uses a proprietary recoding format for DTV that can not be copied to a standard format).

Thanks
Nathan

[Matt]

* Placeshifting (external):  No real solution from JR on this BUT Bob is working on the UPnP server which with luck will have a Transcoding engine that will be the first of a few needed building blocks for generic access (note: one (ongoing) issue is that JR still uses a proprietary recoding format for DTV that can not be copied to a standard format).

You can play recorded television over library server or a network.  I use this often, and it works well.

[glynor]

I must admit, though, that with network television available, I still want and have asked for the ability to have a central system actually queue up recordings.  This way, if I select to record Simpsons in the theater, the great room HTPC would show a record symbol next to Simpsons so I know it's going to get recorded.  Plus, the server would then do the recording, meaning I could power down the other systems without losing any recordings.

This stuff all works now with both SageTV and BeyondTV.  You can use any tuner hardware you want.  I regularly shut down all of my other systems without losing recordings.  That's another reason it is set up the way it is.  I can power down my entire house, except for one room in the basement (which is on it's own breaker) and all of my recordings, network, and servers keep running.  They're all on a large battery backup system too, so even if the power goes out, I can keep the network and TV recording running for an hour or so (my unsecured wireless network, vonage adapter, and cable modem are on their own beefy UPS so they can keep running for the better part of a day sans-power).

I have ABSOLUTELY ZERO interest in buying some other hardware box to plug into my TV.  The only cable that gets plugged into my TV is ONE HDMI coming out of my video card.  My TV is a computer.  If I wanted set-top boxes, I'd just get a real DVR.  I don't.

More importantly, I only have one TV in the house, and have no interest in EVER getting another.  If I want TVs in my other rooms, I'd just put a cheap little computer in there with a monitor (currently I mostly just use my laptop and the few other systems I have around the house).

[JimH]

I regularly shut down all of my other systems without losing recordings.  That's another reason it is set up the way it is.

MC will wake up to record, then go back to sleep.  If it's recording when you try to shutdown, it finishes and then shuts down.

If you're going to keep on touting other solutions, at least try MC.  Among other things, it actually works on Windows 7.

BeyondTV ...  issues I'm having ...
... will sporadically freeze ...
... the program will often freeze completely for 30-90 seconds ...
... Watching HD video files over my Wireless-N network on my laptop can sometimes stutter .... [/quote

[glynor]

MC will wake up to record, then go back to sleep.  If it's recording when you try to shutdown, it finishes and then shuts down.

The server never is shut down, so that's not really an issue.  My HTPC is shut down (turned off) all the time though.  I am constantly ripping things out of it and rebuilding it and running it through tests.  It is a "play" machine, not a "work" machine.

If you're going to keep on touting other solutions, at least try MC.  Among other things, it actually works on Windows 7.

I wish MC would work for me, but it wouldn't currently.  I was just asking because I was curious and considering switching.

I thought I made it clear before, but the three things I listed first in my initial post were non-negotiable.  "Kinda" working isn't good enough.  I know I can hack something together that kinda works, but I already have something that is almost perfect.  I'm just trying to fix a problem that happens maybe 10% of the time.

[jmone]

You can play recorded television over library server or a network.  I use this often, and it works well.

Sure, but I was talking about Glynor's secondary priority for an External (to his network) Placeshift from non MC clients - sort of what the beta Yaobing TV was getting at awhile ago....

I can actually just use a web browser and go to the webserver built into the BeyondTV server from anywhere in the world and browse all of my pre-recorded content and watch shows through a silverlight player component that it uses.

[glynor]

If you're going to keep on touting other solutions, at least try MC.  Among other things, it actually works on Windows 7.

I will say this... I do love MC, Jim.  (You know that.)  That's why I was really hoping to move to it for literally ALL of my media needs (rather than just 75% or so like I use it currently).  And, yes, it does actually work properly on Windows 7 x64.

It just can't do true live placeshifting, which is a feature I happen to need with my setup.  That's no knock on MC, it is just something not currently supported.  That's not a huge surprise, considering the price I paid for other systems vs. the price for MC.  It is what it is.  I just hoped it had advanced a little further than I thought.

I wouldn't strongly "tout" any other solution to other people, unless they need exactly what I have set up in my house.  There are problems with this setup too!

ADDENDUM: I've never really been satisfied with BeyondTV.  It works, and generally works well (the three issues I listed above are relatively rare, except for issue #2, which is new and almost certainly Windows 7 x64 related).  However, it is super-expensive, not updated often, and not very flexible at all.  There are TONS of things I can't do with it that annoy me on a daily basis.  SageTV always looked better in these ways, but is ugly and old-looking, clunky to set up, and touchy from everything I've read.  That's why I've stuck with what I have.  It is inflexible, but reliable and looks/feels like a real set-top-box.  The best of all worlds, for me, would be to use only MC because it satisfies both requirements and more.  MC is pretty and delivers a set-top-box equivalent experience, and it is extremely powerful and flexible.  Sometimes it can be a little "fiddly" to get set up, but once it is set up, it is NOT fiddly to use, which is much more important for me.

[JimH]

It just can't do true live placeshifting

If that ends up being all you're missing, we'd consider adding it.

You might be able to watch a recording that has just begun as a workaround.  I've never tried it.

[glynor]

I do intend to check it out, and I'll let you know.

One other thing I thought I'd mention...

Another way I've been considering going is to just use MC for all of my recorded media playback, and just use BeyondTV on the server for recording and use the Link program on the rare occasion when I actually need live playback.

This would work VERY well already, actually... Except for ONE thing.  MC won't auto-tag my recordings as they're made.  It already imports them all for me, but in order to be able to browse them like a TiVO from in Theater View, I have to go through and manually tag all of the files (with series and episode names, synopsis, and other details).  BTV encodes all of this information into either the filename or sidecar XML files when it finishes the recordings.

Unfortunately, I can't tell MC to automatically grab these details when it Auto-Imports the T:\recordings\ folder.  So all of those recordings just get dumped into my "untagged/new" View in MC.

If MC could automatically apply a "Fill Properties from Filename" type of scan when it does Auto-Import (which would have to be able to be customized on a per-folder basis in the Import options), AND pull data from the XML sidecar files, then I could just use MC for ALL viewing and playback, except for live TV.

[benn600]

I totally want this too and asked for the same thing a few months back.  My setup is similar to yours, glynor.  I have a big server.  However, we definitely don't have ONE television.  With my new round of HTPC systems, I can turn them on/off all from an IR remote.  So we have begun shutting them down to decrease power usage.

If any client wants to record a show, it would queue it up with the server.  Done!  I don't like using sleep, EVER.  It just never works that well.  I'm with you on this one.

I still think MC needs a dedicated server and dedicated client application where the clients are communicating back and forth so as new media gets added, all clients are immediately updated, rather than relying on auto-import which also requires each system to be manually set up locally.   You could create a Media Center server application that would be licensed separately and cost more.

[glynor]

However, we definitely don't have ONE television.  With my new round of HTPC systems, I can turn them on/off all from an IR remote.  So we have begun shutting them down to decrease power usage.

Oh, I have more than one Home Theater capable computer (the "office" machine, for example, has a nice 24" 1920x1200 monitor).  I just only have one true "TV" in the house, and that's only because that's the only room in the house where it would be appropriate to have a screen larger than 30" or so.  Anything smaller than that, I'd just get a monitor.

[raym]

Except for ONE thing.  MC won't auto-tag my recordings as they're made. 

Glynor, I too run a TV server using a FREE product called TV Scheduler Pro (http://sourceforge.net/apps/mediawiki/tvschedulerpro/index.php?title=Main_Page). It provides a feature which generates XML sidecars for your recordings. These are essentially XML files containing metadata from xmltv listings. It generates these automatically when a recording is in progress. Does BeyondTV provide something similar? Reason being, with this tool, I can define a default "post-capture task" which converts the file into a JRiver compatible video sidecar (using a simple vbs script) and copies both this and the capture to my MC video watch folder on completion. Within a few seconds of this... hey presto!... each PC in my house has every completed recording imported and FULLY TAGGED, ready to watch and all with no manual intervention required.

Cheers.
 

[glynor]

Does BeyondTV provide something similar? Reason being, with this tool, I can define a default "post-capture task" which converts the file into a JRiver compatible video sidecar (using a simple vbs script) and copies both this and the capture to my MC video watch folder on completion.

So... I had to actually go look at the XML files it generates to see what data they contained.  I had assumed they had some of the "tags" in them, but never really looked so I wasn't sure.

We'll, I looked and the news isn't good.  The XML sidecar files contain ONLY the "chaptering" info that is used to allow you to skip commercials.  BTV runs a version of a ComSkip-like application on the recordings to detect commercials in the stream via timecode breaks (it is better than ComSkip only in that it is supported to work with the H264 TS files that come off of the HD-PVR application, which is currently only in Beta in ComSkip).  The only "tag" info that I can extract out of these files is encoded in the filename.  However, that info is reliably coded in the filename, and I COULD build an expression in MC in the Fill Properties tool that properly parses them, I just can't have it happen automatically.

Still, I'm curious about your VBS script!  As mentioned before, I don't know if I'm going to stick with BeyondTV.  My weekend investigations make it look more and more likely that I'll be switching over to SageTV or some other alternative, and Sage is a LOT more configurable, and I'm hopeful that I'll be able to get it to generate XML sidecars that will actually contain the metadata that I care about.  Could you post your VBS Script that you use for this purpose so I can take a peek at it?  I've done plenty of simple VBS scripting and some basic programming, but I've never mucked about with XML data sources.  I'm sure it isn't too difficult, but having an example that does basically exactly what I want could be very useful.

[raym]

Oh yeah, I wish MC would support comskip edl files. It's been requested here by several of us over the years. Gonna create a new reminder thread ;-) ... Anyhoo, sending you a PM with some details on the process I use...

Cheers.

[gappie]

The only "tag" info that I can extract out of these files is encoded in the filename.  However, that info is reliably coded in the filename, and I COULD build an expression in MC in the Fill Properties tool that properly parses them, I just can't have it happen automatically.

it might be that at one time autotagging will be included, but you could use the expressions not to fill the properties, but to make a sensible view based on the file names. i tried to make one and wrote it down in this hot-headed thread. http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=54768.msg372939#msg372939

 
gab

[glynor]

Actually... I found a way just last night to extract the BeyondTV metadata into sidecar XML files.  There is a separate command-line driven application that you can feed a file and it'll spit out the XML sidecar file.  The application is even open source, so I might be able to just modify it to spit out JRiver compatible sidecar files, which would be sweet.

Ideally, I'd be able to trigger it to auto-run whenever a show finishes recording on BeyondTV, but that doesn't look possible.  Again, though, I still need to check out SageTV.

[imugli]

I'd just like to add my request for full MythTv/SageTV/BeyondTV server / client functionality as well.

It's not a deal breaker for me (I still use MC for TV) but this kind of functionality would be great, esp the ability to schedule recordings from clients (and have them reflected on all clients) and stream live TV from a central "TunerBank" server as these programs do. 

[lise]

glynor, have you made the jump to sage? Were you able to cook something up re the sidecar files?

I've been considering going the MC route as well and ditching Beyond TV (although in my case, Beyond TV still works fine) just to have the one app running on my HTPC. But everytime I spend some time trying to get it working, I give up because I can't find info or just can't get it to work.

In the meatime I've imported all my tv shows in MC and sure would be interested in those sidecars if you were able to get something going from Beyond TV.

[hit_ny]

A side question to glynor, have you wired your house with ethernet or is it all wireless ?

[rpalmer68]

glynor, have you made the jump to sage? Were you able to cook something up re the sidecar files?

I've been considering going the MC route as well and ditching Beyond TV (although in my case, Beyond TV still works fine) just to have the one app running on my HTPC. But everytime I spend some time trying to get it working, I give up because I can't find info or just can't get it to work.

In the meatime I've imported all my tv shows in MC and sure would be interested in those sidecars if you were able to get something going from Beyond TV.

Does BeyondTV output an XML file with the required meta data in it when it does a recording?   And can you trigger an application to run when the recording finishes?

If so I have a script that may work if glynor didn't end up doing it. 

Richard

[lise]

Hi Richard,

Yes, Beyond TV updates a single xml with all of the televised recordings in the one file.
As for whether or not I can get it to trigger an app when it's done, I'm not sure. Beyond TV has the ability to automatically showsqueeze (convert to a smaller format) when a recording is done if one wants, so obviously something can be triggered; whether that can be an external script or program I'm not sure. I'll check some settings and get back to you.