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[Matt]

jmone, after being made fun of and publicly shamed, I thought maybe it was time to break down and upgrade my theater receiver.

I need you to provide some sort of dollar-level to ridicule-level chart so that I can avoid future embarrassment.  My street-cred needs mending.

The feature "minimizes embarrassment" isn't listed on any of the manufacturers' websites.

So is 7.2 channels enough, or do I need 11.2?  From what I can gather, Sony is embarrassing.  What would be the least embarrassing brand?  Will whatever I choose end up being embarrassing in a month when 3D-enabled HDMI 1.4 is available?

Thanks for any help.

[glynor]

I'm interested as well.   

(Seriously, I need a new amp.  I only need 5.1 though, because that's what I have for speakers, and my speakers are nice.)

[jmone]

  - Matt!  Welcome aboard to the never ending upgrade cycle!  You may find it hard to believe but, I'm very much a middle of the road "value for money"  / "80/20" scenario and HATE any ridiculous claims, so just don't let any of the following items show up at your place (and apologies for anyone who already as purchased them):
- Bose Lifestyle /Cubes (junk but great marketing!)
- Sony (just overpriced for what you get)
- Horn loaded speakers (great for Cinema's but probably not the best in a house)
- Special esoteric speaker, interconnect cables (the std ones are just fine - the electrons can not tell the difference)
- Special esoteric material from outerspace for tweeter construction
- Any receiver claiming mega watts per channel

So - pending what you have (or don't) here is how I would break down an initial HT setup....and then select a receiver to fit in as it is the least important bit (you can opt up and blow real $$'s but apart from the bragging rights I'm note sure most can notice a difference after a certain point....):
1) Big Screen TV US$3K: As big as you can get else you just don't see the benefit of HD.  eg 65inch Pana Plasma US$2,700 (unfortunately Pio no longer sells the Kuro but if you can get a 60" it's all the go).  I'd avoid projection unless you are going a dedicated HT Room with quality light control.  
2) Quality Speakers US$3-4K:  No point of skimping here if you want to hear HD, and sorry the wife may not like it but the physics behind Air Pumps (speakers) means they are going to be full sized - no ifs or buts, you can not get full spectum sound from cubes.  The best advice I got was to take some Audio and Video that I was very familiar with to a real HiFi store and spend an hour or so doing A/B tests to see what you like.  After lots of research I ended up importing a 5.1 setup from www.axiomaudio.com and have been very pleased not only with the speakers but also with the professionalism and recommendations in what works in the space you are trying to fill (you send them a drawing of your room(s) and they will talk you through what will work).  Depending on you room layout a 5.1 / 6.1 / 7.1 system may be best (most Blu-rays are still 5.1 audio).  Pending your room layout a there could be an argument for a second sub (eg 5.2 / 6.2 / 7.2)
3) Source US$300:  You are going to need to feed you setup with HD material so I guess that will be a HTPC for you with an ATI5XXX graphics card with HDMI....and lots of patience trying to get it to all work....or buy a PS3!
4) Receiver US$1.5K:  I hate to say it but, I'm pretty unfazed here and due to all the changes with CODECS, HDMI Vers etc this is an area that tends to see allot of changes if you want to chase the next big thing (as you have pointed out - BDA have released their 3D spec....).  There is no need to spend big $$ as the key bit is that it needs to have enough clean / unclipped / undistorted amplification power to drive the speakers you have (or are getting) to fill you room at correct sound pressure levels.  All current receivers from the big players will support more speaker formats than you need and should have heaps of HDMI input (eg Yamaha RX-V2065 is a 7.2 receiver).  If you are trying to fill a large room with high sound pressure levels you can add US$4-5K for a 7.1 channel power amp, and you then use your receiver as a preamp.

If you are thinking about 3d - then the electronics is one you may want to hold off on as there are a couple of different approaches the MFR are taking and until commercial units hit the streets there is no saying how good or bad they will be at this stage.  Of course you could hold off forever and it has been a very very long time since your last upgrade!

Thanks
Nathan

PS - Happy to help making fun of you any time but I'd blame Jim for the "public" shaming - imagine moving that thread to the public forum!

[jmone]

Also forgot to mention, to minimuse the ridicule level also avoid any of the following "features" on you Receiver:
- Gold Trim
- Bright blue lights
- anything with the word Karaoke emblazoned on the front
- any "odd" form factor

....best stick with black (or silver if you are that old), subduded LED's small logos, and the less visible knobs the better....Think of the receiver as a bit like perfume for a woman, it's all about understated elegance

+++++ if you want bragging rights you need to talk up the weight of the receiver - along the lines of, "I had to get a new reinforced entertainment cabinet to hold by new receiver"
+++++ Get an analogue sound pressure meter from Tandy and either the "Avia" and "Digital Video Essentials" calibration disc - follow directions and discuss over dinner...do NOT under any circumstances say you used the included little calibration microphone that comes with the receivers!  Good topic of conversation at dinner is then about sub wooffer placement.

[JimH]

jmone,
Great write-up.  Thanks!  I will move it, as you suggest. 

And, I imagine Matt is on the floor, breathing hard at the prices.  So many zeros...  You have no idea what a firm grasp he has on his wallet.  Except for anything gaming related, so maybe that will be the rationale that gets the job done.

[cncb]

And, I imagine Matt is on the floor, breathing hard at the prices.  So many zeros...  You have no idea what a firm grasp he has on his wallet.  Except for anything gaming related, so maybe that will be the rationale that gets the job done.

There's no need to spend so much on an AVR (I look at jmone's numbers as a "maximum"  ).  Look at the cheap Onkyo and Denon models with Audyssey EQ, HDMI switching, and many other features for less than $500.

While I appreciate HDMI as a "one connector" solution it boggles my mind that a connector can have version numbers.  Talk about confusion for the average consumer.  And now we will have to get all new equipment and buy yet another version of our movies to get 3D!!  Ugh!

[newsposter]

Two Words

Onkyo Receivers

[DarkPenguin]

Onkyo used to make over priced junk.  (Although they may have improved.  They used to make some nice stuff way back when.)  I've always liked Marantz.

[jmone]

Be careful at the $500 Receiver end of the market - they are not all "junk" but
1) you do get what you pay for especially in the way of amplification....You need to spec your receiver (and speaker / TV for that matter) to cater for the SIZE of the room.  Low powered equipment is fine in a Dorm Room, but you will not fill a big space with CLEAN power unless you get something decent.  Good quality amplification allows you to develop sound pressure levels similar to what you get in a concert / movies etc yet they sound great to the ear.  When pushing a cheap / nasty receiver advertising lost of power you end up with a high level of distortion the result of which "sounds "loud/irritating" and you will (or will be asked) to turn it down.   To avoid future embarrassment your gear is going to have to fill your space with quality sound at good pressure levels regardless of costs (likewise - no need to try to cram a high power system into your dorm room, just a wast of $$$....but could be impressive....).  As an example of matching Receiver / Speakers / Space, my Yami V2800 will shut down if I try driving the Axiom at high sound pressure levels in a large space (such as doors open, outside party, New Years Eve Stuff) - the Yami can just not deliver enough dynamic current to the Speakers (which have plenty of headroom).  
2) You absolutely want HDMI V1.3 and Video UpConversion from Analoge to HDMI (I'm less "excited" by upscaling as your TV does this anyway - it's just an argument then on who's is "best").  Note: while most devices "play nice" with each other and incompatibility issues seem to have died off, get a return g'tee in case they don't - it's not worth the hassle trying to get hdmi devices that don't like taking to each other to work
   a) Q. What is the difference between HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.3a, or 1.3b?

For consumers, there is no difference between HDMI version 1.3 and 1.3a or 1.3b. These minor revisions to the specification typically relate to manufacturing or testing issues and do not impact features or functionality. In addition, HDMI Licensing, LLC is actively working with manufacturers to reduce confusion for consumers by de-emphasizing version numbers and focusing instead on product features and functionality.

For Adopters, the latest HDMI Specification is v1.3a and the latest HDMI Compliance Test Specification (CTS) is 1.3c.
   b) V1.4 should start appearing next year (watch for CES announcements) but all your gear needs to be all 1.4 if you want to take advantage of these "features" - more at http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/hdmi_1_4_faq.aspx#2
3) Be careful of "HDMI Switching", some low end models advertise this but they don't process the Audio (or Video) - the act like a dumb switch, allowing you to switch the output between a couple of inputs - absolutely useless IMHO - you want your receiver to actually process and output your sound!

Denon, Marantz and Onkyo receivers are also fine brands.  If you want a sub US$1K device then the Yamaha RX-V1065 is the latest in this price range with last years Yamaha RX-V863 (a good model) now down to around $500 ( http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v863 ).  This new model = old model at 50% happens every year.  So if you are after a $500 recommendation, I'd buy a run out "last year" model from Yami, Denon, Onkyo, Marantz (ps the Sony product is fine but it's more lifestyle brand and like Apple, Honda tends to gets a higher margin for lower features) - the "features" have not changed for a while so you should get HDMI1.3 and the latest HD Audio Decoding.  I've tried staying away from asking (in case of additional equipment embarrassment) but to help pick what is your:
- Room Dimensions (including height)
- Speakers you plan to use


Thanks
Nathan.

[Matt]

jmone, I think you might have some sticking number keys on your keyboard.  It makes it hard to read the recommendations.

And two posts recommend Onkyo, but another hints that it might still be embarrassing.

I looked around a bit more and read good things about the Denon 1910, Onkyo TX-SR707, and Yamaha RX-V765, all of which are around $400-500 depending on the sale.

Really even these seem like overkill.  I don't need video processing -- my computer and projector are the video processors.  I don't need earth shattering power -- just clean comfortable sound for movies and television.  I don't even really need more than 5.1 channels since it'd mean rewiring the theater to add the speakers.

And none of these amps are expensive enough to avoid having jmone grill me

Thanks for any advice.

[jmone]

I looked around a bit more and read good things about the Denon 1910, Onkyo TX-SR707, and Yamaha RX-V765, all of which are around $400-500 depending on the sale.

  Good price on the V765, they are over US$1K here in Australia

I don't need video processing -- my computer and projector are the video processors. 

  I agree, I don't use the UpScaler in my Receiver (my TV / HTPC does that) but I DO use the UpConverter so that all sources (such as my Component STB) are converted to HDMI for transmition to the TV - saving another set of cables and having to switch the "source" on the TV as well as the receiver.  The basic idea is the receiver takes in all the source, and outputs to the TV has if it was a single "Monitor".

I don't need earth shattering power -- just clean comfortable sound for movies and television.  I don't even really need more than 5.1 channels since it'd mean rewiring the theater to add the speakers.

  I agree, just enough power to cleaning drive your speakers to the sound pressure you want in the room you have (and 5.1 is probably all you need in a modest room)

And none of these amps are expensive enough to avoid having jmone grill me

  I'll only grill you when you hook it all up with Composite or pay mega $ for some special cable!  The rest of your logic sounds fine to me.

Nathan

[Matt]

I'll only grill you when you hook it all up with Composite or pay mega $ for some special cable!  The rest of your logic sounds fine to me.

Years ago after buying a headphone amp, I got put on a this-idiot-will-buy-anything mailing list for stereo equipment.  I think you know you spent too much on something when they start sending you catalogs filled with ten thousand dollar speaker wires.

There are 3m stereo cables that cost more than a new car.  It's pretty entertaining to read the marketing blurbs that justify the cost, because really, what can you possibly say?

[jmone]

* $21K for 3m of Audioquest's Everest “Counter Spiralling Geometry” and “Spread Spectrum Technology" is cheap! - http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/11/most-expensive-speaker-cable-world-audioquest-audiophile/ makes the
* 1K per m of HDMI cable look cheap http://www.hardwaresphere.com/2009/12/10/wireworld-platinum-starlight-hdmi-cable-world-most-expensive-hdmi-cable/  This one is going to cost twice your new receiver.

but it does not stop there - how about
* a CD Lathe to "true up" you CD's http://www.noiseaddicts.com/2008/10/audiophile-stupidity-cd-lathe-improves-sound-quality/
* Ultra Tweeters in the Microwave Frequency range http://6moons.com/audioreviews/jsmr/ultra.html

Anyway - found the perfect amp for you Matt:
* $4K for an Ipod Dock http://www.rothaudio.co.uk/cgi-bin/roth_coranto/viewnews.cgi?id=EElyyVpllVgeDWfKYi&tmpl=view_audio_news - wow imagine hearing all those MP3 compression artifacts lovingly recreated by a classic tube amp.....mmmm if I get three I could create a 5.1 system and pair them up with some Cube speakers....Blisss

People must buy this stuff as there is no shortage of these products on the market....

[)p(]

Really even these seem like overkill.  I don't need video processing -- my computer and projector are the video processors.  I don't need earth shattering power -- just clean comfortable sound for movies and television.  I don't even really need more than 5.1 channels since it'd mean rewiring the theater to add the speakers.

Indeed...if your htpc is your only source and you feed it from the analog audio outputs from it, the receiver just a glorified multichannel amp
Actually because that is the case in our theater we just use an older Marantz receiver...

peter

[glynor]

 I agree, I don't use the UpScaler in my Receiver (my TV / HTPC does that) but I DO use the UpConverter so that all sources (such as my Component STB) are converted to HDMI for transmition to the TV - saving another set of cables and having to switch the "source" on the TV as well as the receiver.  The basic idea is the receiver takes in all the source, and outputs to the TV has if it was a single "Monitor".

Yeah... This assumes you HAVE other sources.  The ONLY source I hook up to my TV is my computer.  Period.  Everything else goes into the computer, not to the TV directly.  The only button I need on my TV is the On/Off button.  It always stays on HDMI 1.  I certainly don't need upscaling or any of that.  I don't even want/need the receiver to HANDLE video at all.  I just want a good, clean amp (and it doesn't need to be too powerful, my house is small) with a nice DAC that can handle 5.1 audio and the fancier Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA formats, and passthrough the HDMI video so that I don't have to use a splitter.

Even if I eventually get a second HDMI source device (like an Xbox 360 or PS3), I'd probably wire it in using a Blackmagic Design Intensity card, so even that would go through the PC.

It is frustrating that all of the receivers have all of these video features that I don't need at all, and cost so much.  The lower-end machines might seem cheap to you, but I can build a whole PC for those prices, and the CPU in a PC is an order-of-magnitude more powerful than the crap they put in those receivers.

[cncb]

I wouldn't sell the advanced audio features so short and you can turn off the video processing in most of these AVRs.  Audyssey EQ is quite impressive along with Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume which make it sound good even when you can't really crank it (as those of us with kids often can't).  You can get these features in even the "lower-end" Denon and Onkyo models so even if you don't use the video processing I think it is worth it.

[WinoOutWest]

It is frustrating that all of the receivers have all of these video features that I don't need at all, and cost so much.  The lower-end machines might seem cheap to you, but I can build a whole PC for those prices, and the CPU in a PC is an order-of-magnitude more powerful than the crap they put in those receivers.

Have you considered just a clean 5 channel power amp + a high quality sound card with Analog outs?  Cards like the Asus Xonar cards can do all the fancy processing if you want it and they sound amazing in analog through a high quality power amp.  This is pretty much my setup - everything goes through the HTPC.  Analog out from the Xonar to my Anthem MCA5 power amp which is strictly a power amp.  One button on it:  On/Off.  Lots of good clean power, which just never goes out of style.  Bought my amp used and its been running for 8 years without a hiccup.  I have upgraded my sound card a few times over that period which is part of the beauty of this setup.

[jmone]

It is frustrating that all of the receivers have all of these video features that I don't need at all, and cost so much.  The lower-end machines might seem cheap to you, but I can build a whole PC for those prices, and the CPU in a PC is an order-of-magnitude more powerful than the crap they put in those receivers.

While I see your argument (as mentioned I turn off Video processing in both my STB and Receiver preferring to let the HTPC and TV do it's thing) please don't skimp on the Audio section, it will just end up underwhelming.  In your case, just buy a quality second hand receiver and as suggested use the Analog ports for Audio.  Better still buy a more recent model, such as my V2700 which can be had for under US$500 as it does not decode the HD Audio formats - you do that in your PC and pass as MPCM over HDMI.  Both options will save you heaps - you will get a much better amp section for your $ than a new $500 box (which is the real requirement in a receiver).

You have to live and be happy with your solution but remember Matt is trying to restore his Audio Mojo!....I imagine its a bit like (as a non gamer) claiming the Crysis looks good on my US$50 HD4550 as who needs all that fancy stuff, high resolutions and frame rates, as the "modest" levels are just fine.....

[Daydream]

You guys briefly mentioned it, so I'm curious, in the comments that followed, did you dismiss completely the upcoming 3D thingie? Because otherwise is the worst moment to buy anything - receivers, TVs, cables, etc.

And as closer to the topic on hand, I have an Onkyo TX-SR606 (I'm an Onkyo fan). Having upgraded from an older Onkyo, I agree that the Audyssey EQ featured improved the sound a lot. The device also acts as an HDMI repeater pretty successfully, with my HTPC, TIVO & Blu-ray player all hooked up to it. 7.1, lossless audio, done. I don't understand to pay more than $400 for a receiver because I can't enjoy the difference. I would need to buy new speakers, a house, and pay the neighbors to not be around.

One small note: with all the recent support for lossless audio on the ATI 5xxx series and all that, my Onkyo and all other Onkyo's that I've read about worked straight up, without custom EDID tricks/monitor drivers and what not. It's a small thing but it may be frustrating.

[glynor]

While I see your argument (as mentioned I turn off Video processing in both my STB and Receiver preferring to let the HTPC and TV do it's thing) please don't skimp on the Audio section, it will just end up underwhelming.  In your case, just buy a quality second hand receiver and as suggested use the Analog ports for Audio.  Better still buy a more recent model, such as my V2700 which can be had for under US$500 as it does not decode the HD Audio formats - you do that in your PC and pass as MPCM over HDMI.  Both options will save you heaps - you will get a much better amp section for your $ than a new $500 box (which is the real requirement in a receiver).

Hmmm....

A few things:

1. I DO have a Radeon 5850 and was hoping to eventually use the bitstreaming support built into the card.  I'm really not picky though.  I bought it for the gaming support, not the audio.

2. I would prefer to stop using the DAC in my computer.  That's the whole point of getting a new receiver/amp.  If I decode on the system, would it be using the on-board DAC or would it be doing it all in software?  I don't currently have a 3rd party soundcard for my HTPC.  That's the idea, I'd like to get away from using the onboard Realtek's DAC because it is crap.

3. I need to have it handle the computer's system audio too, including 5.1 audio in games and whatnot (so not just for movies where the audio is encoded in the file's stream).  I don't want to ever change inputs/outputs on my computer, receiver, or anything.  The remotes for EVERYTHING will be put in a box in the basement and the receiver will simply be left on a single input.  The goal is to drive the ENTIRE system with only a mouse.  I have a USB-UIRT, but right now it only is used to turn the TV on and off.  I'd probably add in a command to toggle the receiver on and off with it.

4. My living room is "dorm-room" sized.  My TV is around 10 feet from the couch (I'm too lazy to measure, but it isn't a huge distance).  Not a large space at all, so I'm really not worried about filling the room with sound at all.

Right now, to achieve these goals, I need to use the onboard DAC in my computer (which is a POS) and output everything via the 5.1 channel analog outputs into my amp (I have no receiver of any kind right now, just a 5.1 power amp that has recently developed a bad hum).  Sure, I could buy a new soundcard and just get a new power amp, but the DAC is still in the electrically noisy computer box that way, and most of the sound cards are crap anyway.

With that stuff in mind... Do you have a suggestion of any kind?  My price limit is $500 or so.  I have a decent set of Klipsch 5.1 speakers.  Nothing fancy and kinda old, but nothing horrible either.

[boydn]

Even though nobody asked I'll throw in my 3 cents.
Upstairs I've got a Denon 4802 with a Paradigm studio series 5.1 set.  A little dated now but, nothing to sneeze at.
I just built a system for the basement and went with a Marantz 8002 and SVS Enhanced Audiophile Package with a PC12 Plus sub.
The new system performs every bit as good as the MUCH more expensive system upstairs.
I would highly recomend Marantz and SVS.  Websites below.  I would buy whatever receiver from accessories4less, They sell Marantz and Onkyo.  They currently have the 8002 which has HDMI and all the cool new BD audio decoders for 1/2 MSRP.  Makes for a VERY nice 5.1 system for about 3k.

http://www.svsound.com/products-sub.cfm

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/category/HomeAudio/Home-Audio/1.html

[jmone]

You guys briefly mentioned it, so I'm curious, in the comments that followed, did you dismiss completely the upcoming 3D thingie? Because otherwise is the worst moment to buy anything - receivers, TVs, cables, etc.

  If you were about to spend 10K on a new setup and 3d was of interest then I'd wait to see what happens in '10.  If you are in the market for a $500 Receiver I'd just buy one now....

And as closer to the topic on hand, I have an Onkyo TX-SR606 (I'm an Onkyo fan). Having upgraded from an older Onkyo, I agree that the Audyssey EQ featured improved the sound a lot. The device also acts as an HDMI repeater pretty successfully, with my HTPC, TIVO & Blu-ray player all hooked up to it. 7.1, lossless audio, done. I don't understand to pay more than $400 for a receiver because I can't enjoy the difference. I would need to buy new speakers, a house, and pay the neighbors to not be around.

    as long as it works for you!

One small note: with all the recent support for lossless audio on the ATI 5xxx series and all that, my Onkyo and all other Onkyo's that I've read about worked straight up, without custom EDID tricks/monitor drivers and what not. It's a small thing but it may be frustrating.

  Good point, and one that I've forgoten as I've got a DVI Detective Plus between my HTPC and the Reciver to hold the EDID.  I purchased it in the Intel G33 days and I've no idea if there are still issues with EDID dropping on the modern cards (FYI - EDID is information transmitted from the TV & Receiver advertsing what Video / Audio formats it supports - some graphics cards used to freak out when you turned off the TV or Receiver and would reset to a default of something like 800x600 + 2ch Stereo.  Items like the DVI Detective Plus would contine to advertise the EDID info but it adds another $100.....)

[jmone]

Right now, to achieve these goals, I need to use the onboard DAC in my computer (which is a POS) and output everything via the 5.1 channel analog outputs into my amp (I have no receiver of any kind right now, just a 5.1 power amp that has recently developed a bad hum).  Sure, I could buy a new soundcard and just get a new power amp, but the DAC is still in the electrically noisy computer box that way, and most of the sound cards are crap anyway.

With that stuff in mind... Do you have a suggestion of any kind?  My price limit is $500 or so.  I have a decent set of Klipsch 5.1 speakers.  Nothing fancy and kinda old, but nothing horrible either.

Good Point - the receivers DAC will be much better than most in a PC's audio card.  Ignoring Bitsteaming for a second, if you select say 5.1 as your speaker format in Windows and HDMI you will output Multi Channel PCM over HDMI....your SW will decode all the various sound formats / codecs to PCM and punch them over HDMI to your Receiver that will use its DAC to then convert to analog and amplify for the speakers.  To minimise the fuss Windows can make to this process I'd recommend WASAPI.  For $500 you may get a run out / 2nd hand Yami V2700 by now (it would be 1/3rd of what it was 18mths ago), as it does not support decoding HD codecs but it has HDMI and supports 1080p (I got a free upgrade from the V2600 as it only did 1080i) and has a much better amp section.  Some liked the Denon 3808 but read many had EDID issues with it.  If you want new, then something like the Yami V765 is where you will be at.  A word of caution about the one input / output thing, I'm not a gamer but I don't think any of the AV products handle non-DTV specs - so you may be stuck with a max of 1920x1080/60hz....

[glynor]

Thanks so much for the advice.  I'll look into it.  I think I'll also look for what Onkyo has kicking about in that range.  However...

A word of caution about the one input / output thing, I'm not a gamer but I don't think any of the AV products handle non-DTV specs - so you may be stuck with a max of 1920x1080/60hz....

What did you mean by this?  My monitor for this whole thing is a HDTV (and it is a couple of years old so it isn't even a 120hz one).  I can't do any higher than 1080p @ 60Hz on it.  Is all you meant that if I'm pushing this into a 30" monitor or something else with a very high native resolution that I'd be limited to 1080p resolution?  That's fine for the HTPC.

EDIT:  I'm just wondering... For my setup, what would be wrong with something like the Onkyo TX-SR607?  You can get it on Amazon for under $400, and it really looks pretty fantastic for my needs.

[JimH]

glynor,
I added the amazon link to your post.  And in the interest of full disclosure, if anyone clicks on it and later buys something at Amazon, JRiver will get several per cent of the sale.

[glynor]

glynor,
I added the amazon link to your post.  And in the interest of full disclosure, if anyone clicks on it and later buys something at Amazon, JRiver will get several per cent of the sale.

Cool.  Thanks.

[jmone]

What did you mean by this?  My monitor for this whole thing is a HDTV (and it is a couple of years old so it isn't even a 120hz one).  I can't do any higher than 1080p @ 60Hz on it.  Is all you meant that if I'm pushing this into a 30" monitor or something else with a very high native resolution that I'd be limited to 1080p resolution?  That's fine for the HTPC.

It had occurred to me that you may be using a PC Monitor over a TV.....few (& I'm not sure if any) AV based equipment like PC based Video Specs...

EDIT:  I'm just wondering... For my setup, what would be wrong with something like the Onkyo TX-SR607?  You can get it on Amazon for under $400, and it really looks pretty fantastic for my needs.

- While I'm not familiar with the unit at all there is a good thread at AVS on it - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1136584 - it's worth reading to see if there are any oddities that would annoy!

[WinoOutWest]

A lot of receiver for under $500. 

not a Pioneer owner but their Elite series seems to be respected.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/538576535/pioneer-vsx-9040txh

$499 shipped.

[jmone]

So Matt - what did you get?

[Matt]

So Matt - what did you get?

I'm still looking.

A guy in town has a Denon 1610 for $250, but I think that'd still be classified as embarrassing.

I looked at some Pioneer Elites, but Pioneer is dodgy about honoring the warranty if you buy online.

A lot of amps bench test way below their ratings (even well reviewed ones like the Pioneer 1019 or Onkyo 807), so it's tough to know the quality of the actual amplifier.

[DarkPenguin]

Really?  A pioneer?

[glynor]

Really?  A pioneer?

The Pioneer Elite is supposedly well-respected.  I'm still somewhat skeptical.  I suspect a lot of those "recommendations" are based more on feature check-lists than on quality of output (like the CNet reviews).  However, I just got a Pioneer CD deck (with dual USB inputs) for my car, and it is really pretty fantastic, once you turn off all of the ugly crap on the display.

[Matt]

I'm leaning towards getting a block amplifier and using a computer with Media Center as the preamplifier.  We'd need to add a few preamplifier-like features to the program like channel / speaker correction, volume protection, etc.

Here's a related thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55607.msg378131#msg378131

[jmone]

My street-cred needs mending.

Then this is not going to help....

I'm leaning towards getting a block amplifier and using a computer with Media Center as the preamplifier.  I'll post some pics as the build progress, I've just got the basic going and it's looking pretty good so far....

You will next be convinced that building your own Sub is a good thing   and at which point your street-cred will really be shot...

[DarkPenguin]

I'm leaning towards getting a block amplifier and using a computer with Media Center as the preamplifier.  We'd need to add a few preamplifier-like features to the program like channel / speaker correction, volume protection, etc.

Here's a related thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=55607.msg378131#msg378131

Some years ago Audio Perfection had some lovely mono block amplifiers.  Just pretty as can be.  Huge, open (keep the dog and kids away unless you want them to arc like squirrels on a power line) and expensive.  Very nice.

Mike Johnston at the Online Photographer recommends the Bob Latino replica Dynaco Stereo 70 amp kits.  (Scroll down a bit on this page ... http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2009/10/plugs.html )

[hit_ny]

jmone, after being made fun of and publicly shamed, I thought maybe it was time to break down and upgrade my theater receiver.

I need you to provide some sort of dollar-level to ridicule-level chart so that I can avoid future embarrassment.  My street-cred needs mending.

Dunno Matt, for me the question has always boiled down to two components -- content or equipment. Choose one. It's not affordable to have both so which matters more.

To avoid 'embarrasment' must the cost of one's equpiment necessarily outweigh the cost of content or the other way around ?

Is the aim about how capable  & clean sounding the equipment is or how well read, one is

[HiFiTubes]

Dunno Matt, for me the question has always boiled down to two components -- content or equipment. Choose one. It's not affordable to have both so which matters more.

To avoid 'embarrasment' must the cost of one's equpiment necessarily outweigh the cost of content or the other way around ?

Is the aim about how capable  & clean sounding the equipment is or how well read, one is

If anyone is into some big home theater speakers (floorstanders), Klipsch RF7s are really nice. I used to run a pair on 13watt Single-Ended Triode monoblocks and they were really nice for quality stereo but they are great home theater speakers too.

I don't know jack about home theater receivers though. My new amp should be here in a month. 3.5 watts per channel! running on 6V6 tubes.

good luck!
hifi

[jmone]

Hi Matt - did you end up settling on a config?

[Matt]

Hi Matt - did you end up settling on a config?

I ended up getting a dedicated amplifier (Emotiva UPA-7) and I'm using Media Center for all processing.  I'm really happy with the solution.

I want to write a little article on this at some point, because I think it would demonstrate some of the work we've been doing.

Now I just need to build a subwoofer, and you can make fun of me for totally different reasons

[jmone]

I ended up getting a dedicated amplifier (Emotiva UPA-7) and I'm using Media Center for all processing.  I'm really happy with the solution.

Good looking amp and I see you spent some money - I trust you are driving some decent speakers.  Also, Jim will be disappointed in your flamboyant largess!

I want to write a little article on this at some point, because I think it would demonstrate some of the work we've been doing.

I'd be interested in how you are handling switching between different audio and video sources (or do you route everthing via MC?) as this is one area that modern receivers do a great job.

Now I just need to build a subwoofer, and you can make fun of me for totally different reasons

That goes without saying!  I hope you never need a pacemaker and think.... How hard can it be?  I'll build my own!

[Matt]

I'd be interested in how you are handling switching between different audio and video sources (or do you route everthing via MC?) as this is one area that modern receivers do a great job.

A lot of people use a receiver as a switch.  But I'm computer only.

I trust you are driving some decent speakers.

You're relentless!

[HiFiTubes]

Good looking amp and I see you spent some money - I trust you are driving some decent speakers.  Also, Jim will be disappointed in your flamboyant largess!

I'd be interested in how you are handling switching between different audio and video sources (or do you route everthing via MC?) as this is one area that modern receivers do a great job.

That goes without saying!  I hope you never need a pacemaker and think.... How hard can it be?  I'll build my own!

A lot of the newer TVs seem to have 4 HDMI inputs; wondering if less people that don't mind downmixing movies to a nice 2-channel stereo setup, would be more inclined to do away with a receiver these days and go with a nicer dedicated preamp focused on fidelity (and for remote capability)?

[jmone]

A lot of people use a receiver as a switch.  But I'm computer only.

I too jam everything I can into the HTPC with the exception of the STB.  I looked at trying to use blasters and feeding the signal via Analoge In... but there were too many downsides.  The ideal would be a CAM based solution but to my knowledge there are no such devices for NDS Videogard secured systems.

You're relentless!

 Here to help!

[HTPC4ME]

Interesting topic guys,  All though old I'm still Using My DSPA1 Works like a charm, but when i upgrade at least i'll have a good houseboat anchor. 

[jesseinsf]

- Matt!  Welcome aboard to the never ending upgrade cycle!  ...

...  in the A/V cable area. Yes 99% are crap. And yes if you have a cheap system you will never hear any difference. I use Rotel Gear and a Asus Xonar Essence STX card with Tara Labs Cables and I plug every Component into a Hospital Grade 20amp Isolated ground AC receptacle. My speakers are Dynaudio. So in my case Cheap cables do degrade the sound severely. You just have to know how to set up your system correctly. The reason for the AC Receptacle is it provides a lot more Amps to the system. To clear my point, Some people test 9 volt batteries with their tongue to see if it is still good. The more you push that tongue on the battery the bigger the shock you get...lol. You don't need a 20 Amp service circuit to use the 20 Amp receptacle and it won't harm the housing wiring because it is protected by the circuit breaker. The more Available current the better bass sounds and the better and more open the music sounds.

[mschneid]

Ah... old school point of view here..
Start with your room in mind and decide on how good you want your 2.1  or just two channel sound to be?  Hunt for the speakers that match this room and drive you to nirvana listening to them... You will probably have them 20 or 30 years if they hit the mark. 

Match the center to the fronts with the same brand so that  you get good speech voicing for video. 

Pick your sub based on how well it matches to your two main speakers for music..(2.1)   Hopefully it has enough slam for you in theater mode 5.1.  The surrounds are meant to be just good enough.

I would then hunt for the best two channel power amp you can find to match your two mains.   You will have it for the rest of your life.  If you are going without an AV receiver... make it a 5 channel amp.   

Now life gives you choices that you won't have to live with for the rest of your life...   AV receivers will give you a barely adequate power amp and so by sending the main pre amp outs  to your "have it for life two channel amp" will give it plenty of head room for the three remaining channels run by the receiver.   The good news is that every 3 to 5 the technology changes enough so that an upgrade gives you value and you kick the receiver to another room.

So a 500 dollar receiver is good enough for the center and surrounds for amplification.   The  reasons to purchase a current receiver is for Base management and Room equalization with Audessy and the high res codecs off of blue ray. The right price point gives you these features. The receivers DACs are good enough for high quality home theater listening (using the hdmi or the toslink fiber inputs) The receiver preamp is good enough for either the receivers power amp section or your two channel amp. So... you also get a tuner, lots of inputs that can be switched and some convenience.  An analog volume control is tough to beat sound wise!  Personally, I like being able to us the PC or  TV without firing up the high powered stereo just to hear the news and make good use of the TV's multiple inputs in addition to what goes to the receiver.

I think of the blue ray players as technology time spacers... Ie... i can use the receiver's dated features but get a big upgrade by using the analog output of my 2011 Oppo blue ray player which uses the latest codec.  When the technology moves on... A new receiver will have the latest software, Dacs and just good enough amplification while the now dated  blue ray player just spins the disk and delivers a stream though hdmi cables.

The deluxe two channel set up puts a high resolution DAC with a two channel analog pre-amp with pass through capability.   I use the PC to serve my media to the DAC and the two channel pre and the  power amp  are uncompromising at my price point. 

I don't know if J River has a third party solution that is equal or better then Audessy's room management solution.  At the end of the day... you have to convert the digital to analog and push some air...  I don't think you ever get away from a receiver which has the audio integrated with the software solution burned into the receivers roms.  Since the software upgrades are limited... you don't want to over spend on the receiver... So.. you just plan to upgrade it every 3 to 4 years.  Yes it would be better to do all of that digital management on the PC and then send the streams out to several DACS and a multichannel pre amp and then the amp.   So far, I think a receiver  is the cheapest solution because of it's mass market appeal.   I don't know how you get to complete control with a mouse or touchscreen when you need an analog pre and power amp stage to move some air?

[DarkPenguin]

...  in the A/V cable area. Yes 99% are crap. And yes if you have a cheap system you will never hear any difference. I use Rotel Gear and a Asus Xonar Essence STX card with Tara Labs Cables and I plug every Component into a Hospital Grade 20amp Isolated ground AC receptacle. My speakers are Dynaudio. So in my case Cheap cables do degrade the sound severely. You just have to know how to set up your system correctly. The reason for the AC Receptacle is it provides a lot more Amps to the system. To clear my point, Some people test 9 volt batteries with their tongue to see if it is still good. The more you push that tongue on the battery the bigger the shock you get...lol. You don't need a 20 Amp service circuit to use the 20 Amp receptacle and it won't harm the housing wiring because it is protected by the circuit breaker. The more Available current the better bass sounds and the better and more open the music sounds.

It is rare for even the non audiophile to attempt to use their tongue as an interconnect.