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[Merv]

I'm looking to set up a machine exclusively to run J River MC and I have a (spare) Mac Pro 8 core ( 2 x 2.8 Quad Xeon) with 8 Gb of ram that I can run dual boot -ie Bootcamp.

Windows 7 32 bit only supports 4 Gb of ram, wheras 64 bit Home Basic supports 8 Gb, so..

1/ if I installed Windows 7 64 bit Home Basic would MC be able to make use of the full 8 Gb of ram ?

2/ are there any downsides / problems running Windows 7 with MC ?

thanks 

[Vincent Kars]

At the moment there is no Win7 compatible version of bootcamp available.
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT3920
You can install Win7 but you won’t be able to switch to OSX.
Here I’m running MC 14 on a Imac (20”) under Win7 (32) without a problem.

[Merv]

Thanks for the reply

As you know Apple promised Bootcamp for windows 7 before the end of 09, so I would imagine its not long to wait now

I dont mind waiting (within reason !) but i do need to decide whether to go 32 or 64 in the mean time

[Alex B]

MC would not probably not benefit from the extra GBs of RAM anyway. Currently my MC uses about 100 MBs when I browse a view of 11,000 image files in a library of 80,000 files. When I switch to the Theater View it uses 160 MB when the same image view is browsed. I think I have sometimes seen MC using about 200 MB during thumbnail creation.

In general I still prefer XP over Windows 7. I have been testing Windows 7 on one of our PCs for some time now. It has some nice UI features and options (many of them were already in Vista), but I don't like its internals. The more "secure" and more complex networking system is one of the things I don't like. Another is the new Vista/Windows 7 audio subsystem that cannot automatically change the sample rate even if the sound device has native support for automatic sample rate switching. If the audio signal's sample rate differs from what have been set in the "speaker settings" the new audio engine always resamples unless it is bypassed by using ASIO or WASAPI Exclusive mode.

[Merv]

thanks Alex thats useful, in that case I would be better of 32 bit and by the sound of it XP 32.
 I've not used Windows 7, but from what you say it sound like Vista, and I've never got on with that!

[Vincent Kars]

XP or better the K-mixer is a disaster as soon as sample rate conversion is required.
You can find tons of postings about this problem (and how to bypass the K-mixer).
The Win7 audio engine does a better job.

The fist  question is do you use different sample rates other than CD quality?
If not set the playback device to 44.1 and no SRC is required.

MC 14 can be easily configured to use WASAPI (Vista/Win7).
WASAPI bypasses the Win audio engine.

More details: http://thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/HastalaVista.html

[glynor]

The version of Bootcamp from the Snow Leopard disk works fine in Windows 7 32-bit and 64-bit edition.  The drivers aren't "certified" and the ATI drivers are kinda crappy (if you happen to have an AMD/ATI card in that Mac Pro), but it works now just fine.  For the ATI drivers, just install the ones from ATI which also work fine.  I have no idea what Vincent Kars is talking about above.

I'm running Windows 7 64-bit in Bootcamp on both my Macbook Pro and my Mac Pro.  If you can't get the 64-bit drivers to install (because it says it isn't supported) you simply have to run the 64-bit version of the setup manually and it works fine.

If you go with Windows 7 (which I would recommend), installing the 32-bit version on any system that supports the 64-bit CPU extensions (which would include any supported MacPro) would be absurd.  The 32-bit version of Windows 7 should really ONLY be used on computers that do not support x86-64 (such as the original Core Duo and Core Solo CPUs and older Pentium 4 CPUs).

EDIT: For more info on MC and 64-bit support, read this: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=53805.msg368400#msg368400

[Alex B]

The Kernel mixer in XP is not that bad. If the sound device supports automatic sample rate switching it can bypass resampling. The mixer itself adds a small inaudible amount of dithering noise, but that is preferred with any digital volume level adjuster.

The new system in Vista and Windows 7 is claimed to have a higher quality resampler, however I don't think it can be as good as the best SW resamplers are because MS must have limited the amount of CPU usage in order to keep the system usable on all kind of PCs and in various usage scenarios.

On Windows 7 I could set the "speaker" sample rate setting to 44.1 kHz, but then all 48 kHz video soundtracks would be resampled. So I have it set to 48 kHz and I use ASIO or WASAPI Exclusive mode for bypassing the resampler during audio playback. However, these modes can transmit only one audio stream at a time and that is not always what I want.

[Alex B]

If you go with Windows 7 (which I would recommend), installing the 32-bit version on any system that supports the 64-bit CPU extensions (which would include any supported MacPro) would be absurd.  The 32-bit version of Windows 7 should really ONLY be used on computers that do not support x86-64 (such as the original Core Duo and Core Solo CPUs and older Pentium 4 CPUs).

I just installed 32-bit XP Pro on my new Phenom II powered PC. I also bought only 4 GB of RAM because of the OS choice. The 3406952 kilobytes of available physical RAM that the OS reports is enough for me (at least for now).

I have several old HW devices that don't have 64-bit drivers, and probably may never have because the devices are not manufactured anymore. I still would like use them whenever preferred. I can assure that the new PC is nice and fast even with the 32-bit XP Pro OS. I would like to have some of the new UI features from Vista/Windows 7 though. I actually installed an icon set that looks like Windows 7 icons, a new desktop theme and a program for desktop widgets. I am also evaluating some Windows Explorer replacements.

That said, I might install a 64-bit OS later on a separate boot drive just for being able to evaluate it.

[tcman41]

64 bit is only required if you have a 64bit processor, 64 bit apps and need a large amount of memory for things like modeling software or high end games.

If you dont have any of the above than 32 bit is fine.


Personally for me doing things like streaming my HD movies over my home network, graphical interfaces, network detection and even driver detection, Windows 7 blows XP out of the water.

TC

[Merv]

Well....opinion seem to be very divided here

The only tasks that my Mac Pro will do are:

Run J River Media centre, and play media
rip CDs and DVDs
provide storage on its internal hard drives



From what I've gathered:

The J River MC does not use any 64 bit coded sections and would therefore not benifit from 64 bit, and wil not require high (4Gb+) levels of ram

Win 7 64 bit could provide a benifit to a system that supports 64 bit (like the Mac Pro)

from searching this forum the general consensus seems to be that Win 7 is an improvement over XP


Well thats my take on it, but please feel free to put me right 

[glynor]

I just installed 32-bit XP Pro on my new Phenom II powered PC. I also bought only 4 GB of RAM because of the OS choice. The 3406952 kilobytes of available physical RAM that the OS reports is enough for me (at least for now).

In XP, there were a lot of problems with the 64-bit version, and it wasn't recommended unless you absolutely needed it.

In Windows 7, there is no reason NOT to use the 64-bit version, if your CPU supports it.  Even if they don't have specific Windows 7 drivers for your particular piece of hardware, since they did not change the driver model for Windows 7, the Vista ones almost always work fine.  Devices that DO have Vista/Win7 drivers, but don't support the 64-bit version of the OS, are INCREDIBLY rare.  I'm sure there are a handful of weird things that do exist, but for 99% of devices, you just don't have to worry about it.  Plus, for many older devices, the built-in drivers in Windows 7 work just fine.

If you are switching to Windows 7, and you have a Core 2 Duo/Athlon 64 or newer CPU, then you might as well use the 64-bit version of Windows 7.  As a user, you don't have to care and won't notice any real difference, and it will let you use more than 4GB of RAM (if not now, down the road).  That's the only point I was making.

[glynor]

The J River MC does not use any 64 bit coded sections and would therefore not benifit from 64 bit, and wil not require high (4Gb+) levels of ram

I think MC does have a few 64-bit modules (the shell extension if nothing else).  But, there is no 64-bit specific version and it wouldn't substantially benefit from it even if they did make one.

Otherwise, yes.  There is no substantial reason NOT to go with Win7 64-bit, assuming you've decided to go with Win7.

[Alex B]

network detection

I can't make Windows 7 to detect the shared XP folders on my wired 100 MB LAN. It simply doesn't see them at all.  

This is possibly caused by some settings or services I have disabled on my XP PCs, but I have not found a solution yet.

The XP PCs can access the shared Windows 7 folders, but not easily. Usually I must write the adress in the IP-number form  (\\xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx\folder name). Only occasionally the Windows 7 PC is available as a named PC.

I have "googled".


On XP the things are easy. I just use the old unroutable NetBEUI protocol for all local file and printer sharing. NetBEUI is very safe because it cannot be accessed through Internet. It also appears to be slightly faster than TCP/IP. I normally have TCP/IP enabled only for Internet access and Library Server (Library Server uses only the basic TCP/IP connection).

And yes, I disabled NetBEUI and enabled all usual TCP/IP settings on the XP PCs when I tested Windows 7 connectivity. Unfortunately NetBEUI is not supported on Windows 7 at all. It can be installed, but it doesn't work.

[Merv]

Hi glynor,


I've never had a PC that ran 64 bit mainly because there always seemed to be 64 bit driver problems/no driver/bad drivers. but your earlier post covers that  

[Alex B]

In XP, there were a lot of problems with the 64-bit version, and it wasn't recommended unless you absolutely needed it.

In Windows 7, there is no reason NOT to use the 64-bit version, if your CPU supports it.  Even if they don't have specific Windows 7 drivers for your particular piece of hardware, since they did not change the driver model for Windows 7, the Vista ones almost always work fine.  Devices that DO have Vista/Win7 drivers, but don't support the 64-bit version of the OS, are INCREDIBLY rare.  I'm sure there are a handful of weird things that do exist, but for 99% of devices, you just don't have to worry about it.  Plus, for many older devices, the built-in drivers in Windows 7 work just fine.

-- My Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96 sound card has a 32-bit Vista driver that was released as a beta driver when Vista was new. The driver works on Win 7, but as far as I know Terratec has not released a 64-bit driver.

-- I have a Canon FB 620P scanner (paraller port). It is perfectly fine for "office use" and it works on 32-bit Windows 7 with the old driver that probably was originally created for Windows 98 & 2000 Pro. (I think I installed the driver in the XP compatibility mode).

-- I have a few old Adaptec SCSI PCI cards and various SCSI devices (including a Nikon film scanner, a UMAX flatbed scanner, a DAT tape device, etc). I have not checked if the SCSI cards are supported on a 64-bit Windows OS, but I would like to use the devices sometime in the future.

Naturally I could just create a dual boot system, but why bother if everything works as preferred on a 32-bit OS (XP or Windows 7).

[glynor]

Like I said, Alex...  There are certainly devices that are exceptions to this rule.  However, you would certainly admit that NONE of those devices you listed are mainstream, and the Canon scanner doesn't even have a Vista/Win7 driver, so it wouldn't fit my "rule of thumb" (and the soundcard driver is beta and unsupported).  Interestingly, though, for your soundcard, I found a pile of forum postings that indicate that those beta drivers you mentioned do work in Win7 64-bit (though it appears not perfectly).  Terratec has EOLed that soundcard, which isn't surprising considering that it is about 8 years old at this point.

Regarding the scanner... Did you actually try the Canon scanner with Win7 64-bit?  If it works under 32-bit Win 7, there's a pretty good chance it'll work under the 64-bit version too.  Frankly, for scanners, I don't install ANY driver (all scanner drivers are CRAP).  I just use VueScan, which doesn't require any driver to be installed AT ALL.

SCSI should be fine, so long as your Adaptec card isn't absurdly old.  I have an old PCI Adaptec SCSI card that works fine with the built-in driver (though I actually don't use it anymore because my Epson scanner also has Firewire and the switch to Win 7 was a good time to actually bother to run a new cable).

PS. And for the Original Poster, this isn't relevant.  None of that old stuff will work on a Mac Pro, which doesn't even HAVE a PCI slot or Parallel port, anyway.  

[tcman41]

Two things:

Yup , I have a cannon scanner, i think the b5000 and there is no windows 7 64bit driver for it, and also my canon a200 powershot camera wont be detected. The scanner driver always sucked in XP too, so no big loss.

In regards to Sharing files from Windows 7 to XP machines, default settings in Windows 7 dont allow permissions to all files on all hard drives in the system, I simply right clicked on the drive, went to sharing/persmissions, added "everyone" to the list and enable full control of the drive, now Windows 7 will share files to XP machines.

Some people say that opening up full control permission on a hard drive is risky, I say cow dung!, unlike some other people I am not trying to hide pron or keep such stuff away from kiddies, i dont have any. I have full security protection on all my files, nobody but me is requesting access to them, so I do it the way I mentioned above.

[glynor]

Yeah, the file sharing in Windows 7 is confusing if you understood how it worked in XP, and the disk permissions are quite restrictive by default.  However, FYI, you don't need to add the "everyone" user.  Just add an explicit permission for the user credentials that you'll be using to connect remotely and it should fix the sharing problems up.  If you are configuring file sharing manually like you would have done in XP, just disable the whole homegroup thing.  Set your network up as a "work" type network (or just click cancel to the Homegroup settings).  The homegroup stuff is nice for people who are clueless about network file sharing, but not very helpful for experienced users.

Just to be completely clear... I am absolutely NOT saying that all old hardware works fine on Windows 7.  It certainly does not (my not-that-old Audigy 2 soundcard can attest to that fact).

What I am saying is this:  If there is a working driver for Vista, then it'll almost certainly work with Windows 7.  And, if there is a working driver for Vista, there is almost certainly a working driver for the 64-bit versions of both Vista and Windows 7.  In other words, assuming you can get a device to work at all in Windows 7, it shouldn't matter anymore hardware wise whether you choose the 64-bit or the 32-bit flavor of Windows 7 (other than CPU/chipset support requirements).  There are some exceptions, but this is a very good rule-of-thumb.

This was not true in the early days of Vista, only because so many hardware companies were scrambling to support Vista at all, and 32-bit drivers generally came out first (with 64-bit support following a few months later).  This ceased to be an issue a long time ago.

[Alex B]

Like I said, Alex...  There are certainly devices that are exceptions to this rule.  However, you would certainly admit that NONE of those devices you listed are mainstream, and the Canon scanner doesn't even have a Vista/Win7 driver, so it wouldn't fit my "rule of thumb" (and the soundcard driver is beta and unsupported).  Interestingly, though, for your soundcard, I found a pile of forum postings that indicate that those beta drivers you mentioned do work in Win7 64-bit (though it appears not perfectly).  Terratec has EOLed that soundcard, which isn't surprising considering that it is about 8 years old at this point.

The Terratec is old (I bought mine in 2003), but as someone said in the thread you linked it is difficult to find a newer replacement with similar features and audio quality at the same price range.

Regarding the scanner... Did you actually try the Canon scanner with Win7 64-bit?  If it works under 32-bit Win 7, there's a pretty good chance it'll work under the 64-bit version too.  Frankly, for scanners, I don't install ANY driver (all scanner drivers are CRAP).  I just use VueScan, which doesn't require any driver to be installed AT ALL.

SCSI should be fine, so long as your Adaptec card isn't absurdly old.  I have an old PCI Adaptec SCSI card that works fine with the built-in driver (though I actually don't use it anymore because my Epson scanner also has Firewire and the switch to Win 7 was a good time to actually bother to run a new cable).

I noticed your reply regarding VueScan some time ago and downloaded the trial. Unfortunately it doesn't support paraller port scanners. I am going to test it with my SCSI scanners. (I don't use film cameras anymore and I am not going to buy new scanners if I can avoid that, but sometimes I still need to scan old photos or printed items.)

So far I have evaluated Windows 7 only on an Athlon XP 3200+/2GB RAM system so 64-bit was not an option. The 32-bit version works fine, except the yet unresolved LAN issue. As I said, I might try the 64-bit version on my new PC later.

PS. And for the Original Poster, this isn't relevant.  None of that old stuff will work on a Mac Pro anyway.  

You are right , if I recall correctly the Mac Pro's don't even have conventional PCI slots anymore.

[glynor]

I noticed your reply regarding VueScan some time ago and downloaded the trial. Unfortunately it doesn't support paraller port scanners. I am going to test it with my SCSI scanners. (I don't use film cameras anymore and I am not going to buy new scanners if I can avoid that, but sometimes I still need to scan old photos or printed items.)

Wow!  It used to!  I used to use it with my very old (and terribly bad) UMAX Parallel port scanner.  Of course, that was thrown in the garbage heap years ago.

Still, if you really want to keep that thing going, it might be worth trying to dig up a circa-2003 copy of VueScan and see if that might work with it.  That, or try doing it Ebay/Craig's List style to get a new one.  I bet old scanners are a dime a dozen anymore.

You are right , if I recall correctly the Mac Pro's don't even have conventional PCI slots anymore.

Yeah, no MacPro model ever had PCI slots in it.  They are all PCIe (4 16x physical slots).  Actually, even the old PowerMac G5 machines (the first with the "cheese grater" aluminum design) didn't have any real PCI slots.  They were all PCI-X originally, moving to PCIe later.

In fact, my brand new Nehalem-based Mac Pro at the office doesn't even have any Firewire 400 ports on it anymore (just three Firewire 800 ports), much to my dismay when I went to plug in my nifty little FireWire hub.  I had to wait for monoprice to deliver one of those FireWire 400-to-800 cables in order to use my camcorder!