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[murrayp]

Hi,

I'm using ver 14.0.96 driving USB via Wasapi in Exclusive mode, Sony vaio, Win 7.  The only way I can get it to go properly is with buffering set to minimum (50ms) and even then I get the odd click and pop coming through per song.  If I set it to any higher buffer value it gets quite bad, eventually stuttering badly.  This problem doesn't happen in non-exclusive mode.  Unfortunately I feel that exclusive mode gives the best sound (I have an audiophile set up).  
Music is on the local disc.  Vista did the same thing.  It does seem also to be related to other computer activity - occasionally some other computer function (if it gets a bit busy) will upset it quite badly.  Still, why only in exclusive mode and why would the larger buffer make it worse??
Any hints at all would be appreciated. tks.
Murray

[JimH]

Are you using a DAC?  If so, please see DAC Settings on our wiki.

Also try a Google Search.  I found official MS acknowledgement of problems with Exclusive mode in the initial RTM version of Vista.

[Vincent Kars]

In case of USB audio, your audio might stutter if it is on the same hub as e.g. a mouse
Try to find a USB port not shared with any other device
You can do so by opening the device manager and choose devices by connection
Expand all USB until you find your audio

[murrayp]

Thanks Jim and Vincent.

the usb dac is a dCS upsampler running without upsampling.  I understand dCS just use a standard USB driver.  As a reminder, the pops or clicks only happen in Wasapi Exclusive mode and get worse with increased buffering, best with least (50ms).   Given less is better (say one click per minute at 50ms, but many per minute at 100ms), is there anyway to get less buffer than 50ms?  Incidentally a very similar result occurs in Foobar Wasapi, except its buffer doesn't go below 100ms at which level the results are badly affected by pops and clicks.  Vincent, I'm not familiar with device manager but had a look - I couldn't see any reference to any USB device in the "devices by connection view".  I've tried all three USB ports with similar results and in non-exclusive mode it works perfectly (but doesn't sound as good).

Any further thoughts / suggestions appreciated,

tks

Murray

[Vincent Kars]

Almost all USB audio is done using the native mode USB driver, dCS is no exeption to this rule.

I had the same with Foobar, increase the buffer and it starts to stutter.
However, I can run both MC 14 and Foobar in WASAPI exclusive without stutters using a Benchmark DAC1.
The major reason for me to migrate from WMP to MC14 is WASAPI support indeed.
It sounds more transparant than DS.

[JimH]

Almost all USB audio is done using the native mode USB driver, dCS is no exeption to this rule.

Several USB DAC's use a driver from Gordon Rankin at Wavelength.

[JimH]

Did you try the 24 bit setting in the link I gave you above?

You will need to select 24-bit in DSP Studio. High end DACs seem to like 24-bit data. They don't like the default WASAPI option "Present 24-bit data in a 32-bit package".

[Vincent Kars]

Several USB DAC's use a driver from Gordon Rankin at Wavelength.

No, this is not where it is about.
Native mode USB drivers are the drivers that comes with the OS.
Gordon uses the native mode drivers too.
You don't need to install any driver at all on the PC to use his DAC.
What he has done is implementing a asynchronous driver in the DAC instead of a adaptive one.

[HiFiTubes]

On all my PCs, I have to disable exclusive mode to achieve playback.

Peachtree Nova USB does up to 44kHz; luckily I don't use that input, but MC has a problem.

I think I had the same result with my Musiland (USB sound card) transport as well; will have to double check.

[JimH]

On all my PCs, I have to disable exclusive mode to achieve playback.

Something's not right with your system then.  Applications can use WASAPI in shared or exclusive mode.  If you can't get access in exclusive mode, maybe another application has opened WASAPI in exclusive mode.

[HiFiTubes]

It doesn't work on:

Vista x86:

Creative Audigy 2
onboard creative card

Windows 7 x64:

EMU 1616M wave device
Peachtree Nova USB
Musiland USB

I'm not an expert on WASAPI, but shouldn't it work on any sound device, not just USB?

Why does Foobar not have an "Exclusive" option. Maybe it is Windows locking these devices? I think there may be an option somewhere.

thanks
hifi

[HiFiTubes]

Don't know whose "fault" this is, but MC WASAPI can not be used in exclusive mode when using higher sampling rates.

I can use all my devices at 24/96, but only when exclusive mode is disabled (toggle Windows setting has no affect).

If I change to 16/44, Media Center can use exclusive mode.

All devices can be used by MC14 or Windows at higher bit depth and sampling rates; exclusive mode doesn't allow MC14 to utilize them however.

Obviously a major issue for anyone with a halfway decent DAC.

Sounds like a conflict (on Vista and 7) between Windows and MC14 (and I have to wonder if my recent Library Server buffering/dropouts issues at 96kHz - 2300-3000kbps - are related to this).

[JimH]

Did you try everything recommended in the "DAC Settings" link above?

Are you seeing problems on more than one machine?

[HiFiTubes]

Now my Creative card is working with the same settings, go figure.

The onboard high-definition speaker device can do 96kHz.

When set to 16/44 in windows this device can not be used by MC14 in Exclusive mode: MC14 settings at 24/96, nor can it be used in Exclusive mode at windows settings @ 24/96kHz . Switching from 44kHz to 96kHz in Windows sound properties for this device crashes MC every time.

I think both of these devices on this work PC can auto-switch sample rates on the fly unlike my EMU at home. I'm not complaining, I need to read up on how Vista and 7 changed things; I would like to use WASAPI with my EMU card (which feeds my DAC via BNC) at home though and possibly with a new DAC that can do 96kHz over USB.

I will check my 96kHz USB sound card (Musiland), 44kHz Nova USB, and EMU PCI on my home PC later to verify WASAPI operation.

thanks
hifi

[mojave]

To test things another way you can download Reclock and set it for WASAPI Exclusive output. In Tools > Options > File Types > Playback Methods change from Automatic to JRiver Audio Engine (using DirectShow filter). You don't actually need to select any filters. Now play some audio and either right click on the Display or go to Display View and right click. Hover the mouse pointer over "DirectShow Filters" and then click "Select Filters..." Now choose "Reclock Audio Renderer" as the Audio Renderer and click OK. Reclock will now insert itself as the audio renderer and send the output via WASAPI Exclusive mode.

[HiFiTubes]

I'm a little confused about devices like EMU cards which lock sample rate.

We discussed this in another thread.

If using WASAPI, shouldn't just the setting (sample rate) MC14 matter?

One would not need to set the sample rate in Windows sound device properties because aren't we bypassing Windows altogether?

Thus, should be able to set EMU at 96kHz, and have MC at 96kHz, and upsample any non-native 96kHz material while using WASAPI?

many thanks on the Reclock tool.
hifi

[Vincent Kars]

Observe that WASAPI does nothing at all, especially no resampling.
16/24 is probably not the issues. If the soundcard expects 24 bits and the audio is 16, the setting 24  in MC14 probably appends 8 zero's.

What you send to the sound card should match the sample rates supported by the sound card.
If you send 44.1 and you set the sound card to 96 in Windows, it will probably fail.

[Alex B]

I have no problems with playing anything up to 24/96 in the exclusive mode on Windows 7 (32-bit) using a Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96. It doesn't even have a Windows 7 driver. The last driver Terratec created for it is a beta version for Vista, but apparently it works fine.

In the attached screenshot I am playing a 24-bit 88.2 kHz test sample. The sound device has automatically switched to 88.2 kHz.

[HiFiTubes]

Right, EMU cards don't switch.

MC upsampling can throw any source rate at your card's selected sample rate, as long as your card and MC are at the same sample rate.

The Nova issue is one thing; I don't use it but I will check on it.

The EMU may be more complicated because in the past these types were never controlled by Windows whatsoever. Even if you choose it as a wav device, Patchmix locked out Windows from any volume changes.

[HiFiTubes]

Observe that WASAPI does nothing at all, especially no resampling.
16/24 is probably not the issues. If the soundcard expects 24 bits and the audio is 16, the setting 24  in MC14 probably appends 8 zero's.

What you send to the sound card should match the sample rates supported by the sound card.
If you send 44.1 and you set the sound card to 96 in Windows, it will probably fail.

I think you misunderstand my post. the cards are all capable of 96kHz and MC is trying to send that to them. For some reason the device onboard my work PCs motherboard doesn't play nice with exclusive mode. I don't use it, but someone else may wish to.

Also, my question was whether or not WASAPi bypasses Windows sound device settings/properties which I think it does because I can use the Creative audigy card at 96kHz WASAPI with Windows set at 44kHz. Those settings in Widnows Sound say "Sample rate to use when in shared mode.

[HiFiTubes]

Using my Audigy all day with WASAPI. Nothing shows up in the Windows sound mixer, as it should.

I switched the sound card's properties in Windows from 24/96 to 16/44 and MC crashed as it did earlier when doing this for the onboard sound.

MC is obviously using the device exclusively and bypassing Windows; why it is crashing I have no idea.

[ninekit]

I use Musiland Monitor 01 USD USB-S/PDIF adaptor, Vista 32bit, MC14 with WASAPI exclusive mode.
No pop / clicks at all with buffer set to the lowest, but need to make sure checking send 24bit data in 32bit format.
Hope this help.

[murrayp]

Did you try the 24 bit setting in the link I gave you above?

Yes, in fact that is the only way it will even think about working.  The tantalising thing is that whatever is going on depends on the buffer time, and maybe 25 to 40ms would work fine - 50ms almost does.  I saw a reference to this with another player on another site. I've no idea why there should be a relationship, but there is.

btw I tried 88kHz and 96kHz files and they work similarly -they output at the sample rate ok but with occasional clicks and pops.  Same with any of my three USB outputs.  Haven't another pc to try (this one Sony Vaio, W7).

tks

Murray

[murrayp]

To test things another way you can download Reclock and set it for WASAPI Exclusive output. In Tools > Options > File Types > Playback Methods change from Automatic to JRiver Audio Engine (using DirectShow filter). You don't actually need to select any filters. Now play some audio and either right click on the Display or go to Display View and right click. Hover the mouse pointer over "DirectShow Filters" and then click "Select Filters..." Now choose "Reclock Audio Renderer" as the Audio Renderer and click OK. Reclock will now insert itself as the audio renderer and send the output via WASAPI Exclusive mode.

Thanks Mojave - indeed this works very well.  Only the rare pop and click so far, but the sound can drop out without warning (requiring stop play, and re-start on the track and all is well again).  I'll run it for a while and report back. There is still a relationship with the (Reclock) buffer setting - too small (say 30 ms or less) now and clicks and pops arrive.  Keep in mind I want it all and am busy using my laptop to surf, write this, etc etc while expecting perfect audio output at the same time - maybe i ask too much ;-)

Murray

[murrayp]

Just another point that might help get to the bottom of this - using the standard Wasapi Exclusive path (not Reclock), if I set a long buffer eg 400ms, the player will run for a second or so with sound, then lock up.  In this case the player itself also stops (time counter, play slider and spectrum display all stop).  Pressing play again starts it but the problem persists.  In this case the issue is obviously going well beyond the USB output.  I've no clue about this stuff - just reporting what I see.
tks
Murray

[HiFiTubes]

Didn't have a chance to play with ReClock, but I can say the WASAPI with my EMU hardware is unstable whereas EMU ASIO is rock solid.

I have tried both word length options.

WASAPI results in pops and click, intermittent, but loud and unacceptable.

I also had a track that completely lost sync, the sample rate was all wonky and the track stuttered. Stop and restart worked fine.

Switching back to ASIO until this is sorted out.

[JimH]

Didn't have a chance to play with ReClock, but I can say the WASAPI with my EMU hardware is unstable whereas EMU ASIO is rock solid.

I have tried both word length options.

WASAPI results in pops and click, intermittent, but loud and unacceptable.

I also had a track that completely lost sync, the sample rate was all wonky and the track stuttered. Stop and restart worked fine.

Switching back to ASIO until this is sorted out.

Maybe you've said, but I want to be sure.  Read this carefully:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/DAC_Settings

[HiFiTubes]

"WASAPI is Microsoft's method for delivering an unmodified bitstream to a sound device"

Yes, thanks for checking, I did try  toggling some of the options (32bit package) after the sync issue. Then I noted the pops and clicks before heading to work. In exclusive mode.

I don't know if I can use it with an EMU PCI card, but according to the quote above I should be able to.

[murrayp]

Thanks Mojave - indeed this works very well.  Only the rare pop and click so far, but the sound can drop out without warning (requiring stop play, and re-start on the track and all is well again).  I'll run it for a while and report back. There is still a relationship with the (Reclock) buffer setting - too small (say 30 ms or less) now and clicks and pops arrive.  Keep in mind I want it all and am busy using my laptop to surf, write this, etc etc while expecting perfect audio output at the same time - maybe i ask too much ;-)

Murray

Reporting back as promised - using Reclock, Wasapi exclusive mode works well except the sound drop outs continue occaisionally.  They seem to be related to other laptop activity.  In a drop out MC14 keeps running but the USB output stops so I guess it is a Reclock issue. Pressing play gets it all going again (seems to reset Reclock on each start).  If I avoid using the laptop for other uses it happens much less often.

I mentioned above, in my case glitch and pop issues also occur with other media players, similar to what MC14 does, using Wasapi Exclusive.  (My dac is a dCS asynchronous USB connection device, but uses the native USB driver - nothing else is installed).   Interestingly a new Wasapi Exclusive plugin written for Winamp however has worked flawlessly for me in Winamp (not my choice of player but it works!).  I'm no software person but it seems that this indicates that something is interfering with the MC14 Wasapi output in some cases, but the Winamp plugin demonstrates it can be overcome.  It'd be great if someone could look into this again please.  It may be an artifact of my laptop but I'm pretty sure it is nothing to do with my dac set up - I've been through all that ad nauseum.

many tks

Murray

[Vincent Kars]

You might try DPC Latency Checker
It is a Windows tool that analyses the capabilities of a computer system to handle real-time data streams properly.
The performance monitor might be useful too, check for process peaking, anti virus polling the internet, etc.

[HiFiTubes]

I have used this before and downloaded the latency checker again last month. System has very low latency reported. Very handy tool.

[DigitalDirect]

Following the instructions in the Wiki doesn't seem to resolve the pop an click problem, at least for going out to a Firewire interface.

Exclusive is checked, pack 24 bits in 32 bits unchecked, DSP is 24 bit, source number of channels, source sampling rate (also tried 96kHz). Still getting numerous pops and clicks with various buffer settings, from 0.05 upwards.

I also tried going out via USB, and the clicks and pops are definitely less, but still a nuisance.


Environment:

MC 14, build 147
Vista 32 bit, all updates installed
Firewire output to M-Audio Pro Fire
S/PDIF from Pro Fire to external DAC

[murrayp]

The later versions seem to be better, but still random pops and clicks come through here.  Another player seemed to work ok here when it was altered to be able to source the regular 10ms packets dCS seem to want (over the standard USB driver).  Maybe that would work here if not already set up to handle this.  tks  Murray

[HiFiTubes]

I'll be testing the new Eastern Electric DAC in WASAPI tonight. From memory, last night it did not work, but I was testing 3 other devices.

Jon

[Matt]

We're working with dCS now to see if we can improve the experience while using WASAPI exclusive.

[DigitalDirect]

Build 155 is pretty much the same as earlier editions with respect to Firewire/1394 issues.

1. WASAPI output via 1394 is unusable because of pops, 15-20 a minute. Yuck. This happens with WMA 96/24 lossless as well as WAV files.
Using WMP, also using1394, zero pops or tick, but the sound is altered (euphonically) via the Vista audio DSP stack. Buffering times from 50 ms to 5 seconds don't seem to influence the results. So WASAPI doesn't like going out via 1394; WMP is fine with it. Does this give any clues? It's the same 1394 driver, just being fed via WMP rather than WASAPI.

System configuration is Toshiba Qosmio 1394 to M-Audio, SPDIF out to Lavry DA-11.


2. WASAPI output via TOSLINK is free from obvious artifacts, just doesn't offer the same overall sound quality that SPDIF does.
System configuation is Toshiba Qosmio TOSLINK via Wireworld glass optical fiber to Lavry DA-11.

It looks like high-end USB to SPDIF, and 1394 to AES, SPDIF converters will be in house shortly... Standby

[Matt]

Last we heard from dCS was that they were working to shore up the WASAPI issues with their DACs.  We'll let you know if we hear any more.

[murrayp]

Finally I have Wasapi working here w/o clicks or pops.  The solution after so long - I cleaned out all applications I didn't need.  Obviously one of them was causing contention.  I guess the obvious one (though I never isolated which really) would have been Spybot which seems to run in the background at a very low level in the system.    Guess I should have done this first...... (fill embarrassed smiley here....)  I use Avast as well but that doesn't seem to bother the Wasapi interface.  Anyway, perhaps this will give someone else another idea of a place to look.  The sound from Wasapi btw is a good step up from Asio4all at least in my set up - now very close to the quality from my transport.  Thanks to all for their help and suggestions.  I really can't say how impressed I am with your prodcut btw - it really is quite excellent!