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[JimH]

We've been spending some time thinking about marketing.  Amazing, right?  It's not the kind of crisp problem that we're used to solving, so I asked a friend to lend a hand.  He had a lot of good advice.

One of his ideas revolved around this forum, this community.  We've always felt it was an important asset.  He suggested enlisting your help in building the community.

So.... I'm soliciting ideas.  I'll start with a couple:

One we've done was making a coupon available for you to post on other forums you visit.  That was moderately successful.  If anyone wants one, please let me know.  It gave new users a $10 discount on a new purchase of MC (not an upgrade).

I think that new users might benefit from having a buddy or big brother here.  Someone who offers to do a little one-on-one help by e-mail or even phone.  I talked to someone yesterday, for example, who was stuck on a simple question -- how to change the location of ripped files.  It took me less than a minute to solve his problem.  

Another way you've helped us is by giving MC a plug on other forums.  Your enthusiastic endorsement is far more powerful than any advertising we can do.

Another is to formally recognize those people who are already doing this.  Club MC.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,

Jim

[rick.ca]

One of his ideas revolved around this forum, this community.  We've always felt it was an important asset.  He suggested enlisting your help in building the community.

For me, this is more than just an important asset. If I have a choice, I'll no longer even consider using software (for any application that is important to me) unless (1) it's development is continuous and has some degree of transparency, and (2) it's supported by an open user forum in which the developers participate. So I wonder if this can be used more "aggressively" to distinguish MC.

I think that new users might benefit from having a buddy or big brother here.

I know some new users really seem to want that. But from my perspective, it's almost always easier to offer assistance in a public forum. Knowing there's lot's of people "listening," I don't have to be as concerned about fully understanding the question, being wrong or missing something. It encourages me to try to answer in a way helpful to others with the same or similar questions. Also, I think a new user might expect a buddy to be able to answer at least a majority of their questions. But anyone who knows the program well knows they know far less than half of it well enough to answer questions.

Another is to formally recognize those people who are already doing this.  Club MC.

I enthusiastically endorse MC whenever I think the recommendation might be appreciated. But I might hesitate to do so if I have to wonder if my motivation for doing so will be seen to be some kind of reward received here—even if just a simple recognition. What might be useful, however, is a referral URL which sends the prospect to some some sort of introduction page which, among other things, tells them the user name of person who referred them. That would give them some indication of the referrer's "credentials," the ability to send a personal message, and perhaps even feel they have a potential buddy. Also, depending on the content of that introduction page, it would make it easier to make the referral—to the extent it explained what MC is, listed it's most distinguished features, and effectively directed the prospect to further resources. (BTW, I'm not passing judgment on anything like this that already exists. I'm not a new user, so I'm not familiar with them.)

[marko]

Someone who offers to do a little one-on-one help by e-mail or even phone.

I helped an MC user from the States fix up his library paths using an MSN voice connection. It was much easier to verify the state of things as they were, to then advise as how best to proceed, and probably took less than 15 minutes.

Fixing this via the forum would have been a lot more convoluted, and a lot more error prone.

It was almost two years ago, and the chaps name was JetBlack. I'm sure he was happy with the help he received.

Perhaps you could set up one of those "Live Help" things you see on a few sites. I used one on Seagate's website a few years ago and was appreciative of the option, and that it actually worked!! I'm not sure how they work, so not sure if it's even possible, but if someone logs in looking for 1:1 help, and someone else is logged in who has agreed to offer 1:1 help, they could click on something that would connect the two? Many of us use MC in many different ways and so some are better versed in any given feature than others might be. I could imagine a list of areas a member may need help with, which would connect them with someone with more likelihood of being able to help.

If the helper believes that the greater community would be better served by a forum thread, they could direct the help request thus, and then continue to help in that thread, unless it's something more complex where 1:1 will work better.

-marko

[fredphoesh]

We've been spending some time thinking about marketing.  Amazing, right?
Any other ideas?

Hi Jim
Weirdly I was thinking of how good MC is and how unknown it is just yesterday.

For me as a newbie, I would say

1/ The name is weird. Microsoft has Media Center, and J River is very odd IMO. I would definitely change the name for starters.

2/ I have not come across any YouTube podcasts on the MC website. I would recommend two types. Firstly a 5 or 10 min enthusiastic tour of all features, a whiz bang, "look what I can do" show. Im sure that would be pretty easy to make and would alert people to MCs power and advantages it does have over the competition. The second type I would recommend is a bunch of shorter ones which deal with specific things, like ripping, burning, tagging, setting up server and client, etc etc...

Going to forums to talk about another product is a good idea for awareness -I'm sure my recent posts about a certain Tagging programme has stirred some curiosity  ;-)

Cheers,
Mark

[ADDiCT]

Finally you are beginning to recognize the amazing asset you've got in the form of this forum's users.

I always thought marketing for MC is rather - if you'll excuse me saying so - amateurish. Marketing is so much more than sending "get our product cheap!" emails. If i were a/the JRiver exec I'd ASAP budget maybe $10k-$15k and let a professional create a written marketing concept (strategy paper). The money will be well spent and you'll have something "solid" to work with.

For the purposes of this forum I have only a handful of ideas/wishes:
- appreciate what this community is doing for JRiver and act accordingly. Free beta testing, people acting as "multiplicators" (in the marketing sense), free user-to-user-support - think about what major asset you have here and what budget you'd need if you'd have to pay for all of these services. My guess is that many of the "hardcore" users on this forum wouldn't care about $10 off the next MC version, or maybe even consider an offer like that a slight insult. Recognition/positive feedback is what makes people really tick i believe - especially when they're fans. Money is just a tool to get recognition and/or positive feedback, or at least that's what capitalism is trying to make us believe.

I don't have any numbers on the matter but I have the strong feeling that there's a lot of (possibly untapped) potential for MC. One the one hand there's the "media freaks" (your marketing friend would probably call these people "early adopters") which have been using MC for years now. Those you'll reach in this forum I guess. I believe a huge wave of "casual" users and audiophiles (people who are used to investing big money in media equipment) is approaching though. People who are beginning to use PC's not as "work tools" but as part of their media consumption. I believe it'd make sense to think about how to reach those people - not in ten years but now.

[fredphoesh]

I think that new users might benefit from having a buddy or big brother here.  Someone who offers to do a little one-on-one help by e-mail or even phone.  

Jim
Thats not a bad idea, but as a newbie, I would personally get a bit uncomfortable asking my big brother loads of questions on many occasions, as i came up with new issues...

I think short 1 minute videos on how to do each thing would be far more useful and appealing to newbies who can see it working, and see it again and again if they want.

I will PM with other info.

Cheers,
Mark.

[JimH]

Sascha,
I sent you e-mail.  Maybe you haven't read it.

Jim

[JimH]

Yap,
I moved your posts to the other thread:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=57914.0

[glynor]

One of the little things I do to try to evangelize MC regularly is that when I'm DJ-ing at an informal party (which happens with some regularity).  People often ask what software I'm using (commenting something like "that's not iTunes, what is that?").  Actually, having a print-out of those coupons in my laptop bag could come in handy.  I always tell people what it is, and extol the virtues of MC, but you know...

There's also usually adult beverages involved, so how many of those interested people remember "J River" the next day?

[MusicHawk]

As @rick.ca points out, it's tricky to endorse a product but also seem to benefit from someone buying it.

In the latest Advisor.com article I wrote about JR MC  (the earliest was ~10 years ago), I put in links to JR sites, but did not consider providing a discount code/coupon because it might alter the "aroma" of the article. Even though the discount would go from JR to the buyer, there might be a suspicion that my site is also in on the action.

Of course, this type of decision depends on the nature of the posting about MC. If it's a personal context thing, perhaps anything goes. But a professional website might have stricter standards. In my 25 years of publishing product reviews/evals/news, it has always been a requirement to separate editorial from advertising (leading to some unhappy advertisers who apparently thought they were also buying favorable editorial). I think this is important given how much of the Web is a swamp of self-serving junk.

That said, maybe there's a way to provide an MC buyer benefit in a clean-room way relative to the accompanying mention/recommendation. Ideas?

[jmone]

I'm cold on the "pay for say" approach for all the reasons given above.

Enhancing Support: I do think that there can be another level of support provided by either JR or board "experts".  As an example I had a problem with my website, especially the Gallery (PHP code) config.  I tried to fix it myself, used the boards etc....but to no avail.  What the boards did offer however was how you could contact, and pay for (using PayPal), a Gallery/PHP boffin to log onto your system and "fix" it.  Work perfectly for me, paid by the 30min block and someone who knew what to do just fixed it.  They even have a resolution system if you are not happy with how it all goes. 

Interact does a great job for posting and answering quick "how do I..." type questions.  The tougher stuff is the issues some users have like with what "Maid" is currently experiencing in getting her filters sorted out.  It is very hard to do this over the phone, but a VNC session (eg UltraVNC is free and does a one click user initiated VNC session) so an "MC Expert" can have a look at what is happing may be a quicker/better solution.  Imagine having Glynor take over a tune up your DirectShow filters for you!  The risk to JR is that if these type of problems are not sorted our then the user just moves on.

[rjm]

How about adding a bragging section to the forum?

Users could brag about their views, skins, smartlists, libraries, tagging techniques, etc.  And could optionally offer help to those wanting to emulate.

I bet it would become THE place to go for prospective users wondering if they should invest.

[JimH]

How about adding a bragging section to the forum?

Sort of a "Hey Mom.  Watch this!" section.  Funny.  Thanks.

[HiFiTubes]

What about a feedback system or button and under "Posts", it could read "Assists". Would have to devise a way for it not to be abused...unique IP?

Maybe this could add up and be worth redeeming for MC Reward Points; 500 assists = 500 MCRPs.

Not sure what the rewards would be.....10 downloads from Performer? Partial discount on next purchase/upgrade? JimH autograph  

[bunglemebaby]

2/ I have not come across any YouTube podcasts on the MC website. I would recommend two types. Firstly a 5 or 10 min enthusiastic tour of all features, a whiz bang, "look what I can do" show.
The second type I would recommend is a bunch of shorter ones which deal with specific things, like ripping, burning, tagging, setting up server and client, etc etc...

I would agree with this point. Having a YouTube presence can be big for some segments of potential customers. Having a complete set of useful MC tutorials is certainly too large a task to be possible, but selecting the right subsection of features to put tutorials out serves two purposes: first to help people figure out how to use the program, second as a marketing tool to show some of what MC can do (that the competition can't).
See a few of the FLStudio Guru videos here: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=fl+studio+guru&page=&utm_source=opensearch for what I perceive to be a successful example of this sort of thing in action. The company, Imageline, also has more in depth tutorial series, but the Guru videos work better as marketing. One more small thing that this series does is give more familiarity with the person doing the videos. He is also very present on their user forum, which is quite similar to the JRiver forum here. Some people can be quite charmed by feeling like they know the person behind the forum posts a little more.
Coming back to Jim's original post, is there something that JRiver could do to encourage users to create some of this type of content? It might just be that having a small set of JRiver produced videos could help set the tone and scope for what MC video tutorials can/should be. I'm trying to think here on the spot of what sort of tutorial I might make if I tried to...it's a bit overwhelming.

One other thing to think about in terms of marketing, is what new users see once they're in the door for a test drive. MC can obviously have a huge learning curve attached to it.
Tutorial videos could obviously help get over some of the initial hurdles.
This forum can likewise help.
One thing missing (that's been discussed here numerous times) is a good and reasonably up-to-date help file. I don't really want to open up a help-file pros/cons discussion, I just wanted to give a reminder that it's another thing that affects marketing and the perception of JRiver to potential new users.
Maybe incorporating something like HiFiTubes "Assists" points idea with the wiki pages could help out with the lack of documentation situation. Earning song downloads could be a decent motivator for some (no idea if song dl's are a feasible thing here...)

One other general reminder that I read someplace recently: Focus the marketing on what MC can do for customers, rather than on what MC is and what it does.
If you look at the MC homepage, I'd say it's 50/50 in this regard. Playing the devil's advocate - "Sure, I can connect all my toys...then what?" I guess my thought is that while this forum is a rather robust resource the main webpage doesn't do much. That's how I felt when I was first checking MC out too. I wouldn't have bothered downloading the trial if I hadn't poked around the forums some.

I think I've rambled on without enough concrete points to warrant going further...

[imugli]

Part of the reason I love this product so much is because the forum is full of people who simply want to help. They love the product and simply want everyone else to get the same level of enjoyment from it - regardless of how simple or complicated the other person wants MC to be.

Unlike other forums, there are no egos.

I know I'm just happy to help out where I can (on the rare occasion where I can ), because others have helped me. Call it a pay it forward thing.

I don't know that introducing some kind of reward system wouldn't risk detracting from that...

Jim, you guys have a premium product and should market it as such. Put it in front of dedicated HTPC makers and get them putting your software in their PCs. Have them place a sticker on the case like every mobo maker does ("JRiver Inside" or similar). Make it an aspirational product as opposed to the run-of-the-mill MCE. It may add a little more stress as far as supporting more users, but those that want to spend the extra for "JRiver Inside" will likely know more about what they're doing than your average "Give me a remote and MCE and I'm set" clientele.

You guys have the best product there is. Bar none. Don't dumb it down simply to chase market share.

[Gl3nn]

One thing missing (that's been discussed here numerous times) is a good and reasonably up-to-date help file.

Lots of good points and good ideas are being made in this thread but this one hits home for me.  I'd give anything for this. 

You may be successful in getting a new customer to try MC15 but I just have to believe that the "average" user does not have the patience and perseverance to plow through forum messages, search a wiki, or post messages and wait for a reply.  The "average" users I know wouldn't do this, never.  But they do spend a LOT of money on gear, and I really believe that many of them would love MC15.

[syndromeofadown]

Market Jukebox instead of Media Center.

Audiophiles and serious collectors will find Media Center through necessity.

Most people I know are using iTunes and windows media player. These people are happy with their current software because they don’t know what they are missing. If you give them a free alternative, like jukebox, they will be more inclined to make the switch. Once people are using jukebox you can GENTLY give them reminders/reasons to upgrade. I know you already do this, but what I’m getting at is that jukebox isn’t easy to find. When J River is googled, jrmediacenter.com is the first site listed. I assume most people start and end there, and will never make it to mediajukebox.com. I suggest you link to jukebox on your main web page with an emphasis on the free part. If people are looking for alternatives to windows and I tunes, they can find dozens of programs that are free, so why would they even try a demo of software that isn’t.
J river is extremely customizable and that is what makes it so great. Other software is not. For people making the switch, the customization may not be the high on their priority list. For this reason I think default Views and Options should be simple user friendly. A “User Tips” dialog box could appear on startup to help guide the new users. Just make sure it is very easy to disable for the people that don’t care.

I find that free software is usually better than paid software. Media Center is one of the few exceptions and jukebox is how people will find out.

Sadly, most people I know use ipods and they use iTunes because they have to. For some reason this doesn’t bother them. This has probably been said a million times, but ipod support would be great. Instead of the traditional support you have offered for them you could try a different approach. Unofficially lend some expertise to Rockbox so maybe the new ipods can be Rockboxed, then officially promote Rockbox so ipod users are aware of it.

[gvanbrunt]

One thing J River really needs to do is "Toot it's own horn". I feel the current website really doesn't do the product justice. In fact compared to the product, it is really doesn't offer much. Many users will assume that the product is a limited as the website.

A good case in point. My brother solicited my advice for replacing his current media player. I told him how MC solved almost every request he asked about. Then he proceeded to look at the website, and decided not to give it a try since he would have to install Windows (he was on Linux) and the pictures on the website didn't look that good. Specifically Theater View. I told him how they were old and had been updated substantially, but he still turned his nose up at it. I wrote it off as "his loss", but actually it is also J Rivers loss since he has lots of friends that trust his advice and get HTPC's built by him.

I think a lot of ground could be made by enticing users into trying the product via a great site with Video, Flash, etc that really shows what the product can do. Captivate is relatively cheap and can make great tutorials/demos of the product that take up a small amount of bandwith.

[fredphoesh]

Sort of a "Hey Mom.  Watch this!" section.  Funny.  Thanks.

yeah, nice idea, and should be linked to the home page "our customers love to brag"

[MGD_King]

Sort of a "Hey Mom.  Watch this!" section.  Funny.  Thanks.

I love this idea because I know that there's some things that users here are doing that I have no idea how they did it! In a "bragging board" users can show off and then explain how they did it.

I know that I've convinced a handful of people to purchase MC and they all say the same thing: "why doesn't everyone use this? It's so much better than (insert compitition's name here)."

[rjm]

How about adding a bragging section to the forum?

Probably wise to establish a few rules so that it presents a positive tone to new users. For example, we should encourage users to be bold and arrogant with topics like "I have the best tagging system in the world". But we should prohibit criticism and debate. In other words, you can claim you have the best but you cannot tear down someone else's similar claim.

[HTPC4ME]

i sell for you guys weekly, to people i run into.

i suggest a better site. throw flash\something similiar on there and show what ya can do. pics dont do it justice, grab camtasia, and record your self doing things, so people get an idea of the vast possiblities they have.

open camtasia, hit record (make sure audio mix is on) open jriver, goto theater view, chose file, chose playing now, go slowly to info, then list, then toggle more, goto visualizations... go to top of theater view show them the bar go out of theaterview goto tools theaterview, add a new view customise it, show them there possibilities are endless. show them gforce, show them the ability to add there own images so its 100% customizable fo rthem.. i think it would really benefit you guys, and takes alot of explaing away for me. i can just say hey check out there home page they have some cool vids to show you the power of the proggy. then call me if ya have more questions, show them tagging, updating of all files, the mulitple views etc...

[glynor]

I completely agree that some video tutorials and an improved website would DRAMATICALLY help when I refer people to the application.  They don't need to be complex tutorials.  In fact, simple ones are probably better.  Something that compares it directly to iTunes would be awesome.  Something like:

"Have you ever tried to do X with iTunes?" (Showing the failure with a screencapture video.)  "With JRiver Media Center 15, this is as easy as..." (Showing success!)

A good place to start would be Auto-Importing.  This is a big feature that I use to sell MC to novice users often, and it is something they often intuitively understand why they'd need or use the feature.  Another good and simple one would be the new Movie Data From Wikipedia feature (which I'm still mesmerized by).  Show this compared to an ugly movie filename in Windows explorer and opening it in Windows Media Player.  Explain, yes, you can manually add all of that information, but who has the time?

I'd make a few of these, and put them right on the front page (maybe a rotating "featured" video on the home page, with a link to a "Tour" section where the rest of them live).  Make the case for MC on a feature-by-feature basis, vignetting the little awesome things that MC can do.

For an example of how effective these little videos can be, check out the homepage of Dropbox: https://www.dropbox.com/

[HTPC4ME]

Amen Glynor. Well said.

[Al ex]

Not that this would be a major Marketing driver, but it is one part of the puzzle:

Instead of having a community forum called "Interact" (how is that related to your product? I cant see any relevance.), I would call it "community", or "forum", or as you use it already - "support". So I would change the link itself asap:

Instead of " http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/

make it

http://community.jriver.com/
http://community.jrmediacenter.com/
http://community.mediajukebox.com/
(all links point to the same homepage of the forum)

I would also take care about the link names of the threads, for example:

Instead of having
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=57992.0
it should be named
http://community.jriver.com/change-volume-to-dlna-device.html

or instead of
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=57909.0
it could be
http://community.jriver.com/media-center-15.0.49--available-here.html


This will also help you generating some more clicks, when threads are indexed by Google and found by people.

Sub-Domain System is easily implementable, same with SEO-links - easily implementable with state of the art forum software like Kunena (http://www.kunena.com/) and of course many other forum software...

EDIT:
Just checked the homepage of the Forum-SW, you are using - there are already Mods available for the SEO-links, e.g.: http://custom.simplemachines.org/mods/index.php?mod=636 (havent tested it)... FYI

[scthom]

Lots of good stuff here, not much in specifics to add. I liked the idea of short videos and a really attractive website. Once anybody with a decent size collection starts using MC, they'll be hooked.