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[Vocalpoint]

Morning!

When auditioning customer MP3 files (mono) produced as part of my voiceover business - I have always shunned away from using MC since it always chooses to playback these files only in the left channel - whereas every other el-cheapo player - including Windows Media Player - does it correctly and puts a mono file right in the middle of a 2 channel playback (or smack in the middle of a headphone mix) which is exactly how I need to hear it.

Is there a setting I am missing - or can anyone enlighten me why MC sticks mono in the left channel?

Cheers!

VP

[JimH]

Could you send a small file to Matt at jriver and include a link to this thread?

[Matt]

If you select 2 channel output in DSP Studio > Output Format, it should do the mixing you want.

We do not do audio processing unless requested by a user.  Perhaps mono files should be a special case, but I'm not sure.

[Vocalpoint]

If you select 2 channel output in DSP Studio > Output Format, it should do the mixing you want.

We do not do audio processing unless requested by a user.  Perhaps mono files should be a special case, but I'm not sure.

To be honest - I never touched the "output" area in DSP studio....

Let me try this...will report back in a minute...

Cheers!

VP

[Vocalpoint]

Hey - that worked great.

Now - if I have selected "2 Channel" output in the DSP area - will that adversely affect anything else on down the line? Like 5.1 playback or something?

If there was a vote on mono files -  mine would be that a mono file should be played back as dual mono and come up equally in both channels - perhaps without having to adjust anything in the DSP area.

However - if this setting I have made is good to go and doesn't make me have to keep coming back into this dialog to keep switching things around based on material playing back...then I am happy.

Cheers!

VP

[MusicHawk]

I second the vote for MC playing "1 channel" recordings as 2 channel -- that's how they are played on a mono analog record or mono tape, so why treat digital recordings differently?

It's a special case, distinct from the Output Format MIXING options. If a track has only 1 channel, it's arbitrary to send it to just one of several stereo/multi-track output channels -- which one? It's not "left only" as might exist in a 2 channel recording, it's simply "this is the entire audio".

This is distinct from playing a "2 channel" recording that has 2 identical "mono" channels, which is already handled as expected.

REQUEST: New option, "Output 1 channel as 2 channel", or possibly "Output 1 channel as all channels", defaulting to enabled.

Note that 1 channel recordings are common in some situations, such as digitizing mono recordings -- why double the file size by storing 2 identical channels? In fact, when ripping mono vinyl to digital, it is very important force 1 channel (best choice) or at least force mono mixing, to remove the stereo noise that would otherwise mar the recording. It arises because a mono analog disc recording has only horizontal groove movement (L+R if it's a stereo record), but a stereo stylus also picks up vertical movement (the L-R signal used to derive the separate channels). On a mono record, vertical movement is just random noise -- crackles and other junk. Mixing to 1 channel cancels out most of it.

[Matt]

I recommend setting DSP Studio > Output Format to the number of channels you have connected to your output.  If you have a 5.1 setup, select that.  If you have a stereo setup, select that.

Then, all sources will get mixed nicely.  There should be no need for additional options (other than the available 'Use 2.1 mixing for stereo sources')

[Vocalpoint]

I recommend setting DSP Studio > Output Format to the number of channels you have connected to your output.  If you have a 5.1 setup, select that.  If you have a stereo setup, select that.

Then, all sources will get mixed nicely.  There should be no need for additional options (other than the available 'Use 2.1 mixing for stereo sources')

Coolio. I will leave it at Stereo for now.

But please consider doing something with mono playback to correctly interpret these files. If you truly want MC to maintain it's cred in audiophile circles - you cannot have it doing this to mono files. It should correctly interpret a true mono source input and playback dual mono - without the user having to fumble around in the dialogs.

I mean - if Windows Media player or Winamp or VLC or Media player classic does it..without being told....MC should as well....

Cheers!

VP

[gappie]

i just played a one channel wav file and it comes from both speakers just fine. not sure what the difference might be?

 
gab

[Matt]

If you truly want MC to maintain it's cred in audiophile circles - you cannot have it doing this to mono files.

I think you're being a little strong in your assertion.

We deliver, without modification, the input stream to the output device.  Audiophiles do not want hidden processing.

We have high quality mixing options available when a user wants them. 

Many drivers will route audio marked as KSAUDIO_SPEAKER_MONO to all speakers, but this is up to the hardware.

[Vocalpoint]

I think you're being a little strong in your assertion.

Matt - I am not disputing the power and elegance of MC...it totally rocks in the playback department - however - I do not believe you will get a single complaint from anyone attempting to play a mono MP3 file and having it come thru as dual mono so the sound is equal in both channels.

Conversely - any user who considers himself an audiophile probably will not sit by as a mono file grinds out the left channel and be happy about it. I know I don't.  I am certain I am not the only one who has found this to be - annoying.

We deliver, without modification, the input stream to the output device.  Audiophiles do not want hidden processing.

But - ironically - in order to achieve any kind of normal playback - you are now telling me - I must use "processing".

Case in point: I just tested Gappies comment about a single channel wav - and it does NOT play back correctly unless the setting under Channels is specifically "2 Channel Stereo" and Mixing is set to "JRSS V2.0 (tm).

If I change Mixing to "no mixing - unused channels silent" the playback reverts back to left channel only.

So - I have to use "surround sound" to get a simple dual mono playback?

If that's my only option - I guess I will use it. But - are normal "stereo" FLAC's, wavs etc - now being subjected to "surround sound" processing? That's not what I want....

Cheers,

VP

[Matt]

If that's my only option - I guess I will use it. But - are normal "stereo" FLAC's, wavs etc - now being subjected to "surround sound" processing? That's not what I want....

The note below 'Channels' tries to explain this:
No changes are made if the same number of channels is selected as the input.

Said another way, no processing is done unless it's changing the number of channels.

[gappie]

Case in point: I just tested Gappies comment about a single channel wav - and it does NOT play back correctly unless the setting under Channels is specifically "2 Channel Stereo" and Mixing is set to "JRSS V2.0 (tm).

now comes the interesting part. i tested it with 4 channels and no mixing.. i get the signal nicely from both front speakers.
i just set the speakers to 2 speakers and indeed.. only from the left. seems more like a bug then anything else.

 
gab

[Matt]

now comes the interesting part. i tested it with 4 channels and no mixing.. i get the signal nicely from both front speakers.
i just set the speakers to 2 speakers and indeed.. only from the left. seems more like a bug then anything else.

This is a bug that will be fixed in a coming build:
Fixed: When playing a mono file with DSP Studio > Output Format set to 'No mixing', mono could still get mixed to stereo.

[Vocalpoint]

This is a bug that will be fixed in a coming build:
Fixed: When playing a mono file with DSP Studio > Output Format set to 'No mixing', mono could still get mixed to stereo.

So the result of the fix will be? Play the file in the left channel? Or?

[gappie]

i guess so..

If that's my only option - I guess I will use it. But - are normal "stereo" FLAC's, wavs etc - now being subjected to "surround sound" processing? That's not what I want....

if you have stereo only and you set mc to 2 speakers, setting the mixing to surround sound, the normal stereo files are not mixed.
as said on the dsp screen: no changes are made if the same number of channels are selected as the input.
if you have a surround setup i would suggest making a seperate zone for your audio playback. i did that for my studio files. guess so you can make a work zone and set it up as you want.

 
gab

[Matt]

So the result of the fix will be? Play the file in the left channel? Or?

The bug reported by Gappie is a side issue and does not have a bearing on the main conversation.

With regards to the main conversation, I'm not opposed to always upmixing mono to stereo, but I don't think it's as clear cut (especially from an audiophile perspective) as you.  The option exists today to get exactly what you're asking for, so the conversation is really "should it be automatic and/or hidden."  

There will be users that do not like hidden, automatic processing.  I am one of them.

[Alex B]

Actually, Direct Sound helpfully plays mono through both stereo speakers if the audio device is a two channel device and speakers are set to "stereo" in Windows sound options. At least this is my experience on XP. I have not tested this on Vista/Win7, but the new audio engine may behave in a similar way.

Some multichannel audio devices may try to play mono through a non-existent center channel speaker even though the Windows speaker setting is "stereo speakers". This has happened to me.

The other above mentioned player programs probably let the OS decide what to do with a mono signal. If MC's ouput is set to ASIO, Kernel Streaming or WASAPI Exclusive then the Windows mixer is bypassed.

[Vocalpoint]

if you have a surround setup i would suggest making a seperate zone for your audio playback. i did that for my studio files. guess so you can make a work zone and set it up as you want.

That might work.

Basically - I use MC for audiophile playback here in the studios and I was using WMP as a quick solution to check my voiceover work. Recently tho with changes in the studios and an upgrade to Windows 7 64bit...WMP and my mono files are giving me pops and glitches constantly - especially right when I double click on a file. So I figured I may as well give MC a try in this regard.

Playback is perfect in MC with no pops or glitches...but this left channel thing has to go.

I haven't used zones but would love to learn. How do I set it up? And most importantly -  will I have to click on a bunch of things in MC prior to auditioning my workfiles? I will still be just double clicking files in Explorer for a quick listen. If working with a zone in MC means any kind of time to make adjustments in MC...I will probably pass....speed is the key when I am working....

Cheers!

VP

[Vocalpoint]

If MC's ouput is set to ASIO, Kernel Streaming or WASAPI Exclusive then the Windows mixer is bypassed.

I am using ASIO via my RME Multiface II. Perhaps that is this issue?

The best test here is to drag one of my mono files over to another workstation that is running MC with Directsound...lemme try that....

EDIT: That's it. My mono files play dual mono perfectly on another WS here - using Directsound. And with NO changes in the DSP/Channels or DSP/Mixing areas....

So it's my ASIO driver.....

VP

[gappie]

I haven't used zones but would love to learn. How do I set it up? And most importantly -  will I have to click on a bunch of things in MC prior to auditioning my workfiles? I will still be just double clicking files in Explorer for a quick listen. If working with a zone in MC means any kind of time to make adjustments in MC...I will probably pass....speed is the key when I am working....

Cheers!

VP

the good thing about having a different zone for work, is for me that its quicker. when i want to listen to music etc ill go to the zone for that, when i want to continue working on the files i was busy with i just switch zones and they are still in playing now for that zone. so it speeds things up more than anything else.. for me that is.
you start setting up a zone with right clicking on playing now (i think.. it all changed just a build or two ago) add a zone. for this new zone you have to setup the audio etc, because they are zone dependend, and they have their own dsp.

 
gab

[gappie]

So it's my ASIO driver.....

VP

no, its not your asio driver, its because you use asio. the rme drivers for asio are good. its the fact that windows is not touching the stream. as alex explained.. ill tested it also with a rme card btw, a fireface.

 
gab

[Vocalpoint]

no, its not your asio driver, its because you use asio. the rme drivers for asio are good. its the fact that windows is not touching the stream. as alex explained.. ill tested it also with a rme card btw, a fireface.

 
gab

So RME is saying - let's play this mono file in the left channel - while Windows - under the Directsound guise - is saying - let's handle this in dual mono and make it sound normal?

Also - and help me understand this - within MC - since my primary usage is to send the RME SPDIF signal to my DAC (for playback on the big rig) here's my setup:

1. Options->Audio Output->Output Mode...I have selected ASIO
2. Options->Audio Output->Output Mode Settings - I have ASIO Hammerfall DSP selected. But to esnure the signal goes to the SPDIF outputs of the Hammerfall card - I had to play trial and error with the Channel Offset field...finally typing 8 in there gets my signal going to the SPDIF output and off to the DAC.

Is it because I am using ASIO and SPDIF as the main "output" that this mono signal goes left? I cannot see anyway within the Hammerfall mixer to "dual mono-ize" a mono signal....mind you - this TotalMix console is probably the most complex mixer I have ever seen and seems like anything is possible....

Cheers,

VP

[gappie]

So RME is saying - let's play this mono file in the left channel - while Windows - under the Directsound guise - is saying - let's handle this in dual mono and make it sound normal?

that has nothing to do with rme. its the nature of asio and why people like it. when mc tells the card to use the left channel only it uses the left channel only. when mc tells windows to use the left channel only windows says: nah, you can say what you want. ill use both.

later about the rme card settings.. have to make some food now..

 
gab

[Matt]

So RME is saying - let's play this mono file in the left channel - while Windows - under the Directsound guise - is saying - let's handle this in dual mono and make it sound normal?

Windows does automatic conversions.  ASIO is hardware-direct, so bypasses this.  Hardware direct is a good thing, but means you have to dial in the conversions you want.

Is it because I am using ASIO and SPDIF as the main "output" that this mono signal goes left? I cannot see anyway within the Hammerfall mixer to "dual mono-ize" a mono signal....mind you - this TotalMix console is probably the most complex mixer I have ever seen and seems like anything is possible....

Media Center has exactly the option you want (discussed above) so there's no reason to use "the most complex mixer".

[MusicHawk]

Interesting debate.

I appreciate that there's already an MC setting to force 1 channel audio to be output on both stereo channels. But I think MC's mixing capabilities are distinct from handling the very special case of 1 channel recordings, especially when they are intermixed with 2 channel recordings in a library -- or even a library with 1, 2, and 4 channel recordings.

I don't see this as an audiophile matter, since there's no natural behavior when feeding 1 channel of audio into a 2 channel system. Where should the 1 channel go? Why should it ever go to just 1 of the stereo channels? Which channel? If there exists some special case where this is desired ("1 channel source to left channel only") that might be an MC option, not the default.

This is contrasted with "mono" that is 2 channels with identical audio, as on CDs that present pure mono source recordings. This situation already plays "normally" because the producer puts the same audio on both stereo tracks.

Another example: Musical instruments, amps, etc. I have lots of this (play in a band) and the gear that provides stereo output if two cables are connected automatically switches to mono (mixes the source channels) if only one cable is connected. All the jacks are labeled this way.

Jumping past raw cabling situations, listeners normally hear 1-channel sources as 2-channel mono (and 2-channel stereo ends up as mixed 1-channel mono, such as was designed into listening to a stereo FM or TV station on a non-stereo receiver). Of course, if MC was intended to be a MIXER of multiple audio inputs, such as for recording/producing, it would need to support complex channel routing... but it's not.

At the digital file level, 1 channel audio is 1 channel for a reason, which I believe is simply to not waste file space, rather than to create a left-channel-only listening experience. Anyone know of a case of the opposite?

I think MC's default behavior should force 1 channel audio in to 2 channel audio out, separately from the mixing setting. This would mimic what CD producers do with mono source, and as was intentionally designed into playing a mono vinyl record with a stereo cartridge, and happens when playing a mono (aka "full track") audio tape.

(Certainly there are output devices -- cards, drivers, amps -- that don't touch the sound. That's a good thing, but that's not MC's only or even primary role.)

[Matt]

I don't see this as an audiophile matter, since there's no natural behavior when feeding 1 channel of audio into a 2 channel system. Where should the 1 channel go? Why should it ever go to just 1 of the stereo channels? Which channel?

Media Center doesn't know you have a "2 channel system" unless you tell it.  That's what the current setting is for.

From a practical standpoint, maybe we should assume you have at least a 2 channel system.  

But what about the guy that wants to only use one channel on his soundcard?  Or the audiophile with a purpose-built mono system?  Or the purist who believes mono should come from one speaker?

[MusicHawk]

what about the guy that wants to only use one channel on his soundcard?  Or the audiophile with a purpose-built mono system?

Should default behavior focus on unusual situations?

There's been a lot of talk about making MC user-friendly out-of-the-box. One reasonable expectation is, behave "normally" unless configured otherwise. This can be done by allowing the current setting to control the final output per the user's environment -- defaulted to normal Stereo so most users don't have to do anything.

Provide a separate control for 1-to-2 channel mixing, defaulting to enabled for a normal experience, and let it be disabled by those with special needs; they'll find it.

(A purist who believes mono should come from one speaker will not get that from CD or radio or the majority of mono recordings that are 2 identical channels, so that solution might require wire cutters...)

[Vocalpoint]

Media Center doesn't know you have a "2 channel system" unless you tell it.  That's what the current setting is for. From a practical standpoint, maybe we should assume you have at least a 2 channel system.  

Absolutely.

But what about the guy that wants to only use one channel on his soundcard?  Or the audiophile with a purpose-built mono system?  Or the purist who believes mono should come from one speaker?

Apologies - but someone who has invested (at the 10-15-$20,000+ level) for a purpose build mono system - certainly won't be worried about MC or won't have a computer near the gear.

However - the system should/could cater to these %0.00001 of guys/gals by offering them specific preferences to over-ride the defaults for these very rare occasions.

A famous man with large ears once said: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one".

Cheers!

VP

[Mr ChriZ]

Media Center doesn't know you have a "2 channel system" unless you tell it.  That's what the current setting is for.

From a practical standpoint, maybe we should assume you have at least a 2 channel system.  

But what about the guy that wants to only use one channel on his soundcard?  Or the audiophile with a purpose-built mono system?  Or the purist who believes mono should come from one speaker?

We tell them solutions other users have come up with:

[Matt]

Alright, I buckle.

Coming in build 15.0.92:
Changed: If a user does not explicitly pick a channel output mode with DSP Studio > Output Format, mono will automatically be output as two channel mono (can still force one channel output by enabling and configuring Output Format DSP).

[MusicHawk]

THANK YOU!

[Vocalpoint]

Alright, I buckle.

Coming in build 15.0.92:
Changed: If a user does not explicitly pick a channel output mode with DSP Studio > Output Format, mono will automatically be output as two channel mono (can still force one channel output by enabling and configuring Output Format DSP).

That's why I love this software and the great team behind it!

You rock Matt....I cannot tell you how much I really appreciate the passion here and the way you guys take the suggestions...think em over...debate em and make solid choices. I know we can't win em all...but this is a good one today.

Cheers!

VP

[gappie]

Also - and help me understand this - within MC - since my primary usage is to send the RME SPDIF signal to my DAC (for playback on the big rig) here's my setup:

1. Options->Audio Output->Output Mode...I have selected ASIO
2. Options->Audio Output->Output Mode Settings - I have ASIO Hammerfall DSP selected. But to esnure the signal goes to the SPDIF outputs of the Hammerfall card - I had to play trial and error with the Channel Offset field...finally typing 8 in there gets my signal going to the SPDIF output and off to the DAC.

Is it because I am using ASIO and SPDIF as the main "output" that this mono signal goes left? I cannot see anyway within the Hammerfall mixer to "dual mono-ize" a mono signal....mind you - this TotalMix console is probably the most complex mixer I have ever seen and seems like anything is possible....

Cheers,

VP

the first 8 channels are for analogue, then comes spdif. an other option, and that is how i did it, since i use analogue outputs 5-8, is setting the channel ofset to 0 and use total mix to route it to where i want (turn on submix under view in totalmix). but i have a zone for my headphone and send it to ofset 4, and route it to where i need it. with total mix you can save up to 8 routing setups. withthis it would be easy to just make a setup for a mono signal. i use totalmix together with a midi controller so i dont have to open total mix, just push a button besides my monitor to switch.
but... if you dont need that, just do as matt says, use mc for getting your signal where you want, it does that very well.

 
gab

ps.. i love totalmix. when you take some time with it, it is very powerfull, and less overwhelming. but that is only when you need it. otherwise just leave it.