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[Matt]

We're thinking about ways to simplify configuring Media Center for the best audio quality.  Currently, the program defaults to the most compatible audio output: Direct Sound.  This means it will just work for most all users, but it also means it doesn't provide the best quality without configuration.

One solution is to write a configuration step-by-step in the wiki and explain choices like ASIO, WASAPI, etc..  The problem with this is that many people won't find it and/or read it.

Another solution is to make the program defaults designed for quality instead of compatibility.  The drawback will be increased support since there are some caveats with hardware direct sound output, like not being able to play sound in other programs if the hardware is locked.

Another solution is some sort of configuration wizard when first playing audio.  Personally, I don't like software that asks me a lot of questions, especially when I'm first trying it.

One specific idea we had to remove the need to configure DSP Studio > Output Format after picking WASAPI exclusive was to make, by default, the 'Bitdepth' use the highest supported by the hardware and the 'Samplerate' adjust as necessary if the card couldn't natively support the input sample rate.  This makes things "just work" but also means the program could be doing processing unless you told it not to, which is the opposite of how I like things.

Any other suggestions?  Thanks for any advice.

[newsposter]

being able to export/import settings would be nice.

let users share their personal 'optimal' DSP setups.  kind of a 'try this, it works well for me' deal.

gonna need some granularity to the setups, but it might be do-able.

[gappie]

This makes things "just work" but also means the program could be doing processing unless you told it not to

but one way or an other it will be always something like that. you could also popup a window with tips on every start up... i always have them disabled as quick as i can.
i think the direct sound start is not bad at all. i would preferr that with any audio program i instal, above that it goes trying to claim some channels just because i was trying it out, and, like in a recent thread, it might claim outputs that have no speakers (when choosing asio). but maybe this could give some use to the start page, just the important things on there. how to import the media you want and how to set up mc for high quality playback...

 
gab

ps: i like elves, but i hate wizards

[Supersnake]

My recent experience this week indicated the importance and practicality for what you are proposing.

Wishing to learn all I could about Media Center's Audio Output settings, I read every forum post that I could
locate to learn what each output represented and how they would affect sound quality. That was a lengthy procedure.

There is currently no MC Wiki entry for "Audio Output".  Had there been a configuration step-by-step along with an explanation of the attributes and implications of each audio output I would have gladly embraced the Wiki.

You presented an interesting hypothesis:
One solution is to write a configuration step-by-step in the wiki and explain choices like ASIO, WASAPI, etc.. 
The problem with this is that many people won't find it and/or read it.   

One way to address that issue would be to prominently display a direct access to the Wiki from within 
Options / Audio Output.  Please see screenshot: "Obtain Audio Output Help"

 

[dsuttle]

The Support forum is awesome. I think its a great idea. One thing - Has JR considered adding a good ole' fashion User Manual in the 'Tools' or 'Help' menus?
Most hardware instruction comes with a manual. JR is a product and needs to be operated just like all devices. You could add in a 'Manual' tab in the 'Tools' dropdown menu. The 'Manual' tab could have sub manuals for different aspects of MC configuration and operation. The info would be there in an organized fashion and written by JR Pros. (No Offense to any active JR Forum individuals out there). Maybe this exsists already?

[JimH]

The Support forum is awesome. I think its a great idea. One thing - Has JR considered adding a good ole' fashion User Manual in the 'Tools' or 'Help' menus?
Most hardware instruction comes with a manual. JR is a product and needs to be operated just like all devices. You could add in a 'Manual' tab in the 'Tools' dropdown menu. The 'Manual' tab could have sub manuals for different aspects of MC configuration and operation. The info would be there in an organized fashion and written by JR Pros. (No Offense to any active JR Forum individuals out there). Maybe this exsists already?

Thanks for the suggestion.  Have you found our wiki?

[BradC]

Is the compilation of optimal settings for different sound cards and then providing a drop down box to select your sound card at all feasible?

[Matt]

One simple change we're going to make is to offer to automatically configure DSP Studio > Output Format to 24-bit when we fail to play a file and see that 24-bit output would have worked.  We might do something similar for high sample rates, since a lot of hardware caps at 96 KHz in hardware direct modes.

[Gl3nn]

Mouse flyover help with detailed descriptions in the options menus would be nice.

[Alex B]

You shoudn't touch the default format. IMHO, the default must follow the Windows standard and let the Windows audio engine do its tricks as designed.

You could improve the wiki documentation and, as suggested, add a tooltip and an easily accessible link to the wiki page.

In general the distortions that are caused by the Windows resampler are not as bad as some audiophiles believe. It is a fast resampler because it has to be (it must work properly in all situations and on all hardware), but still the additional distortion it produces is inaudible in usual listening situations. I have not measured the XP and Vista/Windows 7 resamplers, but I'd guess that the distortions would be below the noise floor of typical recordings.

Some old sound cards have HW resamplers that are of rather low quality and if their driver reports that 44.1 kHz is possible then the resampler in the Windows audio engine may be bypassed and low quality HW resamping from 44.1 KHz to 48 kHz may happen. However, I don't think the recent integrated sound devices or entry level sound cards have HW resamplers because Windows can handle it better. The better sound devices should natively support 44.1 kHz and the usual higher sample rates without resampling.

Regarding the bit depth, it would be good to add an option for high quality dithering with noise shaping for the 16-bit mode.

24-bit is a no-brainer. It should be used if the device supports it and it does not need dithering (the quantization errors are very small and unlikely to be audible in any circumstances).

[rossp]

Wizards are good, if you don't force them on the user. Keep the defaults as is and then give the user the option of running an 'advanced sound setup wizard' from an option in the audio settings.

Ross

[Arbiter]

A user friendly dialog/wizard would be my choice. I am not an audiophile, far far from that! That means that my knowledge in all those audio "technical terms" like the differences between Directsound (hey did you know that since windows vista that's just emulated and no longer hardware driven?), Wasapi or ASIO, is very limited. What i would love to see, upon the first time a user starts MC after the installation, would be a maybe "Smart Wizard" Offering some preset profiles eg. Compatibility Preset, which would use directsound, and a small description of it like "This will use the most compatible settings for your system using Directsound for output at the expense of Audio Quality".


In any case, people should not rely just on configuration anyway. Sound is analog and based on physics after all and people perceive sound differently so it should be tweaked accordingly:P

[Vincent Kars]

configuring Media Center for the best audio quality

That are sentences I love to read.

WASAPI indeed yields a better sound quality at the expense of comfort.
Recently I had a track that failed to play in WASAPI, it was in mono.

I don't like programs to do all kind of under water activities.
I like to know what is going on.
A dialog like this appeals to me


It allows you to test and to exclude certain options.
In case of USB-audio this can be refined as the enumeration allows the app to fill in all possible options.
In case of SPDIF this is not possible.

I think MC should play all audio at its native sample rate.
If this fails, I prefer a dialog.
It should tell me the reason why it can't be played
It should offer the options
-to convert
-to stop
-to remember my choice
This solves the 'control' issue

Maybe a profile might help e.g.
Benchmark DAC 1 - SPDIF
Benchmark DAC 1 - USB
Allowing you to switch rapidly between configurations and/or audio endpoints.

Documentation.
I'm afraid indeed people don't read the Wiki and keeping it up to date is probably not the highest priority at JR.
In MC15 there are couple of dialogs already presenting a help text/explanation as a integral part of the dialog.
You might consider to expand this.
I prefer a collapsible help text as the dialogs become sometimes pretty big.

[Supersnake]

I'm afraid indeed people don't read the Wiki and keeping it up to date is probably not the highest priority at JR.

Vincent proposed some excellent suggestions and provided us with a visual example.  However, I am concerned that the Wiki be maintained. The original poster wrote that  "... many people won't find it and/or read it" which is not an indictment for discontinuing the (useful) Wiki.  I imagine that a poll could put the speculation to rest.  I for one have relied on the Wiki more than once and will continue to do so.  For myself and others the Wiki is a useful resource and wish it to be maintained.

 

[Matt]

We did a little work on the wiki page that the 'Help' button on Options > Audio links to.

And here's a little description of audio output modes:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes

[JustinChase]

Matt, I think defaulting to the best quality is probably the best option, but you will invariably cause new users to not "just work", which is obviously bad.

You also indicate that MC might be able to "know" why playback failed, and adjust itself to compensate.  I don't know how omnipotent you can be, but starting at best quality, and "auto-adjusting" down as failures happen seems like a good option.

if not, a small, fast wizard might be best.  playback failed, try this... try this... try this...

or perhaps failure messages with usable content and links on how to correct would be nice.  Instead of "media failed to play" with an OKAY button, it could tell us it failed to play because there was an error in the sound card's ability to read/process the selected bitrate of 96k, I suggest you change your soundcard settings to allow this higher rate, or lower the output of Media Center, both of which might be links that take you right to the process to adjust; kind of like windows does in it's troubleshooter.

The screenshots of how Realtek handles this; by presenting options you can try and just uncheck what didn't work might help also.

[zxsix]

Wizards are good, if you don't force them on the user. Keep the defaults as is and then give the user the option of running an 'advanced sound setup wizard' from an option in the audio settings.

Ross

I'm with this guy.

[Supersnake]

We did a little work on the wiki page that the 'Help' button on Options > Audio links to.

And here's a little description of audio output modes:
http://wiki.jrmediacenter.com/index.php/Audio_Output_Modes

   Merely a few hours ago it was suggested that the Wiki contain a description of audio output modes.
Talk about a fast response!  The newly created Wiki entry is simple and clear.  Nice use of the Help button to get to it too.

[)p(]

You shoudn't touch the default format. IMHO, the default must follow the Windows standard and let the Windows audio engine do its tricks as designed.

I agree. Why take the chance that when users are new to the program they will get frustrated about sound issues before they had a good taste of it. Unless audiophiles are your main target market I would choose compatibly above quality as the default. Especially because I suspect most of your users wont hear a big difference in quality anyway. Yes wasapi etc is better but really the current vista / w7 dx mixer isnt that bad at all.

[Vincent Kars]

Obvious this is not about functionality only but also about how to present it.

Interface design is a pretty difficult one.
It must be clear, intuitive, etc but it must also fit on the screen.
Different user have different tastes, you can’t win then all.
It is difficult ands extremely hard to find the right compromise.
With this in mind,  some thoughts  and inevitably my personal preferences on the interface



Style 1:
This I call a classic GUI, click on something and it will do something.
If you want to know what and how, you need the Help



Style 2A:
This is a dubious one, it is not really a Help but a reminder to the user that something has changed. But it is a good  example  how to integrate functionality and information.


Style2B:
I would prefer the Help to be collapsible, one day you know and don’t need this info anymore. Some arrow on the right to collapse/expand will do


Style 3:
The DNLA part of this dialog is one of my favorites.
It could have been a label only (DLNA server) but the description tells you exactly what it does. A well chosen compromise.


Style 4:
Here I get mixed feelings.
Yes everything is explained well but it starts to become a kind of tutorial and cobbles up a hell of a lot of space. A bit to much.
This one should profit by a dialogue with a collapsible help sidebar on the right, a bit like style 2B

[Listener]

I agree. Why take the chance that when users are new to the program they will get frustrated about sound issues before they had a good taste of it. Unless audiophiles are your main target market I would choose compatibly above quality as the default. Especially because I suspect most of your users wont hear a big difference in quality anyway. Yes wasapi etc is better but really the current vista / w7 dx mixer isnt that bad at all.

I completely agree. with Alex B and )p(.  When a new user installs MC 15 and starts it up, he should be able to play a file successful in playing audio.  If he can't, he may just write off MC as a failure and g0o on to another music player. There are more non-audiophiles and moderate audiophiles than audiophiles.  Why risk turning the larger market off in hopes of wooing a smaller market of hardcore audiophiles?

I don't think that most users would be able to fill out the dialog box Vincent proposed for specifying sample rates and sample sizes or for modifying those settings.  Most new users don't know beans about their hardware and don't even know how to find out what soundcard or onboard sound they are using.  researching what a particular Realtek chip can do is even less feasible for most people.

I said more in an email to Jim.

Bill

[JustinChase]

I completely agree. with Alex B and )p(.  When a new user installs MC 15 and starts it up, he should be able to play a file successful in playing audio.  If he can't, he may just write off MC as a failure and g0o on to another music player. There are more non-audiophiles and moderate audiophiles than audiophiles.  Why risk turning the larger market off in hopes of wooing a smaller market of hardcore audiophiles?

I don't think that most users would be able to fill out the dialog box Vincent proposed for specifying sample rates and sample sizes or for modifying those settings.  Most new users don't know beans about their hardware and don't even know how to find out what soundcard or onboard sound they are using.  researching what a particular Realtek chip can do is even less feasible for most people.

I said more in an email to Jim.

Bill

I started a (long  ) thread about this here, with suggestions...

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59100.0

[bunglemebaby]

FWIW, I concur with Vincent's general thoughts on help and presenting useful information. As he alluded to in his "Style 4" having context sensitive information displayed (on the RHS or elsewhere) would be useful both for the Audio config and across the options in general. There are some other sections in there that are a bit hairy before you've scoured the forums for info...

But to the question directly posed by Matt...
It seems like a bad idea to have a default config that does anything other than "just work". The average user will want it to just work, for sure. Your average audiophile would probably prefer to have optimal audio out of the box, but your average audiophile is used to doing some work to achieve optimal audio. Have you ever met an audiophile that didn't enjoy at least a bit of tinkering? Off course too much tinkering can lead to evil thoughts...

...so offering something to audiophiles that is easier than other alternatives would still be a good thing. Something along the lines of an "audiophile preset" that users could just select and implement quickly from the options menu could seem like a blessing to many audiophile users. This preset would presumably just be whatever you would default to by going with the "default to optimal audio" route. Other presets might be useful too, I suppose (semi-optimal anyone?).

-JB

[HiFiTubes]

FWIW, I concur with Vincent's general thoughts on help and presenting useful information. As he alluded to in his "Style 4" having context sensitive information displayed (on the RHS or elsewhere) would be useful both for the Audio config and across the options in general. There are some other sections in there that are a bit hairy before you've scoured the forums for info...

But to the question directly posed by Matt...
It seems like a bad idea to have a default config that does anything other than "just work". The average user will want it to just work, for sure. Your average audiophile would probably prefer to have optimal audio out of the box, but your average audiophile is used to doing some work to achieve optimal audio. Have you ever met an audiophile that didn't enjoy at least a bit of tinkering? Off course too much tinkering can lead to evil thoughts...

...so offering something to audiophiles that is easier than other alternatives would still be a good thing. Something along the lines of an "audiophile preset" that users could just select and implement quickly from the options menu could seem like a blessing to many audiophile users. This preset would presumably just be whatever you would default to by going with the "default to optimal audio" route. Other presets might be useful too, I suppose (semi-optimal anyone?).

-JB

Well stated. Keep it simple and let the tweakers tweak. It would be hip to have preset database which users could share and use for common hardware (Default, Wavelength Proton, Maverick DAC, Audigy ZS, Lynx AES16, Ayre, etc.)

[Ataylor]

I'm new to JRiver and now just setting it up with a high end Ayre QB 9 DAC that can handle 24 bit up to 192k (though I'm told USB 2 won't go that high until a new driver is available).

Looking for any and all tips on the best way to setup JRiver Media Center for the best sound possible. I'm on a high powered Windows 7 64 bit workstation with all my muisc ripped from CD

to lossless WAV.  Also downloading 24 / 96 Sound files to see how the higher resolution sound works.

Reading a ton and finding some great things on the forum but wondering if anyone has collected all the best settings into a single doc?

Thanks!!

Arleigh

[Listener]

I'm new to JRiver and now just setting it up with a high end Ayre QB 9 DAC that can handle 24 bit up to 192k (though I'm told USB 2 won't go that high until a new driver is available).

Looking for any and all tips on the best way to setup JRiver Media Center for the best sound possible. I'm on a high powered Windows 7 64 bit workstation with all my muisc ripped from CD

to lossless WAV.  Also downloading 24 / 96 Sound files to see how the higher resolution sound works.

Reading a ton and finding some great things on the forum but wondering if anyone has collected all the best settings into a single doc?

Look on the Ayre website as well as on this forum.

Bill

[Vincent Kars]

I'm new to JRiver and now just setting it up with a high end Ayre QB 9 DAC that can handle 24 bit up to 192k (though I'm told USB 2 won't go that high until a new driver is available).

Ayre uses Streamlength, the asynchronous USB implementation by Gordon Rankin.
Gordon has a USB Audio class 2 driver available on his website.
This should allow for 24 - 176/192 as well.
The question is if the QB9 firmware supports Class 2 as well.
http://usbdacs.com/hs24192/hs24192.html

If you are running Win7, WASAPI is probably your best bet.
All you need to do is tell MC to open the QB9 for exclusive access and set the bit depth to 24.
A couple of screen shots at the bottom of this page: http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/MC14/MC_Wasapi.htm

[Ataylor]

HI Vincent...just found got the file and tried to instlal it but it fails on the last step where it asks to Please connect the device you want to install and turn it on.

For some reason it's not seeing the Ayre so it wont' complete the install. What's weird is the Ayre is working and the native sound drive in Windows 7 even renamed itself to Ayre DAC.

There is no real splecific drivers for the Ayre as it didn't come with any software to install.

Not sure what I do now?  any suggestions?

Thanks again!

Arleigh

[HiFiTubes]

I'm new to JRiver and now just setting it up with a high end Ayre QB 9 DAC that can handle 24 bit up to 192k (though I'm told USB 2 won't go that high until a new driver is available).

Looking for any and all tips on the best way to setup JRiver Media Center for the best sound possible. I'm on a high powered Windows 7 64 bit workstation with all my muisc ripped from CD

to lossless WAV.  Also downloading 24 / 96 Sound files to see how the higher resolution sound works.

Reading a ton and finding some great things on the forum but wondering if anyone has collected all the best settings into a single doc?

Thanks!!

Arleigh

These are local files? Have you tried encoding one of your .wav files to .flac and attempting playback?

Maybe you are testing with .bwf without knowing.

Try 24/96 flac sample here.