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[Wile E. One]

I'm confused. I recently upgraded from MJ 7.2 to 8.0, and now I'm having problems updating the tag information on my MP3s. Specifically, MJ has taken to deleting some of the files instead of updating the tag info (but of course doesn't tell me it has just deleted a bunch of files). The interesting part is that it replaces the deleted mp3 with a 128 byte file of "who knows what", that has the same name. But it doesn't do this with all the files I try to update, just some of them.

I've also noticed that it does strange things to some of the mp3s it doesn't delete too. Sometimes it makes the file larger (sometimes a little bigger...and sometimes a lot... like a couple megabytes). Other times, it makes the file smaller (in the same varying way). And....on a rare occasion... it makes the updated file the same size.

I can't figure out why this is happening... or why it takes different actions at different times. For now, I've disabled tag updating in the options. But this isn't a real answer, as it isn't updating the tags and also has that annoying "Media Jukebox failed to update the tag information for the edited file" popup every time I edit a field.

Here's my system info:

Media Jukebox  8.0.293
Install Path: E:\Program Files\J River\Media Jukebox\

CPU: AMD Athlon 1409 MHz MMX
Memory: Total - 523 MB, Free - 230 MB
OS: Microsoft Windows 2000  Workstation 5.0 Service Pack 2 (Build 2195)

Internet Explorer: 6.0.2600.0000
ComCtl32.dll: 5.50.4704.1100
Shlwapi.dll: 6.00.2600.0000
Shell32.dll: 5.00.3502.4718
wnaspi32.dll: N/A


Does anyone have any ideas as to what's going on? I'm stumped.

Thanks,

Wile

[Sudadon]

I've had the same problem and have posted it a couple of times, but have not been able to attract enough attention to solve the problem.  Not many people seem to be experiencing the same problem for it to be a real issue.  In my case, I use the Norton Unerase to recover the file, but it's really a big hassle!

[Matt]

Oh boy, that's no good.

We'll dig through the code with a fine-tooth comb on Monday.  Is there anything in particular that seems to trigger it?  Is the file playing while it happens?

About the fluctuating size, a little change is normal because MJ could be adding an ID3v2 tag. (check out "Plugin Manager -> Input -> MP3 -> Configure" to fine tune how that works)

Thanks for the info and your patience.

-Matt
JRiver, Inc.

[Sudadon]

I haven't been able to determine what triggers the loss of files.  It has happened both while playing and not playing the file in question.  Sometimes you get the message "failed to update file" and sometimes you don't.  I does seem to occur more frequently when my computer is running short on memory (256MB).  What I find strange is that the file is deleted beyond being dumped in the recycle bin.  It would really be nice if this problem goes away.  Makes me nervous whenever I rename files.

[wile]

At least I know now that I'm not crazy. I too use Norton to recover the file, but it's scary when I go in there and find a few hundred megs of files.

In my case, I haven't found that it deletes the files while they are playing.... just when they are not. But, I don't usually work on the file that's playing... so I may have just been lucky in that respect so far.

I have though, found that it happens mostly when tagging multiple files at once (which is one of the things I like most about this program).

Anyways... thanks for the replies...and I look forward to hearing what you find during the hunt on Monday.

Wile

[Matt]

> I too use Norton to recover the file

Is there any chance this could be part of the problem?  It seems strange that both people (and the only to date) that have reported this problem are running Norton system stuff.

Just a thought.  Either way, we'll dig through the code and let you know.

Thanks again.

-Matt
JRiver, Inc.

[Sudadon]

Any development re. this matter?

[KingSparta]

By the way I Use Norton (I Do Not Have It Running, But Only When I Want It). And Have Had No Problems With Missing Files.

There Was A Problem In MJ And I Don't Know If It Is Fixed When Renaming\Moving MP3 Files That If There Was Two Files And You Aborted the Overwrite File. MJ Would Take The Dupe File And Remove It From the File Listing.

A Import Would Recover It.

[Sudadon]

What happens is that the lost mp3 file is not entirely removed.  About 15kb of the file, not playable, is left and the track is recognized by MJ in its original form.  Re-importing, therefore, will not solve the problem.

[Wile]

I've noticed significant improvements since 8.0.293. I'm now using 315 (I haven't gotten around to updating to 318 yet), and things are a lot better.

I still have Norton running, but MJ "almost never" deletes my files any more... many of them the same files that it did delete the first time around. However, it still does get rid of one here and there, so I am very careful when I am updating tags. I keep a Window's Explorer window open to the directory I'm tagging so that I can see if one of the files becomes tiny after tagging it (like Sudadon said, it writes a tiny non-playable file). If this happens, then I use Norton to recover it.

A couple of the files it has deleted since the upgrades have only had ID3v1 tags, and I thought this might have something to do with it... but I later noticed that it did it to a couple files with ID3v2 tags as well... which would seem to disprove the first theory.

I checked to see if the files were read only.... they were not. They were not in use by any program. They were not currently playing. I wasn't doing anything odd like cancelling the process. Just putting in the appropriate artist, or updating the name of the song.

I should note that I've never had any problem renaming/moving the actual file... just the tags.

All in all... the whole tagging problem is much improved... but still a pain because I have to keep an eye on every file I ever update... just in case.

I have used many music players/jukeboxes, but none compare to MJ. This annoyance won't make me stop using MJ... but it would be REALLY nice if I didn't have to worry about it deleting things.

That's my two-bits.

But Sudadon, have things improved much for you? or not at all?

[Sudadon]

It appears that less files are being deleted after updating to 318.  I'm doing very much the same thing--keeping an eye on deleted files.  I've also been monitoring the process to identify the cause of the problem but have not been able to pinpoint a common factor that causes the files to become unplayable.  What I find really curious is that only a fraction of MJ users is experiencing this problem.

[graham131]

Hi there.  I too have had this problem.  I am not sure wether it is still occuring but i do still have the 128 Byte files if you would like some of them emailed to you for analysis?

Most of them i have had to re-rip but some i am waiting to get again, hence the reason i have the 128 byte files left.

The time i notice the problem is this.

Import media - look at number of files failed to import.  Click details then you get a list of files - these then correspond to the 128 byte files.

Anyway let me know and I will email some to you.

For example I lost most of my Clash songs!

Cheers

Graham

[Wile]

Graham,

I judge by the fact that you lost most of your clash songs that you are not running Norton unerase or protected recycle bin? Because Sudadon and I both use Norton, there was some thought that the problem might be related to it. But if you are not running Norton and you are having the same problem (which it definately sounds like you are), it would seem to cover that off as a possible cause.


JRiver team,

Does anyone there have any ideas as to what might be causing this? A response would be appreciated.

[sekim]

Have any of you used the Library back up before doing any tag editing? You maybe should. Save your library, edit, see if all goes well, save it again. If you run into a problem with MJ trying to zorch your files you may be able to clear the library and restore the last good one. I can't believe that it would erase the files from the drive, but...stuff happens.

Anyway, this could be something to try and see if it works. Just a guess.

For got to ask : How are you editing the tags? With file properties or in place editing? May be a clue for J River.

[Sudadon]

If Norton is not causing it, could it be related to shortage of memory in some way?  My configuration is Pentium II 500MHz, 256MB memory and Win 2k.
However, it appears that this problem has not occurred so far after upgrading MJ to 8.0.318.

[Pinner]

I lost many Gb of files some time ago. It was caused by updating many tags simultaneously. I did post the problem, but the issue as it relates to MJ was not acknowledged, NTFS was blamed instead!
Backing up the database only reminds you of all the files that MJ lost.

I eventually bought 2 120Gb drives, and mirror one of them on a different PC across a network. Even then, it has highlighted a problem that tags are not being written.

After losing all those files, I started to  rip all of my albums again from scratch, and re-import them into MJ (which I stil use despite the above). What I have notice is that I lost about 90% of mu files, but there was always at least one, and sometime three, files from each album remaining.

I am still losing the occasional file (8.0.302)

[graham131]

Update:

I am NOT using Norton's

I have 1.5Gb RAM so therefore Memory should not be an issue.

I was renaming a lot of tracks at the same time to fit with the storage convention i wanted to use.

Library was backup before (and after) to different filenames, however restoring a library will not resolve the issue because MJ has actually deleted the file and replaced it with a 128Kb file that only contains tag info.

On one occasion this also happened to me, but i was able to determine the cause.  I ran out of disk space, doh!

Cheers Graham

PS - Q for anyone, i am running MJ on another PC in my house, which is not connected to the internet.  It keeps asking for the ASPI drivers to be downloaded whenever i attempt to burn a CD (do you want to automatically download and connect now etc).  Can i download these seperately on my other PC, do you have an FTP location?

Many thanks and keep up the good work!

[KingSparta]

graham131

>> It keeps asking for the ASPI drivers to be downloaded whenever
>> i attempt to burn a CD (do you want to automatically download
>> and connect now etc). Can i download these seperately on my
>> other PC, do you have an FTP location?
Look above under help, CD Burning

Also

ASPI Link
http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/support/drivers_by_product.html?cat=%2fProduct%2fASPI-4.70&prodkey=ASPI-4.70#Microsoft%20Windows%202000

[graham131]

Thanks KingSparta, you are an angel (ok just pretend- it could be an angel) - Sorted my ASPI issue!


THanks

[Wile]

It doesn't seem to matter how the tagging is done. Using either in-place tagging, or the file properties dialogue, can result in mp3s being deleted.

[KingSparta]

KingSparta >>>---> <---<<< KingSparta

[JimH]

Wile,
Have you tried today's build?  323.  It uses a newer ID3V2 tag library that may fix the problem.

[Wile]

JimH,

Indeed, the new build seems to have done the trick. I tagged about 2000 mp3s today... and not a single one got eaten.

All seems good for me in MJ world again. I am grateful.

[Influxor]

i really hope the new build fixes this...   i found a large number of my library had been eaten rescently... and i am not happy at all about it... that is a major , major flaw that i paid for.  so im gonna download the new build now...

[JimH]

The problem was in the ID3v2 tag library.  This is not our code.

There are a lot of problems with ID3v2.

[matty]

>The problem was in the ID3v2 tag library. This is not our code

I would really like to understand this.
If we buy a car and it crashes in a manner to cause personal and property damage, we would ask the seller of the car to take responsiblity.

Now I know you use Windows, but we purchase Windows directly from Microsoft seller.  The advantage of a integrated jukebox is a single point of contact for the software that you provide.  You should identify any 3rd party software you are merely passing along.  Maybe a URL for the web site for support.

You say you fixed the problem? I would like to understand this.  Did you replace the 3rd party code with your own?  Who exactly provided the tag library code?  Is there a URL.  Did you merely make calls to the 3rd party code in a 'better' manner?

If you are not going to be a single point of contact, it might be better for me to acquire separate best of breed products for ripping, encoding, tagging, playing, etc?  I do not want to be rude, but I would like to understand this?

[KingSparta]

matty

Does It Work?

I Have Noticed That Normaly Most Software Companies Do Not Talk About How And What Goes Into There Software, J River Included. However Some Of Them Are Listed Under "Help, About"

[JimH]

matty,
ID3v2 is not our standard.  It is one proposed by one group and implemented by another.  Here's a starting point:

http://www.id3.org/

I don't think you're being rude, but I do think you're being slightly unrealistic.  We're about 10 people building MJ.  It's a big world out there.  We're doing the best we can.  We don't have unlimited resources.  JRiver has never had outside investment.

If you think you can find a better solution, I'm sure you will jump at the opportunity.

Jim