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Author Topic: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)  (Read 3040 times)

pcstockton

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Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« on: December 01, 2010, 07:48:12 pm »

Ive looked around with the search function and cannot find anything but references to smart playlists.

What I would like to do is create a playlist with the entire library, then be able to play back in a random fashion.  But when random is turned off it continues to play as it would normally.

With shuffle it creates a shuffled playlist.  I dont want the order shuffled, I want the playback random.

I like to throw everything on random until something tickles my fancy, then turn random off and continue in order from where it is.

Is this possible?  I use theater view exclusively for what that is worth.

thanks in advance,
Patrick
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rick.ca

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2010, 12:18:15 am »

Quote
Is this possible?  I use theater view exclusively for what that is worth.

I don't know, but you may be interested in this alternative.
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glynor

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2010, 10:21:47 am »

You can enable/disable Shuffle Mode using the button in Standard View or via the Ctrl + Shift + R keyboard shortcut.

This does actually shuffle the playing now list, though, so there is no way to "disable" it once playback has started and have playback continue unshuffled from that moment on.  So, if you have Shuffle Mode ON, and you play a file, it will play randomly using all of the files within that View.  However, when you turn Shuffle mode OFF, you have to effectively double-click on a new file in your View to create a new in-order playing now list to resume "ordered playback".

That's because of how Playing Now works.  You could, of course, simply sort the Playing Now list and update the order.
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pcstockton

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2010, 03:59:40 pm »

Thanks much for the help....

That is too bad....  Double clicking doesn't do anything in Theater View but bring up the info for the track.

What Media Player doesn't have random playback?  I am actually a little bummed and surprised that it will only shuffle the playlist and play in order, rather than shuffling the playback order and keeping the playlist intact.

I sure wish I knew this before buying.  It is my own fault for not making sure that my crucial needs were met.  I just didnt think any media player would only shuffle the order of the playlists.  Unfortunately I will have to continue to use my other player for critical listening.

While I am griping.....  It is also strange that the "Cursor Does Not Follow Playback" in standard view.  How are you supposed to find where you are in a playback list.  Is there a "Jump To Track Now Playing"?

Sexy looking Media Player though....  I was using it as my "shell" and accessing everything through it.  Bummer......

To anyone wanting random playback JMRC apparently does not do it.   VERY strange.

-Patrick
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glynor

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2010, 04:37:57 pm »

I don't understand.  If Shuffle Mode is enabled, it works even if you play those files via Theater View.  There just isn't a "switch" for it in Theater View (but they keyboard shortcut works, and you can easily assign it to a button on your remote).

It works fine.  I'm not sure what your problem is...  I'd say that MC handles shuffled playback MUCH BETTER THAN pretty much any other media player I've ever used.  Playing Now is NOT a Playlist in the sense that you mean.  Playing Now is THE list that MC will be playing, in the precise order that it will play the files.  If you want to re-order playback on the fly, you simply re-order Playing Now.

But if you want to shuffle play a playlist, you simply turn on Shuffle Mode and then play a file from the playlist or view.  What is wrong with that?

While I am griping.....  It is also strange that the "Cursor Does Not Follow Playback" in standard view.  How are you supposed to find where you are in a playback list.  Is there a "Jump To Track Now Playing"?

In Playing Now, the list will always show the currently playing track if you navigate away from it and then back to it.  I think there is some key you can press to jump right to it as well, but I can't remember what it is...
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rick.ca

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2010, 06:36:33 pm »

While I am griping...

Perhaps you should continue what you've been doing—asking questions and learning how MC is vastly superior other media players in just about every respect. It seems you didn't check out the link I provided. That wasn't offered as a solution to your problem, but as a mere illustration of the unlimited number of ways you might configure the program for playback. The problem isn't that the program doesn't do "random playback." It's that it goes so far beyond that you've failed to recognize it's capabilities.
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JimH

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2010, 07:10:00 pm »

It does play randomly.  It's not clear why you think it won't.
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Matt

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2010, 07:34:05 pm »

There are two ways to do random playback:

1) Show an ordered list, and move the playback position randomly

2) Show a shuffled list, and move the playback position sequentially

There are advantages to each.  #1 allows unshuffling and #2 allows tuning a shuffle.

We use #2, and have for at least 10 years.

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pcstockton

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2010, 08:30:07 pm »

Firstly thanks everyone for continuing to help me despite my frustrations.  I will try to respond to each of your questions.

Glynor,
I dont understand the hotkey in Theater View.  If I select in Artists, "Play All>Shuffle All" it creates a shuffled list.  If I click on "List" i see it.  CRTL+SHIFT+R does what then?  It doesn't unscramble the list.  And no matter how many times I press it it continues down that shuffled list.

I guess I am not being clear.  I dont want anything shuffled.  I want the list/library to remain in order.  So if you were listening to one album, the tracks would remain in order so if you turned random off it would continue from the current song through to the end of the album.  I guess I cant explain it very well.



Rick,
I did click on the link, thanks for the help.  And I went through the links in that post to a third. I read everything there.  I do understand MC being highly customizable which is why I posted the question.  I figured I was missing something.  I have created many very nice UI Columns configs in Foobar and have a decent grasp of some elements of the text formatting.  But MC simply goes over my head.

Jim,
It does not play randomly, it just randomizes a list. Unless I am still misunderstanding it only plays in order.


Matt,
EXACTLY!!!!  But I would say one is "random" playback and the latter "shuffle" playback.  Is there a way to achieve #1 so you can turn it on an off as desired? It seems like a fairly standard media player feature.  Some other players do both.


For the record, "shuffle all" works fine in Theater View.  But say I am playing in "Shuffle All Artists" and a song from "John Zorn - The Gift" comes on and I decide that I would like to listen to that album, I cannot turn of "Shuffle" and have it continue through the album.  That's what random is great for.  For me it is indispensable.  I am surprised no one has ever asked for it.

What is "tuning a shuffle".... and in case it was missed above.  Can I achieve #1 in your player?

Thanks,
Patrick


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rick.ca

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2010, 12:03:08 am »

Quote
But say I am playing in "Shuffle All Artists" and a song from "John Zorn - The Gift" comes on and I decide that I would like to listen to that album, I cannot turn of "Shuffle" and have it continue through the album.

If this is what's important to you, forget about shuffle play and follow the suggestion in my linked post. While "John Zorn - The Gift" is playing, it will provide you with a view for all John Zorn's works, another for The Gift and another for a random selection of similar (however you care to define that) tracks. Rather than only being able to continue on with an album from a random entry point, the Album view will give you the means to play the entire album or any part of it. If returning to the original PN list is important, you can save it and recall it.
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glynor

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2010, 11:37:11 am »

To explain firmly, there is no way to do exactly what you want (#1 in Matt's description above).  MC is NOT designed that way.  MC's shuffle functionality is designed using the #2 system Matt described above.

Patrick.... For the record, I do totally understand.  When I first moved to Media Jukebox (way back before there was a Media Center), this was one thing that frustrated me consistently at first.  However, after using it for a long while, I can say that #2 is better in some tangible ways.  You do lose the ability to effortlessly resume ordered playback from "within" shuffle play, but you gain some other abilities and the "resuming ordered playback" issue can be easily worked around.

If Shuffled playback works like you're looking for it to (playlist in order, playback order random) there is no way to predict or modify the future playback activity.  It just wouldn't be possible, because the playback order would be jumping around randomly.

The #2 System allows you to have the "best" of both worlds.  You can be listening to a randomized playlist, but still go in and specifically select which song you want to hear next.  Say you're listening along at a party in Shuffle mode on a "Totally 80s" playlist, and "Ice Ice Baby" comes on.  While that track is playing, you decide it would be pretty cool to hear David Bowie's "Under Pressure" next, since it has the same samples and baseline, but then after that you want it to seamlessly resume random playback as though you hadn't modified the list at all.  This is easily possible with MC's system, but is not possible at all with a system designed like #1 above.  All you do is browse around in your library (it doesn't matter which view you use, so whatever is convenient) and find "Under Pressure" and choose Add (As Next To Play) as the playback type.  The song will be added to the Playing Now list just after the current song, but the remainder of the randomized playlist will remain intact.

Likewise, if you want to go in and build a little "section" of the Playing Now list that is manually constructed and hand-selected for the party, and then have it resume shuffled playback when you're done, this is a simple task.  You just use the Add (As Next To Play) function and then, if needed, manually reorder the added tracks in the Playing Now list by drag-dropping them around.  Since the order in Playing Now is 100% of the time ALWAYS the exact order that playback will proceed, this is possible.  Something else I often use this for while DJ-ing is inserting a Music Video occasionally into a Random playback list.  It is easy to add a few hand-selected videos to the list, go to Playing Now, and then drag them around to "evenly distribute" them in the list (so that they play every once in a while, and then random music playback with visualizers resumes).  Or, how about if you look at the Playing Now list, see that a song that is going to play a couple of songs from now is something crappy or that doesn't fit the "mood" at all?  With MC's system you are able to easily select the offending file and hit the Delete key to remove it.  With a #1 type of system you wouldn't even know the crap song is going to play until you hear the first note!

Now, you say, that's all fine and good but what about my situation..? Where I'm listening to a shuffled list, I hear a song I love, and then I want to quickly and easily continue listening to an album seamlessly without interrupting playback?  This is also possible with MC's system, with relative ease, but you do it a little differently (and it is more flexible).

So, to accomplish what you're looking for, how about this?

1. Enable Shuffled Playback Mode.



2. Play the file you'd like to start randomized playback in that view or list.  Now your Playing Now list looks like this:



While it is playing you can easily see what is "coming up", re-order them if you'd like, or remove crappy songs from the list.  Most importantly, you can add new ordered things to the list...

3. Continue listening a while.  When a certain song comes on, and you say "Hey, I'd like to continue listening to that Album."  Click this button (circled in red below):



That takes you immediately to here in your Library.  It makes no difference if those files are already in the Playing Now list or not, it will take you to a view of just that album, without interrupting playback!



4. Select the files you'd like to play.  This can be the FULL album, or just the ones you want to "add" to the list.  A tip?  You can quickly drag-select by dragging with the RIGHT CLICK mouse button (a little weird, but it works).

5. Right click -> Send To -> Play -> Add (as Next to Play).



6. Your Playing Now list now looks like this:



Playback will seamlessly continue to the rest of the Album and THEN will seamlessly continue shuffled playback.  In fact, the entire list order is completely preserved.  So say you hear a song you don't recognize, but liked (or maybe hated and want to delete), and you want to look up what the title was, but you didn't get there in time (it played 5 songs ago).  No problem.  The list is the list, in order.  Always.

Even better?  What about if you're playing along in a shuffled list and you hear a song that makes you want to hear a full album (or a couple of songs), but not from that particular album?  Say, for example, you're listening along and U2's cover of "All Along The Watchtower" comes on.  You think "Wow, Dylan's version of that song is SO good, I'd really like to hear it, and maybe some more Bobby D too."

7. Right-click -> Locate -> Advanced -> Name results in:



Then, when you see that list, you say "Oh wait, I forgot, I'd rather hear Jimi's version!"  You can select the song right there, Right Click and Send to Next to Play.  Or, if you want more Hendrix, click that Album Quicksearch button or the Artist Quicksearch button and then add those tracks.

Now, I know you are primarily a Theater View user, but this demonstrates the power of MC's method.  None of these things would be possible if MC used the #1 style Shuffled Playback system.  Certainly, it would be easier in that one single use-case where you want to stop shuffled play and then listen to a single album for a little while.  However, this gives a whole bunch of benefits, including the benefit of being able to resume shuffled play, right where you left off, without further user interaction.  (You could accomplish this with the #1 style system but you'd have to wait until the album finished, and then remember to re-enable shuffled mode at that exact moment before the next "ordered" song in the list started playing).

Also, many of these features are still possible from within Theater View, though sometimes finding the files can involve more manual browsing.  Say you're listening along in a shuffled list and a Girl Talk song comes on that samples "New Soul" by Yael Naim (as "No Pause" from Feed the Animals does) and you want to hear that song next.



This works on full albums or individual songs.  You can use the "Select" function in Theater View to individually choose tracks, and then Add them As Next.  The possibilities are endless.
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pcstockton

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2010, 12:30:50 pm »

Glynor,

Wow!  That is HUGE of you to spend the time explaining how it works.  I definitely now see the benefits and power of shuffle play.  Also while there isn't "random" playback (#1), I knew there must be someway to achieve what I liked about it.

What you have described will work wonderfully for me.

Those quicksearch arrows are awesome.

I dont mind at all jumping out to standard view in order to do this.  I assume those quicksearch functions only exist in Standard View?


Rick,
Having a bit more knowledge I will re-read through those links and see if I can glean anything from it.


Thanks again everyone.  I have NEVER experienced such a fine display of support from both developers and dialed-in users.  Three cheers for MC!!!

I hope I can chime in and help people in the future.

-Patrick
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glynor

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2010, 02:22:32 pm »

Wow!  That is HUGE of you to spend the time explaining how it works.  I definitely now see the benefits and power of shuffle play.  Also while there isn't "random" playback (#1), I knew there must be someway to achieve what I liked about it.

What you have described will work wonderfully for me.

Great!  I'm glad I could help.  Actually, I thought of another related thing I might as well explain...

You can also use these features to do the opposite: eg, remove things from the list that you don't want to play.  I use this a lot, personally.  Imagine that you follow basically the same procedure as I described above, but instead of randomly encountering a song you really love and want to hear more of, you encounter something that you don't want to include during this particular playback session?  So, say you use that same exact example above, but when you encounter the Arcade Fire track, you say to yourself "Oh my god, I've played that album to DEATH lately!  I like the shuffle I have going, but I don't want ANY more Arcade Fire right now."

Simple.  Follow the instructions above, but at Step #3, click the Artist Quicksearch button instead.  That will give you a list of ALL of the Arcade Fire songs in your entire Library.  Then simply Control-A to select the full list, and Right Click -> Send To -> Play -> Remove from Playing Now.  That command will search through your current Playing Now list and selectively remove any matching files from the list!

It is nice because you don't even need to be careful.  It doesn't matter if all of the files that you "remove" are or are not actually in the Playing Now list.  If they're there, they'll be removed.  If they're not, then they're ignored.  One issue I encounter a lot that I use this for is this scenario:

I have LOTS of Live Shows in my Library, particularly in my "Psychedelic Rock" Genre.  I like having these because some bands are spectacular live.  I also like having the FULL SHOWS (gotten from etree.org or lossless legs) because then you can sit there and experience the entire show from beginning to end almost as though you are actually there in person.  However, often these "complete" live shows include a bunch of stuff that you wouldn't want to hear in a shuffled playlist (large sections of audience noise and clapping, banter from the band members, introductions from the show "host", and sometimes just terrible audio quality).  So, I have all of these shows and they're all tagged like any other file in my library.  Sometimes though, I want to shuffle play the "Psychedelic Rock" genre but I don't want any of my 8 million live Grateful Dead files to mix in... Since I have ALL of my live show files tagged with the word "live" somewhere in the tags (either in the Album tag, the Name tag, or as a Keyword), this is easy to accomplish.

1. Enable Shuffle Mode.
2. Double click on some random file in the Psychedelic Rock genre to start the playback going.
3. Jump up to the search box and type "live" in the box.  This gives me a list of ALL of the files in the list that contain that word in the tags somewhere.
4. Select-All, Right-Click -> Remove from Playing Now.
5. Done.  The rest of the list keeps playing, but I won't have any offending live tracks come up in the shuffle.

It works great!

I dont mind at all jumping out to standard view in order to do this.  I assume those quicksearch functions only exist in Standard View?

Unfortunately you can only access those cool buttons in Standard View at this time.  You can search in Theater View manually, and then use the Add as Next or Remove from Playing Now choices on those search results, though this is obviously not as quick and the search is a little clumsy.



Alternatively, of course, you can just browse through your view in Theater View like you normally would, select a full album by a particular band, and add THAT as Next to Play.  That functionality works fine, you just can't easily "jump to" the currently playing track's album without manually navigating to it.

If the developers happen to be reading though, there is an opportunity to add this feature easily without adversely impacting the navigation in Theater View or adding a bunch of new choices to the roller menus.  Right now, if you are in Theater View's Playing Now view, and you go to the Info screen in the top roller, this gives you an informational display of the track showing all of the different tags and whatnot.  Sometimes these items are truncated to fit all of the information on the screen, but you can arrow down to them and they expand to show you the full detail.

However, when you "click" on them (hit Enter), they don't actually do anything.  For example:



It would be awesome if those same fields that work with the Quicksearch buttons in Standard View would do the same thing in Theater View when you select them and hit Enter.  So, in that picture above, if you hit Enter it would take you to this view:



Likewise, we have access to the cool quicksearch buttons for Music in the Artist and Album tag fields, but not in the "corollary" fields for Video.  I'd love to have Quicksearch buttons for the [Series] and [Season] tags in a TV Show view!  This would be even more useful in Theater View where searching is a bit more difficult because of the limited text-input options.

Something that happens to me relatively often is that I'll start watching a particular episode of a show in Standard View.  Now, usually when I do this I "play all" the files in the view so the playback automatically continues to the next episode when one is done (marathon-style).  Occasionally this doesn't happen though so I end up with a Playing Now list with just the one file in it.  Then, as I'm watching it I sit back in my seat on the couch with my remote in hand.  When the episode ends, I want to watch the next episode, so I hit my Theater View button.  Unfortunately, this effectively "starts you from scratch" and I have to navigate through my whole library to find the next episode and remember to choose Play All on the proper episode.  Certainly possible and not that bad, but still... I need to "drill down" several levels in my Theater View system to find what I want.

It would be super-nice if I could just go to Theater View's Playing Now, open the Info screen for that episode that is already there in the Playing Now list, arrow down to Series: Lost, hit Enter, and immediately be taken to that "section" of my View scheme ready to choose the next episode!
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glynor

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2010, 02:56:38 pm »

One last quick tip... You can get easy access to the Locate menu for the song currently playing without finding and right-clicking on the file itself in a list (which can sometimes be difficult to hunt-and-peck out, particularly on a HTPC).  Simply Left Click on the Currently Playing "header" (circled in red below) and you'll get a nice pop-up menu with convenient access to many of these commands:

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rick.ca

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2010, 04:41:00 pm »

Great wiki topic, glynor. ;)
And you've added another chapter as I type! :o

Patrick, I should explain a bit more so one might understand when to choose one method or another. I use both, but I find manipulating PN in Theatre View—particularly that detour to play a full album—too awkward. When on the couch listening to music, I do enjoy making period changes to what's playing, but not making tedious changes to a playlist using a remote. Also, I rarely have much attachment to the playing playlist. In fact, if I'm not listening to specifically-chosen albums, it's normally a quasi-random selection of tracks created by a smartlist. There is, of course, no harm in aborting and restarting those.

What I've found most valuable to my casual listening experience is the ability to easily "change directions" in what I'm listening to according to my mood or whim. If listening to a mix, my most common listening pattern might be called "bouncing around" or "random walk." So this is what I've done to give myself a number of choices for such changes. This is an outline of my Theatre View Audio views...

  • Albums ("normal" Genre-Artist-Album views)
    • Rock
    • Classical
    • Other

  • Smartlists (a small collection of different mixes)

  • Radio (mc15.exe /mcc 10047, 1 starts "Radio" play)

  • Playing (views based on custom expression fields [IsPlayingNow] = IsPlaying() and [IsInPlayingNow] = IsInPlayingNow())
    • Saved PN (files in Theatre View PN saved playlists)
    • In PN (so I can see PN without having to go there)
    • Album
    • Artist
    • Similar (e.g., same Style, Year, Rating)

  • Streaming (a collection of Internet radio "stations")

At any time, I'm able to choose one of the following:
  • Replace PN with a random mix Smartlist.
  • Wanting more of something, switch from PN to the "Playing" menu and select something from the Artist, Album or something similar to the currently playing track.
  • Tiring of what's playing, but having no alternative in mind, choose "Radio" to get a new quasi-random selection. Hit "Next" until a suitable track is selected. The "Playing" views will now be seeded by this track.

This allows me to be my own DJ, but without the level of attention (I imagine) real DJing requires. 8)
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pcstockton

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2010, 04:05:35 pm »

Simply awesome. Thanks again.

The "location menu" tip is huge!

Thanks Rick. I've never been into playlist style listening, but this is a different story.

I look forward to learning more.
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pcstockton

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Re: Random PLayback (Not Shuffle)
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2010, 06:16:32 pm »

Glynor..... off topic....

What font is that in your above Standard View screenshots?

thanks,
Patrick
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