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Author Topic: Play Doctor  (Read 23297 times)

dcwebman

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Play Doctor
« on: January 10, 2011, 07:37:43 am »

Quote
14. NEW: Introducing new Play Doctor that can intelligently select and play from your library and other sources (work in progress).  See Playing Now.

Can you please elaborate how this is different than Play Radio? It said to enter something I liked and I entered "Hoobastank" figuring it would at least start with finding something from them in my library. No, I get Neil Diamond. Quite a stretch there.
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Jeff

Matt

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 09:13:15 am »

Can you please elaborate how this is different than Play Radio?

It's the next version of Play Radio, with a new face.

It's still a work in progress, so you might reserve judgement for a week or two.
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maxxsid

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2011, 10:34:25 am »

The first title presented to me by the Doctor was:
Revolution 9

Very peculiar taste the doctor has... : )
number nine number nine number nine number nine number nine number nine number nine number nine ...
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Matt

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2011, 05:34:51 pm »

It's still a work in progress, so you might reserve judgement for a week or two.

Now it would be helpful to have testing and feedback for the playlist generation engine:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=61897.0
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bytestar

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2011, 09:31:22 pm »

i work currently on the German Translation from Play Doc  ;D

but the Strings, No, A Little, More, Lots, are not translatable at this Time !!! WHY ?
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datdude

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2011, 11:24:32 pm »

I'm hoping this can turn into something that is more like an automatic DJ, so that if I just pick a single song, play doctor automatically knows I want to hear more music, or if I select a playlist and the last song plays, play doctor kicks in.
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glynor

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 12:48:30 am »

I gave some UI feedback in the current build thread.  However, I just thought of something else while I was testing it again...

The system is obviously building a fair-sized list all at once and then sending it to Playing Now.  It also feels a bit slow with a largish library.  If the music started quicker, it would feel more responsive, even if the full list wasn't finished building.  So, for example, I just searched for "Sweet Caroline" as a test.  It did, smartly, pick Neil Diamond and started playing the song, along with a bunch of other songs that made sense.  However, it took 1 minute and 30 seconds from when I hit enter until it started playing the song (I stopwatched it).

Figuring all this stuff out is hard.  However, I imagine it would be a lot quicker for the system to have picked out just the "seed" track.  If it did that part, then started the song playing, then continued processing (preferably without completely blocking the UI like it does now), filling in the list a handful of tracks at a time it would feel a TON more responsive, even if the end result actually took much longer to generate in the end.

And, there would be a way to "stop it" once you'd started the process (issuing a "Stop" command).  As it is, if you type in a search that takes a particularly long time to calculate, you're stuck.  There's no way to "give up" or tell when the music is suddenly going to start.
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glynor

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 01:30:35 pm »

Much quicker today.  Must have been last.fm after all.

I didn't have last.fm enabled in Play Doctor, but it is enabled for scrobbling in MC.  Must have been that.
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marko

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 03:46:21 am »

"Type something or just press play"

I guess it could be neat if we could add "something typed" mellow, or bouncy for example, as a parameter for the MCC 10047 command, then we might be able to set up a few different "radio channels" in theater view...

gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 04:23:23 am »

It's the next version of Play Radio, with a new face.

It's still a work in progress, so you might reserve judgement for a week or two.
ok.. its 2 weeks.  ;D
i did not care about the doctor but since my beloved play radio is gone i have to.

to keep it short.. it really does not work for me.
for instance.. i listen to an album, the album stops. i send the mcc command for the doctor to mc and mc just starts playing the last song from the album. i just wanted to play radio, with the skipping etc.
now the last album could be something i dont want to hear in radio (lets say one of bachs passions, not that i ever listen to them, but one work split in 200 tracks, i dont want one of those tracks in radio). so a way to keep tracks out all the time would be nice.
i also typed something and hitted play and i get something with the same track 4 times in a list of 100  :o. when i want to tinger and look for a perfect list i like to use play/smart lists. i liked radio for the fact that it was simple and most of all, that it worked.

 :)
gab
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Matt

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 01:54:26 pm »

A coming build fixes the issue with starting Radio / Play Doctor playback with the MCC / remote.

It will allow setting rules for what files can be played.

Finally, it will also allow saving the rules under playlists, so you can make different Playcharts (the new name) with different sets of rules.
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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 03:07:43 pm »

oh.. the doctor is in.. looking forward to the next build.

 :)
gab
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rick.ca

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 07:42:23 pm »

Is Play Doctor now (build 18) supposed to be responding somehow to MCC 10047? I can't find any circumstance (i.e., PD playing a list or not, PN cleared or not, "Current Playchart" exists or not) in which it does anything. I'm not sure what to expect—should it regenerate a new list?

It helps to update the command from MC15 to MC16.   ::) :-[

Play Doctor generates a 100-track list, and then, from what I can tell, it doesn't revise that list based on skipped tracks. If so, why is it replacing Play Radio? It seems to be a completely different feature.  ?
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glynor

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 10:33:48 pm »

I've had some weird results tonight using the Play Doctor.

At one point I typed in Pearl Jam and a Pantera song started playing.  I have a TON of Pearl Jam and probably 2-4 Pantera songs in the library total.

Actually, no... It was even worse than that.  I was trying to access it via Send to -> Play -> Play with Play Doctor.  I had a specific Pearl Jam song selected (I don't remember which one) and I sent it to Play Doctor, and it played the Pantera song.
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dcwebman

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2011, 07:05:09 am »

Now that Playcharts are in, I just discovered Current Session in the tree that has the same logo. It appears to be some kind of smartlist. Care to explain what it is?
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Jeff

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2011, 07:24:20 am »

Now that Playcharts are in, I just discovered Current Session in the tree that has the same logo. It appears to be some kind of smartlist. Care to explain what it is?
They get saved under their own section in Playlists.
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dcwebman

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2011, 07:36:59 am »

This is the Current Session I'm referring to.
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Jeff

pcstockton

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2011, 03:21:52 pm »

While I havent seen the Doctor in action.  I can say i REALLY like Play as Radio. 

Would it be possible to keep Radio and add, in addition, the Doctor?

It sounds like they act fairly differently.

Thanks!
Patrick
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JimH

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2011, 03:25:22 pm »

They're close enough that we think the Doctor replaces Radio.
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glynor

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2011, 03:32:45 pm »

They're close enough that we think the Doctor replaces Radio.

They are pretty close, only the Dr. is much better.
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JimH

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2011, 03:51:39 pm »



I like the nurse, too.
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rick.ca

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2011, 04:30:40 pm »

Quote
They're close enough that we think the Doctore replaces Radio.

For many of us, the essential quality of Play Radio is it's ability to adapt to skipped tracks. This allows a very convenient way to interact with the selection process—especially where the user's attention and means for doing so are limited. It provides an enjoyable way of listening to music using Theatre View and a remote when not in the mood to make a specific selection of choose a predefined playlist. Narrowing the selection by skipping tracks requires little thought and just the push of a button. This is not only very easy to do when consciously listening to the music, but also engages the listener in the process.

From what I can tell, Play Doctor just creates a playlist. While I'm sure the logic it uses to do so is brilliant, I don't understand how it could possibly be more effective than what I already already do with smartlists. It can't possibly know I like listening to music according to custom styles or what my style categories mean. It could be using external information to search for specific tracks in my collection (e.g., searching for artists it knows match the mood suggested by the words entered), but there hasn't been any suggestion it does anything of the sort. Most importantly, it doesn't seem to provide any way to interact with the selection—other than to redo the list. If this is done with a button press (i.e., new criteria are not entered), then my expectation has to be I'll just get another list I don't like. I could stick with the list and skip tracks I don't like, but why would I want to do that? Rather than it being less likely I'll hear another track like the one I skipped, having to skip a track will just suggest I'm in for the same.

As it stands now, these appear to be two completely different features. I have no objection to there only being one, but only because Play Doctor seems gimmicky and of no practical use considering the availability of smartlists. It's Play Radio that provides the otherwise unavailable function of adapting the selection based on tracks skipped. If Play Doctor is to be a true "successor" to Play Radio, it should incorporate that feature. When a track is skipped, why can't it simply remove all similar tracks from the list and replace them based on criteria that will attempt to avoid more of the same? That will provide the same functionality as Play Radio, while still doing whatever it is we're supposed to find useful in Play Doctor.
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pcstockton

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2011, 04:39:41 pm »

Exactly....  When I seed Radio Play with Frank Zappa, I always get a bunch of Grateful Dead until i skip them a few times and they stop showing up.  Very nice.

I will be smarter than any algorithm possible.
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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2011, 05:30:09 pm »

i agree with rick 100%. and there is nothing better with the doctor. its just a different feature. some smarty smartlist. but not as smart as the radio was, since that listened to its public. i could not get the mcc command to work so i made my own smart list with 500 tracks and it actually was smarter then the doctor since it left the files out i said it should.
 :)
gab
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JimH

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2011, 05:42:49 pm »

So the experts make their own smartlists.  That's fine.

I want an easy to use feature that doesn't require me thinking much.  I don't want to tend it.

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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2011, 05:47:47 pm »

So the experts make their own smartlists.  That's fine.

I want an easy to use feature that doesn't require me thinking much.  I don't want to tend it.


that is nice.. but the experts can not make the radio feature. and its gone, that is a pity. did not have to do much thinking with radio also, about rainstorms mixing into my metallica songs, it was a breeze. with the doctor i get all kind of files i dont want, and even an expert can not get them out of it. and its static, radio evolved. i will miss it.
 :)
gab
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pcstockton

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2011, 05:51:15 pm »

Is there a huge issue with keeping Radio along with the new Doctor?

It seems like they are quite distinct.

thanks,
Patrick
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JimH

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2011, 05:55:58 pm »

We may do that.
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pcstockton

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2011, 06:08:25 pm »

HUGS!!!!!!!!!
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rick.ca

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2011, 06:15:10 pm »

I don't see the point in retaining them as separate features. That's only going to lead to people asking for the abilities of one to be included in the other. Or just wondering which one is more appropriate to their needs. Why not just change Play Doctor so it revises the list when a track is skipped? I don't see how that could affect the interests of those who don't want to think about or tend to what it's doing. If some are concerned about "losing" the current list by skipping a track, it could be saved every time a track is skipped. Or just the original and latest revised versions could be saved (i.e., "Current Playchart" and "Current Playchart (revised)".
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JimH

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2011, 06:30:41 pm »

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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2011, 06:32:41 pm »

I don't see the point in retaining them as separate features. That's only going to lead to people asking for the abilities of one to be included in the other. Or just wondering which one is more appropriate to their needs. Why not just change Play Doctor so it revises the list when a track is skipped? I don't see how that could affect the interests of those who don't want to think about or tend to what it's doing. If some are concerned about "losing" the current list by skipping a track, it could be saved every time a track is skipped. Or just the original and latest revised versions could be saved (i.e., "Current Playchart" and "Current Playchart (revised)".
now i disagree...  :)
i think they are totally different and could reside beside each other. i think the only reason why we think it is more or less the same as radio is because it has been presented that way. for me its more like a smartlist wizzard. and it could be nice that way.
even more so. i would preferr it to be seperate. say i type in the doctor "rainstorm" and i get a playlist i play, the next time i hit my remote it will use that as a basis for what i want to hear.. i dont. maybe it will be possible to lead the remote to a doctor playlist (forgot the name) but then we are in expert region again.
 :)
gab
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Matt

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2011, 06:45:21 pm »

with the doctor i get all kind of files i dont want, and even an expert can not get them out of it.

You can edit files that can be included just the same with either.

Look at Play Doctor > Set rules for files that can be included...
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

Matt

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2011, 06:53:17 pm »

say i type in the doctor "rainstorm" and i get a playlist i play, the next time i hit my remote it will use that as a basis for what i want to hear.. i dont.

When using the remote, it will play from all files (weighted by rating, etc. just like Radio), and honor any filter you have set in the default playback.  It does not use the word you typed last, or any other type of seeding (also just like Radio).
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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2011, 06:55:00 pm »

You can edit files that can be included just the same with either.
oh.. that is then new in 19.. did not work that way with 18.

edit also..  :) and it does not evolve depending on my choices
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Matt

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #35 on: January 27, 2011, 06:58:51 pm »

oh.. that is then new in 19.. did not work that way with 18.

You need to edit the rules looking in Playing Now.  Then play something (don't save it).  After that, those rules become the default when using a remote.

If you do want seeded Play Doctor playback in Theater View, pick something and select 'Play (with Play Doctor)' from the play menu.  This will also honor your default filter, variety, etc. settings.
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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #36 on: January 27, 2011, 07:02:50 pm »

When using the remote, it will play from all files (weighted by rating, etc. just like Radio), and honor any filter you have set in the default playback.  It does not use the word you typed last, or any other type of seeding (also just like Radio).
yes.. im sorry knew about the word not being remembered.. and maybe when i get a chance to play with a version that works (which is apparently the case with 19) i might change my opinion.

love you guys anyway
 :)
gab
You need to edit the rules looking in Playing Now.  Then play something (don't save it).  After that, those rules become the default when using a remote.

If you do want seeded Play Doctor playback in Theater View, pick something and select 'Play (with Play Doctor)' from the play menu.  This will also honor your default filter, variety, etc. settings.
with 18 they jumped back to genre is not holiday everytime also without saving  ?.
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Matt

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #37 on: January 27, 2011, 07:03:59 pm »

edit also..  :) and it does not evolve depending on my choices

Radio did learn during playback, although learning did not persist between uses or runs.

We thought it was important to provide a full playlist instead of providing a file at a time.  This makes Replay Gain work better (something you've posted about with Radio), works nicely with handhelds, DLNA, Gizmo, etc., and allows a user to see and customize the playlist.

We've talked about revising the playlist as it is played if things get skipped.  The probability matrix math used in Radio doesn't really make sense in the new model, but it could be as simple as once an artist or album is skipped two times, other files by that artist or album get removed from the playlist.  I have mixed feeling about the importance of this.
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JimH

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #38 on: January 27, 2011, 07:08:15 pm »

yes.. im sorry knew about the word not being remembered.. and maybe when i get a chance to play with a version that works (which is apparently the case with 19) i might change my opinion.

love you guys anyway
ahhh...  

 :-[ :P

we love you, too, gab.
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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2011, 07:12:07 pm »

Radio did learn during playback, although learning did not persist between uses or runs.

We thought it was important to provide a full playlist instead of providing a file at a time.  This makes Replay Gain work better (something you've posted about with Radio), works nicely with handhelds, DLNA, Gizmo, etc., and allows a user to see and customize the playlist.

We've talked about revising the playlist as it is played if things get skipped.  The probability matrix math used in Radio doesn't really make sense in the new model, but it could be as simple as once an artist or album is skipped two times, other files by that artist or album get removed from the playlist.  I have mixed feeling about the importance of this.
but it was nice that it did not persist. i understand the use of the doctor. not saying its bad.. and i like the place on the standard view screen, and that it can be saved as a 'smartlist', because that is what it is. just dont understand why it replaced radio, because of what that does is different.
and i think the replay gain when using album (which is a must for me as long as there is no smart gain) does not really change that much.
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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2011, 07:20:53 pm »

ahhh...  

 :-[ :P

we love you, too, gab.
i do jim i do..  :)
even admire that such a small group of people makes software like this..  :o
amazing..

now back to the other side.
 :)
gab
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Matt

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2011, 07:21:29 pm »

just dont understand why it replaced radio, because of what that does is different.

Both make playlists, optionally based on some input criteria.

Internally it's the same code, but better because it can use similar artist information from Last.fm, because it can include Last.fm files, because multiple stations can be saved and loaded, because the amount of variety can be configured, because it can be used on a DLNA box or Gizmo, etc.
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gappie

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2011, 07:34:47 pm »

Both make playlists, optionally based on some input criteria.

Internally it's the same code, but better because it can use similar artist information from Last.fm, because it can include Last.fm files, because multiple stations can be saved and loaded, because the amount of variety can be configured, because it can be used on a DLNA box or Gizmo, etc.
maybe better in that aspect, but it leaves out the input the user could give by just skipping a file. and that was such an amazing feature.

now its back to the keyboard again and make sure type something nice, btw. i just tried 'test' in the doctor.. i have apparently one crashtestdummies record. so i get all the songs about 7 times in 100.. just some other songs. its static. 
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leezer3

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2011, 07:56:55 pm »

Can I suggest adding Genre=Audiobook to your default list of excludes please :)
This is a pretty common one, and otherwise you *will* get people with audiobooks in their playlists!

Leaving out Christmass is pretty sensible, but I'm not so sure on holiday. Perhaps this is more of an American thing, but over here in the UK you'll be dumping all sorts ;)

-Leezer-
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rick.ca

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #44 on: January 27, 2011, 08:12:02 pm »

Both make playlists, optionally based on some input criteria...

That two features share characteristics is irrelevant to the fact they are fundamentally different and serve very different uses. It's easy to rationalize PD is "better" than PR, but the fact remains it won't do what PR does. So it's either beyond comparison, or it's equally valid to assert PD isn't better or worse, it's just totally useless.

If they can't be combined into one feature that retains all the benefits of both, then keep them as separate features...

We've talked about revising the playlist as it is played if things get skipped.  The probability matrix math used in Radio doesn't really make sense in the new model, but it could be as simple as once an artist or album is skipped two times, other files by that artist or album get removed from the playlist.  I have mixed feeling about the importance of this.

That sounds like a rather crude solution, but then I don't know what PR is doing when I skip a track. I only have faith it will somehow improve it's future selections. If I knew it would be so arbitrary, it would probably have a detrimental effect on the experience. As it is, I don't hesitate to skip a track I'm not in the mood for, even if I otherwise love the artist (or album). I'd have to think twice if the mechanism were that blunt, and I'm afraid that would ruin the experience.

I understand you have mixed feelings about the importance of this. But that can only be because you don't use PR in this manner. Some of us do.
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rick.ca

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #45 on: January 27, 2011, 08:20:36 pm »

Can I suggest adding Genre=Audiobook to your default list of excludes please...

I'm sure the default rules are intended only as an illustration of the kind of rules one might want to use. I don't think any of them were applicable to my library, so I deleted them all and used just one rule to restrict the selection to specific music genres.
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WolfWalker

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2011, 02:57:43 pm »

lol some of the suggestion are a bit odd need to tweak
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So much music so little time!

leezer3

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2011, 07:27:42 pm »

I'm sure the default rules are intended only as an illustration of the kind of rules one might want to use. I don't think any of them were applicable to my library, so I deleted them all and used just one rule to restrict the selection to specific music genres.

Very true for advanced users, but MC needs to cater to the masses as well :)
This basically means that IMHO the default list of excludes should be setup so that you can just enter the seed, and leave it to run from there.

-Leezer-
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rick.ca

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2011, 08:01:05 pm »

Quote
Very true for advanced users, but MC needs to cater to the masses as well. This basically means that IMHO the default list of excludes should be setup so that you can just enter the seed, and leave it to run from there.

It has nothing to do with how advanced the user is. The developers can't possibly know you tag your audio books with [Genre]=[Audiobook] or your holiday music with [Genre]=[Christmas]. Attempting to guess how a user's library is tagged is futile and is likely to encourage unnecessary confusion. A better assumption is MC users are reasonably intelligent, and will have no difficulty setting a simple rule to exclude whatever they please.
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bennyd

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Re: Play Doctor
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2011, 03:17:07 am »

I tried playdoctor a few times with the LASTFM option to play songs from.

The first 15 minutes or so it plays songs from LASTFM if it's in the rendered playlist.
After that it skips all songs from LASTFM in the list.

Is there maybe a timeout in LASTFM for the generated stream url ?
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may U live 2 see the dawn

bennyd :-)
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