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Author Topic: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]  (Read 9519 times)

Matt

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Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« on: February 02, 2011, 10:37:52 pm »

Media Center brings together video from a lot of sources.

For me, this includes at least:
* Television recorded over the air -- under Television in Theater View; under Drives & Devices\Television in Standard View
* Discs I rent -- under DVD in Theater View; under Drives & Devices\[Disc Name] in Standard View
* Home videos -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Netflix instant viewing -- Under Connected\Netflix in Theater View; not in Standard View
* YouTube clips -- Under Connected\YouTube in Theater View; under Video\Connected Media\YouTube in Standard View
* Downloaded YouTube clips -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Ripped movies -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Ripped television series (normally from a DVD) -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Podcasts -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Videos from my digital camera / phone (these are basically 'Home videos', but it's a little confusing since they get acquired to my images folder)

Other users may have more to add to the list.

As you can see, the access is not very unified.  I'd like to improve this in v16.

What is the ideal way to navigate video content?  What are the easiest questions you can answer as a user that will get you to the content you want?

Part of the problem is that, when we import a movie, we don't know if it's a Podcast, a TV show, a movie, a home video, or something else.  So when we build views that ask first 'Are you looking for a movie or a TV show', the view doesn't work unless a user has done manual tag entry (and the program does not make it obvious you need to do this).

Thanks for any ideas.
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glynor

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2011, 12:23:26 am »

I'm tired after digging out, but... Off the top of my head:

MC's default views do seem to be concerned about the source of the video file.  Like you said, Television recorded over the air, or Netflix instant viewing, YouTube even changes depending on if it is downloaded already or progressively as you watch.

A TV Show is a TV Show is a TV Show, and a Movie is a Movie.  The dream is to not have to care if the TV Show was previously recorded DVR-style, streamed via Hulu, streamed via Netflix, downloaded via bittorrent, ripped from DVD, or airing live right now.  If you sit down and you feel like watching a half-hour comedy, you want to find a good one to watch.  If you sit down and want to watch a movie, you don't care if it was recorded on HBO, rented it from Netflix, or if you ripped it from BluRay.  You're looking for a movie.

If MC could be configured in such a way, so that you can browse your media using all the same UI tools we have now, but with the ability to include (and filter) these different sources together in a view.  Imagine a MC view where you browse down via the panes to choose TV Show -> Dexter -> Season 6, and it lists: episodes you've recorded, episodes available online (Netflix and whatnot), and episodes currently airing and yet-to-air all in one view.

To that end, I think that MC should strive to unify all video sources, and to make MC treat them as much the same as is possible.  That is almost certainly going to require some sort of automated or semi-automated metadata acquisition for video files.  I don't know how you get around the [Media Sub Type] problem completely for external video sources, but collecting as much data as possible from the filenames, sidecar files, and other resources would certainly be a start.  If nothing else, the ability to only need to tag some simple basic information (sub type and name for movies, for example, or subtype and series for shows), and have MC pull the rest of the data from the "cloud".  This is really the only way to make things like browsing movies by genre or having episode summaries and nice relational series descriptions viable for most users.
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jmone

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2011, 12:40:17 am »

Glynor makes sence.  I know that others from time to time have posted detailed stuctures for this but for me the sub categories in Video I would use would be as simple as:

Movies --> ? --> ?
Home Videos
TV Series --> Series Name --> Episode (may be Year/Episode)
Music Video --> Artist --> Album (and I could even be convinced these should all be in "Music" with the current "Audio" as they are really all music, just some also have a video track)
Utilities

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MrHaugen

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2011, 12:27:08 pm »

The idea of bringing more video to one view is good. At least for those that use services like Hulu, Netflix and Youtube :) Not much of them is working in Europe unfortunately. I do think that much of it would be accomplished by better methods of getting the most important metadata though. Cloud metadata lookup as Glynor suggests.

If you're considering doing that, you'll also have to do something about the Media Sub Type I think. The best would be to have standardized values which can not be deleted or changed, and also allowing users to add their own values. This way you would have the prerequisite to making video more unified and automatic, as well as keeping advanced users from using their own fields when they feel the need for more values, and possibly missing out on the unification and automatic metadata retrieval.

I don't have a great idea of how to unify videos, other than to integrate the services better under the Video view, to add subscribed movies/series and downloadable content from this providers in the correct sub views. And to take advantage of the media sub types which I pointed out previously. If you do integrate this, you should consider making it possible to Filter certain things like services and media subtypes.

I've been touching this subject before. Those who are interested can read some more here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=54188.msg369626#msg369626. For those who don't bother reading it all, I'll give you some quick examples of how i think filtering and options in Theater View should be like.

Most Media Centers allows you to define options and filtering within Theater View. Many of this apps is Theater View only, so it's pretty clear that such things have to be done here. J River Media Center have very few options in Theater View other than different play modes and view modes of what you have already defined in normal view options. I'm suggesting that you have a trigger on one of the rollers, a keyboard shortcut (or both), which gives you a control panel of sorts. We already have the Meta Data Info windows on the right side of the screen. At least when we go down on the file level. What if this spot is also used for Filtering and some basic Options when the user selects it? One Roller item for Options, and one for Filtering would not be bad.

Options could consist of most normal things users change. Like choices between 2-4 predefined Media View schemes, what skin to use, if using TV with touch screens, what info to be shown on the file Context, Thumbnail Styles, Selecting different View types on different View levels, to remove all "Play all" items from rollers (hint hint :D )

Filtering would be very useful if you're planning on adding more stuff under the Video category. The good thing with filtering is that you can have limited views, and still be able to produce small collections of media on the fly, who you want to review and then pick out and watch a title. Same as option, this filtering options can be used in the same window that options uses, and which is being used by the Meta Data info window today.

You can for instance have filtering based on: Watched/Not Watched, Show Netflix/Hulu/Youtube etc, Duration less than xx, more than xx, Genre, Media Type, Media Sub Type, Actors and so on and so forth. All of this can be presented with One item each, which you can browse down and up through. Hit enter and it brings up a list with that specific filtering option. Hit enter again and MC filters out all that is not fitting this value(s). Select another filter option to reduce the list further. Click "Clear Filters" to reset view. Browse to another view, and it's back to normal, as the view properties in standard options says.

If it's hard to imagine, I could make a quick sketch of it. But I am not an artist with computer drawings..


This would not only be a great tool for new MC users getting started, it would also help a lot of other users with big collections as well. Even if this unification of videos is never implemented.
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Osho

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2011, 01:19:12 pm »

Media Center brings together video from a lot of sources.

For me, this includes at least:
* Television recorded over the air -- under Television in Theater View; under Drives & Devices\Television in Standard View
* Discs I rent -- under DVD in Theater View; under Drives & Devices\[Disc Name] in Standard View
* Home videos -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Netflix instant viewing -- Under Connected\Netflix in Theater View; not in Standard View
* YouTube clips -- Under Connected\YouTube in Theater View; under Video\Connected Media\YouTube in Standard View
* Downloaded YouTube clips -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Ripped movies -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Ripped television series (normally from a DVD) -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Podcasts -- under Video in Theater View; under Video in Standard View
* Videos from my digital camera / phone (these are basically 'Home videos', but it's a little confusing since they get acquired to my images folder)

I would organize all videos in 2 broad categories - at the top level.

* video I have locally (everything other than hulu, netflix, youtube in the above list)
* video in the cloud (hulu, netflix, youtube, next-big-thing-in-video-streaming)

This distinction also helps to set expectation of quality/timeliness of video playback.

For the video I have locally category, organization posted by jmone makes perfect sense to me. For cloud videos, the organization inside each of the "big 3" (hulu, netflix, youtube) is predominantly dictated by their content and API. But uniformity in interface/hierarchy in standard view and theater view would be very usable for these.

Osho
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mojave

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2011, 01:56:32 pm »

I would organize all videos in 2 broad categories - at the top level.

* video I have locally (everything other than hulu, netflix, youtube in the above list)
* video in the cloud (hulu, netflix, youtube, next-big-thing-in-video-streaming)

I somewhat disagree. I wish my Netflix Instant Queue would show up with the rest of my movies. I don't use Hulu, but the subscription service might have something similar. I would, however, like to have browsable content separate. For example, I would like the Netflix Instant Queue to show up in Video:Movies or Video:TV Shows, but the ability to browse Netflix by categories to show up under your "video in the cloud." If I don't want the kids browsing for movies, then I don't have to give them access to "video in the cloud."

 
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2011, 07:01:13 pm »

Mine is pretty simple; Movies, Music Videos, Childrens Movies, Home Movies, TV, Other
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leezer3

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2011, 07:50:57 pm »

Basically, everything I've got is sorted by a base genre. This looks something like this:
Films, TV Series, Anime, Documentaries & Factual, Other
I use these as theatre view root items, with my Oxygen skin (It's in the skins board), which uses nice icons for each :)

I don't use OTA TV through MC at present, as we still don't have any DVB-S2 (Yaobing? Was mooted back in MC14), so don't have anything there. Similarly, anything from Youtube or similiar will get downloaded and filed if I want to keep it.


First quick thought would be to automatically file any video acquired from a camera under the 'Home Video' type category.
Similarly, anything you can reasonably determine to be a movie/ TV should be filed as such. (I don't know how much access you have to Netflix and info on what things actually are) I'd add a little overlay icon to anything in the cloud, but nothing more :)

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park

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2011, 08:24:36 pm »

I created a custom tag called 'Type' that has values like: Feature, Short, TV, Home movie, Source footage (for my video projects).

Off that, I create a view for each 'Type' with relevant categories. TV will always need [Series][Season][Episode] whereas movies etc dont, so it seems natural to me to have them in separate views.

I think that in order to get better metadata into MC so that the views make sense, the simplest way would be an auto-tagging tool. I would wage that the vast majority of users acquire their video using some kind of set folder structure. Cameras always import the video into the same folders as images. DVD ripping software often rips to a set base directory. Downloads download to a set download directory.

A nice wizard that would hold your hand in the auto import process, asking you if you want to assign certain default values to files based on what location they are in, would save an awful lot of manual tagging, and make certain default Views useful right off the bat.

Finally, I would really, really love it if you changed from your jriver xml sidecar files to xmp files. XMP metadata is read by all the adobe video editing tools and Bridge. Many of my videos already have metadata applied using those adobe tools, and it is a shame that MC can't read or write back to them. This goes equally for RAW image files too.
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rjm

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2011, 10:08:38 pm »

I have a Type field that specifies: Movie, TV, Music, Comedy, Course, Documentary, Podcast, Family.

I have a Topic field that specifies: genre or topic.

And then I use the standard Artist, Album, Name, Date fields for everything else. Use of these should be obvious except perhaps for:

Movie (Artist is blank, Album is movie title, Name is blank unless multiple parts)
TV (Artist is title, Album is series name, Name is episode name)



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MrHaugen

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2011, 04:52:40 am »

I think you would have accomplished much if you just set some good default view schemes in Normal and Theater View, together with a way of more automatically getting meta data from files, as Park and Glynor suggests. Either with an automatic and local method of reading name of movies, name of series with season and episode numbers and so on, or with a better cloud lookup system for meta data. Possibly integration with different services to provide the basic data, or a more comprehensive solution like our members' meta data plugins. Only more incorporated in MC, and not a plugin (which many users do not use at all).

With better default View Schemes I'm thinking of a way of being presented with different view schemes under the installation wizard (right after skin selection?), which present some different Media View setups. Possibly with yet another question which asks the users what media they want to use the Media Center with. Music, Video and Pictures. Music and Video. Music and Pictures. Music only. Video and Pictures. Video only. Pictures Only. This would narrow down the selections of the View schemes. It would help a lot with new users, which do not have to mess with Views options immediately to get things in order.

The most obvious things to me, would be the selection between some standardized schemes (not going into music and pictures here). Hulu, Netflix and Youtube might be integrated as default, to their appropriate Category shown in example 1. Have never used Hulu or Neflix, so I do not exactly know all the media present for this services.

Video 1: Movies (Netflix?), Series/TV Shows (Hulu?), Documentary, Comedy, DVD Player, Short/Youtube, Music Videos, Home Videos
Video 2: Movies, Series/TV Shows, Documentary, Comedy, DVD Player, Music Videos, Home Videos
Video 3: Movies, Series/TV Shows, Documentary, Comedy
Video 4: Movies, Series/TV Shows

With the appropriate rules for auto fetching of meta data, this would be a big step towards making MC more user friendly, and reducing the steps needed to get a decent first setup.
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Matt

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 05:42:13 pm »

To ask a more concrete question, what's a better Theater View (and later Standard View) layout:

Root item: Video
Roller underneath: All Files   Movies (by date imported)    Movies (by year)   Television (by date recorded)    Television (by program)    Home Videos   Other

OR

Root items: Movies    Television    Home Videos    Other Videos
Rollers underneath: would vary, but have useful views for each
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Jaguu

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2011, 06:17:59 pm »

What about recording a movie from tv? Would it be possible to move it to movies section or would it go tothe  tv section?

I have a feeling that this distinction is more based on media types than content. I think we should be abe to group media by content and not the underlying media type. Media type should be transparent. Does it matter where a movie comes from? I don't think so? Does it matter where a tv series comes from? DVD or recorded? I don't think so! Does it matter where music comes from? CD/DVD/Internet? I don't think so.

I think we should be free to define the content ourselves. Don't mind if there is a preselected choice. But I would like to be able to change easily. I download lots of old italian songs from youtube. It goes by default to video. But I prefer to have it stored under music.
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leezer3

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2011, 06:59:05 pm »

Number 2, definitely :)
For this to work though, MC needs to get smarter. Basically, you need a degree of auto-tagging and decision making as to what the file is before you know where to file it.

A lot of this is probably in the code already, thoughts for simple improvements:
1. You should be able to determine whether a file is a home video or more standard xvid film by looking at the codec info.
2. You can probably assume any xvid (and similar) file of ~40 mins is likely to be a TV episode.
3. If you've recorded it within MC realistically it should know what it is. Tie in the EPG data a program has been recorded from and it should be easy as pie to auto-tag it.
4. Date imported is IMHO a bad thing to sort a view by, unless the user asks for it specifically. Better would probably be alphabetically.

The only way to really make this work though, is auto-tagging like music. The EPG is an obvious source of data for recorded stuff, and it's also relatively easy to write a few filters to parse basic info from the file/ directory naming structure when standard conventions are used ( IE. 'Example s01e01- Example, Example' for TV naming & 'Example- 2011' or similar for movie naming.

Cheers

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darichman

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2011, 07:50:39 pm »

My video categories are:
  • Film
  • Television
  • Shorts
  • Anime
  • Documentary
  • Sport
  • Advertising
  • Comedy (stand-up etc)
  • Theatre
  • Musicals
  • Dance/Ballet
  • Concerts
  • Music Videos
  • Web Media
  • Stock
  • Personal (home videos etc)
  • Projects (my creations etc)

These are list fields so videos can belong to more than one (ie an Anime feature film can be [Anime];[Film] and appear in both). I use all of them in Standard view but don't have views for all of them in Theatre View yet.

I'm not really very concerned about where it came from (eg Television might be a recording, DVD rip etc) although I do have a field called [Source] which I use to record this and this is sometimes useful for filtering.

I use a theatre view layout of:
  Main screen: Video > (rollers for each of the above categories)
  Different views under each roller category (and then customised views like 'Timeline' , 'Genres' , 'IMDb Top 250'

...so I guess this is similar to Matt's second suggestion (which I prefer)

PS it seems like a lot of what's being discussed here is about defining useful categories and then making use of categories within the program. A few good ideas were thrown around here.
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rjm

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2011, 09:14:01 pm »

To ask a more concrete question, what's a better Theater View (and later Standard View) layout:

Root item: Video
Roller underneath: All Files   Movies (by date imported)    Movies (by year)   Television (by date recorded)    Television (by program)    Home Videos   Other

OR

Root items: Movies    Television    Home Videos    Other Videos
Rollers underneath: would vary, but have useful views for each

I think we should dump all use of video, audio, image, and data classifications anywhere in the menu system.

Most media contain multiple of video/audio/image/data. For example:

Movie: video + poster image + mht review + txt description
Documentary: video + eBook that inspired the documentary + audio podcast discussing it

For those rare occasions when you really only want to see one media type, like when making audio selections for an iPod, then perhaps a global filter for each of audio/video/image/data that could be added as buttons to the toolbar would be useful.

I prefer your 2nd layout because it appears closer to my preferred direction.
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glynor

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2011, 10:14:01 pm »

Interesting.

Let me think on this a bit.
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rpalmer68

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2011, 02:05:19 am »

Mine is pretty simple and most people can find what they want pretty quickly.

Root:  Video
2nd Level: TV Series, Movies, Music Videos, Live Entertainment, Kids,  Home Videos

Within eac of these they are displayed differently, I use a multi select list "genres" for Movies, TV Series and Live Entertaiment, Artist for the Kids stuff  and Dates/people etc for Home videos.

I guess Television could come under Video as well, but I don't mind it where it is now.

I wouldn't like the root level to get too big/busy with lots of video sections myself.


Richard
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MrHaugen

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2011, 02:24:17 am »

To ask a more concrete question, what's a better Theater View (and later Standard View) layout:

Root item: Video
Roller underneath: All Files   Movies (by date imported)    Movies (by year)   Television (by date recorded)    Television (by program)    Home Videos   Other

OR

Root items: Movies    Television    Home Videos    Other Videos
Rollers underneath: would vary, but have useful views for each

Number two for sure in my case. I think that sorting has little to do in the name of the view. There will be way to much text. Sorting and filtering should be done elsewhere in my opinion.
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Matt

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2011, 10:29:06 am »

There's been a lot of discussion about this one inside the company, and we have a proposal we like quite a bit.

At the root, all types and sources of videos will be under a single item 'Video'.

Selecting 'Video' on the root roller will show a sub-roller with different types and sources.  This will include things like Movies, Television, Netflix, and a few others.  The list is customizable.

Picking a sub-roller item will show views appropriate to that type / source.  For example, picking 'Movies' will show views like Name, Recent, Year, Genre.  This list of views is also customizable.

Here are some screenshots:
http://pix01.com/gq%40B7oZ

Thanks for any feedback.

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mojave

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2011, 10:51:10 am »

I like all the types and sources under "Video." It seems uncluttered and easy to navigate. It is also nice that the list is customizable.

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gvanbrunt

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2011, 10:56:40 am »

I really like the idea of unifying video no matter where the source is from. In the same vein, wouldn't podcasts, last.fm, and audio also qualify as rolling up audio stuff? Or Picassa, Facebook Images, and on disk ones?  That would be a nice feature.

I also like the others suggestions about making MC smarter about tagging new content into the appropreate "subgroups". If it did that they could move them to the root as they as wish etc. I'm not sure how having all these sub groups right at the root would work though. In my setup that would be a lot of items to navigate through with a remote to get to the one I want. I think that is more a personal preference.

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leezer3

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 11:22:34 am »

Still agree with #2, sorry  :-X
Lumping everything under video just isn't idiot-proof enough.

Maybe you should stick up a poll with your two options on the main board?
I appreciate you like it as a company, but you're all developers and sometimes that shows :)

-Leezer-
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JimH

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2011, 11:52:55 am »

What's #2?
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mojave

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2011, 12:00:59 pm »

Lumping everything under video just isn't idiot-proof enough.

What if they add a VHS category?  ;D

I think it is more idiot-proof to go to Video to find Netflix, etc. Currently you have to go to Connected, which is off the screen. There are probably some that have never even looked at what is under Connected.

Maybe we should be able to drag and drop Root Items and Categories. Some may use Netflix exclusively and will want it as a root item. Others will want want it under Video. Others might want a Connected (or Streaming) category like now with Netflex under it. I actually would like the Netflix Instant Queue integrated into Movies because I don't care about the source as much. I just want to browse all my DVDs, Blu-rays, and Netflix Instant Queue in one place.
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JimH

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2011, 12:03:42 pm »

Maybe we should be able to drag and drop Root Items and Categories. Some may use Netflix exclusively and will want it as a root item. Others will want want it under Video.
I think you can do that now in Theater View options with Nest and Unnest.
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mojave

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2011, 12:07:30 pm »

I think you can do that now in Theater View options with Nest and Unnest.
I actually tried it before I posted. I can't nest Netflix under Video. I can Unnest it and make it a Root item, but I can't re-nest it under any other root items besides Connected.
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glynor

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2011, 12:19:58 pm »

There's been a lot of discussion about this one inside the company, and we have a proposal we like quite a bit.

At the root, all types and sources of videos will be under a single item 'Video'.

Selecting 'Video' on the root roller will show a sub-roller with different types and sources.  This will include things like Movies, Television, Netflix, and a few others.  The list is customizable.

Picking a sub-roller item will show views appropriate to that type / source.  For example, picking 'Movies' will show views like Name, Recent, Year, Genre.  This list of views is also customizable.

Here are some screenshots:
http://pix01.com/gq%40B7oZ

Thanks for any feedback.

This is EXACTLY what I came here to suggest after thinking about it for a bit.  Good show.

PS.  The ability to do the same thing under Audio might be nice too.  For things like Music vs. Audiobooks vs. Last.FM, etc.
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Matt

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 12:39:25 pm »

I actually tried it before I posted. I can't nest Netflix under Video. I can Unnest it and make it a Root item, but I can't re-nest it under any other root items besides Connected.

Library items, which the stock 'Video' item is, can only have other library items as children.

You need to create a 'Category' item, which can contain library items or special items like Netflix, etc. as children.

Please start a thread if you want to talk about this in more detail, since it's sort of a side-track to the main discussion.

Thanks.
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cncb

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2011, 12:48:54 pm »

What might be useful in this scenario (which I have suggested before and would be useful in other areas) is to allow a specific playlist group to be added under a root item.  Then you could have your video playlists show up with everything else under Video and it might be more "unified".
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Griff

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2011, 03:03:16 pm »

There's been a lot of discussion about this one inside the company, and we have a proposal we like quite a bit.

At the root, all types and sources of videos will be under a single item 'Video'.

Selecting 'Video' on the root roller will show a sub-roller with different types and sources.  This will include things like Movies, Television, Netflix, and a few others.  The list is customizable.

Picking a sub-roller item will show views appropriate to that type / source.  For example, picking 'Movies' will show views like Name, Recent, Year, Genre.  This list of views is also customizable.

Here are some screenshots:
http://pix01.com/gq%40B7oZ

Thanks for any feedback.





Sorry, We dont like the roller bar under Connected.

It was great in the old days when there wasnt much content.

Today,it it looks like a freight train across the Big Screen. (sorry)

It looks like in your preference above, all your doing is renaming Connected to Video.

We were always able to move/create items like Video into Connected.

I prefer Connected and Videos stay separate and something be done about the roller bar.

(Ya,I know)

 ;D

Anyway something off the test mach. with Video moved over.

http://www.pix01.com/gallery/B32B0399-9FF1-437E-85D6-CD86F2F76BDD/Roller/bigpage.html?image=693440825_orig0.jpg

Thanks
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rick.ca

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2011, 03:13:28 pm »

There's been a lot of discussion about this one inside the company, and we have a proposal we like quite a bit...

Now that wasn't so difficult, was it? ;)

You can't possibly determine a "right" or even "better" way to classify a user's collection. It not only depends on the nature of the items, but how the user intends to use them. I have multiple views for the same media. Movies by genre and year is fine, but I also like to work with them by director and actors. If I want music videos to appear with the rest of my music media, I should be able to do so. Your arbitrary decisions on these matters don't make things easier for me. On the contrary, they require sometimes unusual workarounds, and generally make everything unnecessarily complicated and more difficult to maintain.

What's far more important is that the mechanism for configuring the views is straightforward, idiot-proof and easy to use. You can then provide a fairly comprehensive set of default views. Most users will get the idea they can delete what they don't need and modify the rest.

Library items, which the stock 'Video' item is, can only have other library items as children.

I suspect this must be the reason you had to ask in the first place. And this is the real issue. Why is this restriction necessary? Why can't it be like Standard view, where different media types can be included in the same view? Maybe there's some technical reason why this is necessary, but it certainly doesn't make things easier for the user. Not only do we waste time figuring out we can't do intuitively obvious things like adding Netflix to Video, there seem to be other problems related to this restriction. I'm not sure how, but problems saving and restoring views seem to be related to this restriction on root items.

The configuration routine—particularly the critical "Items to show" section—has been buggy from day 1. It's not clear which items can be added where. It should allow a branch to be created anywhere, then restrict the choices of what can be added at that position. The nesting doesn't work properly. Attempting to nest an item often moves it to the root, instead of the adjacent branch. Using the same name for a node as used elsewhere in the configuration (e.g., something like "recent" or "podcast" using in both Audio and Video) breaks that other item. Such flakiness—combined with the fact configurations can't be saved and restored—makes the whole thing far from user-friendly.

And, dead horse or not, get rid of the restrictions on [Media Sub Type]! I'm guessing you're using that in the configuration of the default views, and users will therefore want to be able to change those types, just as they'll want to change the default views.
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leezer3

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2011, 05:37:14 pm »

What's #2?

The second of the original ideas posted :)

What if they add a VHS category?  ;D

I think it is more idiot-proof to go to Video to find Netflix, etc. Currently you have to go to Connected, which is off the screen. There are probably some that have never even looked at what is under Connected.

Maybe we should be able to drag and drop Root Items and Categories. Some may use Netflix exclusively and will want it as a root item. Others will want want it under Video. Others might want a Connected (or Streaming) category like now with Netflex under it. I actually would like the Netflix Instant Queue integrated into Movies because I don't care about the source as much. I just want to browse all my DVDs, Blu-rays, and Netflix Instant Queue in one place.

I took Matt's second option to mean that netflix & whatnot would move out of the connected item, and instead be filed under the appropriate Films, TV etc.
I completely agree that the current connected item isn't ideal.

-Leezer-
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MrHaugen

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2011, 03:14:20 am »

I like the idea Matt. Looks like a good solution.
I also think that rick touches some important subjects.
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newsposter

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2011, 10:45:50 pm »

Things to consider:

- source format + metadata + drm (internal on-line library, external off-line, on-demand stream, DVD/BRay, various ripping options, etc)

- content + metadata (title, actual program data/stream, 'official' ratings such as mpaa, user or crowd-sourced ratings, dvd extras such as scripts or narration, etc, etc)

- target format + metadata +- drm (transcoding, different display resolutions, burning options, entitlement to strip drm, dvi-i, hdmi, etc)

Ideally, and within the law (drm), there would be zero resolution loss moving between the three layers here.
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flac.rules

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #35 on: April 28, 2011, 05:33:02 pm »

Its slightly on the side of the discussion, but I would like a more unified handling of the files too when they are remote and local. I try not to clear the playing now list, but MC has a tendency to do it anyway in many cases, one of them is remote media (for instance youtube), where you very often will delete your playing now, even if you have configured it to not happen with local media on double clicking.
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sgomes

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2011, 07:00:26 am »

A lot of this discussion is focusing on how to present the data once it's tagged, but that's easy enough to solve with a few custom views. To me, the real problem is getting everything tagged in the first place.

I've tried a number of options like AutoMeta and similar taggers, but they still involve a lot of manual work (such as, in a lot of cases, having to enter individual episode and season numbers for each video file). In this respect, MC would have a lot to gain by having a feature similar to the one it has for audio, where it fills in tags from the filename. Combine this with integration with external databases like TheTVDB and you have a real winner.

Not having this isn't a show-stopper for me, as I'm currently looking into how I can solve this with some code of my own, but it would be awesome to have it happen automatically in MC.
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olinbg

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2011, 07:11:24 am »

A lot of this discussion is focusing on how to present the data once it's tagged, but that's easy enough to solve with a few custom views. To me, the real problem is getting everything tagged in the first place.

This is where the "tag-by-folder" idea that's come in before I think could really work.

Even if I could just set the media sub type based on where the files are imported from, that would be a great start.  If I could get series and season read from the folder path as well, fantastic.
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sgomes

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2011, 05:52:01 pm »

http://wiki.xbmc.org/index.php?title=TV_Shows_(Video_Library) has a very interesting description of how XBMC intelligently handles things based on path and filename.
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Daydream

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2011, 07:44:15 pm »

I'm gonna come out and say it: I feel like an idiot because I read this 10 times and I still don't know what's it all about. Standard view? Theater View? Both? Default (but changeable) view schemes? Default (but unchangeable) view schemes?

I'll offer my thought process (heavily influenced by what I've learned somewhere else), hopping that it fits with the ideas here, even if I don't quite get them:
- users side: get your collections in order. If there's only one folder with all the music, movies, series from all possible torrents, and you want to import that folder into MC, that's recipe for disaster.

- MC side: label the material at import time, for the top most categories (with default and custom options available). Here's an example how it would work for me:
# Audio is Audio, podcasts are audio, and if you have something else (you collection of beats and samples) you're a minority and a pro, so you're able to work it on your own; that gives as AUDIO
# Movies are Movies, Concerts are Movies, Documentaries (one long feature) are Movies, recorded Movies are Movies; that gives us MOVIES
# Pictures are Pictures, so we have PICTURES
# Series are Series, Documentaries (multiple episodes, features) are Series, recorded series are Series, that gives as SERIES
# Videos are anything else that cannot be group as above: Music videos, videos you shot in your backyard, etc. The wedding of Prince William and Kate Middleton belongs here. Yes, even if you capped it from all 23 channels that broadcast it in HD. Wait, you didn't?

So, for example, I'll take my movies folder holding all my movies (it's a folder full with symlinks to the real locations) and scan it in MC choosing a few filetypes and the category "MOVIES". So I don't have to import all 10000 video files, and then start filtering through them what are movies.

If anybody has to ask in what category Victoria's Secret Fashion Shows falls into, that's SERIES.
Yo Gabba Gabba! cannot be classified, should be automatically rejected. Especially if your kids plan to watch an ep 400 times.

Anything else (in my opinion, prove me wrong if it's the case) can and will be broken down in sub-categories that are NOT predictable. Then if I really want to plug my "Music Video" subcategory into the root roller I should be able to do so, but it can't be a default option, cause you can't expect everyone to collect music videos.

I have no idea what MC does with Netflix, Hulu and Youtube 'cause I'm pro-quality, and streaming doesn't cut it anywhere close. But since it's important to so many other people I'd classify it as something else, not the above. The thought is that unified theory (as I understand it if anything) is good, but it should not be implemented at all costs. Local stored and cloud stored are 2 different things in my book. Some may say that the lines are blurred, I'm not one of them.

The assumptions here are that the users have audio & video collections, etc, structured with some logic and that MC can tag stuff at import time beyond file type.

Now, on a friendly note to others, I admit this is a technique mastered while using XBMC. But as shown I'd put some effort into explaining how the internal (*cough* my) logic works and how it can apply to MC, rather than point the devs to XBMC wikis. I think we referenced XBMC 50 times only in public discussions this week, and, while it is a point, it wears off if overused and I don't wanna give up that leverage :).
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JustinChase

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2011, 09:49:03 pm »

There's been a lot of discussion about this one inside the company, and we have a proposal we like quite a bit.

At the root, all types and sources of videos will be under a single item 'Video'.

Selecting 'Video' on the root roller will show a sub-roller with different types and sources.  This will include things like Movies, Television, Netflix, and a few others.  The list is customizable.

Picking a sub-roller item will show views appropriate to that type / source.  For example, picking 'Movies' will show views like Name, Recent, Year, Genre.  This list of views is also customizable.

Here are some screenshots:
http://pix01.com/gq%40B7oZ

Thanks for any feedback.



I like this idea in general, videos, with everything under that.  Please let me define my thoughts for clarity sake...

Audio: sound with no visual element (Music, Podcast, home recordings, radio, i don't really know what else)
Image: visual element with no sound (Pictures, clip art, cartoons, etc; and technically, documents)
Video: sound and visuals (movies, tv, home video, etc and technically probably power point presentations)

That it, everything falls in one of the 3 categories above.

I don't think it continues to make sense to differentiate the source, or the location (online or local; netflix or recorded TV don't really matter)

With that said, Video is the proper choice, and everything falls under that.  I would suggest

  • Movie (Netflix, Locally stored, computer DVD/Blu-Ray drive, NAT, etc all show up here)
  • Music (concert videos, music videos, extras maybe)
  • TV (Live, Recorded, Series, Netflix can show items here also)
  • Other (Home videos, Cooking, Reality, Comedy, Whatever You Want)

I would like the ability to add to this short list, should I decide for example that I want Formula 1 as a root choice

i also think it doesn't make sense to select playback/filter/splitter/etc options for containers (MKV for example), when I/you really want to specify how to playback a particular stream/codec, no matter the container it's in.  The splitter will split it out of any container and feed you a stream/codec, and you really want to specify how to handle that codec, not the MKV for example.  Perhaps it makes sense to specify the splitter and maybe the renderer (not sure here) for each container, but not for each codec.

I think it would be HUGELY helpful to have any playback filter/splitter/etc selections actually be tested on a sample (or 5) from the users library, to verify they actually build a usable graph and will work, before it can be saved.  If that testing fails, a meaningful failure message be displayed, ideally with a suggested resolution, and the ability to have it implemented for the user would be icing on the cake.

It might be easier to implement all of this in one big sweeping change than in pieces, I'm not sure, just throwing out ideas.

Many of the same things can be said for Audio and Images, but this thread is about video ;)
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Clawdeath

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2011, 10:56:57 pm »

For me, the best way to organize the videos is:

                      Movies-->(user input categories like: genre, year, actors, alphabetical order etc...)
                      TV series-->(user input categories like: genre, actors, alphabetical order etc...)-->Season (optional)
                      Anime-->(user input categories like: genre, year, alphabetical order etc...)-->Season (optional)
Videos----->     Cartoon-->(user input categories like: genre, year, alphabetical order etc...)-->Season (optional)
                      Music Videos-->Genre(optional)-->Band-->(Optional categories like album, year etc...)
                      Personal-->(user created categories like: my family, my friends, vacations, my works etc...)
                      Other-->(user created categories like: stand up comedy, theater, Holiday specials etc...)

And obviously, something that I've been requesting for sometime, all the categories inside of Videos should allow us to choose a picture to represent it without messing with the inner categories, for example: represent "my family" under "personal" with a picture of my family, represent "music videos" with a picture of a guitar or "TV series" with the picture of a Tv, and when I enter in a sub category I am able to represent it with a different picture.
It's hard to tell how it should be, because everybody will have their personal opinion on how to organize it, but I think the way I said it's pretty reasonable.
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syndromeofadown

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2011, 11:08:09 pm »

An idea...

Design a MC Directory Structure and File Name system
Give people the option to use it.
If they don't like it then they can continue to use whatever they are now.

If they want to use it then:
During auto import for video have an option to 'Use MC naming conventions to automatically tag video'
Once the option is selected, Windows folders would appear in the directory, if not already there,  called [Home videos],[Netflix],[YouTube clips]
[Ripped movies],[Ripped television series],etc
The user could then organize their videos in the folders using the subfolder naming convention you have set in place.
In the tag window the MC fields could appear first be and highlighted somehow.
Rename and move could be incorporated into the tag window.
This way the user doesn't have to manually create all the subfolders and remember them.
All that is needed is the information properly entered and MC takes care of the rest.
Any time the videos are reimported they will be named properly and organized.
Cover art is another issue.


Here is a link that explain my naming conventions and directory structures.
There's a few pictures included in a later post.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=56096.0

I only have one view that i use for videos and it works great with panes or with theatre view.
I Don't have videos from as many sources as most but it could be expanded upon to include them.
One issue i had coming up with my system was that I wanted album thumbnails. This meant grouping avi's but not discs.
Another was that I wanted to fill properties from filenames only once for all videos.
Not once for TV then once for movies, etc.
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maid

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #43 on: April 30, 2011, 03:11:48 am »

Hi, can someone tell me how to put a file in here.

I want to share my set up.

cheers
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imugli

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2011, 06:23:53 pm »

I can just see the missus asking "Why is Television now under Video?"

So just to confuse things a little more, my suggestion would be to leave Television as it is, but perhaps have the recordings listed under video as well as the TV menu.

greggjohnston

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2011, 01:34:07 am »

+1 for unified theatre view of movies (both local and streaming) I would like to at least incorporate my netflix instant queue movies with my local. This would greatly increase the SAF (Spouse Approval Factor)
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locust

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2011, 07:36:47 am »

Quote
Part of the problem is that, when we import a movie, we don't know if it's a Podcast, a TV show, a movie, a home video, or something else.  So when we build views that ask first 'Are you looking for a movie or a TV show'

While all the categories are great they limit the video..

Maybe it should work in a similar fashion of how Gmail organises email.

If you use labels instead of categories you can apply as many labels to a the video as you choose. Before I used Hotmail for email and organising email with it, meant placing email in folders and only one email can go in a folder.

Since playing around with Gmails method I realised I could never use hotmail again.

I think the same could be applied here. The only dilemma I see is if we are applying labels to the videos where would they physically be stored?? A labelling system would have to be separate to file naming.

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rick.ca

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2011, 03:58:19 pm »

Quote
I think the same could be applied here. The only dilemma I see is if we are applying labels to the videos where would they physically be stored?? A labelling system would have to be separate to file naming.

MC already has an unlimited number of "labels." They're called "fields," and you can add as many as you like. They have no bearing on where the files are stored.

The real issue is demonstrated by the diversity of ideas posted here. The developers cannot determine how each of us wants to organize video. Attempts to do so can just make the program more awkward to use. This is why we have things like a [Media Sub Type] field that determines various behaviours, but cannot be set automatically (e.g., files in the "Video\Series" folder are "TV Shows"...duh!) or configured to accept custom values. "Media sub-type guessing" attempts to help, but results in confusion when it doesn't work. All we need is a robust "auto-tagging" feature that can be used to set any field values we want based on any rules we care to use. Then we don't need any "special" (Standard or Theatre View) views—any view can be configured to include whatever we want it to include. That might be one specific media sub-type (e.g., TV shows), or more than one media type (e.g., music plus music videos).

For most users, whatever "creates" video media (i.e., recorder, ripper, downloader) can be configured to save it in folders by media sub-type. The configuration of views then does not require a [Media Sub Type] field. Rules for file display and Categories can refer directly to the folder names, providing complete flexibility over how that media is included in views. If [Media Sub Type] has been correctly set—as it would be if it was done by a configurable auto-tagging function—that would would make the configuration a little easier, but it's not essential.
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struct

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2011, 10:43:51 pm »


Although I like the idea of ultimate flexibility, and MC seems to do this most of the time, it is sometimes frustrating that there is not enough order in the chaos, or rather I seem to occasionally pay a penalty for flexibility I don't really need. 

eg. The media-subtype is a good example where movies may not show up in the default views, and we are not given any direction on how to ensure that they do turn up.  As a new user I remember this was very odd. There is some automatic guess now, but what are those rules?  I would happily put files in a specific structure if it meant they always showed up as TV, Movies etc.

Similarly I would happily order tv shows into show/season directories and put fanart of some given name in these if it meant that I could then see them in instantly in theatre view as I scrolled through, instead of the current waiting, waiting, waiting to download by which time I have moved to the next season/show.

A few rules/suggested schemes etc may not be a bad thing if we get the bells and whistles now.  If there are some means of making it configurable in the future and thus make the rules more flexible, great, but I don't think waiting for full flexibility should always stop us getting something while we wait.


Craig
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rick.ca

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Re: Unified video theory [SUGGESTIONS WANTED]
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2011, 01:25:22 am »

Quote
If there are some means of making it configurable in the future and thus make the rules more flexible, great, but I don't think waiting for full flexibility should always stop us getting something while we wait.

I've read this several times, and I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, or just expressing your own thoughts. So I'll just try to clarify my own...

Generally, I believe greater flexibility means fewer obstacles to whatever it is we want to do. That makes things simpler, not more complicated. For example, as I pointed out, since video media is likely organized in the file system by sub-type, views can be configured based on that (and other meta data)—and [Media Sub Type] is redundant. I think that approach should work now (i.e., it doesn't require any additional "flexibility"), but I have a nagging thought the program (not just a stock view configuration) might use [Media Sub Type] for something. Most of my views use that technique, but I'm not sure why I still have a [Media Sub Type] field. :-\

If the program reflected only the idea of "ultimate flexibility," the result would probably seem chaotic—especially to the new user. But much of that could be eliminated by providing working defaults. For example, an auto-tagging system would be pre-configured to recognize folders containing words like video, movie, series, etc. and filenames with consistent patterns so title, year, season, episode, etc. can be extracted. An automatic meta data system would use this information to lookup and retrieve data for stock video fields from, say, TMDb and the TVDb. Pre-configured views would then display display this information. It's not the sort of thing that could work "out-of-the-box" for everyone, but it would for most. Their experience would be MC automatically importing, recognizing and getting meta data for most video media.

Those stock configurations and views should serve as a perfect introduction to how things are done in world of ultimate flexibility. Most of that would be by way of example, rather than trying to discern some hidden magic. Someone with a folder of media not being properly imported might easily discover they're unusually named folder just needs to be included in the appropriate rule. Someone wanting to add another meta data source might configure it using the existing sources as a guide. In doing so, they might discover they can add put some or all that data in custom fields, rather than overwrite the standard fields. Similarly, they would learn how to add such fields to existing views by examining how similar fields are included in stock views.

I'm not trying to refute the contrary argument that this would be just too much for some people. Clearly, it will. Some people just don't have the time or inclination for such things. But they will probably never leave WMC (or whatever)—nor should they. While no one likes unnecessary complexity, MC is surely an application favoured by those who appreciate power and flexibility. But what could be simpler and easier to use that something that does all this automatically, and will adapt to whatever the user wants or needs? We've already seen this in the audio aspects of the program. Both the audio playback and database are a lot more "complicated" than that of most competitors, but I don't think there would be much support for making MC more like iTunes. ;)
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