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Author Topic: Switch from IE to Chromium  (Read 38571 times)

gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2011, 08:53:48 am »

It doesn't matter how they implement Chromium, all my points still apply. It doesn't matter if it is integrated or not it is susceptible to the same security issues as a full browser. Granted the number of sites may be limited, but that does not mean you are safe. MC is moving toward an agnostic view of all media including internet based ones. It is certainly reasonable that sites available in the near future will include user generated content in addition to the media. If so anyone could post a security compromise that viewers could be infected by. The fact that it is organized crime that is now responsible for most malware on computers makes anyone with money a viable target. They are getting smarter and more agile. I clean computers on a weekly basis at work (about 150 computers) eventhough we have multiple levels of mitigation to prevent infection in the first place. Those are not good odds. It is going to get worse. Having a fully patched browser is no longer just a good idea, it is a necessity. Most infections are "drive bys" these days meaning users are infected simply by visiting a site. They are accomplishing this via Ad's etc so even legitimate sites can be susceptible to this. Most of them use multiple vulnerabilities to target multiple browsers at the same time. The sheer number of computers in Bot-Nets around the globe testifies that users are not savvy enough to protect themselves...

Take this scenario for example. A user buys MC. One year later a new version of MC comes out. The user like many users of MC decides not to upgrade this time. Now their integrated Chromium browser stops getting updates. How many users do we see on the forums still using MC11 or 12? That is not a good thing. If JRiver turns MC into their own browser (which they are doing) they are taking on responsibility for keeping their users safe. Other vendors do and they continue to patch security issues in older products that are no longer the current version for several years. Is JRiver going to do that? Does anyone think that it is OK to surf the net with a browser that has not been patched for a year?

Keep in mind this would be just as big a concern if they took this approch with IE if it were possible (it's not, at least officially). Any browser integrated in this fashion is an issue.

P.S. As a side note, don't be fooled by the FUD that other vendors give you about IE having Active X. That is just the term for MS's plug ins and is no different than that feature in other browsers that use them. The fact that their plug in are COM based makes no differences security wise, it is simply a detail of implementation. Also if you track the number of vulnerabilities patched in browsers over the course of year, MS has a better record than the others. This makes sense since it was the biggest target at one point and now they others are getting more scrutiny. I'm not saying MS is safer, but the once held belief that only MS has security problems is not true. All browsers have known and unpatched vulnurabilities at all times for the last several years. The bad guys are also targeting all the top browsers as well. You would be surprised by the number of users that think they are safe simply because they don't use IE.
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glynor

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2011, 10:36:01 am »

P.S. As a side note, don't be fooled by the FUD that other vendors give you about IE having Active X. That is just the term for MS's plug ins and is no different than that feature in other browsers that use them.

This isn't quite true, though the differences are probably semantic.  ActiveX is more analogous to JavaScript and Java rolled into one, with a bit of Flash ActionScript thrown in for fun.  It is similar to the plugin architectures for other browsers, but not exactly the same thing.  Code can be downloaded and executed in the browser by simply visiting a website with an embedded ActiveX control.  This is not true for the Extension framework built into Firefox, for example, without the extension exploiting another flaw (usually JavaScript or Flash), and by default, there are only a handful of sites that are whitelisted to be allowed to install browser extensions on Firefox of any kind (we're talking 3 or 4 sites directly controlled by Mozilla).  Of course, the user can manually override this and whitelist additional sites, but it doesn't just "ask you" to run extension installers all the time when you're just browsing around the web.

JavaScript can do some amazing things, but it is terribly insecure.
Flash can do some amazing things, but it is terribly insecure.
Java can do some amazing things, and it is somewhat better than the previous things mentioned, but it still has serious security problems often.

ActiveX is the same.  It is not inherently bad.  However, there were some design decisions made (regarding privileges, mainly) that make ActiveX a bit more dangerous in some cases.  More importantly, because IE was the dominant browser player for so long, and because it is integrated into Windows, it has become a juicy target.  Security isn't about building an impenetrable fortress, which is a fools errand for a connected machine, but about limiting exposure.

ActiveX does not provide me with any user-facing features that are worth the increased risk of exposure, and the single-vendor lock-in required.  Therefore, I seek to minimize exposure.  This is for the same reason I would never run a browser without a Flash-blocking plugin installed.  Flash can be useful, from time to time, but mostly it is used for tracking and ads.  It is a high-visibility target with numerous security flaws constantly discovered.  If it was not so useful, I would absolutely remove it.  Since I cannot remove it without impacting the web's usefulness, I choose to universally disable it and only whitelist items that I need to use.  I would prefer to see Flash go away.  One less thing to worry about.  Limiting exposure.

On the other hand, JavaScript is also a huge problem.  However, running with JavaScript disabled, or in whitelist-only mode (via something like NoScript) is far too troublesome to be worth the increased security.  Too many sites use JavaScript for way too many useful things.  If you have to "expect" to constantly whitelist things to get websites to work properly, you're essentially training yourself to "always agree".  There is absolutely nothing more dangerous you can do on your computer than train users, especially unsophisticated users, to "just click agree" without thinking.  So, I take reasonable precautions (mainly, keeping my primary browsers up-to-date, since a high percentage of the security fixes from all of the browser vendors are to fix JavaScript exploitations), but I keep JavaScript enabled in my browsers.

I disable JavaScript everywhere else possible, like in PDF readers (why they have that turned on by default is a mystery, but it is evil).
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #52 on: February 25, 2011, 11:03:50 am »

Nicely said. My point was that Active X is no more insecure than plug ins in other browsers. In other words IE is not insecure because of Active X. However there are many crappy plug ins created and far too many sites try to install them. That is not a good thing and you are correct that you don't see it in other browsers that often. And sadly as you've mentioned most users just click OK any time something props up... I think we both know the in's and outs of the whole picture, but the "less wordy versions" of the facts we posted left it up to interpretation.

Also as you've stated javascript has had a lot of security problems over the years. And you also mentioned that it is not a very good browsing experience with it off. That points to the need for constant patching for that fact alone.

FYI, one thing to add to the list of dangers is Adobe Reader. That is #1 targeted buggy software right now. Be careful reading PDFs and I would shut off browser integration in FF or IE if you it. That way a PDf can't "open on it's own" inside a web page.
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glynor

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #53 on: February 25, 2011, 11:17:38 am »

Great conversation!   :)

Don't install Adobe Acrobat (reader or otherwise).  Problem solved.   ;)  I use FoxIt and keep JavaScript turned off.  The VAST majority of the PDF exploits are actually JavaScript privilege escalation flaws.

I did also want to comment on this, briefly...

Nicely said. My point was that Active X is no more insecure than plug ins in other browsers.

I don't think this is quite the case, but not in the way that most people think about security vs. insecurity.  Microsoft's ActiveX implementation is less secure than the Firefox extension framework in one important way: Because the default behavior is to "ask the user to allow" any ActiveX control it encounters, no matter what random web site you happen to be on.

Firefox does NOT do this.  It default-blocks all extension installation unless you happen to be on a whitelisted site.  The only default whitelisted sites in the current version of Firefox are two mozilla-owned domains (I had to look, it is two).  The difference is subtle, but I think it is important.

IE encounters an ActiveX control and asks the user: "Hey, there's a control.  Do you want to use this contol?"
Firefox encounters an XPI and, unless you are on one of those two domains, it says "This site tried to install an extension and we blocked it.  Do this and refresh the page if you really trust these people."

Most unsophisticated users answer yes to version 1, and ignore version 2.  Granted, IE is much better now that it co-opted the top-of-the-page style notification (which is more easily ignored than the modal pop-up dialog they used to use).

That said, I agree that there is nothing substantially worse about the security design of the ActiveX system itself, in the current implementations, that makes it any more of a risk than JavaScript or Java or Flash or any other browser extension system.  Overall, actually, I'd agree that it is inherently much slightly more robust than JavaScript or Flash.  The problem is simply that I need JavaScript and Flash.  I don't need ActiveX.

I also wanted to mention...

Granted the number of sites may be limited, but that does not mean you are safe.

You are correct.  The only way to ensure network safety is to not play the game and unplug the cord.  However, limiting exposure absolutely does make you safer.  And that is the name of the game.  Oh, and counting "raw" numbers of exploits listed in the "repositories" is a ridiculous PR game that Microsoft likes to play.  Talk about FUD.  Firefox and Chromium (and Opera) have higher raw counts because they are open source and the code is reviewed in public.  IE only gets dinged when either the exploit is independently discovered and someone talks about it, or Microsoft themselves admit it.  Severity and susceptibility to unknown zero-day exploits are much more important than trumpeting "634 is a higher number than 187".  Security via obscurity is not security at all.

Take this scenario for example. A user buys MC. One year later a new version of MC comes out. The user like many users of MC decides not to upgrade this time. Now their integrated Chromium browser stops getting updates. How many users do we see on the forums still using MC11 or 12? That is not a good thing.

I agree.  This is a concern.  Once MC16 reaches EOL, we will need a switch turned on that disables the web plugin by default, warns the user to be careful, and allows them to turn it back on manually.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2011, 02:22:53 pm »

You must work in IT too... :)

I agree MS should shut off Active X install of software by default for most sites. No argument there. This fact does make it more of a liability for sure. Even more so now. The bad guys have gotten smart and realise that most corporations don't allow admin privledges to most employees's computers. Now they create per user installs and install scareware after the user clicks OK.... But they never would do that right? :)

I agree that limiting exposure does make you safer as well. I just don't think it's that limited in MC. Right on the default page is a google search box that could take you anywhere. I've used the browser to search for images, videos etc in the past...

I agree that most people need Javascript and Flash. Flash is only really needed for video though. I just hope Google rethinks their decision to drop H264 support so we can get video fixed in the next couple of years instead of 5 years from now. Would be nice to see youtube be able to drop flash...
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rick.ca

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #55 on: February 25, 2011, 04:26:17 pm »

Quote
I agree that limiting exposure does make you safer as well. I just don't think it's that limited in MC. Right on the default page is a google search box that could take you anywhere. I've used the browser to search for images, videos etc in the past.

It's limited enough that it more than compensates for delays in security updates. There's no way I can prove that, of course. But you can't prove the contrary. And, more importantly, it seems you're still assuming the developers will not be implementing this properly. If Chrome security updates are implemented in Chromium on a timely basis, and JRiver uses common sense in deciding whether to update its implementation, then I don't see any practical difference in risk. All that's required are suitable warnings to update the software, and probably a mechanism for disabling the browser should it not be updated to whatever point JRiver deems necessary in the circumstances.
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glynor

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #56 on: February 25, 2011, 04:54:24 pm »

I agree.  This is a concern.  Once MC16 reaches EOL, we will need a switch turned on that disables the web plugin by default, warns the user to be careful, and allows them to turn it back on manually.

I was thinking... If J River implemented this really smartly, they wouldn't even really need to do that.  I do see a new JRWeb.dll file in my MC16 installation directory, which isn't in my MC15 directory (though this could have been added earlier and I wouldn't have noticed, and it is pretty small).

If the JRWeb.dll, or some other small set of files, does actually contain the chromium components they could actually set up an auto-update scheme that automatically continues updating just these components, from a separate Web Update package that your copy of MC can download from the J River servers.  So, when we're in the middle of the cycle for MC17 and MC16 is done, they can keep updating just the web core without mucking with the rest of the installation.  This would probably work for a long while, so long as the internal interface to these web components is flexible enough that you can add features without breaking the old interface.  And if the updates ever do manage to break older copies of MC (or if you just get tired of supporting the old software - support doesn't last forever) you just flip a switch and "lock" them at the last known-good version (and warn the user, and disable the web components by default).

If I were Jim?  I don't know that I'd do that for long.  You really want people to upgrade, obviously, so there is that incentive.  But more importantly, officially supporting old versions is difficult and "expensive" (it takes away from what you can be doing to improve the product for paying customers).  While MC has some browsing features available, it really isn't primarily a browser, so I don't know how big of a deal it is.

I don't know... I keep my start page turned off, and I never visit anything more than the results I get from my "links" (IMDB, AMG, and Wikipedia mostly).
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rick.ca

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #57 on: February 25, 2011, 05:35:28 pm »

Quote
I was thinking... If J River implemented this really smartly, they wouldn't even really need to do that.

I have no idea if this is feasible. But I certainly agree it would be reasonable for JRiver to support old versions while that's easy to do, and to stop doing so when it's not.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #58 on: February 25, 2011, 06:26:36 pm »

Rick,

I'm not assuming that they will do it wrong. And given the importance of the security I'm not going to assume they are going to do it correctly either. Until we hear from them I'm going to plan for the worst and hope for the best. I like JRiver, its release and development model, it's products and it's support. My comments are not critical of their actions. They are to make sure all the details are explored for this fairly major decision. I'm sure Glynor will agree with me that full disclosure is important when it comes to security. Hidden implantation details are not a good idea if there is risk involved.
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rick.ca

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #59 on: February 25, 2011, 09:35:41 pm »

That sounds like a much different position than...

I don't see how switching to another browser internally would fix anything for JRiver except temporarilly. Here are my reasons against...

Maybe you could comment on ideas for increasing the likelihood of a successful implementation. For example, what do you think of glynor's suggestion?
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #60 on: February 25, 2011, 09:50:18 pm »

It isn't differnt if you consider the fact that I thought they were talking about a shared Chrome install and not a seperate Chromium only one. A shared install put them in the same boat as with IE. From other posts and the new file Glynor mentioned it is the latter of the two JRiver is doing. Which leads to the security concerns.

As for Glynors ideas they are both excellent. I would also suggest a Chromioum version number be available under the Help->About dialog (or something) so anyone that wants to checks knows which version is being used. In addition it would be good if they posted the Chromium increments in release notes threads... That would give me the warm fuzzys about the move... :)
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rick.ca

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #61 on: February 25, 2011, 10:14:27 pm »

Quote
From other posts and the new file Glynor mentioned it is the latter of the two JRiver is doing. Which leads to the security concerns.

I probably didn't understand your original post about the two different ways of implementing Chromium. But it seems clear the extraordinary risk you're talking about is that arising from users not updating the program (and therefore the browser component) regularly. Or, if you prefer, JRiver failing to compel them to do so. That makes me feel much better. For the reasons I've stated, I believe that risk can be easily and appropriately mitigated. Do you disagree, or are you just concerned about measures like those being properly implemented?
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Magic_Randy

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #62 on: February 26, 2011, 08:41:36 am »

A dumb question but maybe someone can help me understand...

I know that MC used IE...
I know they switched to Chromium...
I know Chromium is not Chrome, and understand the difference...

But why use embedded technology at all? Why not use the browser the user sets as their default? There must be some reason, therefore my dumb question.
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HTPC4ME

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #63 on: February 26, 2011, 09:14:05 am »

great question Magic_Randy, exactly what i was thinking.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #64 on: February 26, 2011, 11:09:36 am »

To clear some things up. The risk is from users not updating MC AND JRiver not updating Chromium on a very regular basis. Both have to happen. To give you and example, if I create a browser using Chromium\Webkit\etc (it's not that hard) and only update it once in a blue moon for security patches etc would you feel safe using it? I know there isn't a security expert on the planet that would say it was OK for you to have it on your computer. That is what JRiver is doing. They are creating their own browser from the guts of another one.

Quote
For the reasons I've stated, I believe that risk can be easily and appropriately mitigated.

How likely is it that you will have a problem? That would depend on what you browse for. Since JRiver lets you go anywhere (i.e. google search on home page) that could be anything. That means that JRiver has done nothing to mitigate risk in that respect - it is up to the user not to go anywere that might be an issue. I don't think it is a good idea to let users "mitigate their own risk". Most users are their own worst enemy. Furthermore most infections recently are due to organized crime and not some pimple faced kid in their basement. They are getting smarter everyday and use all kinds of tricks including running infected ads on legitimate sites. You can't be safe by just visiting "good" sites. You need a regularly patched browser. If it isn't updated regularly most users of MC would be oblivious to the fact that they are at risk.

Quote
But why use embedded technology at all? Why not use the browser the user sets as their default? There must be some reason, therefore my dumb question.

As for the implementation questions about not using an embedded browser, JRiver uses "hooks" to interact with content on the page. They do this to create customized context menus and to "scrape" content etc. That is not possible unless the browser is embedded. It's not a dumb question at all, sometimes people who do know the details forget that others may not. In fact most people would not know that.

Please don't misunderstand my intentions here. I can tell from some of the posts that some posters may be getting a little angry with me. That always seems to be the case when browser preference is involved. This has nothing to do with that. This is a big change to the core of JRiver and I just want to make sure all the factors are considered. I'm not accusing JRiver of anything, nor am I saying they are doing it wrong. At this point they haven't publicly stated what they are going to do. I'm sure they have read and considered these points and are going to make a good decision. We'll have to wait and see what they say. In the mean time we should keep posting our concerns etc to make sure they are considered.
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Mr ChriZ

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2011, 11:57:17 am »

A dumb question but maybe someone can help me understand...

I know that MC used IE...
I know they switched to Chromium...
I know Chromium is not Chrome, and understand the difference...

But why use embedded technology at all? Why not use the browser the user sets as their default? There must be some reason, therefore my dumb question.

To add to gvanbrunts good points.

I'd guess that this is technically impossible.  I doubt there is a way to grab the renderer from the users browser of choice and place it into your application.
It would have to open the browser in a separate window which would break the integration aspects of the user experience.

I've never seen that done in another application.  I could be wrong however....

Frobozz

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #66 on: February 26, 2011, 03:37:29 pm »

I trust J River to know what they're doing.  They're smarter than me and better developers than me.

As for why an embedded browser is needed in MC.  Some of the windows/controls displayed in MC are actually web pages.  For example the Performer Store is web content and when you are looking at when you enter the Performer Store is a web page.  That's also a page that needs to be integrated within MC for the Performer Store thing to work.  You need an embedded browser control to be able to do that.  Chromium, IE, something.  Having the Performer Store open in an external browser wouldn't work, especially if you're operating MC on your TV with a remote.

Things like the links that go to Google image search, Amazon, Wiki, and other places also open web pages.  Those pages could open in an external browser, but again, if you're using MC on a TV with a remote you're going to want those browser pages to open up in MC.

There's other bits of MC that are also web/html pages and need an internal browser of some sort.

Which browser is embedded shouldn't really matter to anyone but the developers.  It doesn't matter if it's your favorite browser or not.  It just needs to display the stuff it needs to display.  Ideally the end user shouldn't even be aware of which browser is working behind the scenes.  This shouldn't be a my browser is better than your browser concern.  This isn't about being able to load your favorite greasemonkey or adblocker scripts.  None of that is relevant.

I don't care which browser is working behind the scenes inside of MC as long as it works and is secure enough that I can click on anything that might be found in a Google image search without worrying about being pwned by an exploit.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #67 on: February 26, 2011, 03:56:29 pm »

An alternative suggestion for JRiver is to use the "shared" Chrome install and "use Chromium" from there. If that is possible of course, I have not done any research in that area, but if memory serves I do remember reading about another product doing that. This has the advantage that security is in realm of the user and not Rivers concern at all. They would have to check anytime the browser is used if it is installed and display a page telling them to get Chrome etc. However this is no different than if they wish to add something that "shuts off" the browser (or warn the user) when it becomes outdated enough.

That solves the security question etc, but still leaves the possibility of a Chrome update breaking things just like IE did. In that hopefully rare case JRiver could temporarily substitute for a local copy of Chromium till the issue is resolved.

Thoughts?

Edit: That would also solve the "problem" of adding to the download size etc...
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rick.ca

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #68 on: February 26, 2011, 04:19:15 pm »

To clear some things up. The risk is from users not updating MC AND JRiver not updating Chromium on a very regular basis.

The Internet poses huge risks. Disconnecting from it reduces that risk to zero. So what? Yes, a reputable, fully patched browser reduces risk. So what? It doesn't follow that a doing anything else is an unacceptable risk. Using such a browser without firewall or virus protection would certainly be an unacceptable risk. But if reasonable firewall and virus protection will reduce that risk to an acceptable level, why would they not do so for an embedded browser? Managing risk involves making some reasonable judgments in the balancing of controls and needs. Pulling the plug isn't the answer. Maybe using IE isn't either.

So what would you recommend JRiver do to reduce the risk to an acceptable level? You post as I type...

Quote
This has the advantage that security is in realm of the user and not Rivers concern at all.

Why would JRiver seek this "advantage"? Wouldn't be a lot simpler and less a nuisance to users if it were entirely self-contained? Wouldn't updates be based on the current version of Chromium which, in turn, would include the latest critical updates to Chrome?
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Magic_Randy

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #69 on: February 26, 2011, 05:12:07 pm »

And alternative suggestion for JRiver is to use the "shared" Chrome install and "use Chromium" from there...
That was going to be my next dumb question. Could MC use the Chromium engine that sits under Chrome?
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #70 on: February 26, 2011, 07:23:11 pm »

Rick,
I'm not really sure the reason for your hostile replies. I have been nothing but polite and tried to express my concerns in a friendly and open manner. In addition I did as you requested and posted some ideas on how implement things safely instead of just expressing my concerns. Is there some reason for your reacton?
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #71 on: February 26, 2011, 08:52:02 pm »

Please ask the question again and I would be happy to answer it. Also if you could clarify how I have shifted position as I don't see how you see it that way.
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glynor

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #72 on: February 26, 2011, 10:51:50 pm »

That was going to be my next dumb question. Could MC use the Chromium engine that sits under Chrome?

That's exactly what they did.
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Magic_Randy

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2011, 08:43:01 am »

That's exactly what they did.

Does this mean that MC could read the libraries of my Chrome install to get Chromium instead of downloading it as part of the MC install?
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2011, 10:18:57 am »

Quote from: Magic_Randy
Does this mean that MC could read the libraries of my Chrome install to get Chromium instead of downloading it as part of the MC install?

Yes essentially. It is also the same thing they used to do with IE. It was a "shared install" on the computer and there was nothing they installed in MC's download to use it. The differnece is that the user can potentially remove Chrome and cripple that functionality in MC. That wasn't possible with IE. That makes it more cumbersome for JRiver to implement, but that is only short term. In the long run they won't have to constanly check and update Chromium when they produce a build. They may be able to automate that step in their workflow, so that might also be moot. It would absolve them of any responsibility to update Chromium while still having the same functionality.

On the downside it is possible that Chrome could be updated just like IE was and it would break functionality in MC. However since JRiver could use a local install of Chromium they could download and use that until a fix is available in Chrome.
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Magic_Randy

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2011, 11:56:16 am »

Yes essentially...

All very interesting. I guess we will see what direction JRiver takes.
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glynor

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2011, 12:12:49 pm »

That's exactly what they did.

I actually misunderstood what you meant by your question.  I'm not sure if they could do that, but I don't think that they should.  Because that would require you to have Chrome installed to be able to use MC, and the best market share numbers for Chrome right now are around 10%.  Installed base is certainly higher, but it is nothing like Flash or Java or other frameworks that you can rely on for basic operations.

To be clear, what they actually did is take the open source "core" of Chrome (called Chromium), and integrated it into MC itself.  You do not need to have Chrome installed, and even if you do, MC will still use it's own "version" of the browser's core (they will stay independent).
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BullishDad

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2011, 12:38:09 pm »

My question: What is different about IE9 RC that caused MC to no longer be compatible with it?  I appreciate gvanbrunt's comments about security and have to wonder if IE9 RC somehow did not like how MC was accessing the web.  I was surprised to see the solution was to use Chromium and avoid IE altogether.  This tells me JRiver could not come up with an easy fix, and couldn't anticipate that the final version of IE9 would fix the problem either.

I appreciate that JRiver quickly developed a solution, but am left wondering why this route had to be taken and is there any chance that JRiver reverts back to an IE based browser if Microsoft makes a change in the final IE9 release that would fix the problem.
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JimH

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2011, 01:24:39 pm »

My question: What is different about IE9 RC that caused MC to no longer be compatible with it?
That's a question for Microsoft.  We think it's a bug in IE9.
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brossmac

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2011, 04:43:36 pm »

While I don't know how this would work as far as security goes, I would LOVE to be able to install Chrome Extensions within the MC browser.

I have most of my links in MC open in the external browser (AllMusic, Google Images, etc.) because I hate seeing all the ads and depend on AdBlock to take care of them.  If I could do that within MC it would be great!
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Magic_Randy

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #80 on: February 27, 2011, 04:52:57 pm »

...but I don't think that they should.  Because that would require you to have Chrome installed to be able to use MC...

My guess is that technically they could do it, but you have a good point.

For me, I have multiple browsers (IE, Chrome, FF) anyway. So whatever approach they take works for me. I'm also not really worried about trusting them to keep Chromium current to mitigate security risks.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2011, 08:15:36 pm »

Quote from: BullishDad
and have to wonder if IE9 RC somehow did not like how MC was accessing the web

I would have to say it is a bug as well. Many developers that integrate IE have this problem since the RC. I don't think JRiver was doing anything wrong that caused the issue.
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Scolex

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #82 on: February 28, 2011, 01:56:42 am »

Please don't misunderstand my intentions here. I can tell from some of the posts that some posters may be getting a little angry with me.

Let me start by saying nothing you have said has made me angry and I appreciate your obviously well informed insight as it is quite apparent you know
far more than most when it comes to browser security.
I must say that parts have annoyed me a bit though, this has nothing to do with you personally, it is about society in general.
It seems that nearly all of your posts put all the responsibility on J River and I don't agree. When you go to buy a car does the sales person have to tell
you driving through a 30mph curve at 60 is dangerous and could cause bodily harm or death. If they do need to tell you then they should just take your
keys away. The internet is the same way, if you are stupid enough to browse porn, piracy, or any other questionable site on an embedded browser you
deserve what you get just for acting a fool.
My main point is we as end users need to be just as or more responsible than the provider. In general end users are not and are often quick to point the
finger even when it was their own foolish behavior that caused the mishap. Some people don't learn until it happens to them so I say let them learn. I know
that is harsh but there are times that it takes a stern outlook to make things happen.
Why do they call it common sense when it is not common?  ;)
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Sean

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #83 on: February 28, 2011, 04:25:45 am »

I do think it's highly optimistic for people to think that MS will "fix" the problem with IE on the basis that a few people (in relative terms) using a non MS product are experiencing problems with it. When did MS ever do that? It is a shame that JR cannot be complete independent of all browser engines because the chances are that this sort of thing will most likely re-occur in the future, be it IE , Chrome or A.N.Other browser.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #84 on: February 28, 2011, 08:50:09 am »

Quote from: Scolex
It seems that nearly all of your posts put all the responsibility on J River and I don't agree.

I agree 100%. I hate the fact that the society and the courts seem to thing that people are not responsible for their own actions. There are drunk drivers suing bars, etc. I don't agree with that. However the courts seem to. In the case of JRiver if they create a browser, they must do what is reasonable to keep users safe. I think that most courts would look at what other browsers vendors do and compare them to that. If it is commone practice for browser for other vendors to something, they have to as well or the run the risk of a lawsuit. I don't want this to deteriorate into discussion about the law etc, but there is the possibility of this sort of thing. JRiver might be legally responsible to that point and that is why I bring it up.

If that is the case and they are to match what the other vendors do, they must take reasonable precautions to make sure users are patched etc. This has already been covered and I'm pretty sure JRiver probably has that on their to-do list anyway. I was just showing some of the ramifications were such as users of older versions of the product etc to make sure JRiver had thought of them. It has been mentioned and now we have to wait and see what they decide to do. Either way it isn't going to affect me much as I take a lot of precautions anyway.

I do disagree with you that the only way you will get infected is by browsing porn, warez etc. It has already happened that criminals have bought ads on mainstream sites and infected thousands of users that way. The risk of infection via legitimate sites has been growing over the last two years. The only protection you have is a properly patched browser. Unfortunately that isn't enough either as they have turned to 0-day exploits (unpatched) while vendors are fixing them. That currently takes months and needs to change. The best protection is as you've said, use common sense. Also don't browse with administrative privileges. Run with a regular user account and keep the administrator account for installing software etc. It is a pain but it is what I do because I know the risks.

You are 100% correct that users need to be more responsible than vendors. They need to depend on themselves because vendors can not keep up with the threats out there. The main reason I bring all this up is that out of 150 or so computers at work we see 1 or 2 a week that are infected. Users do not have admin privileges, there are multiple levels of virus protection. Browsers and OS's are patched on a weekly basis (or more), and they are using only work related sites, etc. In addition the users are engineers etc, so they they tend to be above average in the computer use and intelligence department. Those are scary odds. 1 in 75. Until a year ago we had no infections.

At any rate, I think JRiver has heard it enough and can make up their own mind what they think is reasonable. They have the facts, lets see what they decide to to.
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glynor

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #85 on: February 28, 2011, 11:11:37 am »

The internet is the same way, if you are stupid enough to browse porn, piracy, or any other questionable site on an embedded browser you deserve what you get just for acting a fool.

Interestingly, in a recent study by Avast, they found that "regular sites" beat porn sites (and other illegitimate sites) in hosting malware.  I've personally seen very aggressive malware being served by websites like: MSNBC, AppleInsider, LifeHacker, and AnandTech.  I've read reports about similar occurrences at places like the New York Times, CNN, and the BBC, among many others.  Some of the WORST offenders are Web Forums (running on systems like Interact), personal blogs run by inexperienced website operators, and hardware OEM websites for old and discontinued products.  Most of these get infected simply through neglect, and the virus and malware makers creep in through holes in old versions of the software running on the sites.

Interestingly, in that study and many others, they found that "porn sites" in particular (especially mainstream ones that are actually selling access to the site rather than just scraping other available content), were actually substantially safer than many other "classes" of sites.  Which makes sense if you think about it... If your business is to sell access to your website for a monthly fee and keep the users coming back and paying that monthly $19.99 bill, it doesn't serve you very well to infect their machines with all sorts of nefarious malware which will only serve to make the user experience of accessing your site a poor one.

For the big-name sites, these infections almost always come from the ads.  The problem is that many of the ad networks don't monitor or filter their content very well, and the distribution systems they use are almost always easily compromised.  So, if you are a malware maker looking to infect as many machines as is possible in one fell swoop (in order to build your zombie machine botnet of destruction), it is a nice juicy target to attack these ad networks.  You get instant wide distribution, and even better your content is distributed on "legitimate sites" that many people trust, meaning that if the users get an ActiveX permission dialog (or whatever), many people will mindlessly approve it thinking that the BBC or MSNBC couldn't possibly be attacking their machine (not reading the dialog itself to look at the publisher's signature).

Crafty email phishing scams are also a common source of problems, of course.  Many users just aren't very sophisticated.  I guess all I'm pointing out is this... I think there can sometimes be in the hardcore tech community a strong "blame the dumb user" undercurrent to security discussions.  In other words, you didn't update your browser/Flash/Java/Windows/etc and you got infected, so it is "your" fault.  The car analogy is a perfect example, you don't blame Toyota if you don't know how to drive and you crash the car (well, actually that does happen, I guess).

However, the analogy breaks down completely when you look at the utter complexity of trying to update a modern Windows PC for the "average" user.  These people don't even fully understand what a "browser" is, and how it is different from "Flash" or "Java" or the operating system.  My mom doesn't fully grok the difference between "Windows" and "Office" (she calls them both "Microsoft").  How can we, as an industry, expect that user to be able to fully maintain a working and secure system when it is designed for a tinkerer and expert?  It is absurd!  Windows has dramatically improved with the modern versions of Windows Update which actually seem to work right most of the time, but even this system breaks down:  Just the other day, I discovered that one of my Win7 machines hadn't gotten any updates in MONTHS because there was some "Critical patch" to the Windows Update system itself that didn't auto-update itself like it is supposed to (for whatever reason) and which needed to be installed or all future updates were being held back.  The only reason I found it was that I happened to go into the Windows Update tool and checked for updates manually because I was looking for updated drivers for a crappy Microsoft Webcam (and I was too lazy to Google search and figured I'd just use Windows Update).

On my mom's machine, this would have sat unnoticed essentially forever.  If she didn't know me, she'd be in deep trouble.  And then we have to update Flash, and Java, and Acrobat, and our Anti-Virus, and our browsers, and so on and so forth.  Your router might need firmware updates, and now even your phone runs complex software (Flash on phones still seems like a Really Bad Idea).  Plus, they have to be able to monitor the system to make sure it is being backed up properly (with systems typically designed with a computer expert in mind).  Many of these systems remind you, but often they do it at inappropriate times when you're just trying to "get work done" (the worst are ones that only notify you at login).  And then they're often designed that if you click "OK" or "Not Now" the dialog goes away and never returns and you're expected to just remember which application needed the critical update.  It is absurd.  The DESIGN of modern computer system security is so decentralized and complex that it is effectively DESIGNED for it to fail for the average person.

Taking that same analogy, imagine if there were critical recalls on your Toyota almost every single week, that are suddenly absolutely essential to the safe operation of your vehicle.  And then imagine that these recalls were announced to you in a wide variety of different ways: some via email, some via phone, some via mail, some by the car itself, and some not at all (you're just expected to "know" to check).  And then, imagine that you can't just bring the car into the dealer to get a repair, but you have to deal with each individual component manufacturer individually, and usually install the fix yourself, with limited instructions which assume that you are a fully certified car technician.  And then imagine that all the while your car seems to be actively trying to trick you, flooding you with lying emails about fake updates and invalid security prompts and warnings that don't really apply to you.  This is the environment that most people find themselves in at home with their PCs.  It is an absurd situation, and it should surprise absolutely no one that it fails spectacularly with regularity.

So... Uneducated users are certainly a problem.  But bigger problem is that we design systems that require the users to be security experts and technicians in order to use them safely, and then we effectively require "regular people" to use these systems for their everyday life.  You honestly can't get a good job at all if you don't have some basic level of computer skills and Internet access in the West.  And that's just going to get "worse".  And then we do an amazingly poor job of educating our children about these systems.  Using a computer is probably the single most important life skill you can have before you enter the modern workforce in America.  But our schools treat computer skills as an almost extracurricular afterthought (just like we do with finances, we teach them math and basic history, but NOTHING about money at all in our schools).  Our schools are designed to teach the skills that the baby boomers needed to succeed in the world, not for the modern work world at all.
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gvanbrunt

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #86 on: February 28, 2011, 02:39:32 pm »

Wow very well said. I've read a lot on those issues and that is about the clearest I've seen it explained in terms that most users can understand.

Also I think porn sites (pay ones) spend a considerable amount of money keeping unpaying customers out, and monitor their systems constantly. So it isn't really surprising that they are not full of malware. However I think at the same time many "free porn" sites are created to lure unsuspecting customers into visiting so they can be infected. It also has the added bonus of embarrassment so many users won't tell others to be wary of the site etc. I think however that criminals have moved over to more lucrative territory via Ad's just like we mentioned...

Also interesting I think porn has been a driving force behind much that has happending on the internet. They were among the first pay sites, so they had to create monitoring and security. They had to create ways to accept money over the Internet. And they needed streaming video etc. They were doing these things long before they were mainstream.
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rick.ca

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #87 on: February 28, 2011, 04:59:23 pm »

So what has all this got to do with the topic? JRiver can't do anything to change the inherent risks. They can't be sued for not using IE. As glynor points out, failures in countermeasures can occur no matter what methods are used. Whatever JRiver does—for the sake of minimizing their corporate risk and serving their customers—needs to be reasonable in the circumstances. They may not need our help, but if there's anything to be discussed, shouldn't it be that? What's a reasonable way of ensuring the embedded browser is reasonably up-to-date wrt security measures? What reasonable measures can be taken to ensure all users' installations of MC are sufficiently up-to-date for the safe use of the embedded browser? In making these determinations, is it reasonable to assume all users have some minimum standard of effective firewall and virus protection installed?
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glynor

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #88 on: February 28, 2011, 05:08:59 pm »

So what has all this got to do with the topic?

Very little, if anything.  We're just having a conversation.  Interact has always been relatively tolerant of "drifting topics" in threads, especially longer ones.  Eventually it usually comes back around to some sort of point, peters out, or gets split off if Jim is in a particular mood that day.  ;)  ;D
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rick.ca

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #89 on: February 28, 2011, 07:09:09 pm »

I don't mind the drifting—it's all very interesting. I just thought the topic might be an interesting tangent. ::)  ;D
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BullishDad

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #90 on: February 28, 2011, 07:47:00 pm »

Thanks for the thoughtful, well written and intelligent post (#85), glynor.  I think it's relevant to the topic because once you're open to the web, it's possible to get viruses, etc.  And as I learned above, it's easier to run into trouble than I previously thought.  I'm fairly careful, but I've noticed that Bing searches off the MSN home page can lead to sites that I'd rather not visit.  It's very true that maintaining a personal computer that runs well and avoids problems is much more difficult than it should be. 
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Frobozz

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Re: Switch from IE to Chromium
« Reply #91 on: February 28, 2011, 08:59:36 pm »

I really really doubt the problems with IE9 are the fault of J River not doing things right.  I also don't understand why Microsoft released IE9 as an RC when it obviously causes problems with programs that have IE embedded as an internal browser component.  Normally an RC should be much more stable than that, especially an RC that is released as publicly as IE9.  RC means different things for different companies, and even within Microsoft I'm not sure if RC means the same thing to all groups.  But wow Microsoft.  You don't release an RC in a state like that.  If I was doing QA for IE9 and released an RC like that I'd be embarrassed (and probably fired).  You just don't do that if QA is doing their job.  And anyone doing QA for a project like IE9 should be highly competent and skilled, so frankly there is no excuse.

I am a bit curious if any of the MSDN samples for embedding IE also crash with IE9?  I'm not curious enough to make a testing environment, install IE9, and test them out.  That's too much like work.  But if any of the MSDN samples do crash there is no excuse for the QA to have missed it.  It's just too easy to add MSDN samples to a test suite and too easy to test if they crash.

If MS did need to intentionally break backwards compatibility like that for some legitimate reason they would have known that the RC would cause problems and should have publicly explained the what's and why's long before the RC release.

I don't blame J River for switching to Chromium.  I'd be a bit angry (privately I'd use stronger language than just a bit angry) at MS for that.  Having your app crash is bad for business, even if it's not your fault.
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