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[jmone]

A big Thank You to the JR Team, madshi and Hendrik's (LAV) as I think we are really really close to getting the best from out HTPC with a direct show filter setup for HD Video/Audio:
- LAVSplitter = broad support for file formats AND Blu-ray navigation (work in progress)
- LAV Audio Decoder = LPCM decoding for all file formats except DTS-MA and we have a working hack for this using the TMT filter
- FFDSHOW Video Decoder =  ? All it one and the development seems to be refining this all the time ?
- JR Audio Renderer = great DSP effects and frame rate sync
- madVR Video Renderer = great Video Rendering (and more to come)

All of this is then wrapped up in MC's media mgt!  Videophile Nirvana!

My only "outstanding feature" that I'm unsure of the dev cycle is the auto frequency change to match frame rate.  For this reason I'm still on Reclock (eg not using JR's DSP).  I "think"  Matt / madshi has plans but any insight on these would be great!

So I'm thinking that with this all coming together, the storage and playback of Blu-ray content for the HTPC will now be away from re-muxing to MKV (with transcoded Audio and Subs) to either full ISO or Blu-ray Structure saved to the HDD as this will shortly give us the ability to play back native Audio, Video and Subs with Playlist support (eg alternative ending, theatrical vs extended editions etc).  Of course this gives the JR guys more work to do on then how to stream all of this over DLNA!

I think the future is bright and not to far away!  Thanks again,
Nathan

[jmone]

One point that came up in the LAV thread on JR MC (http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=156191&page=47) is how MC does filter selection.  At present we select our filter preferences by file type NOT by the streams that it contains.  This has come up before as not ideal as something like a M2TS container can have any of the popular video or audio types.  MC already collects the information of stream type during importation and stores this info in the DB.  Is there any plans to move to a filter selection by codec over file type?

[fitbrit]

Yes, a big thanks to everyone involved in this.
I'm still bitstreaming HD audio to my receiver, using ffdhsow, and have yet to try madvr because I'm also using DXVA/CUDA acceleration.
Almost everything is working on every machine, so I'm loathe to experiment right now, but soon I will try MadVR and possible Lav splitter too.

I'd also agree about the filter selection method comments that Nathan made, but I'm one of the people who've been wanting that for a while.

[Matt]

My only "outstanding feature" that I'm unsure of the dev cycle is the auto frequency change to match frame rate.

This is on the short list.

[ThoBar]

This is on the short list.

Sometimes I wish I could see this list - but then I'd miss all the excitement of a surprise new fix / feature

Some builds it's like Christmas! (or a similar non-Christ... yada yada...)

[jmone]

This is on the short list.

Thanks Matt - Once done I can run a batch of longer tests to see how it all hangs together in the way of perceived Video Sync / Frame Drops and Adds etc.

[jmone]

This is on the short list.

Thanks - I tried use the JR Audio Renderer today on the HTPC and I got complaints that the 60hz NTSC material was all "jerky" as it was playing at 50hz (the default) - back to reclock and it was all good!

[jmone]

OK, back from Holidays and did some testing with using the following combinations:
- LAVSplitter 0.23 (as a splitter with File Source (Async) as the Source Filter)
- LAV Audio Decoder 0.23 for all audio formats except DTS-MA (using the TMT filter)
- FFDSHOW Video Decoder rev3771 Mar3 for all video formats except VC-1 (using std MS DMO filter till libavcodec support Interlaced VC-1)
- JR Audio Renderer 16.0.74 with VideoClock checked
- madVR Video Renderer v0.58 with display modes set at 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p60 (note: I'm not using 23.976 or 59.94 and it all works well).

Thanks to the addition of basic frame rate changing I've been able to test using MC's audio renderer instead of reclock across a wide range of video formats, frame rates, dimensions, containers etc:
!  Let me say that in general it works really well on my HTPC
- Good lip syc
- No visible stutter, judder, or other video glitches (and non being reported by madVR's OSD)

I've got a couple of things to work through and see if I can understand what is happening:
1) Exclusive Mode Failure (madVR):   Once I get this msg, all videos from this point on will only play in Windowed Mode until MC is closed and restarted.  Matt has mentioned that madVR may not clean up well and the end of playback in MC, so I hope this is one area that will be resolved
2) Frame Rate switching:  I still think this should be done by the player....but JR has been unusually absent in comments on this!  Anyway, as outlined in the Doom9 madVR thread, the two current issues for me is that it madVR does not return the display mode back to the default and of course it does not work with some sources (eg DVD).
3) I've got madVR Rendering issues on my non-HTPC (much more powerful box) but I think it has to do with my dual display - will have to do more testing.

Thanks
Nathan

[Mike Noe]

Nathan,
I have the same playback chain and MC settings as you except I'm using a later version of FFDshow, and I'm consistently getting the frame drop every 2-3 minutes, noticeable and reported by madVR.  What are your madVR settings for Exclusive Mode?

Also, this machine is set up as dual-mon, with the playback on the second monitor (HDTV), so maybe that is an issue to be explored as well.

[jmone]

OK - fixed the issue on my Dual Monitor setup and it all plays smoothly (bad FFDSHOW Config - FYI, I've attached the "good" one if interested)!

My madVR config is as follows:
- Display Modes: 1080p24, 1080p50, 1080p60
- Chroma Upscaling: Lanczos (3 Taps)
- Luma Upscaling: Lanczos (3 Taps)
- Luma Downscaling: SoftCubic (softnews 50)
Rendering
- General Settings:  All checked except "use managed upload textures (XP only)
- Windowed Mode: 8 backbuffers, all "don't flush"
- Exclusive Mode: "Show Seek Bar" is Checked, "delay switch to exclusive mode" & "present only one frame at a time" is UnChecked.  GPU Flush settings are: Flush, Flush & Wait (Sleep), don't flush, don't flush
- Trade Quality for Performance:  All unchecked.

I have no idea if this is a good, bad or indifferent setup - but so far so good in exclusive mode and the madVR OSD is showing after 30min is a blu-ray:
- My display is being reported running at 24.00175hz and I'm playing back a blu-ray so you would expect it to repeat a frame every 38 seconds or so. 
- Stable, full queues (eg they don't drop to 0 like I was getting on one PC which then dropped frames)
- madVR says it will drop a frame every....started at a few seconds and has been gradually increasing to around 1.5 hours)
- I did not see it but madVR said it dropped a couple of frames at around the 10 min mark, and another 3 around the 30min mark.

Thanks
Nathan

Thanks
Nathan

[jmone]

OK - I've got an odd Bug (I think it is MC).  If the Video has a TrueHD Track and the EQ is enabled in the DSP Studio the Audio Pulses/Drops in and out.  Turn off EQ and it plays fine.  I've attached a log file showing the EQ being turned on and off.

Couple of notes:
1) Only seems to happen when the source is TrueHD (yet I'm decoding to LPCM so why the DSP Studio even cares about the source format is beyond me!)
2) I've tried both LAVAudio and FFDSHOW as the decoder - no change
3) I've tired different Output Mode setting - no change
4) Other DSP Settings effect this issue, eg If I have the output format downmixing to Stereo then the problems goes away but on "Source # of Ch" or "5.1" then then it pulses away!

Thanks
Nathan

EDIT:  If I use the Arcsoft HD Audio decoder then the issue is also resolved.  It seems to be the interaction in libavcodec (as used by LAV Audio and FFDSHOW) with JR's DSP EQ code.

[jmone]

Mmm - just let Galaxy Quest BD run through from start to finish (x264, TrueHD):
- Nice that you can launch the disc from the "DVD" button and MC reports it as a Blu-ray disc
- Playback looked great, accurate lipsync and I did not notice any dropped or repeated frames
- That said, madVR OSD reported that it expected to repeat a frame each 8.30 minutes on this disk yet showed that it dropped 14 frames in seven batches over the course of the film (no delayed or presentation glitches).  Many of these reported dropped frames where in doubles or triples but the odd thing is I did not notice them.  Is it possible that the playback is smooth and madVR is reporting dropped frames that don't exist when used in conjunction with the MC Video Clock matching code ...or is it more likely I need my eyes checked? 

[raym]

Frame Rate switching:  I still think this should be done by the player....

I totall agree. For one thing, MadVR can't be used for all video types (like DVD) and is arguably not the best renderer if you have slower hardware. MC offers the "MonitorSwitch" command line function already. All we need is a way for it to automate this. Given we have VideoClock, automatic refresh changes should be handled by the player as the two features go hand-in-hand. 

[jmone]

I totall agree. For one thing, MadVR can't be used for all video types (like DVD) and is arguably not the best renderer if you have slower hardware. MC offers the "MonitorSwitch" command line function already. All we need is a way for it to automate this. Given we have VideoClock, automatic refresh changes should be handled by the player as the two features go hand-in-hand. 

I've been thinking more on this given issues with refresh rate changes post playback in some cases and after playing with reclock / madVR's versions:
- We need to be able to specify on a per PC/Monitor basis what refresh rates are supported and what refresh rates you want certian frame rates to use eg for example on my:
  - HTPC: Support 23/24/29/30/50/59/60hz so I'd like to switch to the matching fps of the media in each case
  - Other PC: Supports 50/69/60, so I'd like to switch to the matching fps or a direct multiple of the media where it can and for 24fps material to 60hz.
- When MC imports media it fires up a directshow graph to build the thumb and grabs codec info.  It would also be the perfect time to grab the frame rate info and store it in the "Playback Info" field.  This field could then be edited by the user if they did not like what was read
- When MC plays non imported media for the first time, it could still do the initial graph build to find out the info, switch display frequences, then start playback for real
- Optionally: MC could monitor the playback framerates and switch frequences on the fly.  This would be good for DVD Playback here in Oz we we tend to get the Trailers, Copyright Warnings etc in one fps and the main movie in another.  The downside I know is that some combo's of Video Cards, Drivers, Renderers, Decoders don't do so well with a refresh rate change in the middle of playback.

[Hendrik]

One thing i know about TrueHD is that its samples are extremely short - some files i tried, its individual samples are 0.8ms long - and LAV Audio does not buffer them and collect some, it just sends them out after decoding. Most other audio formats have sample lengths up to 32ms (or even longer).

Maybe the ArcSoft decoder buffers them to collect a bit more data?
Maybe these extremly short samples cause the DSP to go bananas?

Due to the very short sample size, there is actually a "significant" rounding error in the sample duration - which is basically the problem which caused TrueHD to desync in LAV Audio 0.22.
(Every sample has the duration of 8333.33333 ticks (one tic = 100ns), but of course we can only fit integers in there, so the .33333 get left behind)

Edit:
I just did some tests, and the ArcSoft decoder seems to collect at least 100 decoded samples before delivering them, bringing it up to 83ms instead of 0.833 - maybe the DSP really can't deal with such short samples?

[Hendrik]

I produced a test version of LAV Audio which will always collect PCM samples until it at least has 16ms of data, and it will additionally try to be smart to collect enough to create a sample size that has no rounding problems.

If you can try this one, and it stops the DSP from breaking, i would wager its definitely something about the very short samples or the rounding error they produce.

http://files.1f0.de/lavf/LAVAudio-0.23-pcm-buffering.zip

Note that i have updated ffmpeg since the 0.23 release, so this one needs new dlls (included)

The pcm buffer i introduced should not have any real downside (except a very minor performance hit), so if it helps i would just add it for 0.24 - although they might still want to fix the DSP in that case.

[jmone]

Looks like you have nailed it - It is now working fine with JR's DSP EQ on my main PC (will have to test on the HTPC later as we are watching a Blu-ray with your filters at present)!

[jmone]

Looks like you have nailed it - It is now working fine with JR's DSP EQ on my main PC (will have to test on the HTPC later as we are watching a Blu-ray with your filters at present)!

I can confirm that the fix works on both my PC and the HTPC with TrueHD played from both a MKV and off a Blu-ray disk - Thanks!

[jmone]

Just watched two Blu-ray launched from MC's "DVD" option in TheaterView.  Both looked and sounded great with madVR claiming it dropped 3 frames on the first movie and 1 on the second but I did not see any issues.

That said, I had issues with unwanted subs appearing:
- Wolverine --> selected Jap subs
- X Men 1 --> selected Eng subs

We are going to need the ability in MC to bring up a menu option (in TheaterView) where we can select the various streams as pulling out the keyboard is not a great option!

Thanks
Nathan

EDIT - My error - had lav splitter on FULL not FORCED subs.  The comments on Theater View Menu support however still stands!

[Matt]

One thing i know about TrueHD is that its samples are extremely short - some files i tried, its individual samples are 0.8ms long - and LAV Audio does not buffer them and collect some, it just sends them out after decoding. Most other audio formats have sample lengths up to 32ms (or even longer).

Maybe these extremly short samples cause the DSP to go bananas?

Yes, it was causing the equalizer to go bananas.  However, we've fixed it on our side as well.

The equalizer was using a multi-threaded processing approach with about 1ms of thread overhead for each call.  The overhead of using threads was much higher than any savings from using the threads, at least in this case.

In a coming build, the equalizer will automatically adjust the amount of threading to use based on the input data size.

Sorry for the trouble.

[jmone]

Matt / Nev - thanks for the quick response 

[jmone]

I'm getting some issues with JRiver Bitrate Monitor filters stuffing up the connection between LAVSplitter and LAVAudio preventing it from being loaded in some cases. Do we even need/want this filter anyway?

Filter Graph with JRiver Bitrate Filter in the chain (sound is broken = hiss and distortion)

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {A4002F8E-510F-442C-8AD3-F9C7B23FB394}
        Host:
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}

    Filter 'madVR'
        CLSID: {E1A8B82A-32CE-4B0D-BE0D-AA68C772E423}
        Host: c:\users\htpc\downloads\filters\madvr\madvr.ax
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host:
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Audio' of filter 'LAV Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}

    Filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
        CLSID: {04FE9017-F873-410E-871E-AB91661A4EF7}
        Host: c:\program files\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'madVR'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'In Text'

    Filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
        CLSID: {A4207487-E7D8-406B-9882-B66370DE2492}
        Host:
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Video' of filter 'LAV Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO

    Filter 'LAV Splitter'
        CLSID: {171252A0-8820-4AFE-9DF8-5C92B2D66B04}
        Host: c:\users\htpc\downloads\filters\lavfilters\lavsplitter.ax
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'File Source (Async.)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Stream  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_PROGRAM, Format type TIME_FORMAT_NONE
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Video'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'JRiver Media Proxy Audio'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}

    Filter 'File Source (Async.)'
        CLSID: {E436EBB5-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}
        Host: c:\windows\system32\quartz.dll
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'LAV Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Stream  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_PROGRAM, Format type TIME_FORMAT_NONEFilter Graph wiout JRiver Bitrate Filter in teh chain (all good)

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {A4002F8E-510F-442C-8AD3-F9C7B23FB394}
        Host:
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'XForm Out' of filter 'LAV Audio Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'madVR'
        CLSID: {E1A8B82A-32CE-4B0D-BE0D-AA68C772E423}
        Host: c:\users\htpc\downloads\filters\madvr\madvr.ax
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2

    Filter 'LAV Audio Decoder'
        CLSID: {E8E73B6B-4CB3-44A4-BE99-4F7BCB96E491}
        Host: c:\users\htpc\downloads\filters\lavfilters\lavaudio.ax
        Input Pin 'XForm In'
            Connected to pin 'Audio' of filter 'LAV Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}
        Output Pin 'XForm Out'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
        CLSID: {04FE9017-F873-410E-871E-AB91661A4EF7}
        Host: c:\program files\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Video' of filter 'LAV Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'madVR'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'In Text'

    Filter 'LAV Splitter'
        CLSID: {171252A0-8820-4AFE-9DF8-5C92B2D66B04}
        Host: c:\users\htpc\downloads\filters\lavfilters\lavsplitter.ax
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Output' of filter 'File Source (Async.)'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Stream  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_PROGRAM, Format type TIME_FORMAT_NONE
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_VIDEO, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'XForm In' of filter 'LAV Audio Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}

    Filter 'File Source (Async.)'
        CLSID: {E436EBB5-524F-11CE-9F53-0020AF0BA770}
        Host: c:\windows\system32\quartz.dll
        Output Pin 'Output'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'LAV Splitter'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Stream  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_MPEG2_PROGRAM, Format type TIME_FORMAT_NONE

[Mike Noe]

fwiw, I always take it out (not even sure what the bitrate monitor does or how/where it displays any info, AFAIK, it's not documented), so it's definitely not needed.

[raym]

fwiw, I always take it out (not even sure what the bitrate monitor does or how/where it displays any info, AFAIK, it's not documented), so it's definitely not needed.

Same here. I've never understood what this filter does and why it is included in the chain by default. I always remove it and can also confirm it is not needed.

[Hendrik]

jmone, your first graph doesn't have any audio decoder at all, and seems to directly deliver the audio to the Audio Renderer .. thats definitely very weird behaviour. I can see its even connecting with the LAV internal media type, which should only ever work in between LAV Splitter and LAV Audio.

Although one thing is not right at all.

Code: [Select]

Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {AFBC2343-3DCB-4047-9655-E1E62A61B1C5}
The two GUIDs should not be the same, and i don't know how they ever can be.
Actually, if they would be the same, it would not connect to LAV Audio at all (and it appears it does), so must be something weird in the graph printer.

[JimH]

I'm going to sticky this thread because I'm trying to get Blu-ray going at home.  Thanks to everyone who's made it possible.

I've downloaded AnyDVD HD and I've told MC to autoplay Blu-ray, but I've had a crash that Windows blamed on ffdshow.

[jmone]

Rock solid for me with the following:
- LAVSplitter
- LAVAudio (using the Arcsoft DTS-MA decoder)
- FFDSHOW Video (x264 set to ffmpeg-mt)
- madVR Video Renderer (display rate changing set in madVR)
- J River Audio Renderer (Video Clock on)

Filter info is as follows

Code: [Select]

Filter Graph Info:

    Filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
        CLSID: {A4002F8E-510F-442C-8AD3-F9C7B23FB394}
        Host:
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'XForm Out' of filter 'LAV Audio Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'madVR'
        CLSID: {E1A8B82A-32CE-4B0D-BE0D-AA68C772E423}
        Host: c:\users\htpc\downloads\filters\madvr\madvr.ax
        Input Pin 'Input'
            Connected to pin 'Out' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2

    Filter 'LAV Audio Decoder'
        CLSID: {E8E73B6B-4CB3-44A4-BE99-4F7BCB96E491}
        Host: c:\users\htpc\downloads\filters\lavfilters\lavaudio.ax
        Input Pin 'XForm In'
            Connected to pin 'Audio' of filter 'LAV Splitter Source'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DTS, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'XForm Out'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'JRiver Audio Renderer'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_PCM, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx

    Filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
        CLSID: {04FE9017-F873-410E-871E-AB91661A4EF7}
        Host: c:\program files\ffdshow\ffdshow.ax
        Input Pin 'In'
            Connected to pin 'Video' of filter 'LAV Splitter Source'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Out'
            Connected to pin 'Input' of filter 'madVR'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_YV12, Format type FORMAT_VideoInfo2
        Input Pin 'In Text'
            Connected to pin 'Subtitle' of filter 'LAV Splitter Source'
            Major type Unknown GUID Name: {E487EB08-6B26-4BE9-9DD3-993434D313FD}  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {04EBA53E-9330-436C-9133-553EC87031DC}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {04EBA53E-9330-436C-9133-553EC87031DC}
        Input Pin 'In Text 2'

    Filter 'LAV Splitter Source'
        CLSID: {B98D13E7-55DB-4385-A33D-09FD1BA26338}
        Host: c:\users\htpc\downloads\filters\lavfilters\lavsplitter.ax
        Output Pin 'Video'
            Connected to pin 'In' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Video  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {31435641-0000-0010-8000-00AA00389B71}, Format type FORMAT_MPEG2_VIDEO
        Output Pin 'Audio'
            Connected to pin 'XForm In' of filter 'LAV Audio Decoder'
            Major type MEDIATYPE_Audio  Sub type MEDIASUBTYPE_DTS, Format type FORMAT_WaveFormatEx
        Output Pin 'Subtitle'
            Connected to pin 'In Text' of filter 'ffdshow Video Decoder'
            Major type Unknown GUID Name: {E487EB08-6B26-4BE9-9DD3-993434D313FD}  Sub type Unknown GUID Name: {04EBA53E-9330-436C-9133-553EC87031DC}, Format type Unknown GUID Name: {04EBA53E-9330-436C-9133-553EC87031DC}

[jmone]

FYI - New version of LAVAudio is out http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?p=1500633#post1500633

Notes:

- The ability to use the ArcSoft dtsdecoder directly through LAV Audio, just drop "dtsdecoderdll.dll" in the LAV Audio directory, and lean back for full DTS-HD enjoyment. On the LAV Audio status page, the ffmpeg decoder is called "dca", and the ArcSoft decoder is called "dts" (or postfixed with the profile), so you can see if its active.

Please note: Do not ask where to get the ArcSoft decoder. If you own TMT, its in the TMT folder under Codecs. If you don't, you should buy it if you want to use their decoder. This is *NOT* the place to try to score it for free. I respect their work, and so should you.

EDIT:  The big "thing" about this is that you can now decode the full high bit rate / sample depth DTS-HD Audio track (as apposed to just the "core"). 

[JustinChase]

i asked this in the LAV thread, but I never really got a good answer, and as fast as it's moving, I don't expect I will, so I'll ask here.

nev said there are downsides to bitstreaming the HD audio to my receiver, and most seem to prefer to decode everything and send LPCM to the receiver, but I don't know what the downsides are, or why folks that can bitstream prefer not to.

Any thoughts on the downsides to bitstreaming vs decoding on the HTPC?

it seems to me that bitstreaming would be preferred, but as I think we've all seen recently, i don't really know anything about any of this

[Matt]

Bitstreaming vs PCM is a personal thing, but I'm a proponent of PCM.

To me, the computer is the ultimate decoder, processor, etc. for audio data.  Leveraging that power for video just makes sense.

JRiver has done a lot of work on this front already, and it is my hope that we just keep improving at it.

[jmone]

At some point the audio needs to be decoded (to PCM), converted to analoge (DAC), and amplified.  It's not so much an argument of what is "better" (as the output should be identical) but more where you want to apply any desired DSP features.

1) Advantage of Decoding in the HTPC:  If you want to add an DSP effect (have a look at the stuff in Player --> DSP Studio) on the PC side you need to decode not bitstream.  The main argument however is the "VideoClock" feature (Tools --> Options --> Audio for Video, DVD, & TV --> VideoClock).  Like with Reclock, VideoClock gives the ability for MC to resample the audio to keep it perfectly in time with the Video Frame presentation so that you don't get any dropped or inserted video frames.  The result is perfectly smooth presentation of the video with the audio being insync.

2) Advantage of Decoding in the Receiver:  [flame suit on] You get the little DTS, DD etc lights comming on.  [/flame suit off]

[flac.rules]

I really like the way MC16 has moved with LAV, madVR and bluray. I am slightly confused concerning some things though. I see "everyone" is using LAV audio decoder, whats the upside of this?

And in principle, should videoclock be unnecessary if you have a 24 Hz refresh rate and run a movie?

[jmone]

LAVAudio:  IMHO is the best of the decoders out there.  It uses the same decoding library as FFDSHOW but nevcairiel (the dev) is very active in releasing new versions and fixing bugs + he has added the added the several features including the ability to use the Arcsoft DTS-HD decoder (if you have it) for full DTS-HD decoding (the only filter that will do this).  LAVAudio also supports bitstreaming if that is your thing.  It also plays "nice" with his Splitter so LAVSplitter + LAVAudio is a good allround soln.

VideoClock:  During playback the Video and Audio streams use different "clocks" so they can slowly drift apart.  The VideoClock feature enables MC to resample the audio to keep it perfectly in sync with the Video playback (as apposed to the Video Renderer adding or dropping frames to keep it in sync with the audio). 

[Daydream]

2) Advantage of Decoding in the Receiver:  [flame suit on] You get the little DTS, DD etc lights comming on.  [/flame suit off]

Which is EVERYTHING! 

Let's stir this up a bit.

I'm not an expert but if anybody feels up to it, I'd like to hear about the difference in applying THX Re-Eq to a DTS-MA / Dolby THD track as opposed to applying it to LPCM. Can any receiver do it well for all formats, or just the high-end ones? DialNorm notwithstanding, is really the metadata in DTS-MA / Dolby THD useless and can be discarded at will?

And Matt will have to tell what receiver he has these days or he's biased .

LAVAudio. I think I skipped a beat across the forums. What was wrong with ffdshow to begin with, I was curious about that. LAVAudio and MC is all nice and good 'cause you have the DSP in MC handy, but if I want to use other players, ffdshow has profiles to apply EQ settings automatically depending what tracks you load. LAV audio is just a decoder, it doesn't have a mixer in it.

[jmone]

There is nothing wrong with FFDSHOW at all, and if want the DSP style effects outside on MC16 then it is probably the way to go.

You might be surpirsed to see that Matt only uses an amp!

[JustinChase]

LAVAudio:  IMHO is the best of the decoders out there.  It uses the same decoding library as FFDSHOW but nevcairiel (the dev) is very active in releasing new versions and fixing bugs + he has added the added the several features including the ability to use the Arcsoft DTS-HD decoder (if you have it) for full DTS-HD decoding (the only filter that will do this).  LAVAudio also supports bitstreaming if that is your thing.  It also plays "nice" with his Splitter so LAVSplitter + LAVAudio is a good allround soln.

VideoClock:  During playback the Video and Audio streams use different "clocks" so they can slowly drift apart.  The VideoClock feature enables MC to resample the audio to keep it perfectly in sync with the Video playback (as apposed to the Video Renderer adding or dropping frames to keep it in sync with the audio). 

thanks for the feedback/information.

My new Yamaha RX-867 doesn't show the DD or DTS lights anyway (not that I can see anyway), so if that's the big benefit, I guess I don't care.  I thought 'ease-of-use' made bitstreaming the easy choice, but it seems that's not the case.

i haven't tried to turn off bitstreaming yet (will later I think), and will dig out my TMT software to get the dll I need for decoding that, and see how that all goes for me (wish me luck )

With that said, is it expected that decoding might solve an issue I ran into recently where playing back a DVD ripped into an MKV got something reported incorrectly, and cause audio and video to gradually run out of sync?  i have/had videoclock turned on/checked, and I tried turning it off, but it didn't help.  madVR reported a different rate than media info, so someone reported it wrong somewhere, and rather than try to figure out what happened, I'm hoping decoding will "fix" the issue.

Finally, and maybe a bit unrelated, I've been ripping my blu-ray's using makemkv, but it seems that nev is getting close to being able to reading/using menu's, which will allow one to select different streams, and i think Media Center allows me to manually select the streams now, although i don't know which one is which yet.

the point is, should I find a way to copy the entire disc structure to the hard drive, in anticipation of the coming abilities.

if so, what is the best way to do that, assuming i'm going to have to decrypt at some point to make this happen?  also, I'd rather not keep all the "junk" on the disc, like the FBI warning and trailers and such.  how to find and eliminate this as part of the new 'save disc structure' plan?

[jmone]

i haven't tried to turn off bitstreaming yet (will later I think), and will dig out my TMT software to get the dll I need for decoding that, and see how that all goes for me (wish me luck )

 Good Luck but for now just try using getting LAVAudio working as a decoder over bitstreaming (you can drop the other dll in the folder at any time and the extra bits of DTS-MA get decoded without any config changes).

With that said, is it expected that decoding might solve an issue I ran into recently where playing back a DVD ripped into an MKV got something reported incorrectly, and cause audio and video to gradually run out of sync?  i have/had videoclock turned on/checked, and I tried turning it off, but it didn't help.  madVR reported a different rate than media info, so someone reported it wrong somewhere, and rather than try to figure out what happened, I'm hoping decoding will "fix" the issue.

Hard to know if it will be "fixed" as the file might just be "broken" to start with, but you never know.....  Also - Videoclock will only work if you are decoding and it resamples the audio slightly to keep it in sycn with the video (stops the odd video frames being dropped).  It does not try to fix broken sync between video and audio.

Finally, and maybe a bit unrelated, I've been ripping my blu-ray's using makemkv, but it seems that nev is getting close to being able to reading/using menu's, which will allow one to select different streams, and i think Media Center allows me to manually select the streams now, although i don't know which one is which yet.

the point is, should I find a way to copy the entire disc structure to the hard drive, in anticipation of the coming abilities.

if so, what is the best way to do that, assuming i'm going to have to decrypt at some point to make this happen?  also, I'd rather not keep all the "junk" on the disc, like the FBI warning and trailers and such.  how to find and eliminate this as part of the new 'save disc structure' plan?

I'm on the fence of what to do with this one as I normally rip encrypted ISO to the HDD.  You can then tag the ISO, mount and play them in MC (with AndyDVD HD running in the background of course).  The other option I've played with that works, is you rip to an unencrypted disc structure to the HDD.  Now you have the ability to import and tag multiple playlists (MPLS) for various endings, extras etc.  I don't care about trying to "strip" out all the other bits (disc space is cheaper than my time) but you could just then delete the M2TS files you don't want.  The other option is to run it though something like ClownBD where you can select the main title, audio track you want etc and it will rebuild you a new BD Structure with just these bits.

[JustinChase]

thanks again, I'll play with turning off bitstreaming soon (I'm SURE it will work fine )

but, another quick question (or 2), you said

you rip to an unencrypted disc structure to the HDD.

How does one do this?  with anyDVD HD?  I don't own that yet, as makeMKV has done what I needed up to this point.  Is this done with clownBD?  Or is there some other way to decrypt as you save?

[jmone]

thanks again, I'll play with turning off bitstreaming soon (I'm SURE it will work fine )

but, another quick question (or 2), you said
How does one do this?  with anyDVD HD?  I don't own that yet, as makeMKV has done what I needed up to this point.  Is this done with clownBD?  Or is there some other way to decrypt as you save?

With AnyDVDHD is a driver running in the background on your PC so that your mounted disc/iso are presented to windows allready fully decrypted so you can do what you want (eg play, copy bits, run ClownBD over etc).  AnyDVDHD also has a Rip DVD Image to HDD that will copy the entire structure to the HDD in one hit.

[JustinChase]

ah, thanks.  Might be time to purchase that useful tool

[SteveGoff]

I'm having a lot of trouble getting the settings I choose for video playback to stick, mostly having to do with the audio decoder settings. I have main audio set to WASAPI and audio for video set to RealTek HDMI. I selected LAV Splitter, ffdshow video decoder (also tried ArcSoft), and LAV Audio. But on some videos when I look at the filters it says that ffdshow audio is working, whereas if I switch to another video it shows LAV Audio working. I just finally got TrueHD to bitstream using LAV Audio, but when I tried my DTS MA test file (Baraka) it shows ffdshow audio connected and is putting out multichnnel PCM, which suggests that I'm not hearing lossless DTS MA.

So how can I get the audio decoder settings to actually stick and stay consistent?

By the way, a shortcut key for selecting audio streams would be much appreciated, especially when using Theater mode. The only wy I know to do it now is by using the mouse and right clicking. This is a major problem for Theater mode users who don't want to use a mouse.

[Mike Noe]

Probably the quickest way is to goto the FFDshow audio Decoder settings, go to Codecs, and disable TrueHD.

[SteveGoff]

Probably the quickest way is to goto the FFDshow audio Decoder settings, go to Codecs, and disable TrueHD.

Is this a response to my trouble with getting MC16 to accept LAV Audio as my audio decoder? If so, thanks! I'll try anything.

[glynor]

2) Advantage of Decoding in the Receiver:  [flame suit on] You get the little DTS, DD etc lights comming on.  [/flame suit off]

It is also much simpler if you'd prefer not to spend your life knob twiddling with esoteric lights and dials and meters that you would never understand.*

* Bonus points if you catch the reference.

[JustinChase]

It is also much simpler if you'd prefer not to spend your life knob twiddling with esoteric lights and dials and meters that you would never understand.*

* Bonus points if you catch the reference.

I have no idea, but I love "life knob" 

[SteveGoff]

Probably the quickest way is to goto the FFDshow audio Decoder settings, go to Codecs, and disable TrueHD.

It looks like a combination of this and one other thing worked, so I can now bitstream TrueHD and DTS MA while at the same time use WASAPI for audio only files. First, I could not get ffdshow audio to let go of audio decoding for MKV video, so I uninstalled ffdshow and followed the suggestion in the MKV thread to leave audio to WASAPI but change audio for video to default device (my default device being HDMI). I then got perfect bitstreaming for both DTS MA and TrueHD. But when I tried a DVD video MC immediately downloaded ffdshow to play the video and screwed my settings for MKV. Once again, I selected LAV Audio, but while playing a an MKV ffdshow audio showed up in the filter list. I still don't understand why this setting won't stick. In any event, I then disabled TrueHD decoding in ffdshow audio. This allowed me to once again bitstream both DTS MA and TrueHD. No audio decoder shows up in filters when playing DTS MA, but it works nonetheless. When playing a TrueHD LAV Audio shows up in the filters. I wish I could simply do away with ffdshow, but I need it for playing back other video formats.

Next I'll try DTS MA and TrueHD decoding using LAV Audio and the Arcsoft dll decoder, and see whether I can apply WASAPI to the resulting output. This would be the best of all possible worlds, since it would result in bit perfect decoding and WASAPI exclusive output.

[Mike Noe]

SteveGoff:

Under the FFdshow Audio codecs, disable DTS, see if that keeps it out of graph.  Also, while this shouldn't be an issue, scroll the bottom of the codecs list, what is ther setting for "Uncompressed"?

[SteveGoff]

SteveGoff:

Under the FFdshow Audio codecs, disable DTS, see if that keeps it out of graph.  Also, while this shouldn't be an issue, scroll the bottom of the codecs list, what is ther setting for "Uncompressed"?

Thanks, Mike, I'll do this tonight.

Again, a keyboard shortcut or MCWS control to change audio streams would be great for folks who use MC in theater mode and don't want to use a mouse to select the stream.

[glynor]

I have no idea, but I love "life knob" 

Hah!  That made me chuckle too. 

[SteveGoff]

SteveGoff:

Under the FFdshow Audio codecs, disable DTS, see if that keeps it out of graph.  Also, while this shouldn't be an issue, scroll the bottom of the codecs list, what is ther setting for "Uncompressed"?

I disabled DTS, and I think LAV Audio is now reliably selected. Uncompressed was disabled. I now have WASAPI audio for audio files and reliable bitstreaming for video files by setting audio for video to default windows device. This works great!