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Author Topic: This is a discussion  (Read 2584 times)

rick.ca

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This is a discussion
« on: March 16, 2011, 03:34:44 pm »

Perhaps you could think about the possibility of a solution that provides the safety and simplicity we want while preserving UI consistency you consider important.

Perhaps this has already been considered. AFAICT, the behaviour only exists in the tree. ("Pane Tagging" has to be activated before it's available.) It's perfectly consistent—Windows convention or not—with how most people would expect a tree to behave. If such behaviours are to be removed because some are afraid of them, why even bother having a tree?

If WAF is the concern, why even let her know the tree exists? If she's so techno-phobic, surely the best solution is to design a view that only includes the information she needs and works in a manner she is comfortable with. The primary views can be designed this way. Tell her those are for her, and she need not be concerned with your more complex child views or the tree.

Quote
I find that most people using PCs today do not have a sound understanding of Windows UI concepts or adequate skills in using the Windows UI.

And the best thing you can do for them is use the convention, not invent something even more difficult to learn. Making these things "safer" also makes it more difficult to do things that should be easy.
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Listener

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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2011, 05:25:11 pm »

Perhaps this has already been considered. AFAICT, the behaviour only exists in the tree. ("Pane Tagging" has to be activated before it's available.) It's perfectly consistent—Windows convention or not—with how most people would expect a tree to behave. If such behaviours are to be removed because some are afraid of them, why even bother having a tree?

Rick, you based your post on the assertion that the drag and drop tag editing behavior only occurs in the tree.  That is not my experience.  I never have Pane tagging enabled and I never change tag values by dragging in the tree.  

I use pane views with panes for Composer, Work, Artist and other tags. I use the pane area only to select files based on tag values.  I have gotten the warning dialog that MC is about the change a large number of files when I accidentally moved the mouse from a spot in a pane to another spot with the left mouse button down.   I wrote about a behavior I have experienced a number of times.

I've been using the Mac / Windows GUI since the mid 80s.  I understand the concepts and have no difficulty using that sort of interface.  However, I do occasionally make this sort of mistake where I don't fully release the left mouse button before I move the mouse.  I'd prefer that MC not punish me for such mistakes.

I'd also prefer not having to warn my wife about a behavior that might make catastrophic changes to our music library.


Until Matt wrote in this thread that there would always be a confirmation dialog before such changes, I did no know that any such safeguard would always exist.  Matt, is that true if one a single file would be changed?

If WAF is the concern, why even let her know the tree exists? If she's so techno-phobic, surely the best solution is to design a view that only includes the information she needs and works in a manner she is comfortable with. The primary views can be designed this way. Tell her those are for her, and she need not be concerned with your more complex child views or the tree.

This part of your post is quite offensive.  Most people who develop commercial software for the Windows understand that designed software so that it is accessible to ordinary PC users is a good idea.  

When you use a large, complex program like Microsoft Word or MC, it is very natural to identify the features you need and become comfortable using them. If you don't need other features, you may never investigate them.  You certainly don't have such unused features in mind as you use a program. If a mistake in using the UI exposes you to consequences because of features you were not aware of, that isn't a good result.

The problem I just described occurs in the pane area of a single view.  The presence or absence of the tree would not matter.  I use only a single level of genre specific views under audio; child views are never visible.

By the way, my wife has been using PCs for many years and managed a group of mainframe programmers in her job.  

And the best thing you can do for them is use the convention, not invent something even more difficult to learn. Making these things "safer" also makes it more difficult to do things that should be easy.

I described the functional problem I see as a user.  I did not advocate that a particular remedy was necessary.     I have learned that describing a problem before you try to decide on a solution often produces a better result that jumping to conclusions does.

That said, I'd prefer that no action in the pane area be able to change tags in my files unless pane tagging is enabled.

I'd also prefer to be able to communicate with Matt about something that I find a problem without your posting an offensive put-down based on your incomplete understanding.

Bill

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Matt

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This is a discussion
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2011, 05:38:11 pm »

Until Matt wrote in this thread that there would always be a confirmation dialog before such changes, I did no know that any such safeguard would always exist.  Matt, is that true if one a single file would be changed?

Yes, there should be a confirmation.  It has been this way for some years.

The confirmation may have a "never ask me this again" checkbox, but I think that's reasonable.  I posted above how to reset confirmation warnings.

You might test this for yourself, and report back if you still feel there is a problem.

Thanks.
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Matt Ashland, JRiver Media Center

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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2011, 06:06:54 pm »

I don't think it's possible to make changes without the program confirming the action with a dialog that explains exactly what it is doing.  Are you seeing something different?  If so, please provide details.

Until I read your post, I could not be sure that there were no circumstances in which a confirmation dialog was displayed before the tag changes were done.  Are you sure that a confirmation dialog is presented if only a single file or a few will be changed?

The first time I saw the confirmation dialog, my first reaction was of horror that a number of unwanted changes had been made.  Of course, I canceled the changes in the dialog and then checked to see if I could find any evidence of unwanted changes.  My second reaction was to even more horrified by the thought that this sort of accident had happened before without my seeing a confirmation dialog.

This is the compromise between safety and consistency, and it seems reasonable to me.

I certainly don't want you to remove the confirmation dialog.

From a high level, it's logical that dropping stuff on Aerosmith would add that stuff to my Aerosmith collection.  If the drop action is a little ambiguous or drastic like this case, it should ask (and we do).

As I explained in a reply to rick.ca, the behavior I see occurs when I move the mouse from one spot to another spot in a pane when the left mouse button depressed.  I sometime do this by accident.  I never have pane tagging enabled so why should I expect there to be any tag changes?

My conceptual model for the panes area was that of several list boxes side by side.  List box UI elements are often read-only and used to merely to select a value so that was my expectation for how the panes area would behave.  I would certainly not expect to drag one item in a list box downward to another item and see the corresponding value for objects changed from the starting value to the ending value.

No MC documentation explains in detail the conceptual model that MC embodies.  In absence of such an explanation, each user has to construct his own conceptual model.

If I have selected a bunch of files tagged with Artist="Ray Charles" and I drag the mouse pointer from "Ray Charles" to "Aerosmith" in an Artist pane, what do you think the odds are that I actually intended to change the Artist tag in those files?  In my case, it would certainly be a mistake.

You mean like use the menu at the top of the program to do stuff?  Oh wait...

What I said was that many users do not surf the menus or explore right-click menus to find a command that does what they want.  You may think that the lack of familiarity is absurd but I see it all the time.  It isn't a trivial question for MC users because the command they need might be in a number of places: the menu at the top, the big tools/option dialog, a right-click context menu, under a service in the tree, under a device in the tree or under playing now in the tree.  I've left out a few places to look. The location of a command might change from release to release of MC.  For example, library and zone commands have migrated to be under playing now.

I made it clear that I was offered an observation about the level of familiarity of PC users with the conventions of the Windows UI.  I think that observations has implications for designing PC software.  I simply offered a comment.  I did not reason from my comment to make my case about the danger of the unwanted tag changes.

Bill
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JimH

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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 06:15:52 pm »

Bill,
I'm on your side on a lot of what you say, but we can't put all commands in a single obvious place.  We've moved slowly toward a more Googlish approach.  Options has a search window, for example.  And Search on the program does interesting new things.  Try typing "zone" in the search window.

I do agree that rick.ca has a tendency to pounce on people when they don't deserve it.  WAF should probably be Job #1 more often here.

On the other hand, rick.ca has been a lot of help with questions on Interact.  As have you.

Retreating to a neutral corner now.

Jim
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rick.ca

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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 07:25:51 pm »

"Pouncing"? "Offensive"? ::)

This is a public forum. I find it offensive to be treated as if I should not be commenting on a post because it was intended for someone else. If that's the case, use a private message or email.

I was responding to the original poster's unnecessarily sarcastic remark, and...

I've commented on this problem before and received an instant dismissal.  I've been using MC for about 5 years and this UI behavior still scares me.

...the implication an obvious problem with the program is being ignored. The "problem" was one I could not reproduce from the description provided. If it's true the behaviour in question happens without a warning message, then I would readily agree there's an issue to be addressed. But it seems that's not the case. Regardless of what the specific issue is, I was able to disagree with the more general suggestion the program should not use conventional Windows behaviours.

There's also lots of opportunity to configure the program so it's easier to understand and use by a secondary user who is not as familiar with all of it's features and behaviours. But, more to the point, there seems to be a more fundamental design criteria at stake here. If things can be done to improve ease-of-use—without adversely affecting other important behaviours—that's fine. But the program should be designed primarily for the benefit and best use of the primary user. Presumably, the needs of such a user are appropriately influenced by "WAF." Please don't use the spurious argument the issue is about WAF—and others therefore have no right to comment on it or suggest solutions.
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« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 02:07:34 am »

I was responding to the original poster's unnecessarily sarcastic remark, and..

(you then quoted from my first post.)

I would have made similar remarks to the OP's when this scary behavior happened to me the first time.  The OP's remarks seem blunt but honest and very descriptive to me.

This is a public forum.  I find it offensive to be treated as if I should not be commenting on a post because it was intended for someone else. If that's the case, use a private message or email.

When you make an offensive post in a public forum, you might expect to get called on your behavior in the same public forum.

This has nothing to do with your posting in a thread where I responded to the OP's remarks.  I quoted the part of your post I found offensive.  

The "problem" was one I could not reproduce from the description provided.

If you read something and don't understand it, ask a question.  

But it seems that's not the case. Regardless of what the specific issue is, I was able to disagree with the more general suggestion the program should not use conventional Windows behaviours.

You describe the issue here as one of uniform application of Windows conventions.  I would describe the issue as one of deciding on the appropriate use of Windows conventions.  I think that most mainstream Windows applications use drag and drop functionality selectively. It is used where it seems desirable and natural and not used where it seems to be confusing and of little value.  Making those choices is part of designing successful Windows software.

I was describing UI behavior which seems scary to me as a user.  This thread started because someone else had a similar experience.  Good software design makes use of an understanding of how users see software and how they use it.  This forum gives users a way to tell JRiver what they think about how MC works now.  I've seen this input contribute to the evolution from MC 11 to MC 16.

But, more to the point, there seems to be a more fundamental design criteria at stake here. If things can be done to improve ease-of-use—without adversely affecting other important behaviours—that's fine. But the program should be designed primarily for the benefit and best use of the primary user. Presumably, the needs of such a user are appropriately influenced by "WAF." Please don't use the spurious argument the issue is about WAF—and others therefore have no right to comment on it or suggest solutions.

I think that both my concern for my own use and my concern for burdening my wife with a warning to avoid this unnecessary problem are legitimate.  

You may feel that it is not legitimate to design software to be comfortable for a casual user.  I think that JimH's post in this thread shows that he does not agree with you.

Bill

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« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 02:56:59 am »

I'm on your side on a lot of what you say, but we can't put all commands in a single obvious place. 

Thanks for your post.

I just remarked on how MC works and the distribution of commands.  I wasn't asking for any consolidation.

I hope that my posts distinguish between discussion of a functional problem and a mere comment about how things work now.

By the way, I remarked in a thread on the ComputerAudiophile.com forum that you were moving toward simplifying the network connection features in MC 16.  I think that automatic connections that extend the "start in last location" idea to network operation are a very welcome improvement.

We've moved slowly toward a more Googlish approach.  Options has a search window, for example.  And Search on the program does interesting new things.  Try typing "zone" in the search window.

I tried it.  An interesting approach.  I'll try the search mechanism for other things.

Bill
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rick.ca

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« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2011, 04:06:12 am »

This forum gives users a way to tell JRiver what they think about how MC works now.  I've seen this input contribute to the evolution from MC 11 to MC 16.

This seems to be the source of our disagreement. I'm here because I enjoy discussing ideas that might lead to improvements in the software we can all benefit from. This is a discussion forum, so I'm pretty sure my interest is not misplaced. But it seems you see the forum only as a means for you to tell JRiver what you think. That would explain a decision to be offended by comments that were not inherently offensive—other than to dare presume the matter was open for discussion. Sadly, if not for this fundamental disagreement, I'd probably be supporting you in a recommendation for a change that appropriately addresses your concern. Understandably, you're not interested in that. So I'll leave you with this...

You might test this for yourself, and report back if you still feel there is a problem.

That might get you back on track.
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JimH

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Re: This is a discussion
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 09:58:11 am »

Bill,
Is that a California wildflower? It looks familiar.  I used to belong to the Native Plant Society when I lived there in the Middle Ages.

Jim
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Re: This is a discussion
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 11:52:31 am »

Is that a California wildflower? It looks familiar. 

Yes. Lindsay's Blazing Star seen along Mine's Road south of Livermore on this trip:

http://naturelover.smugmug.com/Nature/seen-along-Mines-Road-May-2010/12371055_ikR25#884122639_oUjKc

There is a much larger flower called Giant Blazing Star that occurs on the east side of the Sierras (along hwy 395 north of Lee Vining for example.)

http://naturelover.smugmug.com/Nature/Trip-over-Tioga-Pass-and-back/Giant-Blazing-StarDSC0699/1147130858_iJTtH-X2.jpg

I used my avatar to show something I liked rather than something that represented me.

Photographing wildflowers and wildlife has been a growing interest for some years.

I'l try managing photos with MC 15/16 this summer.  (When I'm not out taking pictures.)

Is that a California wildflower? It looks familiar.  I used to belong to the Native Plant Society when I lived there in the Middle Ages.

I am on the board of the East Bay Chapter of the California Native Plant Society (as is my wife.)  We spent last weekend at a meeting of CNPS chapters.

Bill
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JimH

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Re: This is a discussion
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 09:15:31 am »

I was a borderline hippie carpenter living in the hills of Oakland in the 60's when Ronald Reagan had the National Guard protect People's Park from the people.

I used to go to the plant sale at Tilden when Jim Roof was the director of the botanic garden and I had a friend who worked at Yerba Buena Nursery off Skyline Blvd so I spent a lot of time watering.  Still do but it's in my garden now.

I had some very good friends in Lafayette, but they're long gone now.

Good times.  Thanks for the nice pictures.
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