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[Matt]

There'll be no build Wednesday, as I've got Theater View on the operating table trying to make good on a few promises.

1) Revised video layout:
http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=62141.0

2) Coherent saving of configuration so it is all stored in the library (and could be shared, etc.), it works better across language changes, etc.

3) Internal plumbing changes to allow more code sharing between Theater View and other internals


These changes will require a new data format for Theater View customization.

My plan is to require a one-time need to recreate Theater View library views.  Writing an upgrader would be difficult due to the nature of the changes and it would also subvert #1.

Are people willing to tolerate the pain of configuring views again?  Thanks.

[leezer3]

To a point 
As long as you don't break the ability to display custom icons on the main menu (These got broken at the last major Theatre View skin shift), I can reconfigure relatively easily.
Any changes you make need to be 'changeable' as well- I've got things setup exactly as I want them now, and I want to be able to remove anything added that isn't to my tastes.

So long as the icons on the main menu still work, and I can add a nice raft of custom viewschemes to the main menu, I'll probably survive.

-Leezer-

[glynor]

I'll do it.  Annoying, but not that difficult since most of mine are built from Standard Views.  One thing that would be nice, while you're at it, would be a simple way to transfer configured Theater Views back into Standard View in order to save them.  Or, a text-field based Import/Export widget like the one we have for Standard Views and Auto-Playlists.

PS. I still think it would be easier and more intuitive to just configure the Theater Views under a special part of the Standard View tree, using a special version of the regular controls, but that ship seems to have sailed.  The way it is now is fine, I guess.  I just think the dialog in Options is cluttered and limiting.

[glynor]

By the way, it is certainly not the world's biggest deal, but for next time...  An ever-so-slightly more consumer-friendly to do this, since it is going to involve resetting a big thing that is likely to be customized, would have been to finish it up before Jim announced that MC 16 was now "it".

But, I can definitely appreciate that the way you guys develop "in public" largely makes the declaration of beta/stable versions a huge gray area, so.... Meh!

[JimH]

Busted.

[Matt]

Any changes you make need to be 'changeable' as well

It will remain completely customizable.  Customization will also work across Library Server Client and library switches, which is better than what we have today.

By the way, it is certainly not the world's biggest deal, but for next time...  An ever-so-slightly more consumer-friendly to do this, since it is going to involve resetting a big thing that is likely to be customized, would have been to finish it up before Jim announced that MC 16 was now "it".

But, I can definitely appreciate that the way you guys develop "in public" largely makes the declaration of beta/stable versions a huge gray area, so.... Meh!

I know it's not great.  That's why I'm asking.

If the change will upset people too much, we will table it until v17.

If people do sign-off on it on the beta board, we could use your help covering our backs on the main board once the build goes public.

Thanks.

[raym]

If the change will upset people too much, we will table it until v17.

Let's do it! We've waited long enough

PS - I'm looking forward to what this might bring!

[ThoBar]

I like the sounds of the proposed changes.

I've been getting really frustrated by Theater View lately, these changes are a step in the right direction.

During your re-working, let me plead with you to consider the possbility of user created plugins being an option in the future. I'm not asking for it now, just hoping that it will come in the future.

FWIW, shared Theater View views will eliminate one of my frustrations (especially if they can be defined from a client).

Oh, and don't forget that "browse non-imported folders" feature we've all been bugging you about

[glynor]

If the change will upset people too much, we will table it until v17.

If people do sign-off on it on the beta board, we could use your help covering our backs on the main board once the build goes public.

It is worth it.

[struct]

This is very good news  

I for one have not done much modification/customization as it appeared to have a fair way to go before it approached the graphical nature/flexibility of xbmc etc (e.g. http://xbmc.org/skins/aeon/), at least out of the box.  I assume that with this re-plumbing you will also incorporate some of the awaiting advantages of the relational fields especially for tv series, people, etc.  For without this, it seems like plumbing is only going to solve 1/3 the recently discussed problems (the other 1/3rd being how to scrape/get the data).

That is, I hope theatre view incorporates some new views out of the box
eg.
 a list of Producers where I can get a biography, picture, awards etc
 a list of artists would do similar
 a list of tv series that has fanart, series description, release period etc
 a list of seasons for a show has fanart, season description, etc.

Although there are endless possibilities, I would hope that a basic selection of the obvious would be possible out of the box (would incorporation of People [whether they be artist, producer, directory or whatever] and Series databases cover it for the majority??)

I appreciate that I may be able to do some/most of this myself at the moment, but I think it is important JRiver sets some basic fields/examples/incorporation out of the box so that it sets some sort of standard for everyone to build around.  For example, it is not clear how information about "People" is to be incorporated into MC at the moment, I could make dummy files and cheat, but it would be much nicer if this was not required and there was an easy way to handle data not attached to a file.  I certainly don't want to build skins/views around something that will be superseded in v17.  I would hope that there would be enough incorporation that for most users there would be little need for additional relational fields.

Craig

[edit: didn't see Matt's new post http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=63799.0 which I guess is showing a start]

[rick.ca]

If people do sign-off on it on the beta board, we could use your help covering our backs on the main board once the build goes public.

I'll deal with anyone who wants to complain about having to recreate anything less than 67 views.

[skeeterfood]

Definitely go for it in v16!

[flac.rules]

I say do it, I can tolerate the pain The sooner the better IMHO.

[MrHaugen]

Let's do it! I can't wait. I think that most power users will see the benefits and not complain, and more casual or normal users of MC will not have that much custom views anyway. So I do not think there will be to much problems. I'll try to calm people down my self if there is issues

I hope this "plumbing" also takes into account the things Confishy and Struct mentions. The future with user created plugins, better (and more?) standard views, better handling of series and movies meta data etc.

[jmone]

Bring it on

[olinbg]

Definitely do this.  I'd already created the really complex views as standard ones so they can be dropped back in.

[nedam]

I may be a bit late to the party but thought I would weigh in.  I have no problem recreating my TC views but I think clarity will be key to keeping the frustration to a minimum. Insure that if a user is shocked and surprised by the change they can easily find the information they need that explains why it is that way and how they can fix it. Spending an hour trying to determine what is wrong and then finding out it is by design will make people grit their teeth and stamp their feet. Not in that fun spanky way either.

[FastKayak]

While Theater view is still on the table or perhaps in recovery but open to suggestions......

Any chance this additional out patient operation (put in v15 and then disabled) could be included in this weeks OR visit?

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=59042.msg399132#msg399132

Thanks, FastKayak/Larry

[Matt]

While Theater view is still on the table or perhaps in recovery but open to suggestions......

Any chance this additional out patient operation (put in v15 and then disabled) could be included in this weeks OR visit?

Could you summarize what you're looking for?  I thought the beer delivery meant we were done

[Matt]

Oh, and don't forget that "browse non-imported folders" feature we've all been bugging you about

This will be in the next public build.

[cncb]

How about some simple list counts in Theater View (for example, display "2 of 120" that updates as you move between items)?  File number counts displayed at the view item level would be nice too (to see how many TV recordings I have of each title or how many files in a playlist, etc.).  Sorry, I know this is loosely related to the "plumbing" but it would potentially apply to every view...

[FastKayak]

Sure I can summarize.  You created the option to fade cover art in build 15.101 and I dropped off some beer.  All is well.     I have a feature I really like and you and the other developers have a nice cold beer.  Everyone is happy.  (Not sure about Jim since I believe he was out of the office that day).  Fast forward to build 15.147 or so.  In this build you decide any picture displayed behind cover is "not worthy" (see half-way to bottom of thread http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=60432.msg408594#msg408594   ) 

Not sure about everyone else but I am not happy.  Cover art never fades and my digital picture collection is always hidden behind the cover art.  Dialog of TOOLS > OPTIONS > THEATER VIEW > THEME: DEFAULT > FADEOUT COVER ART IN PLAYING NOW DISPLAY  no longer controls whether cover art fades or not.   ?

Time passes, a few Minnesota blizzards come and go.  A long cold, wet spring almost gives us hints of a real spring when I hear rumors that Theater view is on the OR table being dissected.  I decide it might be worth bringing up old issues from version 15. 

Please put this feature back in.... you have the controls exposed  in theater view options but you have disabled their effect from v15.147 to v16.xxx. 

Thanks, FastKayak / Larry


P.S.    Do I feel ripped off for bringing over beer?  No way.  MC version whatever is a fabulous piece of software.  I and dozens/hundreds/thousands of your customers have never enjoyed anything better.  That said, my primary MC system is now frozen at 15.146 simply because I don't want to look at cover art for long while my 12k music collection plays.  I'd be glad to show you what I'm talking about if you want to stop over to my place in Bloomington (and sure, I'd have some good cold beer on hand.)   

[Matt]

Cover art never fades and my digital picture collection is always hidden behind the cover art.  Dialog of TOOLS > OPTIONS > THEATER VIEW > THEME: DEFAULT > FADEOUT COVER ART IN PLAYING NOW DISPLAY  no longer controls whether cover art fades or not.   ?

You can select the cover art and use left / right to manually hide it.

Cover art fades if there's something behind the art that's relevant to what is playing.  If the online theme finds no images (or is disabled), it's not worth hiding the cover art for what is playing to show one of a handful of stock photos.

You have a special case because you have disabled the online slideshow and created a custom theme with 100's of images.  I know this is important to you, but you may be the only user with this setup.  Hiding the art in favor of the theme images would not be good for most users.  I suppose the program could look at the number of images in the theme when deciding if theme images are worth hiding cover art for.  I'm not sure.

[)p(]

This will be in the next public build.

Another great one...cant wait for the next update

[Sheugel]

Please consider audio priority over theater view effects.
I really enjoy artist slideshow but alas it's become a frustrating experience since slowdowns in audio occur during playback of some files.
I noted it in this unpopular thread: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=63733.0

[MrHaugen]

I know this is important to you, but you may be the only user with this setup.  Hiding the art in favor of the theme images would not be good for most users.  I suppose the program could look at the number of images in the theme when deciding if theme images are worth hiding cover art for.  I'm not sure.

And this will probably be important to more and more if it's implemented a method of adding more art manually to different media types. If this will see the light of day, or if it will be the same as Themes, is another question though.

[dbalkunjr]

Yeah go ahead and get er done.  I had planned on redesigning my set up at some point anyway.

[H4CK3R]

Trust me when i say...  I will help make an impact...  For better or worse.

The team and I will try and make it as effortlessly as possible, to make it enjoyable, and customizable as ever.

PS Matt... Dinner is on YOU next time your in Vegas....


H4CK3R

[FastKayak]

While I agree I am in the minority I doubt it is only me that wants to control cover art!  For 45 builds FADEOUT COVER ART IN PLAYING NOW DISPLAY let me/everyone decide to display or fade cover art. 

It isn't really about how many files are in the folder or whether someone deems them interesting or not.  The control gave your customers a simple to way to decide and since MC ships with fade disabled then the behavior of the app has been consistent for those who don't want the fading.   

So I would suggest either re-enable the control or remove it .  From build 15.147 on it has had no effect on MC behavior.   

Thank You -  FastKayak / Larry

[drmimosa]

I use Theater View as my main interface for MC, so the continued development of this feature of the program has been great (especially the recent Neflix upgrades.)

While the changes proposed in the "Unified Video Theory" are interesting, they seem to shuffle the default views around without really adding additional functionality to the Theater View. A good layout is important, of course, but I would love to see more features of the regular program make their way into the Theater View interface.

For example, the following MC features would be great to have access to from the Theater View:  

-"Links" (aka right-click): it would be great to search Youtube links directly from the playing now menu, rather than typing in the search manually. Also the "Wiki" link would be great for artists.

-DSP and EQ: access to virtual subwoofer settings, 10-band EQ.

-Last.fm interface
 
-More Play Doctor options (change variety settings, etc.)

Many of these features would take some work to adapt to the remote control navigational format, but for an HTPC setup the more features you can acccess from "10-foot mode" the better, because you can stay on the couch and drink beer, etc.

Recent proposals by Daydream and Rick.ca to open up Theater View to user scripting and skinning have a lot of potential and sound interesting, although this seems like a major change of direction for MC in terms of programming strategy.

Thanks for your time and continued development!

[rick.ca]

Recent proposals by Daydream and Rick.ca to open up Theater View to user scripting and skinning have a lot of potential and sound interesting, although this seems like a major change of direction for MC in terms of programming strategy.

Just to clarify the idea of a "scripting engine" as a "programming strategy"...

This was suggested as a means of facilitating meta data available to users but which cannot be provided directly by JRiver without violating copyright. To be effective, a scripting engine would necessarily include all the tools necessary to configure and manage the automatic locating and downloading of meta data from any available source. This would only be a "change in programming strategy" because what little we have now (YADB, covers, Wikipedia) has been added on an ad hoc basis. I don't think that's desirable or sustainable. Even if the only scripts ever developed for such a system were a handful provided by JRiver (e.g., TVDb, TMDb, Wikipedia), these would be much easier to configure, use and maintain within such a system.

But how is this relevant to Theatre View? What you ultimately want is to start it up after a hard day's work, and see all your media with all it's meta data. That includes (for example) the TV episodes automatically recorded or downloaded the night before. There's nothing worse than having to get off the couch to do things manually in Standard View because the latest episode of your favourite TV show or it's meta data are not there. Contrary to what many dream about, that's never going to happen automatically "by default." It's only going to happen if there's a comprehensive system in place for configuring how media is to be added to the library (that probably includes at least some basic auto-tagging capability), where the meta data is to come from, when it's to be added (i.e., as the media added, or on a schedule, or both), what fields the data is to be added to and under what conditions (so data from multiple sources can be combined).

[Matt]

While I agree I am in the minority I doubt it is only me that wants to control cover art!  For 45 builds FADEOUT COVER ART IN PLAYING NOW DISPLAY let me/everyone decide to display or fade cover art. 

It isn't really about how many files are in the folder or whether someone deems them interesting or not.  The control gave your customers a simple to way to decide and since MC ships with fade disabled then the behavior of the app has been consistent for those who don't want the fading.   

So I would suggest either re-enable the control or remove it .  From build 15.147 on it has had no effect on MC behavior.   

Thank You -  FastKayak / Larry

In a coming build:
NEW: Options > Theater View > Theme > Fadeout Cover Art In Playing Now Display is a three-state option: No / Only for online media slideshow (recommended) / Always

[FastKayak]

Thank you.

FastKayak / Larry

ps   Here's to you and I getting the kayaks out on the water this year.  Lord knows we've had enough snow and rain.  I recently read about a stretch of the Mississippi river that these guys have a shuttle service on (http://www.cwoutfitting.com/).  I've got it on my summer 2011 bucket list.

[MrHaugen]

I like this changes so far. It's very close to the views I've used for years, and I also think its very close to what many new users might expect and want. This goes a long way of making Theater View a bit more friendly for newcomers. Well done!

One thing I noticed was the Default of Television on the second roller on the main menu. When I hear television I think of TV tuners. Not Series or TV Shows. But I know this is  because you've unified recordings and the TV guide. So, I have no problem renaming it and delete the Tuner stuff. Other than that, you have a view for Recently added, Series View, Genre and Season. It's the common things you might expect to find. Good!


What I love:
1. You have manged to get a good set of default views for both Series and Movies
2. The Unification of the different media types is in my opinion logical and good, for those that use the media types in the default view. Others can just delete what they don't need.
3. You automatically go to the second roller item you used last, on the main menu
4. You've added the option to remove the ALL items on EACH view independently, and it's removed on most items default. This will surely help new users and me. AMAZING! Thank you, thank you. Now, my ONLY "all" wish left, is to have an option to disable the Play all button on the first roller. It is mighty dangerous for people not used to MC.

What I don't like / Bug:
1. The mentioned "Play All" option on the first roller
2. As a result of the Love item number 3, above: You will always end up on the second roller menu item that you last played something from. This is an annoyance when you browse through more items on the second roller, and do not play anything. During my testing I played a movie, and then started checking my Series views. Each time I vent back to the main menu, I popped right back to "Movies". When you exit a view, you should always remain on the item you had selected originally.
3. Theater View still flickers when a playing item is changing. This is not looking good. I had hopes that some of this changes would fix it. But no.
A Bug(?):
4. Somehow, my second roller bars don't show up all the times, and the More, Playing now items on the top roller is sometimes missing. Is this just me? I hope so. It would be terrible to have a different setup here than the rest of the views. So, I've reset the views several times to find a pattern here:

- First time you enter Television, the first roller have the top Views and the back item. The Second roller have the views/items for the selected top view. All good.
- If you get the Full info view on one episode, and go back, everything is as normal. All good.
- If you change second roller View, enter a Series/category, everything looks good. You can go back and the items is till present on the roller. All good.
- The NEXT time you enter the Television menu item again though, the second roller is gone, no matter what view is selected on the top roller. NOT good. This is probably a bug.

[cncb]

It would be nice to be able to put a specific Playlist group to browse from anywhere in the Theater View view structure.  For example, I have a separate "root" playlist group under which are all my Photo Collections so it would be nice for this to be able to show up in the secondary roller under the "Images" main menu item.  I could then select this and browse all my Photo Collections directly instead of having to go to "Playlists" on the Home screen and navigate through all the Playlists of all media types.

[Matt]

It would be nice to be able to put a specific Playlist group to browse from anywhere in the Theater View view structure.  For example, I have a separate "root" playlist group under which are all my Photo Collections so it would be nice for this to be able to show up in the secondary roller under the "Images" main menu item.  I could then select this and browse all my Photo Collections directly instead of having to go to "Playlists" on the Home screen and navigate through all the Playlists of all media types.

We will add this to the next build.

Remember you can also make a library view that targets any playlist group, if you want to use playlists as a jumping-off point for more sophisticated browsing.